All Discussion PAGE 535

Will our pets be raptured with us? I love my little Tzh Zu. He's the sweetest loving dog. He loves every body ....I hope there's a scripture somewhere that includes our pets because if it was possible, he would be a Christian dog...

I do agree with most of what you have written David0920. However, when Jesus spoke in parables, he knew his audience (even His disciples) could not grapple with spiritual Truth, hence His sharing simple stories about life that people could understand. This type of delivery should have caused them to hunger for more (of these stories), & some in whom a glimmer of light would arise, to attend more to the Lord's deeper messages to them.

But not all Scripture are given as parables, or with hidden deeper meanings. Where verses are clearly written metaphorically, or even not understood by us because of the time & place they reference, we should approach them carefully, keeping ourselves open to the Spirit for His help. Though, when you wrote, "God did not write the Bible so that it is easy to come to truth", I would question that. True, as I wrote, some things are difficult, even to the most studied & skilled persons, but the essential Truths leading to salvation; of most historical events; & of holy living, should be easily read & discerned throughout the Bible. If not, then the Bible becomes meaningless, valueless & best to be shelved for good.

But if we're sensing some deeper hidden meaning in a Scripture, we should be careful that our other supporting Scriptures are not strained & twisted to suit our beliefs. I too have seen a lot of it here, maybe not what you're referring to, and stand amazed & distraught at what can be done to the pure Word of God.

Amen, Jesse, Amen

Dear Ruby, you are wrong about me. I have studied the Bible all of my life, starting when I was nine. I have only had a computer for about two years in which I can study many topics. I love the Scriptures. I know that God does help us to understand the Scriptures, but I am aware enough to know that our carnal nature can distort what the Spirit brings to us. I am not foolish enough to think that what I understand is 100% accurate.

But anyways, Ruby, I would appreciate if you will not evaluate me and my relationship with God and His Word so negatively. You do not know me and I do not know you. We can judge what we speak concerning the word, but not whether one is doing things rightly in their private relationship with God. Your comments about me give off an air of superiority. Even if you say you mean well, (and I believe you) how you described me was offensive.

Debbie will pray for your daughter. What is her name?

Hello Betsy. You can pick up on the Apostle Paul's narrative from verse 10. Paul is comparing what the spiritual man receives & understands to the natural (or, carnal) man's understanding. Those who have God's Spirit in them are already thinking & discerning matters of the world & eternity at a completely different level than those without His Spirit.

When we speak about spiritual things to the carnal, natural man, they can seem absurd (or, foolishness, as v14 puts it) to him. It's like we're talking nonsense to him. So in verse 15, Paul writes, 'that the spiritual person (the one indwelt & led by God's Spirit) judges (or, examines, discerns) all things (at that higher level - with the Mind of God). But the spiritual person cannot be correctly judged (discerned) by the carnal person because he has no reference at all to God, to God's Words or to God's Ways.' The spiritual person is an oddity to him & whatever he thinks of, or gives judgement about the Christian, it will likely be founded on falsehood & surmisings & not in the Truth that is hidden in the spiritual Life in Christ.

Please pray for my daughter to be healed from a stroke she had. Pray she gets a place to live and custody of her baby prayers she starts reading her Bible and her life gets straightened out.

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Revelation 13:11: of another beast. I understand this one to be representative of the False Prophet who is anti-Christ's lieutenant, if you will, speaking with the same authority & force as Satan himself. A deadly duo indeed. And we see this lieutenant again in Revelation 16:13 (all three are separate: Satan, anti-Christ, & the false prophet), Revelation 19:20 & Revelation 20:10. Yes, the dragon is Satan, but we can identify the beast & the false prophet as separate entities, coming from Satan.

And I agree with a lot of what you shared in your page 2, with the exception of course to the beast which speaks like a dragon; I don't believe this is Satan but the false prophet. And yes, it is in the first 42 months that the anti-Christ appears & causes this worldwide mayhem & God's Wrath being poured out during the second 42 months.

