In part 1 you gave me Luke 1:17 and stated, "This means that another part of John's ministry was to teach Hebrews to clean their heart by preaching them to obey God's commandments. I would have to disagree with you on that.
No one could keep the law therefore it couldn't make you clean. Acts 15:5-10. Romans 8:3. Galatians 3:10-14.
You also referred me to Luke 3:7-18. Notice vs 9) "And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire. They couldn't bare fruit! Israel was a degenerate vine.
Jeremiah 2:20-21. Matthew 21:42-44. In contrast to that Jesus is the genuine vine. John 15:1-2.
John was preparing the way for someone to do what the Law couldn't do. and that's Christ.
John's baptism was to turn the Jews "The lost sheep of Israel" to Christ and yet he says there comes one who will give a baptism that exceeds his that brings us to Jesus.
Now John says he must decrease, and Jesus must Increase. Now we have the beginning of Jesus ministry in which he came for the lost sheep of Israel. Due to blindness, they denied there king so as Paul says salvation has come to the Gentiles. That brings us to Pentecost. Here's a predominantly mostly if not all Jewish beginning of the Church. Here is where baptism of the Holyspirit begins and this is where the Spirit of God baptize Jews and Gentiles into the body of Christ and water baptism is a ritual way for you to display what the Spirit of God has already done once you TRULY believed.
So, the obedience is for you to show by display who and what you believe in. It's the faith of Christ that initiates your belief which leads to Salvation.
Matthew 13:19-23. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
The Holyspirit spirit reveals the truth of God and takes the truth and seal it.
Also;
John 16:12-15. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Here in John 16:30-32 we have a picture of the disciples belief shattered after Jesus was crucified.
I believe where we got off track is we're forgetting to mention an important aspect of the topic.
The Church!
John was the forerunner for Christ. He came to the Jews to prepare them.
The kingdom was at hand.
John performed the baptism of repentance.
The jews rejected their Messiah.
That brings us to Pentecost ( The birth of the Church. )
Then as Paul says in Romans, Salvation went to the Gentiles.
This is where the function of the Holyspirit is different from the way it moved people before the resurrection.
Hebrews 8:8-13.
In the old and new testament it takes the Spirit of God to save a soul.
We were giving the difference between new testament water baptism and baptism of the Holyspirit.
Only one puts Jews and Gentiles in the body of Christ and only one saves reveals and seals.
CONCLUSION.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. Hebrews 8:10-11.
So Paul makes a strange question to them, doesn't he? Shall I assume again that Paul means that one always has just a knowledge about Christ then get w/baptised and then get born again? As I said I have never heard anybody teaching such a thing.
Question. Why does Paul ask them if they had received the Holly Spirit? How would they know? Unless there is an external sign that manifests the presence of the Holly Spirit, how could one know that they had received the Holly Spirit? Note that Paul didn't ask them if they just BELIEVED that they had received it, but if they had ACTUALLY received it.
Lets assume your are right about people in Samaria. So how about the apostles? Weren't they born again before Pentecost? But Jesus called them clean during the last supper i.e. in John 13:10.
When Peter preached to the Jews on Pentecost he said at the end, Acts 2:38, "..., Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.". Shall I assume that Peter said to people to just have a knowledge about Christ then get water baptised and then get born again? Hard to believe. I don't think there is any christian church of any denomination that teaches such a sequence of salvation.
Question. What is baptism? In Colossians 2:12 says "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.".
Also in Romans 6:3-7, "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: ..."
So the baptism among other is symbolic for the burial of our old sinful man and the subsequent erection of the new man. But we bury something that is dead not alive. Baptism has to come after the death of the old man, not before.
Lets go to that incident that Paul met those disciples in Ephessus.( Acts 18:1-7). He asks them if they received the Spirit after they believed? Strange question, isn't it? He also asumes that they were water baptised, because he asks tthem in what name they were baptised. (since they told him that they had never heard of the Holly Spirit, he wonders how come they had never heard of it since we are baprised in the name of the Father, the Son and HTE HOLLY SPIRIT). So Paul assumed in the begining that they were also w/baptised.
Brother Giannis. I've been following your conversation with bro S. Spencer but wanted just to clarify your quote of Acts 19:1-7.
I don't read this passage as you have shared. I learn that Paul found certain disciples (12 of them) in Ephesus & was keen to find out if they had received the Holy Ghost (i.e. whether they had a re-birth experience). Their answer was that 'they hadn't even heard of the Holy Ghost, let alone receive Him'. So Paul questions them further as to their water baptism experience. And then the Truth comes out: they only received John's baptism, just like all the others who did so as a result of John's preaching. These, fortunately, were among those who believed that there was a coming Savior & so were His followers from afar, but that's all that happened to them. They might have been awaiting more news & more inspiration as to what to do next, not knowing the implications of Christ's death, even if they were aware of it.
Paul then, by the Lord's appointment to be at Ephesus I'm sure, told them that their baptism they received was only of repentance & pointing them to Jesus (which John came to do). But "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." This statement assumes that Paul preached to these disciples about the Cross & the Resurrection, and of faith in Jesus for their salvation. They never knew all this about the Jesus that they had heard about from John - they were only at the point of wanting to believe but had nothing else & no one else to instruct them. They then received the Christian baptism, with Paul laying on of hands to receive the Holy Ghost. As bro S. Spencer has shared, re-birth can only occur when the Holy Spirit enters into a repentant believing person, because it is HE alone Who does this work, brings about a change in life & direction. Jesus' 12 disciples weren't born again until the Pentecost experience; they were just followers who loved Jesus but not yet filled & empowered.
