1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 Discussion Page 5

Chris The reason the witch of endor showed shock is that the conjurer is also controlled spiritually that is part of the entire deception Samuel was dead and in Sauls desperation to hear from the true God he goes through great lengths to go to a medium. Also you said an evil spirit cannot bring forth Gods message, not true because the enemy knows what was already spoken by the true God and used it to verify the deception that Saul was actually talking to the spirit of Samuel when he was not. The enemy will always use part truth or use it out of context to complete his manipulation he always starts by getting someone to question what God says. The adversary has to use part truth in Genesis the true God thou shalt surely Die and they did Spiritually not physically but worse adam gave rulership of the world to the adversary when he disobeyed God. Luke 4:6 and 2 Corinthians 4:4. If interested in more info on subject matter look into The Book The challenging counterfeit.

Brother Bill, I continue to enjoy our discussions.

Couple of your points. Firstly, distinguishing between Sheol & the Lake of Fire. You stated that "I believe Revelation 20:14 explains the place all souls reside after death until the gathering of the church and the following judgment of the lost." That passage speaks of the Lake of Fire which apparently is the terminus of all unforgiven sinners, including Satan, his henchmen, the Anti-christ, etc., or maybe I've misunderstood you. Can that burning Lake, from which there is no escape, be considered a holding place for all souls after death? Indeed, as you stated, "God would have none perish in the eternal fire as He is love", yet we know that the majority will suffer in that eternal raging flame for they have spurned the offer of God's Love, despised His Son, & must suffer under His Just Hand. If that were not so, there is no case for the Gospel & its spread, often done in great labours even death, throughout the world.

Re: 2 Corinthians 5:1-8. I've re-read this. In verses 1-4, Paul writes on our 'earthly house' being dissolved (returned to dust), & we have the promise of a "house from Heaven". And verse 5 connects that thought of our glorified body provided by the same God Who has given us the "earnest of the Spirit", with the next verses. Paul says 'while he is in this body, he is absent from the Lord'. Rather the very opposite is his longing & confidence, 'to be absent in the body & to be present with the Lord'. So, I agree with how you read some of this portion, though I guess, it's how we read verses 6 & 8. Is Paul inferring a gap between his bodily demise & spiritual awakening in the Lord's Presence, or does he envision a 'no gap': his spirit must either be clothed in a body or be clothed in a heavenly body? - Either here or there. Can a believer given the Spirit & leaving this Earth, be left in a state of flux, rather than immediately return to the One Who has purchased us, completing His redemptive work?

Thank you David. Indeed, Matthew 22:32 does speak of the resurrection as Jesus answered the Saducees who don't believe in the resurrection. What Jesus was telling them, was that the Eternal God is not a God Who would be concerned for the dead who will never live again. Why? Because He is a God of the Living, i.e. Abraham, Isaac & Jacob would one day be resurrected to life on Earth again, therefore though dead, God knows that He will bring them back to life on Earth again. Or else, Jesus should have spoken it this way, 'God WAS the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob', which the Sadducees would have commended Him for. Now whether, in context of our discussion, that Abraham, Isaac & Jacob were presently alive in spirit awaiting the resurrection, or that, no, it was only a parable using Abraham's names & speech, but without reality, is the focus.

Thank you Rick. As I mentioned earlier, I am totally unfamiliar with such manifestations except what we read in the Word. In the case of the witch of Endor, the first clue I gained was the utter surprise of the witch when a spirit (of Samuel) appeared instead of what was the usual appearances of evil spirit manifestations ( 1 Samuel 28:12). Would a necromancer be shocked at an appearance of one that was not what she was familiar with? Maybe these spirits appear in a special way or form that wouldn't surprise or affright her, but it seems that this was not the case with Samuel.

And secondly, if it was an evil spirit, how did it know (or, prophesy) of an occurrence that was not known earlier ( 1 Samuel 28:19, "to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines")? I understand what you wrote, that even the devils can know this, when you wrote about the adversary the father of lies, "Remember in Genesis thou shalt not die", referring to Genesis 3:4. Yet, Satan there could only say that because God had already told Adam that. Could Satan prophesy of coming events, whether of Israel, the nations or the future of the world?

