1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 Discussion Page 4

I have a question about verse 17. I've heard its interpretation in Church but I have a problem believing it means a rapture of some sort. How can Jesus return for those they say are going to be left when Our Savior returns at the sound of the 7th trump and the Anti Christ appears at the 6th trump. I have concluded the great falling away of the church and the deception of the Anti Christ is describing the millions upon millions will believe the Anti Christ has come to "rapture" them away. I think in Second Thessalonians it says believing the rapture makes God angry.

Thanks Chris,

I enjoyed teaching the young ones fresh into the school environment. I was able to bring Jesus too them in my and demeanor even if the public school environment restricts teachers from speaking openly about their faith. However, students are free to express their ideas on this matter and then I can respond when they bring something up. Parents have sensed my faith and shared with me their Christian faith and then I can share more. These parents express gratitude that their dear one will be taught by someone who loves Jesus like they do.

Now is the time for me to share my learnings with other adults as we build one another up in out faith. So glad that the Lord led me to this site and am thankful for the depth and breadth of the sections besides the Scripture text. This provides many avenues for us to help one another even though it is not in person.

I do indeed keep our dear folk who come on here, in my daily prayers, that together we will "grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" & therefore be used of Him for the blessing of others. It is truly a joyous thing, to fill ourselves with the knowledge of His Word, rather than the trash we get on our screens & phones. I can sense God's Spirit delighting to reveal more of our heavenly Father & His Son to us, being a blessed distraction from the things which can never satisfy.

What you're doing GiGi is very commendable by revisiting the Word from Genesis & sharing some very useful thoughts to assist us in understanding it, with a sprinkling of suggestions to challenge our thinking & appreciation of that Scripture. Your teaching skills are clearly apparent & I can see that they could have been well used (better used?) in the higher grades, given the chance.

I think many of us (for me at least), we just hit the Discussion Tab at the top of KJBO page (or else, hit Newest Discussion), & I progressively work down the page(s) until the comments start looking familiar from the previous day. But I guess one has to come on daily to do that with ample spare time, which I do, whenever I can. I started off here when Covid & lockdowns began over two years ago, rather than twiddle my thumbs at home - and I never left. I try to respond where I can; however, if others have already responded to questions & I have nothing useful to offer, then I go through the thread & move on. So that's my general plan. And some of the comments made here have forced me to consider verses or other theological matters, which I may have glossed over previously or not really considered. So, it's been an added avenue of study & ministry as well for me. And of course, if you don't get a response to your comment, it's not for a lack of readers - maybe there's been no prompt from the Spirit. So keep up the good work - I certainly enjoy what you've been sharing.

Hello,

Chris, I guess I do not know how this site works yet. I thought you were going back to Genesis and revisiting comment section to see what new posts say. Which, if so, I appreciate, because there are new people beginning the study of the Bible with Genesis that many studied months or years ago and while I can be helped by what they wrote, they cannot benefit or help newcomers if they do not go back and recheck what they previously studied. I realize this takes a lot of time. I just retired in September from being a Kindergarten teacher. So, I have time to do more than some others on this site. Last year when I was on medical leave dur to covid, I did months of research from non-Scriptural sources on and the pre-flood world and immediately post flood. And now I am studying Genesis again, because I am sure that God had me do the previous research for a reason and then lead to Genesis again.

I have truly enjoyed your many posts across the chapters of Genesis. You have a way of identifying iffy teaching and bringing the discussion back to solid teaching. Thank you. I will pray for you; please pray for me.

Thank you GiGi for those very kind remarks - they're truly undeserving. Many of us here come on often to do just that, to help others get to know & love the Scriptures more, thereby knowing the Will of God for them & living it out confidently in their lives. Actually, I don't go back into the Comments section looking at old posts - I find there are enough to consider & maybe comment on, in the present. And true, we'll never find agreement of everything in the Bible - there are so many variables & of course, the underlying fact is, that we often don't really have all the information to be able to say conclusively that a particular teaching is what it is & nothing else. The old adage, "Major on the majors and minor on the minors", should be where our focus is on - but it is nice to converse over 'peripheral' subjects & try & see how others view them. And thank you for your recent comments which have vividly brought us into the lives & thoughts of those men of old - indeed, we all bring out God's Word in a special way with our varied approaches.