When that eunuch believed and got w/baptised by Philipp nothing seems to had happened as in Ephessus. Neither in Samaria before the apostles coming by. When Cornelius and his friends believed the Holly Spirit came with tongues, similarly in Ephessus. Why? Nothing seems to have happened to Paul himself when he himself believed and got saved. So sometimes something happens and other times nothing happens. Why? Because they are separate events. When Paul wants to mention new birth in his epistles he just writes "reborn" or similar expressions. When he wants to mention the baptism of the Holly Spirit he clearly writes that, He distinguishes between them.
Personally as far as you are concerned do you know (not just believe) that you are baptised in the Holly Spirit. And if you say yes, then how do you know that?
Hiya Giannis....I think its by faith that we know we have been impregnated by his good seed the living word...Our whole spritual make up changes when we are with Child of the H.G...Thats when we have the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen...Nobody can see what we have in the spirit....But we can feel the Child moving in our spirit...which is the H.G. That Child of promise...At first its just an infant spirit that cannot speak...and sorrows have filled our hearts b/c of his Words as Jesus said....When a woman is in travail she has sorrows but after the Child comes her sorrows are turned into Joy...Whosoever receiveth one such child in my name receiveth ME....And it was b/c of his words which are his seeds they were impregnated by his Voice.....Thats y Peter was saying being bornagain by an incorruptible seed even by the words of God that liveth and abideth for ever....But there has to be a time of gestation spritually speaking...From the time he breathe on them sowing the good seed (his breath his word) to the time of Pentecost when the H.G. CAME IT WAS LIKE 50 DAYS....A time of sorrows that was turned into a time of joy....But thats what faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen....A spritual pregnancy...gbu
As for me, my confidence in my salvation, with the reception of the Holy Spirit, is because of, not only the total life-change He has brought me (if you only knew of my life before salvation), but also His direction of my mind & spirit towards to the things of God, my resolve to please & worship Him alone, & the confidence that my salvation is secure & rests on nothing else but His unmerited favor towards me & His precious Word. As well, in my ministry experience, I've seen the Spirit of God work in wonderful ways, both in me & before my eyes, which would be too long & unapplicable here. These things I've mentioned here cannot happen to those who haven't been gripped by God's Love, changed inwardly, & have God's Power by His Spirit working within. I may not speak in other tongues or have other manifestations that some believers look for as evidence, but the knowledge & experience of God working in me & before me is my perennial testimony of His indwelling Presence in my life. That's just a brief testimony I share with you, because you've asked. Every blessing brother.
Cornelious and his own people got Spirit baptised before getting water baptised. Paul was also baptised in water after he was baptised in Spirit. So it actually seems that baptism in Spirit may occur before or after water baptism.
But definitely after believing, with the exception of Cornelius where it seems that believing and baptism occured at the same time. So Spirit baptism may occur simultaneously with new birth but also after new birth. Why? Because they are different things.
But definitely it can not occur before new birth. There is a verse in Galatians 4:6, "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." Here it says that God sends His Spirit to people because as it says, you are sons ALREADY, not because you will become sons in the future.
Finally we see that during that early age ALL believers were baptised in God's Spirit. The apostles urged people to receive the Spirit. That is shown in Samaria where with no delay at all the apostles went there to lay hands on believers, it is shown in Ephessus where the very first question Paul asked those disciples was if they had received the Spirit AFTER they believed, it is shown in Paul himself when he received the Spirit as soon as he saw again etc. So in the ancient times there was an urgency that all believers should be Spirit baptised. That is why in all the epistles the apostles wrote they talk to people who are Spirit baptised. But this is not the case with many of today's christians who assume they have the Spirit dwelling in them just because they are tought it is so but it actually isn't so.
Chris, would you ever think of starting asking God in your prayer to give you His Spirit with an external manifestation? What would you think if you started talking in unknown languages? Would you then believe me that it is so? I know I can not convince you that I am right but God can certainly do that.
b. It is true, Christians today might be taught that they have the Spirit indwelling them & they willingly accept it, but that's only theoretical belief. A true believer cannot live his new life in Christ based only on a teaching given by someone - there must be a manifestation inwardly (a change) & outwardly (a new life revealed); because the Holy Spirit is never idle - He will point to Jesus & grow the Life of Christ in the believer. I can't see how this special mysterious work can be done outside of a person - it must be from the inside. Hence, my belief that those who have the indwelling Spirit, been sealed & secured by Him, can never depart from the faith - they will never desire it nor be persuaded by any other, even under persecution, to leave Christ - the Spirit won't allow it because the new birth is just that: a new life formed in you which can't be denied nor extinguished. Yes, he might slip up along the journey, but the Spirit will always bring him back in brokenness & repentance; the erring believer will be uncomfortable with sin & increasingly so, so that there remains no other avenue but to repent & seek forgiveness.
And that is how we must all learn about obedience, godliness, & walking in step with the Spirit. Is this too narrow a view? I don't believe that the Spirit of God works in any other way in His Church, His people. Under the OT economy (pre-crucifixion), the Spirit's Work was different & applicable to the need, whether through prophets, kings, laymen, even gentile monarchs, but to indwell a person to inwardly change the life, mind & heart, is reserved only for those who are truly in Christ.