But our problem remains: when is the Rapture? Is it after the first 42 months, or before it? Again, my critical verses are 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9. How we understand the meaning of the 'restrainer', will most likely place us in the pre or post-trib position. Paul's readers were confused & agitated that the Day of the Lord had begun (as taught by the false teachers). Paul assured them that the 'restrainer' hadn't been removed yet, allowing the man of sin to be revealed & assume his dictatorship. But the question, 'who is he who restrains? Thank you again Jimbob for this lively & inspiring discussion; I appreciate the time you've given to it.

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I have to apologize Jimbob for what I wrote previously concerning the Revelation 13:1 beast. I should have been more attentive; I was swayed by verse 3, "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." Without checking against Scripture, my immediate thought was the head that was healed represented the anti-Christ: which of course, it doesn't - likely, Rome, his originating city.

Now giving this passage my full attention, my understanding is that the last great empire to fall was the Roman Empire (476 AD & was certainly in power at the time of this prophetical writing). And those horns & crowns represent those nations confederate with the beast. And I also agree with your comments on verses 4 to 6. And then we come to that verse that causes conflict: verse 7, "And it was given unto him (anti-Christ) to make war with the saints". Clearly, there are believers present during anti-Christ's reign. Are these all believers that are living to this point in time not yet raptured, or, believers who have come to Christ (whether from reading the Bible, by the ministry of the two witnesses, or even the work of 144,000 of Israel's tribes)? Again, we hit a fork in the road, as the post-tribulationist will understand this as all believers are still on Earth - with the Rapture not having taken place yet. But will the Rapture, any rapture, take place for these martyred saints? I don't believe there is one, just a resurrection of the dead to join Jesus in His Millennial reign on Earth.

Hi Patty, I prayed for you. I prayed that he will soften their hearts, I also invite you to pray alongside me. This may take time, but pray often about this. Jesus is with you, and even if we feel alone, know that you are not. He will never leave you, Patty. He has moved me to reply to you to let you know that. He loves you and he is with you always! You have the creator of the world in your corner, so fret not! If your parents have passed know that Gd loves them too :) I miss my grandparents every single day, but I know they are at home with Gd. Enjoy your life and live the gift Gd has given you and if these people don't change, pray for them anyway. But please don't subject yourself to an unhappy life because of others. Sometimes we have to move on and not hang on if these people are unwilling to treat you with respect, you can always pray for them as Gd calls us to love each other, but not every human is loving. People are fallible, all you can do is your best, love them and forgive them as Jesus calls us to do. But please, don't stay in abusive environment or with people who make you miserable.

Jesse:

I totally agree with you; I used a bad choice of words, all this was manifest through the faith of the operation of God when he raised Christ.

I don't think there are many who fully comprehend what really took place in the operation of his resurrection, I believe our churches have nearly completely diluted what God did for us.

I don't think most fully comprehend that as Jesus is one with the Father, we through his resurrection was made one with the Father and Son.

I don't think most fully understand when they say Christ gave his life for us, realise it means, he gave his life TO US, and his life is the Spirit of his Father.

I do believe as David said, hopefully I remember who said it, and who quoted Daniel, knowledge will increase as we approach the end of this generation. I understand a generation as what was prophesied to happen in that time period, or age. I can see knowledge increasing on this forum and I believe it will keep increasing.

God Bless YOU!

Brother, Reuben I've prayed for you. I don't know you, but God does and your message touched me. I've been there! Especially with backsliding and being attacked by evil influences at home. I have one thing, please don't ever give up on Gd, because he will never give up on you. In weakness Gd will perfect you, all you have to do is call on him and tell him your troubles. He wants to hear from you Reuben. Surrender everything to him, because in the end all we have is in his hands. He is what gives us life and free will, our loved ones and all the beautiful things you enjoy. He will give you the strength to overcome whatever is happening in life. After all he is your heavenly father and he cares deeply for you.