I do thank you for your explanation brother & it was certainly worth considering, but there are still a couple of these hurdles I need to get over to be fully persuaded - if you or someone can provide some Scripture to show that even Satan & his devils can foretell future events without those events already declared by God prophetically, I would be grateful.

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So, where does the spirit reside, we do not know the physical location. On this side of heaven, we will never know. Paul says that we will know as we are known in 1 Corinthians 13:12.

Even if the answer as to the physical location of the spirits of the dead, could we comprehend with our lowly human brain? Surely not. However, one day we will know everything about everything.

I love your words "I can understand & appreciate the "twofold purpose" of the 'parable'; for indeed tis true, but the third purpose I see that leaps out to the reader, is of the awful torment that awaits those who have given little regard to God's Laws & practice of 'true religion". This point is either missed or ignored by so many professing Christians. Well said.

Paul's writings, in addition to being very complicated and sometimes confusing, reflect a belief that he would still be alive at the second coming of Christ. This is also true for John the Revelator. Given this view of the quickness of the return, some passages must be looked upon as reflecting this belief.

2 Corinthians 5:8 must be read within the context of the first 7 verses for understanding. I do not read verse 8 as being an immediate transferring of the spirit from the body to heaven but as a comparison of the bodily tabernacle and its earthly existence to the tabernacle that awaits us in heaven. To me, Paul is expressing his, and perhaps our, desire to pass from the earthly existence into an existence with Christ and God, but without a timetable of it being immediate.

I thank you for our conversations and find them extremely enlightening.

May God grant you a blessed day my brother in Christ.

Bill

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Good morning brother Chris!

Oh, the power of this discussion! So much to share together and expand our minds in the Spirit.

Your last post opens a wealth of information contained in both the Old and New Testaments as we know them.

We must agree that we have, and will keep, very separate views of the story of the beggar, Lazarus. I have no problem with our differing views as it is my firm conviction, that with few verese excluded, God reveals truth on an individual basis. This is where we two are on this scripture.

My personal belief is that ALL souls do, and always have, leave the body and go to a "holding place" until the gathering of the church by Christ. Further, I do not believe there is a "chasm" between the good and bad souls across which the two sides can see and talk with each other; prior to the resurrection or afterward.

Revelation 20:14 says that death and hades, Greek, (Sheol Hebrew), are thrown into the lake of fire. Why? Because they are no longer part of God's realm - death will be absent in eternity and the residence of the souls is unnecessary because of the judgment of the non-believer in verse 20:11.

I believe Revelation 20:14 explains the place all souls reside after death until the gathering of the church and the following judgment of the lost. If the place is named, its location is not. However, it does exist and verses indicate Christ visited Sheol during the three days prior to the resurrection - 1 Peter 3:18-20; Ephesians 4:9-10, (see Psalms 68:18, Isaiah 61:1-2, and Luke 4:18).

Why would Christ visit the souls in Sheol? All covenants before that of Christ did not include salvation, only atonement for sin by animal blood. The spirits of all that died prior to the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ were given the chance to acknowledge Christ and His salvation to allow them to be participants in the salvation provided by the resurrection.

God would have none perish in the eternal fire as He is love.

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. In the gospel of Mathew starting at verse 23 to 32 the context of the conversation is at the time of the resurrection all these things he's teaching apply including verse 32 Jesus says I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, God is not the God of the dead but of the living when context at the resurrection. This applies to all who had died.

Chris To answer your question yes because anything the true God does the adversary counterfeits it and gives a com bination of truth and lies. What was conjured up by the witch of endor was a devil spirit known as a familiar spirit [necromancer]which means it knew what saul looked like and how he spoke and what he knew when he was living. Everything that the Counterfeit Samuel said was accurate including the part where Saul was going to die because the adversary knew Saul was dead. The dead are dead and will not resurrect until either the gathering together of the church return of Christ if born again or the resurrection of the just and unjust in the book of revelation. I know christians don't believe this stuff is real but that's what makes the adversary the father of lies. Remember in Genesis thou shalt not die you'll be as smart as God when God said thou shalt surely die and they lost there spiritual connection and eventually took last breath and returned to dust of the ground. Not one place in the bible are they called demons they are devils or messengers of Satan they are spirit beings only working for the enemy. Saul not only sought her advice but broke bread with her that's how checked out saul was mentally. Look at Deuteronomy 18:9-12, the Witch of Endor knew this! There's more to this field of understanding it is a significant part of our spiritual battle. Also seances where they say they talk to the deceased same trip different method, these were held at the white house by several presidents wives!