But I can see that those under the Spirit's outside influence, whether to bring to repentance, to join with other believers, even to manifest some apparent godly traits, can be deceiving to others - but God makes no mistakes about those who have been given His Spirit. Blessings.
Thank you bro Giannis for your lengthy response. If I might address some of your points.
a. John 3:3-6. "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". If my Gk Lexicon is correct, the rendering is that 'a man is born out of/out from water and out of/out from the Spirit' ('ek'). In both references to the water & the Spirit, we see that one has to make a new appearance: the first which represents the physical birth (since this whole discussion with Nicodemus is about these two births), & the second, the spiritual birth. In neither of these births, the babe has any control or power. In the physical, the natural laws of human birth must take place, as also in the spiritual, the natural working of the Holy Spirit must take place to produce a new child/creation.
And there must be evidence of that work; Nicodemus could only understand it in the natural sphere, but in the spiritual sphere, the Spirit's Presence & Working must be seen, or else it is false. Therefore, I can understand the Spirit working through the Gospel preached by man & by the Word that is read, to minister to an unbeliever, but when a person turns to Christ & is born again, the Holy Spirit must indwell him & reside permanently ("Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his", Romans 8:9) - a very telling verse, leaving no room for misunderstanding. I could never perceive that the one who is in Christ can ever be one without the Holy Spirit residing within - it simply goes against the reason & working of the Spirit. So when you write, "So the Spirit works in the heart of a born again person, although He may not dwell in them", this is something that I simply cannot understand in light of the Scriptures, because re-birth is always from an inward dwelling, not an outward influence. See Page 2.
Tongues on Pentecost, in the case of Cornelius, in Ephessus. In Samaria although the text doesn't reveal anything about external signs, Simon the sorcerer must had seen something happening, otherwise he wouldn't try to bribe the apostles. He saw or heard something. ...?...
THE WAY NEW BIRTH AND SPIRIT BAPTISM OCCUR
1. New Birth
Going back to that discussion Jesus said that new birth occurs by the "water" and the "Spirit'. Now about the Spirit it is clear it means God's Spirit. Water?
Ephessians 6:26, "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,"
Peter 1:23, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."
Also James 1:18, "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."
So when one hears the living Word of God, that Word produces repentance in their heart and desire for a new clean life with Jesus, then next the Spirit of God regenerates their heart.
2. Spirit Baptism.
On Pentecost during praying.
In Cornelious' case when hearing the Word of God. This is the only case that matches with the way new birth occurs.
In Samaria when the apostles laid hands on believers. Similarly in Ephessus. Similarly in Paul himself.
In Luke 11:11-13, "...if ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?". So when we ask God in prayers to baptize us in His Spirit.
WHEN?
When Peter preached to Jews on Pentecost He clearly places Spirit Baptism after believing and getting water baptised, Acts 2:38, "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Also verse 41 says that all of them got water baptised afterwards.
Thank you for your response. I will make some comments and leave this subject, unless you would like us to keep on.
Firstly I can not accept the idea that things used to be otherwise in the early times of the church than nowadays. In such a case the Bible does not serve as a ruler to compare things with the Truth of God's Word. In the case that things change anybody can claim anything and nobody can check if something is right or not. This is not to offend you but it is something I firmly believe.
I do accept the change in your life. In John 1416-18, Jesus said to His disciples, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for HE DWELTH WITH YOU, and shall be in you.". That is how the apostles were clean. It was the Spirit who worked in them, although it didn't dwell IN them, He actually dwelt WITH them. So the Spirit works in the heart of a born again person, although He may not dwell in them.
But lets take it from the begining
EXTERNAL MANIFESTATION OF NEW BIRTH AND SPIRIT BAPTISM
1. New Birth
In that famous discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus, Jesus explained how new birth occurs, John 3:5-8, "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
Jesus said that we can not know how new birth occurs, there is nothing to show that a person is saved, not any external sign but only their life (this doesn't mean that one can not leave their good course later on)
This is my understanding of the re-birth experience - when the Holy Spirit comes in to reside, the life must change completely & irrevocably - if that doesn't happen (& the person will know it, if truthful), then that re-birth claim is spurious, thus giving way to many deceived but 'religious' persons in the Church.
Acts 19:1-7. I've understood those disciples to be ones of Jesus, not John (sorry if I misled you in this). We know that Jesus had many disciples, not just the twelve ( Luke 6:13; Luke 10:1), so these twelve in Ephesus may well be counted amongst those who believed that Jesus was the Messiah & attended to Him whenever they could. The disciples that Paul met were only baptized by John (not in his name but by him, hence called John's baptism). They never heard of the Holy Spirit, because under John's baptism, that wasn't necessary - they received his baptism pointing towards repentance & the Savior. And why should they be baptized first & then receive the Holy Spirit? In this formation of the Church, we do read of the Holy Spirit being given after the laying on of hands (here in Acts 19:6; Acts 8:13-17), so evidently, water baptism can precede reception of the Holy Spirit in those days. So, at that time, they seemed to be separate events, but today the Holy Spirit is received by true repentance & faith in Christ ( Romans 10:9,10). As Paul stated, salvation comes by confession & believing - and in my understanding, salvation can only happen by the Work of the Holy Spirit within the person. Onto Page 3.