Chris, I always love to read your posts. You are a straight arrow in your take on scriptural matters. I am uplifted by what you say and I stand in agreement with you for the most part. There may be some things we think differently on, but I feel that we both have been blessed with a strong foundation in Christ and the teachings of our faith. Thank you for going back and looking for new posts to respond to in chapters that you may have already studied and responded to in past months. This site needs people like you who are responsive to the need to welcome new posters, encourage others, gently guide others in fruitful discussions, and being watchful about what is being conveyed on this site. it shows you care about the people who come on here in a pastoral way. Thanks.

Hi Earl Sorry wrong name my mistake.

Brother Earl ! Samuel 28:6 already answers the question just something to keep in mind John 10: 9+10 The theif steal kill destroy, the true God life and more abundantly total opposites. Movin on God Bless.

I will attempt to locate your other threads.

You have insights that I really find stirring to my quest for scriptural understanding. I want to view more of them.

Your observation on the amount of time the average "Christian" spends in study is so sad and true.

I too was that way for possibly 50 years of my relationship with God and Christ. Yes, I am an old codger.

Too many years I spent being told what a verse meant and what to think about my relationship with God and Christ. I am so appreciative that God has permitted me to live long enough to find truth and not opinions.

Should we never speak together again in this existence, I pray to meet you in heaven and we find our answers from the Source itself.

May God bless and keep you throughout the remainder of your earthly life.

Thanks for being a brother.

Bill

Thank you brother Bill for your kind words and I have been equally edified & spiritually stimulated as we have shared in some very profitable discussions. And yes, some things, maybe many things, will be unknown to us this side of Heaven, 'but then shall I know even as also I am known', as all will be made abundantly clear to us. But I feel the Lord is pleased that we, as others who contribute on this Site, are so intensely engaged in spending time in the Word & with His children - sometimes to the neglect of our more mundane duties around the home. I find very few in the Church are prepared (or, capable) of spending time in serious discussion & searching of the Scriptures & so for a medium such as this, I'm very appreciative.

I have been active in other threads for the past couple of years, mostly responding to questions, but I don't think this Site allows one to call on a name to see what that person has written, maybe for good reason as personalities might become the focus, rather than general fellowship around the Word. Sometimes there is another 'Chris' that comes on, but hopefully one can tell from the material & manner in which comments are presented, that it's not one & the same.

I continue to look forward to reading your comments to others, & though we may not always see eye to eye, I know we do learn much from the experience & in endeavouring in building each other up in the Word & faith. The Lord bless you richly Bill.

Thank you brother Earl - that was a very good example that I had failed to recall. But would you not agree that the lying spirit that was controlling the mouth of those prophets was sent from the number that were gathered around God's Throne ( 1 Kings 22:19-23)? It appears so rather than an evil spirit appearing before God & putting up his hand to do the job. Then the question about the use of inducing a lie from one that is holy, or in another way, wilfully misleading the prophets to incorrectly proclaim God's Word. If this can happen, then it could well have been a being from Heaven that appeared to the witch in the form of Samuel, rather than an evil spirit. How do you understand what I've proposed?

Thank you for that comment Rick. I too noted verse 6, but questions remain. Nevertheless, as you stated, this should the close of this matter between us.

Brother David, I said God uses man (kind) to do his work or will, is not the witch mankind.

Brother Earl God did not communicate with the witch scriptural proof 1 Samuel 28:6 and when Saul inquired of the lord the lord answered him not neither by dreams nor nor by urim nor by prophets.

Chris My apologies in sharing it was not The true God communicating through the spirit look at Chapter 28:6 proof that the lord was not answering, so what was going on was the familiar spirit just used what the true God had already told Saul because of saul's disobedience the only added point was that Saul was going to die which was not stated by the true God. Keep something in mind our enemy knows Gods Word verbatim only he uses it to His advantage. This is my closing God Bless

Brother Chris, could the way God convinced Ahab also apply to the witch.

