All Discussion PAGE 111

Page 2. Ronald.

Re: Colossians 1:16. 'en auto'. In my Lexicon, I do read it as you do, that 'in Him' (en auto) is given. Though looking at 'en', other prepositions are also provided, viz. on, at, by, with. Without getting too deep into something I'm unqualified in (leave that with Giannis or Jesse), the explanation given for using 'en' for this verse is, "of that in which other things are contained and upheld, as their cause and origin: i.e., in God. In God is found the cause why we live, Acts 17:28; in Christ, as the divine hypostatic, in him resides the cause why all things were originally created, Colossians 1:16 (the cause both instrumental and final as well)." Very wordy for sure, but the way I read it, is that if we see Colossians 1:16 as "For (in) him (Jesus) were all things created", then 'in Jesus (the Divine Hypostatic = the underlying reality or substance), God has allowed all created things to find its origin & cause'. Then could it be understood that if Jesus was the origin & cause of creation, would the KJB be wrong by its translation, "For (by) him were all things created"?

And finally, Hebrews 1:3,4. I can agree with you in part: that He was "made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they". Clearly, this comparison of Jesus to the angelic host was as a result of His Coming & completed Work of Salvation - and of course rising into Glory & seated at the Father's right Hand. And so the Angels of God worship Him (v6). So, now to the word 'made'. You wrote, "He was made, means He was not before He completed what His Father sent Him to do." Again, we appeal to the Greek (& to our brethren here), the word here is 'genomenos' (having become/come into being/happen). Could our KJB have used a word ('made') that does not correctly reflect the original? Loosely, 'made' or 'becoming' can be similar in usage, if made is not meant as 'created' but as 'changed in position/rank'. Onto Page 3.

Page 1.

Once again Ronald, thank you for your responses & don't feel pressured to respond for lack of time or opportunity - I too have to deal with some daily mundane tasks that rob me from giving more time here on these pages.

Re: John 1:1. The 'beginning' that John refers to here, is in my understanding, of eternity past where time is irrelevant. If the rest of this passage was not given, I could suppose that 'beginning' might apply to whatever one deems as a best fit. But the following words qualify that 'eternity' is spoken of: this Word was both God & with God (Who of course resides in eternity). The subject here is the Word, & this Word (from God & John already understands this Word to apply to Jesus he is now witness to) was instrumental in creation, holder of Life, which is to be the "Light of men". If no more was written, then we could still apply the 'Word' to the Mind of God & His utterances, & to no one or anything else. But John clarifies that this 'Word was made Flesh & dwelt among us". So, with all this detail, I can only believe that God's Word was in eternity as God is, & from that Word within God, the worlds were created; & then at the right time, God took His Word & brought forth One that would reflect Him in the flesh & perform His Will for mankind.

Re: Colossians 1:15-18. "Firstborn", as stated in another post, I understand the word to apply to the rank, pro-eminence, & privileges that rightly come to a firstborn child and not to Jesus being the firstborn (or beginning of creation). I don't see this reference here applying to a 'new creation/re-birth' or any position within all of God's Creation, simply because the whole passage shows this firstborn being the Creator of all things, for Himself, & He holds them all together. If this is not so, then God created a Creator to create these things, which then places John 1:1-14 into question where God's Word was already a characteristic of God & not received at a later time. To Page 2.

Jesus told the Woman by the Well when she said We Worship in the Mountains and You Worship at Jerusalem. Basically He said, Throw that mess out the back door, throw Religion and Theology, Isms, Doctrines, man-made theories down the drain. And just Worship God in Spirit and Truth this is Whom He is seeking. Why does Man try to complicate things a child can understand. You can read this Bible to a Child and they will tell you what it says. But a Adult will have 10 different opinions. In Revelations 3 Vs. 7 - 10 . : Jesus said I open doors no Man can shut and shut doors no Man can open. He speaks of a Great Tribulation that will come upon not Europe, the Middle East, Israel but the whole World. And the Church at Philadelphia ( our time frame ) has been found faithful. And before all of the Events of the Plagues , Vials, Bowls, calamities even begin in the Book of Revelations. God tells the Church at Philadelphia He has set a Open Door for Them. A Escape Hatch, a Red Sea miracle. And what is that door ? It's called The Rapture. Its amazing to Me how little The Rapture is even being Preached about . I have a Message on Our Channel " Biscoe House of Mercy YouTube" titled " I Still Believe in The Rapture" . I would encourage People to watch it . Not because I'm on it . But because there's so much Scripture and Word Involved there. Line upon Line Precept Upon Precept Word upon Word.

Reverend Michael Ray Dorsey

I was reading the Comments made about John 3 V 13 . And how so many were implying that only Jesus has been to or ascended to Heaven. One comment said it's a double edged sword and basically said you got cut . But often common sense is neglected. Ephesians 4 V.9 :: Says before Christ Ascended He first Descended during the 3 days that Man thought He was dead from the cross. And what did He do ? He took Captivity Captive. He emptied out the Paradise section in the Heart of the Earth . Everyone from Adam to the Thief on the Cross who said Remember Me , every righteous Saint of every generation. And took them where ? He ascended with Them. He took Them to the 3rd Heaven. Now when a Born again Believer dies . We don't have to go down into a gulf between the TORMENTS of Hell and Paradise in the Center of the Earth. Now We can go directly to be with Jesus. I think it's time to shout some !! If You want to lay in the ground or hang around here , then have at it. Whether by Rapture or Death I plan on being in Heaven.

Reverend Michael Ray Dorsey

Angel? Re.19:6 & 9-10:

6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude,and as the voice of many waters,and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying,Alleluia:for the Lord GOD Omnipotent reigneth.

9And he saith unto me, Write,Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb...

10And I fell at his feet to worship him.And he said unto me,See thou do it not:I am thy fellowservant,and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus:worship GOD:for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Angel? Numbers 9-31:

And GOD came unto Balaam,and said,What men are these with thee?

10Balaam said unto GOD, Balak the son of Zippor,king of Moab, hath sent unto me,saying,

11Behold,there is a people come out of Egypt,which covers the face of the earth:come now,curse me them;peradventure I shall be able to overcome them,and drive them out.

12And GOD said unto Balaam,You shalt not go with them;You shalt not curse the people:for they are blessed.

13And Balaam rose up in the morning,and said unto the princes of Balak,Get you into your land: the Lord refuses to give me leave to go with you.

15And Balak sent yet again princes more honourable than they.

16And they came to Balaam,and said:Thus says Balak the son of Zippor,Let nothing,I pray thee,hinder thee from coming unto me:

17I will promote thee unto very great honour,and I will do whatsoever you say unto me:come therefore,I pray thee,curse me this people.

18And Balaam said unto the servants of Balak,If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold,I cannot go beyond the word of the Lord my GOD,to do less or more.

22And GOD's anger was kindled because he went:and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary against him...

26The angel of the Lord went further,and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.

31Then the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam,and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way,and his Sword drawn in his hand:..

"Richard H Priday"

What my Lord JESUS said is that ' they which shall be accounted WORTHY to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels (Example: Genesis 19:1-4. Take a look); and are the children of GOD, being the children of the resurrection.

And Paul Apostle revealed: Philippians 3:20-21:

20 For our conversation is in heaven(heaven? Ephesians 1:3-8. Take a look. Are you in heaven or not? Or you don't know?); from whence also WE LOOK for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21 Who shall CHANGE OUR VILE BOVY(this is not a magic, this is a process, it is(will be) worked) that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the WORKING whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.

And Paul said more: 1 Corinthians 15:24-27 and 51-55:

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the Kingdom to GOD( Revelation 11:15-18), even the Father; when he shall have PUT DOWN ALL RULE AND ALL AUTHORITY and POWER.