Thanks bro Giannis for your comments. Just looking at our comments overall, I think that our understanding of the terms used differ. As in "clean" ( John 13:10,11); how should we understand that word? Was Jesus referring to their absolute purity or the state of their heart towards Him & learning from Him? I doubt if the disciples were sinless, so I would lean towards to their state of heart. And of course, one amongst them had a heart of hypocrisy, ongoing sin, & eventual betrayal.
I don't consider the Last Supper event as their First Communion (as we know it). They met simply to participate in the Passover, as all good, law-abiding Jews would do. But Jesus took that opportunity to then point the Passover to Himself as the Lamb Who would be slaughtered & His Blood shed. From the meal on the table, Jesus extracted the bread & the cup to pointedly show them the manner of His Death & its meaning, & for their future remembrance of this very sad yet great event. Should the disciples have been Christians (saved) to participate in the Passover? Or, could they not baptize others, even as John did? Or even preach to others & give healing from demons & sicknesses? In all these occasions as you have highlighted, the disciples were with Jesus or sent with power to do the work. They received His direction & empowerment to accomplish these tasks, yet remained ordinary unsaved men. Without Jesus, they were miserable, faithless, powerless men - but they were learning - being discipled. But when Jesus returned to His Father, His Promise was that they would not be left alone, but receive "power from on high". And should we even mention of what these disciples became when the Holy Spirit came upon them and in them? They were born again & empowered to live lives & do works that were uncharacteristic of ordinary men - and they remained faithful to the end of their lives. Onto Page 2.
Without any offence meant I don't think that many christians in the whole world hold the belief that the apostles were not saved (ie born again) before Pentecost. So that means that although they were not saved, still they were called "clean" by Jesus, they participated in the first Communion during the last supper, they baptised other people, they were sent by Jesus to preach salvation to the Jews (without themselves being saved?) etc etc. Hard to believe, sorry.
Peter's preaching to the Hebrews on that day clearly makes Spirit baptism a separate event taking place after believing.
Similarly the incident in Samaria, in Ephessus. Trying to explain those events otherwise comes up with strange explanations. Like the apostles were not saved, like one can believe (just a mere knowledge) then gets baptised but still not saved, etc.
Lets go back to that meeting between Paul and the disciples in Ephessus.
Acts were written by Luke the Evangelist. Luke describes those people as disciples. Disciples of John? Wouldn't he write that? When he wrote the book of Acts he knew that those were disciples of John (assuming they were), so why doesn't he mention it? Why does Paul ask if they received the Holly Spirit after they believed? He assumed they had just a mere knowledge about Jesus? Why does he ask them in what name were they baptised? John didn't baptise people in his or other name. So He assumes that they were baptised.
The disciples told Paul that they had never heard of the Holly Spirit. Paul is surprised and asks them in what name were they baptised, because when one is baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holly Spirit, they have definitely hear that , the Holly Spirit. So how come theynever heard of it?
OK lets assume you are right and they were John's disciples. Why does Paul baptise them in water before them been born again? He should had done the opposite. So you see that trying to explain it like you do brings some strange explanations.
1. ( Luke 1:16-17) "And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord"
John's ministry apart from revealing the Savior to the Jews was to teach people to obey God's commandments (the OT ones), hence the "to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord"
People came by and asked him what to do, Luke 3:7-18, (the people, the publicans and the soldiers). Note v18 " And many other things in his exhortation preached he unto the people.".
Of course perfection came with Jesus but there were people in OT that strived to live according to God's Will. The scriptures call those people "righteous". An OT type of righteousness, not like of course the type of perfection in NT. Like Joshef in Matthew 1:19, "Then Joseph her husband, being a JUST man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.". Also Zacharias and Elisabeth in Luke 1:6, "And they were both RIGHTEOUS before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."
So John with his teaching led people to repentance for their sins (what they knew in OT). John could not introduce the Savior to people who live and enjoy a sinful life. It was needed to become "clean" (the type of OT "cleanliness") first and then he led them to Jesus. He prepared their hearts to receive Jesus.
God is logical, He does not act in strange, abnormal ways. We often think that He is not logical because we don't understand Him and His plans. But He is logical. He knows how to approach people, every single one according to their own peculiaritiy.
But at that time the repentance and the subsequent remission of sins was done in baptism, in public.
Sorry for such late delays in answering your replies.
I'm on the road and working during the week.
There's no improving on the great reply Brother Chris has given!
However here's my answer, atleast the short of it.
As for the People in the OT, they were saved by the same way those in the NT are saved. They were righteous by the requirements given at that time that pointed to the Cross.
Everything anyone did or do, whether Johns baptism or the disciples baptism "whether before or after" Pointed to one who was coming or came. And that is Christ!
As for them being clean before Pentecost.
John 15:3-4 tells us how the disciples were clean. "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Christ was with them when he went to the Father he said he would send them ANOTHER Comforter. Even before Christ was risen the Lord spirit has always been active in revealing truth and saving souls.
Matthew 16:17 is an example.
They had the Chief Shepherd with them, When he was smitten they scattered!
For the same reason the disciples didn't fast like John's disciples.
Mark 2:18-20.
As for the example sequence you laid out.
Quoting you;
"Peter said to people to just have a knowledge about Christ then get water baptised and then get born again?
That confuses me! I'll leave that one alone.
You asked; "What is baptism? and referenced Colossians 2:12 "Buried with him in baptism"...