Jesus is looking for you and you just happening here is no mistake. Gd is waiting for you my friend, the door is always open. He is not angry, he is ever merciful and waiting with both arms open. He is your father and cares for you. Remember one thing, God thought enough of you, to create you. And the very thought of you being alive to type this is an example, of Gd's everlasting love. If he didn't want you here, you wouldn't have been. But here you are, there alone is your proof of Gd's love for you. Please don't harden your heart to him, he is standing in your corner, he's been there all along. Even though we have trouble seeing/feeling it at times. I've been there myself, and Gd has brought me through many fiery trials in my life with my health, and I'm still standing. Gd still has me here to talk to you. Right now, I invite you to pray to him, just say anything. It doesn't have to be lengthy, Gd save me, forgive me and he will because he is faithful and cannot ever lie. Also reading the bible every day will help strengthen you, even if it's just for a few minutes. You will find Gd.

The story of the prodigal son, do you know that one? No matter what God wants you to return to him. I pray this message will help you. He sacrificed his son for you.

What does it mean in I Corin. 2:15 when it says ". . .yet he himself is judged by no man.?)

Because of some of the comments I see here, I feel compelled to again state what the Bible declares regarding how we are to view and interpret the Bible.

> Christ is the author of the WHOLE Bible. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14

> the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit 2 Peter 1:21

> Christ spoke in parables (earthly stories with a spiritual meaning). But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. Mark 4:34

> We compare spiritual with spiritual. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13

The historical-grammatical method of interpretation seeks to discover the writer's intended meaning, customs of the times, and the writer's intended audience. This method, however, fails to recognize that GOD is the AUTHOR of the WHOLE Bible and that the WHOLE Bible is written for us TODAY.

Moreover, as we approach the end of the world, and the coming of the bridegroom, God is unsealing truths that have been kept sealed until the time of the end ( Daniel 12:9-10). This is spoken of in the Bible as a vision that will speak at the end and not lie ( Habakkuk 2:2-3).

God did not write the Bible so that it is easy to come to truth. Faithful Bible teachers that apply these principles can guide us in our understanding.

But THE BIBLE ALONE AND IN ITS ENTIRETY must be our ultimate authority as we compare scripture with scripture praying that God in His mercy would open our our understanding and lead us into Truth.

2 PETER 1:20

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is any private interpretation.

This is not saying it's man's own interpretation.

It's saying that single scripture; in and of itself, does not contain all the truth of prophecy, it has to be combined with other scriptures.

2 Corinthians 13:1 ...In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

God Bless YOU!

Hi GiGi,

I pray this along with you.

Amen.

GiGi:

I don't think there is but a FEW ON THIS FORUM that think THEY INTERPRET the scriptures, but rely on the SPIRIT for interpretation.

Those FEW: rely on the doctrines of their church for interpretation. I think you spend more time reading the doctrines of the church, than seeking the HIDDEN truths of scripture. How many hours every day do you spend in studying the prophesies, how are you going to understand the NEW, if you don't know what was prophesied. Without studying Ezekiel, Isaiah, Daniel, and all the others, you can't understand the third that are killed in the lake of fire in Revelation, by the brimstone (symbolic), being the word's that come out of God's mouth, just as the two edged sword (is a symbol of the words) that comes out of his mouth. God's word are JUDGEMENT, by rightfully dividing those words, we are judged by his words, and if your are judged NOW by those words, you want be judged with the WORLD:

1 Corinthians 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves (NOW by God's words), we should not be judged.

At the second resurrection (when the kingdom is back on the earth) you are either going to be a JUDGE, or your going to BE JUDGED.

Paul was one of the last to pen God's word; He SAID, after I am gone grievous wolves shall come in and deceive the church, you don't believe that those (in the church) after Paul departed; deceived, through their doctrines, the church, even though John, who wrote after Paul, wrote by the Spirit of God those word's in REVELATION, Satan, who has deceived the WHOLE WORLD.