1 Kings 22:19-23

God always uses man to do his work or will.

Thank you brother David. That being the case (that the message was the adversary's manipulation), then how did the adversary know the prophetical word before it was given by God? This was my question to Rick & I remained intrigued how this can happen. Have we seen such a thing happen anywhere in the Scriptures? Can God actually choose to use a devil to bring a prophetical word to another, like Saul?

Sadly, this discussion will end with no comfort for you as to the place where the spirit resides following the death of our earthly bodies.

The only definitive scriptures either use "Paradise", or a similar term, as did Christ on the cross, or, "Sleep" as did Paul. It is unclear, and perhaps, no, not perhaps, but by God's divine design.

I too sensed this discussion was reaching its profitable limit as I composed my last reply. We can not go past the scriptural knowledge God and Christ have provided us, allowing for the corruption of scripture by man.

However, our discussions have been both spiritually and personally enlightening and I am a better Christian because of them. I give you sincere and heartfelt thanks for your time and insights.

One request my Christian brother, are you active in other threads on this site? If so, would you kindly give me directions to them? I value your insights and interpretation of scripture and learn from your postings.

Thank you again for sharing with me.

May your paths always fall under the protective wings of our God.

May we know one another in heaven.

Your brother in Christ,

Bill

Brother Bill. I too have enjoyed sharing with you these very precious Scriptures & being exercised in mind & spirit to view them from another perspective.

I sense that our exchange will end shortly, as I do find agreement in what you have written about the apostle expressing a deep longing to "exit the trials of this life and enter the rest...". And likewise, with the Philippians verses, we are reminded again of his yearning to "be with Christ". As much as those of us who lean strongly to the departure of the spirit at death & immediately into the Lord's Presence, I'm still left wondering if that were not the case, then where do our spirits go? In the Old Testament, we get a view of a holding place (which is taken as a parable by many) & even Ecclesiastes 12:7, but what about post-Cross? Since I know your understanding of this, I don't wish to re-hash what has been discussed previously, but I feel that if I too held the position you hold, I would earnestly seek to learn what are the possible options before us of where the spirit of the dead go, if at all. There can't be too many options - is there no indication or hint in the NT of this interim state? If none, would it be strange that none of the apostles spoke of this? If I were a part of that early community, this would be a pressing enquiry, just as the apostle's words of assurance of the resurrection & the coming of the Lord to those despairing believers.

Ok, I understand that you were focussing on 2 Timothy 2:11 & not the whole. My mistake. I certainly can agree on that one, that the rapture is not referred to here.

Again, thank you for taking so much time to share your understanding & thoughts - I'm sure many of us have been benefited from them & no doubt will be able to take in those Scriptures with a fresh look & appreciation. Every blessing brother Bill.

Just to add to conversation God did not give the message to samuel to tell Saul that was a manipulation of the adversary.

Thanks brother. I agree with everything you've written & the appropriate Scriptures you've cited. Yet, my question remains up in the air, from the latter part of my previous comment.

You stated earlier that "The enemy will always use part truth or use it out of context to complete his manipulation". So, my question was, how can the enemy know that 'part truth' when that Truth hasn't been declared yet by God? And that Truth was that Saul & his sons would die on the morrow in battle & the host of Israel would fall into Philistine hands. This is not a question of true & false prophets/prophecy, but of the power of devils to know the future without it being declared.

Anyway brother, I'm fine if there is no clear answer from you, because I'm not sure how else I could reword the question. And all this is in line with who that Samuel was who appeared to the witch; if it was an impersonating devil, then he knew the Mind of God - if Samuel's spirit, then God gave this prophecy through him to deliver to Saul.

Chris Prophecy from the true God will always come to pass verbatim, prophecy from false prophets never does Jeremiah 23:21+22 so called prophecy from false prophets inspired by devil spirits will never come to pass verbatim. In 2 Kings 6 starting at verse 25 there was a great famine in samaria that in verse 31 the king blamed the man of God and wanted Him dead. Chapter 7 first two verses is a great example of revelation or future prophecy that happened verbatim from the true God.