Thank you Rick. I have also heard from others that which you have written, that the spirit that appeared before the witch was demonic.

The question then: can an impersonating demonic spirit say what he did in 1 Samuel 28:15-20? I have to admit my ignorance on how the spirit of a person wherever it may be located, can be called up to appear, present himself & speak. If this was an (evil) demonic spirit, are then the words it expressed also be considered truth, for it is evident, that an evil spirit cannot bring forth God's Message? Unless of course, that wasn't truth that was given & the whole scenario was a falsehood & should be altogether removed. Samuel however, does give us a clue: he said, "why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up"? (v 15). It appears that Samuel's spirit was at rest at some place (in the OT economy), for he was brought up (up from where?). We need to consider the whole portion & come to our own understanding.

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We then have the account of Sarah & Hagar (Genesis chapter 16 & onwards), & then the apostle uses that account in Galatians chapter 4, to indicate that the story served to reveal to us both an historical event & an allegorical Truth, of Abraham, Sarah & Hagar. One could never presume that those three folk never existed, but a further Truth can be learned about the two covenants. In like manner, because nothing more is known about Lazarus & the rich man, can we confidently believe that that event in Hades did not actually take place with those very people? And yes, I can understand & appreciate the "twofold purpose" of the 'parable'; for indeed tis true, but the third purpose I see that leaps out to the reader, is of the awful torment that awaits those who have given little regard to God's Laws & practice of 'true religion".

"My point - the spirit of the vast majority of Christians do not enter heaven prior to the rapture." If "sleep" is a "holding place referred to by Paul", then at least we should specify where that holding place is. Which brings us to the first point in this discussion: is this holding place at the decomposed body's site, or in Hades, afloat in the ether regions, or elsewhere? Because of the lack of biblical clarity, I would lean towards Paul's own desire to leave this body of flesh & corruption of the world & to be present with his Lord. I don't see an extended gap between leaving the Earth & being in the Lord's presence, even if in spirit form. Every blessing to you brother.

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Our conversation is enlightening & profitable, for which I thank you, brother Bill. Yes, it was my error concerning the "3 recorded resurrections". I took your statement to apply to the graves that were opened at our Lord's crucifixion & death, given the Matthew 27 reference.

Then, to the Lazarus (parable). I understand the meaning of Lazarus, as most names in those days also had a specific meaning, e.g. "Thou art Peter" (Petros), a rock. As much as the Lord used Peter's name to signify the Rock of Truth on which the Church would be built, & Peter the rock, would play a significant part in that, Peter still remained Peter & was Peter to all. With Lazarus, & of course the mention of Abraham's existence, the call & plea to Abraham, & Abraham's response, should conclusively convince us that this was no mere parable, but a real-life (or, real-death) occurrence. And this pointed to those who trusted in riches & not in God, with no regard to the needy, & the one who was in need in life (in OT economy), all had to face an actual (initial) judgement. If this were only a parable, would the mention of Lazarus & Abraham only be allegorical & would Jesus then be deceiving His hearers when such people & such a situation didn't exist in the after-life? And this cannot be said of His other parables (e.g. sower, lost coin, prodigal son, etc.). Onto Page 2.

Hello again my brother in Christ

Appreciate your kind comments on my last post.

To begin, my comment concerning the number of resurrections from death by Christ must have not been clear to you. I know of only 3 recorded resurrections performed by Christ: Lazarus, John 11:1-44; the widow's son, Luke 7:11-17; and Jairus's daughter, Luke 8:40-56 I then expressed my opinion there were most likely more that were not recorded. I see Christ as a compassionate savior, and personally, believe more miracles were performed than are recorded in today's Bible.

My conviction the story of Lazarus the beggar is a parable is based on the Hebrew meaning of the name Lazarus meaning "God has helped". Christ was speaking to an audience of disciples originally and some Pharisees later joined the group, verse 14, and began to deride Christ. Christ then speaks to the Pharisees as to their violations of the Law and the parable of Lazarus.