Who is Revelation written to: THE CHURCH, the WOMAN riding the beast, with the mind of a whore, is God's CHURCH, and Christ said come out of her my people and let this mind (the word's of God) be IN YOU as it was in CHRIST JESUS.

Look at all the things Christ wrote to the seven churches to COME OUT OF.

This is written IN LOVE, I hope you take it as that.

God Bless YOU!

Hello One Eighty,

Please know that I continue to pray for you and many others on this site as well as for myself, that we will all come to know what is really true about God, His Word, and eternal plan so that we can mature in faith and worship Him truly by the Holy Spirit's guidance. I pray that we are given strength to walk in obedience and love for His will.

Ruby Lea Read,

Cindyt indeed shared some good things and has given some great advice.

As for the other thread you mentioned, that would have been me that said that, but not quite that way. I would have to go back and read that post, but I believe what I said was that God would be looking down and saying you are both wrong, not saying that neither of you have the truth.

I believe there's a difference in saying that verses saying neither of you have the truth.

Please allow me to explain why I say this, but first let me say that I am not accusing you of anything here. Since you did not remember who said it, my thoughts are that you did not recall the exact words I had used either, and that's okay.

But here's how my pea brain sees it:

Every believer who has been born of Gods Spirit has the truth. We all have the truth. There is not a single born-again believer that doesn't have the truth.

But what is the truth? Is it what I say? Is it what any of us say? I hope you might agree with me when I say that truth has nothing to do with what I or anyone else here says. And dare I even say that truth is not the mere words written in the pages of a book? And before anyone takes this the wrong way, I am in no way discrediting Gods written word.

But you see, truth to me not what we say. Truth to me is a person and that person is Jesus Christ. Jesus tells us in John 14:6 that He is the way, He is the truth, and He is the life.

So again, I would say that we all have the truth, and that truth is Jesus Christ Himself who lives in all those who have been born of His Spirit.

I just wanted to clarify what I had said in the other post you mentioned. Thank you for hearing me out!

Chris p.2 to finish. In Gen.3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. Here we see that the serpent which is the dragon, also called Satan, and the devil was called one of the beast of the field in Gen.3:1. And the beast that comes up out of the earth has two horns like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon, this is the dragon. When Satan is cast to the earth in Rev.12:7-9 (7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, (8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. (9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out INTO THE EARTH, and his angels were cast out with him. (The devil, satan, that old serpent, the dragon is cast out ((into the earth)) The beast who doeth great wonders, and causes the earth and them that dwell therein to worship the first beast, this second beast who looks like a lamb but speaks as a dragon is the dragon. Satan will enter into, or possess the son of perdition, the first beast who is the antichrist just like he ((entered into)) Judas Iscariot. I think the 1st beast in Rev.13 is the antichrist. The 2nd beast is the dragon who will possess the antichrist and give him power over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. I think this time period will be great tribulation where he will force all to take the mark of the beast, he makes war with the saints. I think this 1st beast is the one who kills the two witnesses so the two witnesses time period would have to be the first 3 1/2 years, then the beast is given power to continue forty and two months, 3 1/2 years which will be great tribulation. I would really like to here what you think of this Chris? Thank you again, I really do appreciate you responding.

Hello Ruby,

I am not sure why you have asked me the question you did in this post. I don't really have a sure idea about the woman on the beast, to be honest. So, until I am more sure, I don't care to comment.

Concerning the consistent refutation and rejection of Gnosticism in the church, I believe this is one they got right. Gnosticism in the early church times saw the spirit as good and the flesh as evil, so they could not believe that Jesus actually took on flesh to save us. And so they believed that one is saved by receiving "higher knowledge" (gnosis) not from the Scriptures, but from spiritual experiences.