You also referenced " Romans 6:3-7
, "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so WE ALSO SHOULD WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE.
We are to recognize this as done!
Water baptism didn't do neither.
Water baptism ritually points to the operation being done.
I haven't got any free time to go through your posts now (I just had a look at them) but I hope I will be you with you tomorrow or most propably during the weekend.
Part 1
In part 1 you gave me Luke 1:17 and stated, "This means that another part of John's ministry was to teach Hebrews to clean their heart by preaching them to obey God's commandments. I would have to disagree with you on that.
No one could keep the law therefore it couldn't make you clean. Acts 15:5-10. Romans 8:3. Galatians 3:10-14.
You also referred me to Luke 3:7-18. Notice vs 9) "And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire. They couldn't bare fruit! Israel was a degenerate vine.
Jeremiah 2:20-21. Matthew 21:42-44. In contrast to that Jesus is the genuine vine. John 15:1-2.
John was preparing the way for someone to do what the Law couldn't do. and that's Christ.
John's baptism was to turn the Jews "The lost sheep of Israel" to Christ and yet he says there comes one who will give a baptism that exceeds his that brings us to Jesus.
Now John says he must decrease, and Jesus must Increase. Now we have the beginning of Jesus ministry in which he came for the lost sheep of Israel. Due to blindness, they denied there king so as Paul says salvation has come to the Gentiles. That brings us to Pentecost. Here's a predominantly mostly if not all Jewish beginning of the Church. Here is where baptism of the Holyspirit begins and this is where the Spirit of God baptize Jews and Gentiles into the body of Christ and water baptism is a ritual way for you to display what the Spirit of God has already done once you TRULY believed.
So, the obedience is for you to show by display who and what you believe in. It's the faith of Christ that initiates your belief which leads to Salvation.
See part 2.
We are sealed by the Spirit.
Ephesians 4:30.
Here's the contrast to that.
Matthew 13:19-23. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
The Holyspirit spirit reveals the truth of God and takes the truth and seal it.
Also;
John 16:12-15. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Here in John 16:30-32 we have a picture of the disciples belief shattered after Jesus was crucified.
But after they were sealed they preached boldly!!
Look at their condition in Matthew 28:16-17.
Ephesians 1:13.
God bless.
I believe where we got off track is we're forgetting to mention an important aspect of the topic.
The Church!
John was the forerunner for Christ. He came to the Jews to prepare them.
The kingdom was at hand.
John performed the baptism of repentance.
The jews rejected their Messiah.
That brings us to Pentecost ( The birth of the Church. )
Then as Paul says in Romans, Salvation went to the Gentiles.
This is where the function of the Holyspirit is different from the way it moved people before the resurrection.
Hebrews 8:8-13.
In the old and new testament it takes the Spirit of God to save a soul.
We were giving the difference between new testament water baptism and baptism of the Holyspirit.
Only one puts Jews and Gentiles in the body of Christ and only one saves reveals and seals.
CONCLUSION.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. Hebrews 8:10-11.
GB
Spencer.
So Paul makes a strange question to them, doesn't he? Shall I assume again that Paul means that one always has just a knowledge about Christ then get w/baptised and then get born again? As I said I have never heard anybody teaching such a thing.
Question. Why does Paul ask them if they had received the Holly Spirit? How would they know? Unless there is an external sign that manifests the presence of the Holly Spirit, how could one know that they had received the Holly Spirit? Note that Paul didn't ask them if they just BELIEVED that they had received it, but if they had ACTUALLY received it.
GBU
Spencer.
Lets assume your are right about people in Samaria. So how about the apostles? Weren't they born again before Pentecost? But Jesus called them clean during the last supper i.e. in John 13:10.
When Peter preached to the Jews on Pentecost he said at the end, Acts 2:38, "..., Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.". Shall I assume that Peter said to people to just have a knowledge about Christ then get water baptised and then get born again? Hard to believe. I don't think there is any christian church of any denomination that teaches such a sequence of salvation.
Question. What is baptism? In Colossians 2:12 says "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.".
Also in Romans 6:3-7, "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: ..."
So the baptism among other is symbolic for the burial of our old sinful man and the subsequent erection of the new man. But we bury something that is dead not alive. Baptism has to come after the death of the old man, not before.
Lets go to that incident that Paul met those disciples in Ephessus.( Acts 18:1-7). He asks them if they received the Spirit after they believed? Strange question, isn't it? He also asumes that they were water baptised, because he asks tthem in what name they were baptised. (since they told him that they had never heard of the Holly Spirit, he wonders how come they had never heard of it since we are baprised in the name of the Father, the Son and HTE HOLLY SPIRIT). So Paul assumed in the begining that they were also w/baptised.
I don't read this passage as you have shared. I learn that Paul found certain disciples (12 of them) in Ephesus & was keen to find out if they had received the Holy Ghost (i.e. whether they had a re-birth experience). Their answer was that 'they hadn't even heard of the Holy Ghost, let alone receive Him'. So Paul questions them further as to their water baptism experience. And then the Truth comes out: they only received John's baptism, just like all the others who did so as a result of John's preaching. These, fortunately, were among those who believed that there was a coming Savior & so were His followers from afar, but that's all that happened to them. They might have been awaiting more news & more inspiration as to what to do next, not knowing the implications of Christ's death, even if they were aware of it.