The parable of Lazarus serves a twofold purpose. First it serves to emphasize the responsibility of those more fortunate to aid the less fortunate. Second, it foretales the rejection of Christ by the Jews, even after the resurrection. The first purpose most likely fell on deaf ears as the Pharisees because of their self-righteousness. The second was not realized and accepted by even the remaining 11 disciples initially.

Reference to the place of the spirit after death until the gathering of the church by Christ is referenced after the resurrection by Paul, in many places in scripture. Paul refers to the "holding place: as sleep.

Now, where did the souls John sees in Revelation come from and at what point did they arrive in heaven. Revelation 3:10 is easily interperted as the rapture before tribulation. Revelation 7:9-17 surely is post-rapture by content.

My point - the spirit of the vast majority of Christians do not enter heaven prior to the rapture. Enoch, perhaps. Elijiah definitely ( 2 Kings 2:11).

Thank you, my brother in Christ

Chris I'm sharing here because the account of supposedly the spirit of samuel being raised from the dead is actually demonic power in action. Saul at this time was not walking with God and chose to go to a witch chapter 28:6+7 to get advice from a prophet who was dead. The context of this starts at 1 Samuel 15 when Saul disobeyed the man of Gods orders and the end result was chapter 15 verse 26. Eventually Saul in chapter 31 verse 4 suicided thats how far out spiritually he got. Until Christ returns for the church and the just and unjust are raised the dead are dead.

Hello Bill & thank you once again. As I understand from your earlier post, that you also believe that 'sleep' in this instance, refers to death. It being a euphemism, unlike 'trust' (in your example), which isn't one. That being the case, 'sleeping in the salvation of Jesus', seems fine in one sense, yet doesn't fit the context here. Paul is writing to the Thessalonians because of their concern & sorrow that those who have departed earlier have altogether disappeared from view. So Paul says, that those who have died may indeed have their bodies in the grave, but when Jesus comes, He will bring those very persons back to Earth with Him ( 1 Thessalonians 4:13,14). There is no break in the train of thought here (from verses 13-18).

Re: 1 Samuel 28:11-20. This is in the OT economy, where we can understand that Samuel's spirit, & of those deemed righteous, were in a holding place of comfort, even as Jesus outlined in Luke 16:19-31. After the crucifixion & resurrection, we don't find evidence of such a place of rest for the believer.

With the account of the rich man & Lazarus, we might have to defer on that, as I feel, if Lazarus didn't exist, then really none of the other details would make sense & would have to be treated metaphorically (i.e. no place of punishment & suffering).

"Jesus restored life to at least three (3) bodies, for these are recorded", you wrote. Sorry, I need enlightening: where is this number recorded? I only know of, "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose", without giving a number. Many thanks again, brother.

Good morning Chris.

Thank you for your kind comments.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) -"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.". Have you considered "sleep in Jesus" as referring to the believers that sleep in the salvation of Jesus and not in some place in which Jesus is present (heaven)? Saying that I trust in Jesus does not actually mean that I am attached or embodied in Jesus. It means that I trust in what Jesus stands for as my salvation and eternal life with Him.

Sorry about my misunderstanding as to the Lazarus in your prior comment. Lazarus had died, no doubt in any Christian's mind. The body was decomposing as Mary told Christ. Christ recalled the spirit, some may soul, of Lazarus and the body was restored to life until the appointed time for the spirit to exit the body later. That the spirit resides somewhere accessible is not the question; the question is where. I find no concrete evidence it is in heaven either before or after the resurrection.

Case in point, 1 Samuel 28:11-20. The spirit of Samuel was brought from its resting place for Saul. Granted, God can do and/or permit ALL THINGS. Personally, I can not accept the spirit of Samuel was recalled from heaven, but it could have been.

As to the use of the name "Lazarus" in the parable of the poor beggar, the Hebrew meaning of Lazarus, (Hebrew, , means "God Has Helped". Thus, the use of "Lazarus" reinforces the intended meaning of the parable and invites no questioning as to the name after the parable is concluded.

Matthew 27:52,53 is another example of the unlimited power of God. Jesus restored life to at least three (3) bodies, for these are recorded. There was an earthquake that could have opened graves. Those brought to life are called "saints". Those raised would have been known in Jerusalem to have died. This, to me, is an act of confirming Christ's holiness and coming resurrection in three (3) days.