Thank you for your kind words and for sharing your interpretation of the Apostles expected timetable for the return of Christ.

I do believe the Apostles belief that Christ would return for them within their lifetime was tempered with time. As you read in the discussion between Chris and myself, there is evidence, at least to me, that Paul grew to realize the tasks given to the believers by Christ would take longer than originally expected.

I see this as no negative reflection upon the Apostles. Scripture abounds with evidence the Apostles did not understand so much of what Christ taught to them as His future "missionaries". Foremost to me is their not understanding the crucifixion and resurrection.

But would we have understood? From a Jewish view of the Messiah, most likely not. We can not fault them as their expectations were entirely different from god's plan. Plus, our minds are slow to grasp some of the concepts of God's purposes.

Again, thank you for the kind comments.

Bill

Hello again brother Chris. As always, your thoughts give me the inspiration to explore the verses we are discussing. Thank you for stimulating my mind.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8, to me, is not reflecting the actual Rapture in and of itself, but more of Paul's expectations of his pre-Rapture and post-Rapture existence. Verse 6 - " Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:". While in this earthly body, our spirit is not in the presence of the Lord as He resides in heaven while we reside on earth. No question as to the truth of this concept. Verse 8 - " We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord". I see this as an expression of longing to exit the trials of this life and enter the rest preceding the actual spiritual entry into heaven.

Philippians 1:21-24 expresses the same as the verses above.

In both sets of verses, I do not see Paul expressing an immediate spirit in heaven event. To me, they do not say this. It is a happening that will occur with no timetable.

Your points for 2 Timothy 2:10-13 are well taken and understood. My purpose in using this scripture selection is verse 11. "It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:". To me, this verse reflects a new recognition of the timetable for the return of Christ. We will live with Him without a sense of it being immediate.

Your comment was, which is a very good observation, "an allusion to the resurrection of the body, I see it as specifically to the Promise made to those who have died to sin & self". I agree with the allusion of a resurrection, but not of the body at the rapture. First Corinthians 15:40 - "There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies". This is reflected in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.

Until our next chat, brother in Chr

Thank you again brother Bill & for the clarification of that Scripture. I too have to exercise care.

I gather from your comments on 2 Corinthians 5:1-8, you apply that Scripture to the Rapture. Whereas, I see it as the physical death of a believer & the immediate transition of his spirit into the Lord's Presence (i.e. while we're alive we're not in the Lord's Presence (Heaven) - then death ought to be welcomed because it means that we no longer have to 'groan' in our burdens of mortal life). I see that the apostle longed to be taken from this Earth, yet his earthly work must go on until the Call to come Home. Also Philippians 1:21-24: Paul expressing the same.

I'm unsure whether Paul began to doubt the 'timing' of the Lord's Coming; I think he lived in expectation of it given that the last days were always in view post-Crucifixion. I do recall Peter, in 2 Peter 3:3 ff, describe the condition of those 'scoffers' who will try to nullify the Lord's Promises, by saying, "Where is the promise of his coming?" And of course, Peter proceeded to show that the Lord's Promises are certain, as they were in Noah's day, & the utter destruction of the Earth by fire in latter days. That we cannot discern the times that God alone sets. If the Lord's Coming hasn't occurred as yet, "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" then that has to be the Lord's Determination.

2 Timothy 2:10-13. I take in your thoughts on this, though again, I see it differently. Paul shares 4 contrasts (from the last one): if we are faithless (faith deficient), He remains faithful; if we deny Him, He will deny us; if we suffer for Him, we will reign (in triumph) with Him; if we have identified with Him (in dying to sin & the old life, even as He died for us to give us salvation), we will enjoy eternity with Him. Excuse my thoughts added here, but as much as I agree that there's allusion to the resurrection of the body, I see it as specifically to the Promise made to those who have died to sin & self.