Paul then, by the Lord's appointment to be at Ephesus I'm sure, told them that their baptism they received was only of repentance & pointing them to Jesus (which John came to do). But "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." This statement assumes that Paul preached to these disciples about the Cross & the Resurrection, and of faith in Jesus for their salvation. They never knew all this about the Jesus that they had heard about from John - they were only at the point of wanting to believe but had nothing else & no one else to instruct them. They then received the Christian baptism, with Paul laying on of hands to receive the Holy Ghost. As bro S. Spencer has shared, re-birth can only occur when the Holy Spirit enters into a repentant believing person, because it is HE alone Who does this work, brings about a change in life & direction. Jesus' 12 disciples weren't born again until the Pentecost experience; they were just followers who loved Jesus but not yet filled & empowered.
Chris
When that eunuch believed and got w/baptised by Philipp nothing seems to had happened as in Ephessus. Neither in Samaria before the apostles coming by. When Cornelius and his friends believed the Holly Spirit came with tongues, similarly in Ephessus. Why? Nothing seems to have happened to Paul himself when he himself believed and got saved. So sometimes something happens and other times nothing happens. Why? Because they are separate events. When Paul wants to mention new birth in his epistles he just writes "reborn" or similar expressions. When he wants to mention the baptism of the Holly Spirit he clearly writes that, He distinguishes between them.
Personally as far as you are concerned do you know (not just believe) that you are baptised in the Holly Spirit. And if you say yes, then how do you know that?
GBU
As for me, my confidence in my salvation, with the reception of the Holy Spirit, is because of, not only the total life-change He has brought me (if you only knew of my life before salvation), but also His direction of my mind & spirit towards to the things of God, my resolve to please & worship Him alone, & the confidence that my salvation is secure & rests on nothing else but His unmerited favor towards me & His precious Word. As well, in my ministry experience, I've seen the Spirit of God work in wonderful ways, both in me & before my eyes, which would be too long & unapplicable here. These things I've mentioned here cannot happen to those who haven't been gripped by God's Love, changed inwardly, & have God's Power by His Spirit working within. I may not speak in other tongues or have other manifestations that some believers look for as evidence, but the knowledge & experience of God working in me & before me is my perennial testimony of His indwelling Presence in my life. That's just a brief testimony I share with you, because you've asked. Every blessing brother.
Similarly in Samaria and in Ephessus.
Cornelious and his own people got Spirit baptised before getting water baptised. Paul was also baptised in water after he was baptised in Spirit. So it actually seems that baptism in Spirit may occur before or after water baptism.
But definitely after believing, with the exception of Cornelius where it seems that believing and baptism occured at the same time. So Spirit baptism may occur simultaneously with new birth but also after new birth. Why? Because they are different things.
But definitely it can not occur before new birth. There is a verse in Galatians 4:6, "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." Here it says that God sends His Spirit to people because as it says, you are sons ALREADY, not because you will become sons in the future.
Finally we see that during that early age ALL believers were baptised in God's Spirit. The apostles urged people to receive the Spirit. That is shown in Samaria where with no delay at all the apostles went there to lay hands on believers, it is shown in Ephessus where the very first question Paul asked those disciples was if they had received the Spirit AFTER they believed, it is shown in Paul himself when he received the Spirit as soon as he saw again etc. So in the ancient times there was an urgency that all believers should be Spirit baptised. That is why in all the epistles the apostles wrote they talk to people who are Spirit baptised. But this is not the case with many of today's christians who assume they have the Spirit dwelling in them just because they are tought it is so but it actually isn't so.
Chris, would you ever think of starting asking God in your prayer to give you His Spirit with an external manifestation? What would you think if you started talking in unknown languages? Would you then believe me that it is so? I know I can not convince you that I am right but God can certainly do that.
GBU
b. It is true, Christians today might be taught that they have the Spirit indwelling them & they willingly accept it, but that's only theoretical belief. A true believer cannot live his new life in Christ based only on a teaching given by someone - there must be a manifestation inwardly (a change) & outwardly (a new life revealed); because the Holy Spirit is never idle - He will point to Jesus & grow the Life of Christ in the believer. I can't see how this special mysterious work can be done outside of a person - it must be from the inside. Hence, my belief that those who have the indwelling Spirit, been sealed & secured by Him, can never depart from the faith - they will never desire it nor be persuaded by any other, even under persecution, to leave Christ - the Spirit won't allow it because the new birth is just that: a new life formed in you which can't be denied nor extinguished. Yes, he might slip up along the journey, but the Spirit will always bring him back in brokenness & repentance; the erring believer will be uncomfortable with sin & increasingly so, so that there remains no other avenue but to repent & seek forgiveness.
And that is how we must all learn about obedience, godliness, & walking in step with the Spirit. Is this too narrow a view? I don't believe that the Spirit of God works in any other way in His Church, His people. Under the OT economy (pre-crucifixion), the Spirit's Work was different & applicable to the need, whether through prophets, kings, laymen, even gentile monarchs, but to indwell a person to inwardly change the life, mind & heart, is reserved only for those who are truly in Christ.
But I can see that those under the Spirit's outside influence, whether to bring to repentance, to join with other believers, even to manifest some apparent godly traits, can be deceiving to others - but God makes no mistakes about those who have been given His Spirit. Blessings.
Thank you for the reply. I don't think I have anything more to say on this subject. God Bless You.