Chris Correction to comment rebirth begins on earth the rest is as stated.

Thanks for your response, Bill. You wrote: "Paul does not say the body will be raised; The sleeping spirit is raised from its rest, or sleep." Yet, in 1 Thessalonians 4:14 we read: "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." Of course, there can be discussion on why God's Name is mentioned here, but the verse says that those who have slept (in Jesus), God will bring with Him. And in the following verses, "the dead will rise first". Who then would be those whom God brings & the dead rising, if the dead doesn't represent bodies of people?

My mention of Lazarus is the one spoken of in John chapter 11, the brother of Mary & Martha. But since you mentioned Lazarus of Luke 16:19-31, believing this account to only be a parable, then in my understanding, Jesus never used people's names in His parables. If this was a parable, the Pharisees & others listening to Him, could well ask Jesus, who Lazarus was. Jesus of course, would have to say, 'I just made up this fictious name', thereby giving them further reason to continue their derision of Him. It was always, 'a certain man, or a sower who went out', as unnamed people in parables. Then of course, Paul's description of sleep, in my understanding, is simply the body lifeless & decaying, awaiting the resurrection when the spirit is joined to the resurrected body, as in Matthew 27:52,53, when bodies of the saints were resurrected at Jesus' crucifixion. Those spirits must have returned, the bodies recomposed, & another spectacle of proof of the One Whom they crucified. So, it may be quite possible, that a similar miracle will take place at the Lord's Coming, of spirits returning to their newly reconstituted bodies.

Anyway, thank you for sharing your thoughts brother.

Thank you Rick. I generally agree with what you've written, except for the reference to "born again". "when a believer falls asleep His spirit goes back to God who gave it, Hence born again of Gods spirit." My understanding is that re-birth must begin on Earth, i.e. after repentance & faith in Jesus, God's Spirit enters the forgiven sinner, baptizes him into Christ & cohabits with man's spirit, renewing & energizing him. If re-birth didn't take place now, then we will remain in continual fear & state of anguish for sins, not having the Holy Spirit's Work of confirming our acceptability & new relationship with God ( 2 Corinthians 5:17; 1 Corinthians 3:16; & many more) - all showing that the Spirit's residence is evidence of a re-birth, and this happens now & not when our spirits return to God. That is my understanding - unless I have misunderstood you.

In regards to 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and the resurrection of the church of the Body of Christ whether asleep or alive, when a believer falls asleep His spirit goes back to God who gave it, Hence born again of Gods spirit. Man was originally Created in Gods image which is Spirit John 4:24 God Is Spirit. The soul life Genesis Chapter 2:7 God breathed into man the breath of life and man became a living soul so when man takes his last breath that's the end of his soul then the body unto dust thou art and unto dust thou shalt return. From what I've seen soul and spirit get some how made the same thing when they are not biblically. When we are born we are body and soul without God and without hope, then when we get born again we have our spiritual connection with God which which was lost in Genesis and bought back by Jesus Christ making it available to become sons and daughters of God. When Christ returns for His body the Church we will be resurrected in perfect bodies not like what we have now. Incredible future to look forward to.

Hello Chris and Adam.

My belief as to the meaning of "sleep", as used by Paul, is death and the waiting period that follows until christ returns for His church. This state of being could very well be the "Paradise" Christ promised the thief on the cross; in no instance should "paradise" be considered as heaven, for it is not.

As for the body, it does not maintain its form or shape or physical appearance - dust to dust - via "corruption", or decay.

Paul states that the dead in Christ will rise first and join Christ in the clouds. Paul also states these dead in Christ will be raised as an incorruptible entity. Paul does not say the body will be raised; The sleeping spirit is raised from its rest, or sleep. I see no connection to the previous body here, only the spirit, or soul.

In 1 Corinthians 15:52b Paul says "we shall be changed". I take this as a reference to those alive when Christ gathers His church.

As to the composition of what Christ gathers and our heavenly state, I have no idea, nor have need to know. Just being there is the goal. However, John in his Revelation did report seeing angles, beings, thrones, the one on the throne, the lamb, souls, etc. Thus I conclude in whatever state beings may be in heaven, they are visible to the other beings in heaven.

I personally view the narrative of Lazarus and the rich man as a parable and not as a description of the actual resting place of the departed spirit. If it is a literal description of the home of departed souls, then we must conclude Paul's description using sleep is incorrect.

As for Paul's ascension into heaven, I see it as no different than that of John. Both ascended, saw, remembered, and recorded. Both continued an earthly life.

As for the immortality of the spirit, or soul, it is eternal. It is never destroyed as Christ said. It exists for eternity in either heaven or hell.

Bill

Thanks brother Adam for your reply. I agree, "sleep is a state of rest" & being oblivious to everything through our nightly sleep, we can be thankful to the Lord that we still have life & breath - not so for those who've died (slept with no awakening & eventually reduced to dust). But your second paragraph statement seemed to imply that "between death & Jesus' return" we will still be 'altogether' (body, or what's left of it, & the spirit) waiting for the call.

Concerning man's spirit. My understanding that a spirit has no physical properties - that it is the essence of a person (the body being a covering for our functions & recognition). If "the spirit of man goeth upwards" & Jesus spoke of "fearing not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul", they seem to confirm that the immaterial part of us (the real 'us'), cannot be destroyed & remains accountable to the One Who gave it.

Those 'out of body' experiences, even the one you had after your accident, demonstrates that the spirit that gives life to the body, can return (& must return) for that body to resume functioning. But at death, the spirit is gone, unless, as Jesus brought back the spirit into people (e.g. Lazarus, Jairus' daughter). If the spirit goes, then to where? With ghosts & apparitions, I know nothing - maybe demonic activity or their impersonations. But then we have 1 Samuel 28:7-15, which can lead us to think of a departed soul in a resting place (OT economy). If for Samuel, then why not others who have departed? Should not our spirits leave the body & as in Paul's case have access to Heaven ( 2 Corinthians 12:1-4)? So "if the dead in Christ shall rise first", the spirit that once left it, must rejoin it. The question remains, where goes the spirit of man? If we maintain that the body sleeps, then we should also answer, where does his spirit reside? Is it still active & alert in another place or hovering over a body that is long gone? For the believer, I believe it's in Heaven.

The Bible doesn't explain everything in full detail (by design, I believe), so I can only offer my personal opinion. This is not based on scripture, but just a few possibilities.

First I think sleep is a state of rest. I believe time passes quickly, possibibly instantaneous to the person. Just like it is when you fall asleep currently and wake up the next morning. Unless you're an insomniac most people don't watch the clock minute by minute for 8 hours. It goes by quickly. People in a coma are the same. When they wake they might be disoriented and not know how much time passed. So, I think between death and Jesus's return I believe we will be in this mode. The scripture says not everyone will sleep, because they haven't died yet when Jesus returns.

It seemed like your 2nd question was about physical location of your spirit/soul. First, I'm not sure what, if any, physical properties there are of a spirit or soul. I know it can inhabit a body, but when dead, I do not know. There is really no way to know. There are thousands of accounts of people having an 'out of body' experience when near death, but 'come back' into their body. I sort of experienced something like this when I had an accident. I also have met so many people who have had other 'spiritual encounters' like with ghosts and paranormal things, that I can't deny many of these accounts and believe it could be evidence of non-sleeping spirits/souls.

There's also a theory of a waiting/resting 'place' such 'paradise' or what some call purgatory. Jesus's statement to the man on the cross that he would be there in paradise is possible that was not heaven, but a VIP waiting area to await Jesus's return and judgment. It's possible that 'where' isn't the right question when talking about a spiritual dimension, as it might not be same as the physical world.

So, these are some ideas worth considering, assuming this was what you were asking.

If I may briefly butt in here, & asking brothers Adam & Bill: what, from your understanding of the Scriptures, does the word "sleeping" imply. Of course, we know that in this case it's a euphemism for 'death' of the body. But if the body be dead, then what happens to the spirit of that person, where does it go, if it goes at all?

This point, from what I can gather, never seems to be spoken of by those who believe that a person 'fully sleeps' until the coming of Jesus to rule or at the time of judgement. Those of us, who believe that the body sleeps until the rapture of the Church, also believe that one's spirit at death, returns to the Lord Who gave it, whether to forever be with Christ or be locked awaiting judgement. So, in your understanding, where does the spirit of man go? Does it remain with the body, given the reduction of it to obliteration, whether in the earth, devoured in the sea, or reduced to ash in the flames? Or, is there a holding place for such? And where could this place be? These must be questions that you have also asked yourselves, for which I cannot find a suitable answer for. Every blessing.

Thank you, T. Levis for the verses.

Revelation 20:12-15 is an interesting set of verses and its meaning/knowledge depends on the interpretation of the keywords of:

1. Verse 12. "The DEAD, small and great" - I see this as meaning those that are non-believers only because the believers, other than those saved during the millennium, are already in heaven at the gathering of the church by Christ.

2. Verse 13. "The sea" - These words are used in the following two verses to indicate the lost mass of humanity:



Matthew 13:47-50.

Matthew 4:18-20.

3. Revelation 20:5. "The rest of the dead lived not again" - clearly a reference to the non-believers as the remaining dead would have to be those not gathered by Christ in the clouds. These dead are dead throughout the millennium.

Again, thank you for your response and the verses provided.

Thank you, Adam!

Exactly the points I was attempting to convey in my posting.

To heaven, back to the clouds with Christ, back to heaven, and to be judged just does not compute.

In my understanding the first and last scripture reference you posted say we will be 'sleeping' between death and when Jesus comes. And others say we will be judged. There are verses saying we will be judged on the same day also. To me, all that fits together and carries a lot of weight. There are isolated verses that can be used as possible evidence of going immediately to heaven or hell, but I think it's very light in comparison to the evidence for 'sleeping'. It would be quite hard to explain how all the other verses logically fit, and why someone would skip judgment to go to heaven, then back to earth, only to go back to heaven again, then be judged, after they were already in heaven and all this as a formality? All this just to comfort people at funerals? But it seems clear to me we will sleep and it will feel like only a second goes by and Jesus will be here, and time will pass instantly just like it does when sleeping. God bless.

I think the scripture reference used is Hebrews 12:1

In context Hebrews 10:35-39, Hebrews 11:1-40, continues = Hebrews 12:1-11

Hopefully these are helpful.

1 Corinthians 15:51-58

Luke 16:22-26

Hebrews 9:27

Revelation 2:11

Revelation 20:4-6

Revelation 20:12-15

Revelation 3:3-5

Revelation 21:10-27

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

There is far too much concern for "sugar-coating" death and the residence of the soul upon death and prior to the resurrection.

I have not found a single bible verse that clearly states where a Christian soul resides prior to the return of Christ to gather His church to Him in the air.

The phrase "They are smiling down on you from heaven" has no biblical verses as its proof.

Too much interpretation of the bible by some poor and simple-minded humans, when compared to the mind of God, make verses MEAN WHAT THEY WANT, NOT WHAT THE VERSE IS ACTUALLY SAYING. Examples:

1. Revelation 1:10 is said to refer to Sunday, and thus John was worshiping on Sunday and that made it OK for all Christians to observe Sunday in place of the Sabbath and ordained Sunday as the appointed day of worship for all Christians. Incorrect interpretation to fill a need for justifying Sunday worship.

Why do I say this? First, there is no verse to back up the day being Sunday; every day is "The Lord's Day". Second, neither God nor Christ designated ANY Day as the day of worship. Third, the Sabbath Day is a day of REST, not worship in a communal setting. Fourth, Revelation is a visionary experience, not a worship service.

2. Christians celebrate the resurrection of Christ always on a Sunday (thank the Roman Church for this by the way). This too is the result of humans doctoring the scriptures. The Gospels key the crucifixion to the Jewish Passover which moves across the Jewish calendar and not a set day each year.

3. The Easter sunrise worship service is not based on scripture. The Gospels clearly state Christ had risen before sunrise on what we call Sunday as the ladies never saw the resurrection, just the empty tomb and then later Christ.

Final point, if the Christian soul is immediately taken to heaven and returns with Christ for the church gathering, there will be no appearance of any Christian before the White Throne as they are previously admitted to eternity in heaven.

By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, who can know His own ways? Abiding in Him, will determine our outcome, the savior of the world!