1 John 4:3 says that those who say that Jesus did not come in a flesh and blood body is antichrist.

The church over the centuries have consistently attested that Jesus is the only Savior. This is also correct.

The church over the centuries have consistently believed that Jesus was born of a virgin and conceived by the Holy Spirit, and that is correct according to Scriptures, too.

I could go on and on, but these few can demonstrate my point. I have more trust in the witness of the church concerning how to interpret the Bible that those who believe that they themselves can interpret by themselves alone the meaning of Scriptures, supposedly by the Holy Spirit. The heart is deceptive. That is why we need the witness of others.

For the record, I do not take the opinion of another concerning their own private interpretation of Scripture as valid on face value. I usually find that those who denounce the witness of the church over the centuries believe many false ideas about what Scripture means.

But thank you for responding. I always appreciate that.

Chris I really do appreciate you responding, this has been a very fruitful conversation for me. It is good to get another view on things, it gets one thinking and more importantly reading and studying the Word of God. Thank you Chris! With your last comment you said, if I understood it correctly You don't think the beast in Rev.13:1 is the antichrist? I think it is, see what you think of this? The beast who kills the two witnesses in Rev.11:7, this verse tells us the beast ascendeth out of the bottomless pit. The word (bottomless)#12; it means depthless, i.e. (specifically) (infernal) abyss, deep (bottomless) pit, (by implying) the sea. ((by implying THE SEA) Rev.13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up (out of the sea) having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. In v.2 the dragon gives him his power, and his seat and great authority. v.4 tells us the dragon gave him power again, and says they worshipped the dragon and they worshipped the beast. How would that be possible? v.5 Tells us the beast is given power to (continue) forty and two months, which as you know Chris is 3 1/2 years. v.6. He opens his mouth in blasphemy against God. v.7 He makes war against the saints, and to overcome them, (this will be the time of the mark of the beast, the great tribulation) and power was given him over ALL kindreds, and tongues and nations. (The one world leader who's main objective will be to kill Christians. v8. Tells us everybody on earth will worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb. Satan will possess the antichrist when he given him his power. The beast in Rev.13:11 that comes UP OUT OF THE EARTH, and has two horns like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon? Is the dragon, he heals the deadly wound the antichrist receives, and he does great wonders, he makes fire come down from heaven. Almost finished but out of space, see p.2 (he comes UP OUT OF THE EARTH)

Cindyt:

Your are SO RIGHT, believe on Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved: your saved from DEATH; but it is a far cry from SIMPLE; Jesus is THE WORD(s) and that means to be brought to TRUTH, you have to believe ALL those WORDS, not just some of those WORDS, he is calling out a priesthood, to serve in the kingdom, and judge in the kingdom, if you don't repent and believe his WORD(S) you will not be a part of that priesthood.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever shall break one of THESE LEAST COMMANDMENTS (all God's words are COMMANDS(ments)), and teach man to do so, he shall be called LEAST in the kingdom of God (not condemned to hell, as the doctrine of man teaches); But whosoever shall do and teach them (these least commandment), the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

There are hundreds of denominations of Churches, each one thinks they alone have the TRUTH.

In one or the threads, either Chris, Jesse, or SSpencer SAID, when we are discussing scriptures, each one in that discussion thinks he has TRUTH, all the while Christ is sitting back laughing, and saying neither of you have the truth.

That is the TRUTH, if we would only AGREE with God, he is TRUTH, and until we are married to him at the death of this body, being totally in his presence, and his presents is TRUTH, we WILL NOT be all TRUTH, but we will be given enough truth to OVERCOME, and win the race.

God Bless YOU!

Hi GiGi,

I would venture to say there are ideas in Gnosticism which have commonality with most religious faiths, including Christianity. Yet, i'm not an authority on this type of study. I'm confident that you have better understanding regarding this than I or most of us on this site, at the present time.