Thank you bro Giannis for your lengthy response. If I might address some of your points.
a. John 3:3-6. "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". If my Gk Lexicon is correct, the rendering is that 'a man is born out of/out from water and out of/out from the Spirit' ('ek'). In both references to the water & the Spirit, we see that one has to make a new appearance: the first which represents the physical birth (since this whole discussion with Nicodemus is about these two births), & the second, the spiritual birth. In neither of these births, the babe has any control or power. In the physical, the natural laws of human birth must take place, as also in the spiritual, the natural working of the Holy Spirit must take place to produce a new child/creation.
And there must be evidence of that work; Nicodemus could only understand it in the natural sphere, but in the spiritual sphere, the Spirit's Presence & Working must be seen, or else it is false. Therefore, I can understand the Spirit working through the Gospel preached by man & by the Word that is read, to minister to an unbeliever, but when a person turns to Christ & is born again, the Holy Spirit must indwell him & reside permanently ("Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his", Romans 8:9) - a very telling verse, leaving no room for misunderstanding. I could never perceive that the one who is in Christ can ever be one without the Holy Spirit residing within - it simply goes against the reason & working of the Spirit. So when you write, "So the Spirit works in the heart of a born again person, although He may not dwell in them", this is something that I simply cannot understand in light of the Scriptures, because re-birth is always from an inward dwelling, not an outward influence. See Page 2.
2. Spirit Baptism.
Tongues on Pentecost, in the case of Cornelius, in Ephessus. In Samaria although the text doesn't reveal anything about external signs, Simon the sorcerer must had seen something happening, otherwise he wouldn't try to bribe the apostles. He saw or heard something. ...?...
THE WAY NEW BIRTH AND SPIRIT BAPTISM OCCUR
1. New Birth
Going back to that discussion Jesus said that new birth occurs by the "water" and the "Spirit'. Now about the Spirit it is clear it means God's Spirit. Water?
Ephessians 6:26, "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,"
Peter 1:23, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."
Also James 1:18, "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."
So when one hears the living Word of God, that Word produces repentance in their heart and desire for a new clean life with Jesus, then next the Spirit of God regenerates their heart.
2. Spirit Baptism.
On Pentecost during praying.
In Cornelious' case when hearing the Word of God. This is the only case that matches with the way new birth occurs.
In Samaria when the apostles laid hands on believers. Similarly in Ephessus. Similarly in Paul himself.
In Luke 11:11-13, "...if ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?". So when we ask God in prayers to baptize us in His Spirit.
WHEN?
When Peter preached to Jews on Pentecost He clearly places Spirit Baptism after believing and getting water baptised, Acts 2:38, "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Also verse 41 says that all of them got water baptised afterwards.
Thank you for your response. I will make some comments and leave this subject, unless you would like us to keep on.
Firstly I can not accept the idea that things used to be otherwise in the early times of the church than nowadays. In such a case the Bible does not serve as a ruler to compare things with the Truth of God's Word. In the case that things change anybody can claim anything and nobody can check if something is right or not. This is not to offend you but it is something I firmly believe.
I do accept the change in your life. In John 1416-18, Jesus said to His disciples, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for HE DWELTH WITH YOU, and shall be in you.". That is how the apostles were clean. It was the Spirit who worked in them, although it didn't dwell IN them, He actually dwelt WITH them. So the Spirit works in the heart of a born again person, although He may not dwell in them.
But lets take it from the begining
EXTERNAL MANIFESTATION OF NEW BIRTH AND SPIRIT BAPTISM
1. New Birth
In that famous discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus, Jesus explained how new birth occurs, John 3:5-8, "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
Jesus said that we can not know how new birth occurs, there is nothing to show that a person is saved, not any external sign but only their life (this doesn't mean that one can not leave their good course later on)
This is my understanding of the re-birth experience - when the Holy Spirit comes in to reside, the life must change completely & irrevocably - if that doesn't happen (& the person will know it, if truthful), then that re-birth claim is spurious, thus giving way to many deceived but 'religious' persons in the Church.
Acts 19:1-7. I've understood those disciples to be ones of Jesus, not John (sorry if I misled you in this). We know that Jesus had many disciples, not just the twelve ( Luke 6:13; Luke 10:1), so these twelve in Ephesus may well be counted amongst those who believed that Jesus was the Messiah & attended to Him whenever they could. The disciples that Paul met were only baptized by John (not in his name but by him, hence called John's baptism). They never heard of the Holy Spirit, because under John's baptism, that wasn't necessary - they received his baptism pointing towards repentance & the Savior. And why should they be baptized first & then receive the Holy Spirit? In this formation of the Church, we do read of the Holy Spirit being given after the laying on of hands (here in Acts 19:6; Acts 8:13-17), so evidently, water baptism can precede reception of the Holy Spirit in those days. So, at that time, they seemed to be separate events, but today the Holy Spirit is received by true repentance & faith in Christ ( Romans 10:9,10). As Paul stated, salvation comes by confession & believing - and in my understanding, salvation can only happen by the Work of the Holy Spirit within the person. Onto Page 3.
Thanks bro Giannis for your comments. Just looking at our comments overall, I think that our understanding of the terms used differ. As in "clean" ( John 13:10,11); how should we understand that word? Was Jesus referring to their absolute purity or the state of their heart towards Him & learning from Him? I doubt if the disciples were sinless, so I would lean towards to their state of heart. And of course, one amongst them had a heart of hypocrisy, ongoing sin, & eventual betrayal.