25 For JESUS must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all BE CHANGED, (not by magic, but a process)

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (in the last seven years of the world of Devil- Revelation 11:15 and 18.Take a look), at the last Trump ( 1Thessalonians 4:16 combined with Daniel 12:1-3.Take a look):for the Trumpet shall sound( Revelation 11:15) and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Hi Chris,

Colossians 1:15-18 as in John 1:1 what beginning is John writing about, this gives a different understanding, In Colossians what creation is Paul writing about if we look at it as the start of all creation, the angels the counsels of heaven as we see in Job 38, they were before this earth or is Paul writing about the new creation. Is Paul referring to Jesus before He was crucified? Or is Paul referring to the risen Christ? In Christ is the resurrected Christ not the Christ when He first came.

One other thing and Giannis can let us know if I am correct or not in verse 16, by Him, the Greek is en auto meaning in Him as we see in 2 Corinthian 5:17 Ephesians 1:4,9 Colossians 2:6 to be in the risen Christ. Paul is talking about the new creation. 2 Corinthians 5:16-19 to be in Christ is to be a new creature/creation and reconciliation, this is this world and in heaven as we see things in heaven is as bad as on this earth and Jesus Christ is to make all new.

Hebrews 1:3-4 Jesus was made much better than the angels, this after He was totally obedient died on the cross and raised from the dead and ascended to heaven above all that is in heaven and earth. and in Him all will be made new. He was made means He was not before He completed what His Father sent Him to do. Matt. 28:18 John 3:35 John 5:26-27 John 6:39 what Jesus did and had was given to Him from the Father.

I know this is short, I may be away for a while but hope to reply more soon.

God bless,

RLW

Hello Richard

The Ortodox believe in the post trib rapture. They don't use the term "the rapture of the saints" but always talk about "the 2nd presence of Christ". Also they believe that the millenium is a figurative period of time which actually started when Jesus ascended to Heaven and will finish at the White Throne Judgement. All events described in that millenium are figurative for what is occuring from Jesus' time till the very end.

About St Gregory the Theologian I don't know what he tought. But from what I read in your comment I tend to think that probably what he had in mind is what Paul tells us in Rom 819-23, "19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body"

I have to point out that the grk doesn't say "creature" but "creation" in all the above verses. And all interpretations I have read so far is that it means the whole creation, everything that has been created, the whole world, land, living beings, everything.

Which leaves me to think that the creation which is now in decay/corruption/wear will be libarated at that time, probably meaning that everything will be in a glorified stable condition in the new earth we will be living on. And I believe that "the blood and flesh" is for people, not for the rest of material creation.

About "deification" I don't want to say any opinion, I am very sceptical about it, This is actually something it is never discussed in my church.

God Bless.

St. Gregory the Theologian says that we are fully involved with the material creation by virtue of our physical existence, and that the material created reality is deeply involved with us. If we move to the direction of deification, our human nature, progressing towards God, will somehow carry the created material world with it. Quoted from article from website Orthodox Church of America (oca.org on orthodoxy section/the-orthodox-faith)

This seems to be contradictory to the statement that flesh and blood can't enter the Kingdom of God but I suppose it could fit in if they actually believed in a Rapture event of the living (which I doubt they do unless a Post Millennial event).

Hello Richard

Yes, the belief of the Eastern Orthodox church about Jesus is He didn't exist for ever but at a time before the creation of the woorld He was born/came out of Father God. The amended Nicene Creed which was a statement of faith states among others "(I believe) and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (ons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;". That statement was came out in 381 AD during the first ecumenical(universal) council of Constantinouple. So it was what all christians believed at that time. The church was still united at that time. The Roman Catholics also use it (with an extra addition about the Holy Spirit). So this is what the Catholics believe as well. They also believe that all saved people will be somehow "deified by grace". Probably they are using John 17:2, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:..." and 1 John 3:2, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.". But John here says that we don't know what we will be, so that "be like Him" may not refer to Jesus' nature. Anyway, we know by part as the scripture says.

I am sory about your wife. Was she remary in an Orthodox church? Yes they allow as many as 3 mariages. Sadly they say a lot of excuses about that, thus canceling the Word of God.

Also I don't understand what you are saying in "The other weird thing is how we are supposedly in our material bodies somehow tied in some mysterious way to the creation like it is still happening or something if I get that right.". If you like explain that clearer please. God blesses.