Thank you brother for those comments. I will leave off the matter of appearance of the evil spirit impersonating Samuel & the witch's response, or else that not being the case, it depends how one reads & comprehends that passage. Your view does have merit & worthy of further examination in light of other Scriptures.

However, you wrote: "the enemy knows what was already spoken by the true God". That is true & even as we earlier referred to Genesis 3:1-4. But the point I raised was, can devils know what has NOT been earlier spoken by God? In other words, is the spirit of prophecy with both the Holy Spirit & evil spirits? As far as I know, the fact of Saul's & his son's death happening on the following day - the fact of the army of Israel losing the battle to the Philistines are all unknown facts (though possible in Saul's mind), that are apparently well known to this 'evil spirit' impersonating Samuel. That is what I cannot fathom - it's not just a case of truth mixed with lies - here we have a prophetical utterance of what is yet to happen, that was undeclared earlier by God to any prophet.

Your exactly right. You sleep. Like suspended animation. Because time doesn't exist in eternity. Whether you pass a thousand years ago or today, we're all asleep until he comes again. TY for your clarification!!!

Hi Bill , thankyou for that post , just wanted to say that I believe the same as you on this subject . I believe we cease to exist until Christ returns and we are ressurected . We won't be aware of any thing and won't know where we have been or for how long , why would we need to ? It would seem from the apostles letters that they expected Christ to return to earth in their lifetime . I always feel a bit sad for them as the years rolled by and I wonder if they were sad that they were having to wait so long . When they are awoken with us ,if we have also died , what a fabulous re union for them and the joy of us all shall shake the world ! May it come to pass ever so soon .

Page 2

My computer, or mind, is definitely not my friend. Sorry for the scrambled scripture ending page 1.

Second Timothy, if the last epistle of Paul or not, contains verses that I believe show Paul had a different belief in death and the spirit's arrival in heaven to be with Christ.

2 Timothy 2:10-13 - "10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

Verse 11, " It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him." I believe this verse alludes to the coming resurrection of the dead in Christ. I hold this view based on Paul's words "we SHALL LIVE with Him".

At death, we are with Him in the grave, as was Christ upon His death. At our resurrection, commonly referred to as the rapture, we too will be raised from our grave, meaning death. Not a physical and/or decomposed earthly body, but as a new type of being, unknown to us in our knowledge in this life. It is at this point we live with Him.

I believe Paul had become or was becoming, aware he would have a waiting period before the return of Christ at the time this epistle was written.

If Paul was realizing Christ would not return within his lifetime, or shortly after, Paul had to believe in a "sleep" until the return of Christ.

However, we are still missing a definitive "where" this period of "sleep" will be or its heavenly given name.

Be safe my brother in Christ until our next comments.

Bill

Greetings my brother Chris.

Pardon my tremendous error in my previous response!!! A mighty example of the mind outracing the fingers on the keyboard.

I apologize for sending "I believe Revelation 20:14 explains the place all souls reside after death until the gathering of the church and the following judgment of the lost." My intention was to state - I believe Revelation 20;14 explains the place all lost souls eternally reside after the gathering of the church and following the judgment of the lost. Quite different than what I originally sent.

As to my comments on 2 Corinthians 5:1-8, I do not think Paul fully understood the timing of the return of Christ for His church. In my studies, I have found that many, perhaps a large majority, of early believers envisioned a quick return of Christ. Paul was the foremost of these believers in a return in his lifetime. Thus stated, at the time of his writing (dictating?) Second Corinthians I believe Paul expected an imminent return of Christ. Later, I believe Paul came to realize the timetable of Christ's return was longer than he originally believed.

It is believed Paul initially visited Corinth about 50-51 CE. The First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians is believed to have been written about 53-54 CE from Ephesus. The second letter is believed to have been written from Macedonia in about 55 CE. Thus the second letter was approximately 5 years after Paul first visited Corinth. Paul's execution is dated between 67 and 70 CE.

Based on the traditional view, 2 Timothy was Paul's final epistle and is dated as 67 CE and originated in Rome. While the date is not certain, the location is known as Paul was in the custody of the Romans at his time.

See Page 2

e that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: