2 Samuel
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You bring up some great questions Spike that have not only been discussed extensively on this Site but have also been the cause for much heated debate. Tithing, as with keeping the Sabbath & a meticulous adherence to the Ten Commandments are some of these subjects. But tithing is a worthy subject as, I agree, it is readily taught right from Sunday School to the pulpit. And I believe you're correct in quoting 2 Corinthians chapter 9 to rather support one's liberal & happy disposition in giving rather than the legal constraints of tithing.
Now I don't say that Tithing is wrong in itself as I find that to an enquirer or a new believer, it provides some clarity & guidance as to this mysterious function within Christ's Body. The LORD instituted it ( Deut 12:11) as an appropriate percentage of one's profit from the field, livestock, etc. which involved both for support for the Levites (& in the NT the needy of the Church), but also exercised one's heart in sacrificial giving & identifying with those that were less fortunate. I do keep it in the back of my mind when giving; realizing that giving of one's substance is not just for Church needs, but also for Missions, special projects, & to those that the Spirit lays upon one's heart.
Many church's today treat the church/congregation as a business, and this is in total opposition to Christ's teaching. The tithing, including the 10% rule is a way for the preachers to get gullible christians to feed their greed. I would not give anything to a church like this. Many church's and pastor's are getting bigger and richer everyday. I'm not going to feed a Beast like that.
I agree with you, we should give from the heart to those who are in need. We should give to People that you see IN REAL LIFE that are really in need. Those are the one's that Jesus wants us to help. Not rich church's and rich pastors to live opulent lives.
Too many Christians feed the Beast/Church and the pastors that are wolves.
Proverbs 22:9
"He that hath a bountiful eye shall be blessed; for he giveth of his bread to the poor."
What Paul tells us sounds like something Jesus would say to the people of the New Covenant. You give what is in your heart, you don't do it because of compulsion, for example, I made a thousand dollars therefore I must give 100 dollars. I must give exactly that amount and when some try to follow this alleged rule, they have a hard time giving cheerfully and generously. It becomes a mathematical equation and for most families that live paycheck to paycheck it places a burden on them. I think Jesus would rather you give with a cheerful heart what you can generously afford to give happily and also be able to pay your bills and honor the promises you made to your creditors. I know, and I am sure you do as well of people who reluctantly give because they feel they are sinning and robbing God if they don't give their (10) percent and will neglect to pay a bill with the idea that God will provide the means to pay it. God loves a cheerful giver, but many who follow the ten percent rule do not give cheerfully but the contrary, reluctantly and out of compulsion. What are your thoughts on this matter?
Then in the Protestant Reformation, it was Martin Luther who brought in the doctrine of the two kingdoms: the start of separation of the Church & State, where it was proposed that the State could not have any authority over the Church. And later (in the American context), Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter, "The Wall of Separation between Church & State" to the Danbury Baptist Assoc. to assure them that the U.S. Bill of Rights prevented the establishment of a national Church, so they had no concerns about government interference to their religious freedoms. So in that letter to the Association in 1802, Jefferson referenced the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, & I quote:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of govt. reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"; thus building a wall of separation between Church and State in the U.S.
And from that, many countries have adopted a similar position of separation. So, maybe your question is how can religion (i.e. knowledge & worship of God) be excluded from the State (politics). The above is one reason & the other, in my perception, is their rejection of anything of God to be incorporated into the law, politics & their thinking.
Aside from God's Wrath to come, we also have the 'mystery' that Paul speaks about. A Mystery in the Bible is a Truth that has not clearly been revealed beforehand. 1 Cor 15:51: the resurrection of the dead & ascension of the living. Col 1:26, 27: Christ abiding in the believer, which specifically is by His Spirit. Rom 11:25: spiritual blindness of Israel until the appointed number of Gentiles are saved. Eph 1:9, 10: both Jew & Gentile will be one in Christ. So the Rapture of the Church wasn't revealed before in its fullness (& it didn't need to be), but alluded to by Jesus ( Jn 14:1-3) & now by Paul.
1 Thes 5:1-10 speaks of the suddenness of Christ's Return (just after Paul spoke in chapter 4 on the Rapture) & therefore our readiness to meet Him. And a further reminder that God hasn't appointed the righteous to wrath (His Anger) but to obtain salvation through His Son. If the Rapture was to take place after the Tribulation, there wouldn't be much need for our readiness & its suddenness, as that could be easily calculated. For us to be ever ready is the impetus for believers to live holy lives & be in a state of readiness. To use your example of warfare: a soldier on the battlefield doesn't slip into his pyjamas & turn on soft music to lull himself to sleep, but is fully clothed in battle dress with his weapon at his side to be ready at the first warning or alarm of trouble.
And reference to Revelation 12, I am unable to share with all clarity & conviction on this portion. I realize that there are several interpretations about the woman & child & their place in the revelation to John, but knowing that this Book is filled with much imagery & not always with a progressive timeline, I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing anything conclusive & leading you or anyone down the wrong path. I think you'll understand.
Thanks for your thoughts Spike, they're appreciated & no bother at all with your questions. I've looked at what you've shared with Richard as well & something I can identify with, i.e. how people can look at the same Scripture & come up with different interpretations resulting sometimes in different applications. Unless, there is someone at the top leading the group & its branches (e.g. the cults, Exclusive Brethren), who promulgates how Scriptures are to be understood, then we have this 'diversity' of interpretations amongst believers. But with any exegesis of the Word whether from one skilled or not, the hearer has to resort back to the Word himself & determine with the Spirit's help & light being given, whether what is shared is supported in the Bible: Acts 17:10, 11.
And so to with the Rapture of the Church as another teaching that has a wide range of understanding. Each proponent of a particular belief can usually support his position quite well from Scripture, hence this debate that goes on perpetually. I hold to the pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church, as I have often presented my case in other discussions here, & from what you have stated now, I see that this is your understanding also. It is clear to me, that whenever God moves His Arm against wickedness, He does so by first moving or removing the righteous. Why would God want to punish or destroy the righteous along with the unrighteous? We have already been judged for our sins at the Cross & now declared righteous only through His Son. Is a further judgement warranted or even supported in Scripture? You've quoted this 'moving' of Lot & his family from Sodom; you also have the 'removal' of Noah & his family from the dry Earth. And it will also be for the righteous on the Earth, that salvation from God's Anger will also come to us that which will be poured upon the unbelieving.
To your other comment: yes, that's a great modern & amusing rendering of 1 Corinthians 13:1-3, though of course, the apostle Paul used Love as the preeminent 'Fruit' of the Spirit in the midst of all the 'Gifts' of the Spirit bestowed upon the Church. All His Gifts are useful for the building up of the Church, but if Love for one another & those outside her walls is absent, then all the Gifts manifested are rendered impotent. So, to use this as an example in Paul's accusation of the Corinthians, he was essentially saying that to use the Gift of Tongues without Interpretation may have left a few excited about its manifestation, but left most bereft of knowledge that God had for them. This in itself demonstrated that Love, Agape Love, was not the basis for use of this Gift, but self-gratification & self-edifying & not for the blessing of the Church ( 1 Cor 14:4-5).
Yet, I don't hold as some do, that all the Gifts (at least those such as Tongues, Healing & Miracles) have ceased. 1 Cor 13:8-10 is usually given in support that all these are no more since "that which is perfect comes": probably they're referring to the complete Word of God or the full establishment of Christ's Church when those 'spectacular' Gifts are no longer warranted. I'm not convinced about such a stance as I just don't have enough from the Word to support this. The verse could well speak of what we know & do "in part" now will one day in the future be fully known when there will be no further need of such manifestations. I do admit that we see a lot of false proofs, but can we say with all certainty that the Spirit has ceased altogether in His demonstration of His Power to the Church & the World? Some have even attributed these manifestations to the work of the Devil; this is very sad & grievous as the caution for 'blaspheming' e.g. Matthew 12:31, is when some applied the works of the Holy Spirit of God to Satan. Apart from one example that I heard of, where an actual unlearned language was spoken for the blessing of the Church, but the brother was soon pulled back down as there was in their midst one who actually spoke & understood that language. The message was satanic which blasphemed the Deity rather than glorifying him. But we need to take care as to how we view such manifestations & also in understanding the Scriptures.
That does sound very hypocritical about all those things with the person fasting. Your thoughts I also agree with. Isaiah 58 is a great chapter on true fasting. Also your perception of 1 Corinthians 13 is spot on, in your reply to Chris, and exactly as I see it as well. Love others as our Eternal Father loves us.
I also share your concern for those with the Gift of Healing. Again, I think the same principles of care & concern needs to be adopted. Especially, on the mission field where God's servants are labouring under very difficult spiritual environments where Satan has a firm grip, the moving of the Spirit in areas of healing & miracles can be seen as testimony of the Power of God & thus openness to the Gospel. Your example of Timothy's stomach & other infirmities, as well as Paul himself who had a thorn in his flesh which he besought the Lord for healing three times ( 2 Cor 12:8) are good examples of the sudden apparent cessation of this important spiritual gift among believers.
I hope that some of these thoughts are useful to the end that we consider one another in godly love yet in gentleness reprove those that err from the Truth & set them on the right path.
Yet, I don't hold as some do, that all the Gifts (at least those such as Tongues, Healing & Miracles) have ceased. 1 Cor 13:8-10 is usually given in support that all these are no more since "that which is perfect comes": probably they're referring to the complete Word of God or the full establishment of Christ's Church when those 'spectacular' Gifts are no longer warranted. I'm not convinced about such a stance as I just don't have enough from the Word to support this. The verse could well speak of what we know & do "in part" now will one day in the future be fully known when there will be no further need of such manifestations. I do admit that we see a lot of false proofs, but can we say with all certainty that the Spirit has ceased altogether in His demonstration of His Power to the Church & the World? Some have even attributed these manifestations to the work of the Devil; this is very sad & grievous as the caution for 'blaspheming' e.g. Mt 12:31, is when some applied the works of the Holy Spirit of God to Satan. Apart from one example that I heard of, where an actual unlearned language was spoken for the blessing of the Church, but the brother was soon pulled back down as there was in their midst one who actually spoke & understood that language. The message was satanic which blasphemed the Deity rather than glorifying him. But we need to take care as to how we view such manifestations & also in understanding the Scriptures.
Those are great observations Spike4187. Indeed, the 'other tongues' referred to in the Bible were known languages, but unlearned by the speaker. We need to bear in mind that the initial pouring out of spiritual gifts (from Pentecost to the early Church) was essentially for signs to unbelievers & for the establishment of this new Church: 1 Cor 14:21-22, "In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."
It seems clear that the Gift of other Tongues was for a purpose & not to be regarded as a criterion for proof of regeneration as is sometimes taught & believed. Even if that gift, which was for the convincing of the unbelievers, continued (as seen within the Churches), then there was teaching for how it was performed. 1 Cor 14:12-28 speaks about this. If the Spirit prompted one to give a word of exhortation in 'another tongue', it is clear that the Spirit will alert the one who is gifted with it or with the gift of 'Interpretation', to shed light & meaning. And yes, 'tongues' were always a language & not babble; saying that the 'babble' may be a now defunct language or a heavenly language, doesn't hold water with Scripture. Then 1 Cor 13:1 may be quoted by them: "tongues of men & angels" in support: yet Paul is illustrating that even if he had the ability to speak in earthly & heavenly languages, if love was not evident, there was no profit to having any or all the Gifts.
For someone to say "you are not saved if you don't speak in tongues" is sad. 1 Corinthians 12:1-31 explains.
1 Corinthians 13:1-13 explains the excellence of Love.
God Bless
And such a love, as depicted in 2 Samuel & as you have given a great example, in the midst of battle, is a love/friendship forged on proven trust, commitment, reliability, honesty, sound advice, faithfulness, a listening ear & a sensitive heart. Sometimes, this type of love might even go beyond the family home & goes so deep, that the friendship could even echo the verse: "..there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother." Prov 18:24b. Hope your next meeting with her may see more of the Work of God in her mind & understanding, resulting from your sharing & prayers for her.
does it say the spirit of the lord departed from saul, plus
he visited a witch at endor and committed suicide,
he was lost, he started out right but did not end right
once saved always saved lie. heb 6-4-6
6 So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day together.
I believe the other guy was lying and David saw thru it and had him killed. That lie cost him his own life.