We can understand what it meant by double portion that Elisha received by keeping his mentor in sights while he ascended. One portion was the spirit of Christ with which Elijah served God; God had set him three tasks which Elisha completed from where Elijah had left off; the second portion was on his own right as the double for the Son. It pleased the Father that in Jesus should all his fulness dwell. So Elisha and Elijah's service was made perfect in the Son. So there are no minor or major prophets as some Bible Scholars seem to divide God's servants. All are absorbed in the single measure of Jesus Christ as the Man component in the Fellowship of God with Man.

Yes Oseas, I believe Jesus has returned to the Throne in Heaven at His ascension and can be worshiped as King and God since Pentecost.

Carleton

Thank you for your reply.

I started my post quoting Esther 5:1 and making some important highlights, and I wrote: "1Now it came to pass on the third day(see John 2:19),that Esther put on her royal apparel(see Revelation19:7-8)and stood in the inner court of the king's house over against the king's house(ref. Revelation 11:2),and the king sat upon his royal throne in the royal house,over against the gate of the house.

The main point of my post is the comparison with the true Church of the Lord JESUS-the body of JESUS Christ- the current Temple of GOD in this current Covenant, so, we must discern that we are in the beginning of the first century of the 3rd Day (2024 AD), that is in the turn exactly from the sixth to the seventh and last GOD's Day.

Well, JESUS promised to rise up the Temple in the 3rd Day-the Temple of GOD-the Church of the Lord- John 2:19. And exactly from now on, from this same wonderful moment, "let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife must made herself ready". Revelation 19:8 says propheticaly: And to her -to the Church of the Lord- His body- was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. The Word is GOD, self-executing, understand?

Furthermore, JESUS is already sat on His Throne, as it is described in Revelation chapters 4 and 5, and GOD the Father is already in His rest as He planned to do since the beginning, it in the exactly and current seventh Day. And he sais: Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. These are the true sayings of GOD.

The Word is GOD, self-executing

Be careful and get ready - Matthew 25:6-12 will LTERALLY fulfill itself.

Why thank you Richard, I appreciate your timely response... And your view on this subject! I pray you have a Blessed day!!

Please pray for my neck, I have neck pain and there's a lump in my spine and I need prayer for healing and alignment of my spine please. Thank you all and God bless you.

Good Morning Oseas, The Book of Esther gives much insight on how a King cannot change His own decree. Sin is death. However the King being the most High can provide a way of escape of death by holding out His Scepter (proceeding from Himself), Jesus Christ the Son. Like Esther we can approach the King by Faith to touch the hem of His garment (Scepter) and be saved from the ill will of the dragon who only knows death and whom faces death eternal in hell. The Holy Spirit provides the confirmation that Life was granted as happened in the end of the book of Esther.

Morning meditations.

Esther 5:

1Now it came to pass on the third day(see John 2:19),that Esther put on her royal apparel(see Revelation19:7-8)and stood in the inner court of the king's house over against the king's house(ref.Re.11:2),and the king sat upon his royal throne in the royal house,over against the gate of the house.

2And...the king saw Esther the queen standing in the court,that she obtained favour in his sight: and the king held out to Esther the golden sceptre that was in his hand.So Esther drew near(the King), and touched the top of the sceptre.-Hallelujaah!

3Then said the king:What wilt you,queen Esther?and what is thy request?it shall be even given thee to the half of the kingdom.

4 Esther said,If it seem good unto the king,let the king and Haman come this day unto the banquet I have prepared for him.

5Then the king said,Cause Haman to make haste,that he may do as Esther has said.So the king and Haman came to the banquet that Esther had prepared.

6And the king said unto Esther at the banquet:,What is thy petition?and it shall be granted thee:and what is thy request?even to the half of the kingdom it shall be performed.

7Esther said, My petition and my request is;

8If I have found favour in the sight of the king,and if it please the king to grant my petition,and to perform my request,let the king and Haman come to the banquet that I shall prepare for them,and I will do to morrow as the king has said.

Esther 6

1 On that night could not the king sleep,he commanded to bring the book of records of the chronicles;and they were read before the king.