I don't consider the Last Supper event as their First Communion (as we know it). They met simply to participate in the Passover, as all good, law-abiding Jews would do. But Jesus took that opportunity to then point the Passover to Himself as the Lamb Who would be slaughtered & His Blood shed. From the meal on the table, Jesus extracted the bread & the cup to pointedly show them the manner of His Death & its meaning, & for their future remembrance of this very sad yet great event. Should the disciples have been Christians (saved) to participate in the Passover? Or, could they not baptize others, even as John did? Or even preach to others & give healing from demons & sicknesses? In all these occasions as you have highlighted, the disciples were with Jesus or sent with power to do the work. They received His direction & empowerment to accomplish these tasks, yet remained ordinary unsaved men. Without Jesus, they were miserable, faithless, powerless men - but they were learning - being discipled. But when Jesus returned to His Father, His Promise was that they would not be left alone, but receive "power from on high". And should we even mention of what these disciples became when the Holy Spirit came upon them and in them? They were born again & empowered to live lives & do works that were uncharacteristic of ordinary men - and they remained faithful to the end of their lives. Onto Page 2.
Hi Chris
Without any offence meant I don't think that many christians in the whole world hold the belief that the apostles were not saved (ie born again) before Pentecost. So that means that although they were not saved, still they were called "clean" by Jesus, they participated in the first Communion during the last supper, they baptised other people, they were sent by Jesus to preach salvation to the Jews (without themselves being saved?) etc etc. Hard to believe, sorry.
Peter's preaching to the Hebrews on that day clearly makes Spirit baptism a separate event taking place after believing.
Similarly the incident in Samaria, in Ephessus. Trying to explain those events otherwise comes up with strange explanations. Like the apostles were not saved, like one can believe (just a mere knowledge) then gets baptised but still not saved, etc.
Lets go back to that meeting between Paul and the disciples in Ephessus.
Acts were written by Luke the Evangelist. Luke describes those people as disciples. Disciples of John? Wouldn't he write that? When he wrote the book of Acts he knew that those were disciples of John (assuming they were), so why doesn't he mention it? Why does Paul ask if they received the Holly Spirit after they believed? He assumed they had just a mere knowledge about Jesus? Why does he ask them in what name were they baptised? John didn't baptise people in his or other name. So He assumes that they were baptised.
The disciples told Paul that they had never heard of the Holly Spirit. Paul is surprised and asks them in what name were they baptised, because when one is baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holly Spirit, they have definitely hear that , the Holly Spirit. So how come theynever heard of it?
OK lets assume you are right and they were John's disciples. Why does Paul baptise them in water before them been born again? He should had done the opposite. So you see that trying to explain it like you do brings some strange explanations.
Hello Spencer
1. ( Luke 1:16-17) "And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord"
John's ministry apart from revealing the Savior to the Jews was to teach people to obey God's commandments (the OT ones), hence the "to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord"
People came by and asked him what to do, Luke 3:7-18, (the people, the publicans and the soldiers). Note v18 " And many other things in his exhortation preached he unto the people.".
Of course perfection came with Jesus but there were people in OT that strived to live according to God's Will. The scriptures call those people "righteous". An OT type of righteousness, not like of course the type of perfection in NT. Like Joshef in Matthew 1:19, "Then Joseph her husband, being a JUST man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.". Also Zacharias and Elisabeth in Luke 1:6, "And they were both RIGHTEOUS before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."
So John with his teaching led people to repentance for their sins (what they knew in OT). John could not introduce the Savior to people who live and enjoy a sinful life. It was needed to become "clean" (the type of OT "cleanliness") first and then he led them to Jesus. He prepared their hearts to receive Jesus.
God is logical, He does not act in strange, abnormal ways. We often think that He is not logical because we don't understand Him and His plans. But He is logical. He knows how to approach people, every single one according to their own peculiaritiy.
But at that time the repentance and the subsequent remission of sins was done in baptism, in public.
Sorry for such late delays in answering your replies.
I'm on the road and working during the week.
There's no improving on the great reply Brother Chris has given!
However here's my answer, atleast the short of it.
As for the People in the OT, they were saved by the same way those in the NT are saved. They were righteous by the requirements given at that time that pointed to the Cross.
Everything anyone did or do, whether Johns baptism or the disciples baptism "whether before or after" Pointed to one who was coming or came. And that is Christ!
As for them being clean before Pentecost.
John 15:3-4 tells us how the disciples were clean. "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Christ was with them when he went to the Father he said he would send them ANOTHER Comforter. Even before Christ was risen the Lord spirit has always been active in revealing truth and saving souls.
Matthew 16:17 is an example.
They had the Chief Shepherd with them, When he was smitten they scattered!
For the same reason the disciples didn't fast like John's disciples.
Mark 2:18-20.
As for the example sequence you laid out.
Quoting you;
"Peter said to people to just have a knowledge about Christ then get water baptised and then get born again?
That confuses me! I'll leave that one alone.
You asked; "What is baptism? and referenced Colossians 2:12 "Buried with him in baptism"...
You also referenced " Romans 6:3-7
, "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so WE ALSO SHOULD WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE.
We are to recognize this as done!
Water baptism didn't do neither.
Water baptism ritually points to the operation being done.
Gb
I haven't got any free time to go through your posts now (I just had a look at them) but I hope I will be you with you tomorrow or most propably during the weekend.
GBU
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