My goal is to pursue, understand and have the Vision of Christ, realizing I can only obtain this by listening to the Voice for God whether it be through Jesus or my brothers and sisters whom God created. Honestly, it matters not to me what symbol others want to pin on my thought system. My only concern is that it evolves into perfect love for my Heavenly Father, Jesus, my self and you. I've realized for myself that if it expresses fear, hate, harm, any form of unforgiveness, condemnation, damnation, guilt, etc.,

then it obscures the light, peace and love in which I was created for such purpose. Not one poor soul will convince me that my Creator created me and you for any other purpose or that there is anything that exists or doesn't exist that can usurp His power to keep any of us safe. These are the words He silently, peacefully and ever so patiently speaks to my mind. I am no longer afraid of God, as I was for most of my days on this earth. I'm at the point where I can no longer deny His call to teach only Love. I still stumble, but I'm learning of my free will to allow Him to pick me up. I would have never before thought how easy that would become for a child who was wandering in such deep darkness and depression. It just keeps getting better.

Peace,

GOD IS

Giannis,

You are awesome! Thank you so much for sharing this with me. I have not spent much time yet trying to learn modern Greek. Koine Greek was what I was taught. I was given a copy of the Textus Receptus in the Greek class I took. The Professor teaching the class handed a copy to everyone in the class (22 of us in the class). Someone spent a good bit buying these for the whole class. It wasn't the Professor who bought them. He said that someone in the class bought them but didn't want to be recognized. But we were all blessed with a copy. I have learned to read it, still not knowing every word, but as time goes by, my understanding increases little by little. I would like to spend some time learning modern Greek and I do hope that when that time comes, and Lord willing, if we are both still here, you might be able to help me out with questions I might have. You have always been gracious and kind that way, so I trust that would be okay?

I think we both agree that the Greek brings out so much more than what we get from our English bibles. Like Hebrew, English is a very general language where words can have multiple meanings. But Greek is probably the most exact language there is. It is very difficult to come up with multiple meanings as to what the text is saying.

I am going to take what you sent me and perhaps I may add some books to my library.

Again, I do thank you. God Bless!!!

it actually says ".......as with a woman.....but does not clearly point to women with women ----- why?

Hi Jesse

About your question which grk Bible I use, I mainly use the Bible written by Neophytos Vamvas, an Orthodox bishop and dean of the Department of Philisophy of University of Athens, published in 1851. It is written in an old grk idiom which is close to Koine grk and most probably you will understand it. He uses the Received Text for NT and the Masoretic Text for OT. Here this Bible is the one that all born again christian churches use. On the other hand the Orthodox church formaly uses the so called Patriarchal (or Byzantine or majority) text for NT (it is the text they have been using since their foundation in the 4th centuary), it is very close to the R.T. Also they use the Septuagint for OT, including all the apocrypha which they consider as canonical.

So when I want to clarify some things I use some Bibles that are written in today's spoken grk. Below I am giving you a few titles.

1. The "New Testament" published by the Hellenic Bible Society. Authors N. Vellas, Ev. Antoniades, A. Alivizatos, G. Konidiaris - profesors of Theology of University of Athens and University of Thessaloniki, the two main institutions that offer studies in Theology here in Greece. (Patr. Text).

2. The "Holly Scripture" (in grk "Agia Graphe"), published also by the HBS., Authors N. Vellas (OT from the Masoretic) and P. Vasiliades, I. Galanes, G. Galitis, I. Karavidopoulos (NT from the Patriarchal) - also all of them profesors of Theology in Athens and Thessaloniki.

3. The "Holly Scripture" by S. Philos (it is Vamvas' Bible in mod. spoken grk)

Also many e-Bibles mainly from the Orthodox church.

Also interpretations, not direct translations, like:

NT. and O.T by I. Kolitsaras and NT by P. Trempelas also profesors. of University of Athens (Patr. Text and Septuagint).

And many more. Some of them are word by word and some are freely written for better understanding. I don't think Jesse that you will understand those but it a good chance for you to learn mod. grk. Good luck. GBU

Dear Linda. Below is the story in the Bible about one man's question about how to be saved:

Paul and Silas's jailer asked them in ACTS 16:30 ..."Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" Their answer was as simple as this in ACTS 16:31 ..."Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved..." Simple as that.

Linda, you must believe in your heart and you will be saved. Simple as that. Take hold of that and trust God to show you the way to live in daily devotions: prayer, singing, reading and studying the Bible, and in doing for others. Seek out your pastor or a strong Christian that you trust to mentor you. Read the Gospel of John which concerns the deity of Christ. Study the Word to grow from a simple understanding of the Word (the milk) so that one day you will understand the harder things (meat).

1 Peter 2:2 "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:"

1 Corinthians 3:2 "I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able."

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Though there is no mention of the anti-Christ in this chapter, it is understood that he has already been revealed & is raining his terror on any who disobey him (as in Revelation 13:4-8). But when God's Wrath is poured on Earth's inhabitants, the anti-Christ's days are also numbered ( Revelation 19:17-21).

And finally, 1 Corinthians 15:52, "at the last trump". I realize that it is commonly understood that the reference is to the last trumpet sounding in Revelation 15:20-19 & some others even connecting this phrase to the last of the trumpet blasts at the Jewish Feast of Trumpets (i.e. after all the trumpet blasts of various types/sounds are made, the final (LAST) long blast is sounded at the end). And yet, the 1 Corinthians 15:52 rendering in Greek, shows it as, 'the trumpet after which no other will sound'. It might then be that it isn't the seventh trumpet sound by the angel being referred to in Revelation 15, but it is at the final trumpet blast from the series of the other angelic blasts throughout that time of God's Wrath poured out. We might never come to a consensus on that one.

Anyway Jimbob, those are my thoughts: some in agreement with what you read in the Word, some not. There are several possibilities in all that we have presented & all these have value, but ultimately, it's where are understanding lies concerning the Church's departure to be with the Lord Jesus. Each person, holding their various Tribulation/Rapture positions, can certainly find Scriptures to support their belief; I wonder whether the Lord places great value on our exercises in studying the Word, but to leave the final interpretation & outcome to Him, He Who has all the right answers. Thank you again Jimbob.

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I agree with you Jimbob, on 2 Thessalonians 2:8, that those verses refer to the Anti-Christ. As well as your Revelation 19:19,20 reference to the beast (= antichrist) & his connection to the false prophet.

Then you referenced Revelation 11:7 to this beast (the anti-Christ). But Revelation chapter 11 speaks of the two witnesses prophesying on Earth for 1,260 days (or 3.5 years), which is the one half of the Great Tribulation period (whether the first or second half?). These witnesses are killed after their work is done by the beast that comes out of the bottomless pit (v7). Can this beast be the anti-Christ, who would actually still be on Earth during that time of the witnesses, or reference to the different manifestations of the 'beast'. And out of interest, when checking on this 'beast' classification, we find that it can also apply to the anti-Christ spirit (as in Revelation 13:1), i.e. that spirit that is found in the nations representing the "ten horns". But the dragon (Satan) gave power to the beast (13:4). Without expanding this passage, we can see that this beast isn't the anti-Christ, because verses 11 to 18 show this second beast arising from the Earth (not the sea), clearly doing the work of THE anti-Christ.

Then further into Revelation chapter 11: as you wrote, the two witnesses are taken into heaven (though there's no mention of anyone else going with them). And as we know, the Rapture events surround the Lord's physical appearing in the clouds & the raptured go to be with Him in the clouds; not so with the Witnesses - Jesus is not present - they ascend into Heaven. As well, if the two witnesses satisfy the verse, "he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way", then I feel that would be in the wrong time frame. According to Revelation 11:7, the beast ascends out of the bottomless pit & is the one who kills the witnesses.