2 It was found written Mordecai had told of Bigthana and Teresh,TWO of the king's chamberlains,keepers of the door,who sought to LAY HAND ON THE KING.

3The king said,What honour and dignity hath been done to Mordecai for this?Then said the king's servants :...There is nothing done for him.

4The king said,Who is in the court?Now Haman was come into the outward court of the king's house,to speak unto the king to hang Mordecai...

Hi Chris,

Thank you for your reply, it maybe later tonight before I can reply I know we're hours apart.

God bless,

RLW

please remember me and my family today in your prayers I have a important meeting today at work pray it goes well

Thank you Momsage for wanting to continue in discussion with us. This present thread on the Deity of Christ (was He in Heaven, in the Person of the Godhead prior to Him being revealed on Earth, or was He a new separate creation of God & brought into the World at Bethlehem) is already in discussion in this thread. Please feel to join in. If you want to pursue those unanswered questions or verses that you have concerning the Sabbath, then probably you could start a new thread/comment would be best (seeking answers/comments), so that it won't become completely lost in the volume of comments on this other subject here. Blessings.

"Elijah and Elisha" (2 of 2)

In the previous post "Single Measurement" the quote "Saints redeemed from the earth are interchangeable because new earth knows no John or Andrew but is under the generic name an angel." explains this phenomenon. God has decreed the day for his Son and it pleased him that all his fulness should in him dwell. Who was Elijah but a double for the Son? As a Tishbite he shall show certain characteristics before his death. Elijah the Tishbite came from Gilead. Before giving charge to Elisha he goes through Gilgal, Bethel, Jericho and Jordan, signifying from his cradle to 'crossing the Jordan' euphemism for death. Elisha sticks close to him all the while. As his associate he was his double through the word of God and ministry for the other. By principle of Association all are co-heirs with Christ the firstborn of all creation." But Jesus is associated with Nazareth but as the Son he reveals his own signature to the body of evidence as the Word become flesh. On the cross, "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."( Luke 23:46)

This every one who is called has his own characteristics, of his place and time but in terms of the will of the Father he had adopted them all without exception on the basis each one has become part of the single measure which is his Son, the Man component.

Thanks Giannis for sharing in this. I can agree to Romans 8:29, " that he might be the firstborn among many brethren"; that clearly 'prototokos' here refers to Christ being our 'Forerunner' leading those who are saved by His Blood, into the new Birth He has provided for us; i.e. we follow Jesus, Who is the Firstborn among us.

Yet, with Colossians 1:15, "the firstborn of every creature" (or, creation), doesn't seem to imply that believers are the object; though you (or, your Church) feels it does: "that first born of all creation means that Jesus was the first child of God among all other born(again) children (us, God's children)". It's interesting that 'creation' is used here, which doesn't seem to easily bring Christ's Church into its meaning.

That was interesting about the usage of 'arche', that it could be applied to rulers, principalities, etc. I checked your reference Revelation 3:14, and though the application of 'arche' is defined as "that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause", your other references ( Colossians 1:16 & Ephesians 3:10) certainly apply to 'principalities/rulers'. And other references are given in support of this: Luke 12:11, Titus 3:1, Ephesians 1:21, Colossians 2:10, & others. So thank you for giving us more to consider in this matter.

Elijah and Elisha (1 of 2)

Elisha doubles for Elijah his mentor who was given three tasks (1 Ki.19:15-16) which are in a flux and Elisha completes them. In terms of the works they were bonded into the service of God, the older setting the events in motion while the younger finishes the job as done. This is a kangaroo Association as we see the Gospel of God becomes Gospel of Christ in the Son of man.

(See entry under D-Day)

The Spirit sets the two prophets in the narrative to give us an insight into the manner God created the heaven and the earth in the beginning, which are accomplished by the Son in the end times. Time delineating the beginning and ending is reconstituted Time so the Day of creation (Ge.2:4) are not to be confused by earth time. Consequently double portion of Elijah's spirit going to Elisha must be seen analogous to God the Spirit becoming the Spirit of Christ. The same Spirit but shades of meaning based on Truth changing focus. Thus we consider God as the Father of mercies as far as holiness is considered but when we speak of salvation offered through the Son we know it as grace and truth. Consequently worshipping God in spirit in truth the emphasis is on obedience the Son set as an example.

Spirit of Christ speaks of the word that has gone forth from from God the Father (Is.55:11). It has its glory when Prophet Elijah raises the dead son of the widow of Zarephath (1 Ki.17) and Elisha in his day restores to life the son of the woman of Shunem. (2 Ki.4). Both prophets by faith prove what God had begun and shall be fulfilled in his Son. Jesus in his day restores life of the widow's son in Nain. All these are done in different times and place. The power of the word that the Spirit of Christ signifies is Alpha and Omega aspect of Jesus Christ.

Elijah the Tishbite came from Gilead. Before giving charge to Elisha he goes through Gilgal, Bethel, Jericho and Jordan, signifying from his cradle to 'crossing the Jordan' euphemism for death.

God Bless ;)

Thank YOU LORD for YOUR word that gives us YOUR perfect will in our motives and practices as we await YOUR return to earth.

May we be be prayerful for our leadership in DC and all the local authority YOU have ordained and placed in offices. Romans 13:1-3

LORD, bless YOUR saints to be powerful witnesses unto the lost and hard hearted.

GOD to shine HIS face on the works of our hands, and our prayers as we worship and praise CHRIST JESUS daily.

January 30, 2024

Please pray for Annjane' O (pronounced Ann-juh-nay) to come to repentance of her selfishness around familial decisions and seek Jesus when it comes to her family as a whole and not just what "she" thinks is best. Pray that she shows legitimate concern for others when doing things and making decisions, as it not only impacts her life but may negatively impact the lives of others, especially her children. Pray that she stays out of self and in Christ Jesus our lord and savior. Pray that she asks the Holy Spirit for guidance in the name of Christ Jesus. Pray that she steps away from the ungodly people that are influencing her and diluting her view of who God is, as these people are teaching her to place herself and her will on the same level as God himself. Pray that she submits her will and her life into Jesus Christs hands. In Jesus' name Amen.

I suppose a question thread isn't kosher with a sequel. Anyway; there are many scriptures that can be used to point out each part of the TULIP acronym; for instance T-Total Depravity We could quote Jeremiah 17:9; O-Unconditional Election ( Ephesians 1:4); L-Limited Atonement ( John 10:26-27); I-Irresistable Grace ( Acts 9:3-6 the "Damascus Road" experience) and finally P-Perseverance of the Saints ( Romans 8:30).

Many of these themes are interchangeable with the verses quoted. The terminology isn't the greatest; as people can indeed grieve the Spirit as scripture indicates. I believe limited atonement is also the hardest thing to prove; I would say that "Effectual grace" is a much better term.

I wrote what I did in the first posting on purpose as many tend to have a sort of pride about which Reformer is their favorite or obsess on the subject making a doctrine be above the author and finisher of our faith Christ Himself. We can't fit our theological premise neatly with all scriptures in human understanding. I take; for example the politically incorrect stance that free will doesn't intimidate God with His predestination plans. There are distinct advantages to understanding these doctrines however.

1. It explains why those in our families and others we are close to and hear the Gospel for years never become believers.

2. It shows how God draws His elect from before a confession of faith (preserves our lives until coming to salvation) for believers.

3. It allows us to "test ourselves to see if we are in the faith" ( 2 Cor. 13:5) so that we can indeed claim His promises as something we actually possess because of a saving faith rather than "decisional regeneration" a term where people make a confession but their hearts are not in it.

I mentioned on an old posting how a small group split because God grants repentance ( 2 Tim. 2:25; etal). Some didn't want to preach the need to repent; although God grants the desire we must bear fruit and change our ways

Page 2. Ronald

True, we may not conclusively know the Form He took in Heaven, whether as the Word within God's Person (just as the Spirit in God was sent out), or as another Form outside of God yet closely connected to Him. The issue here is, whether Jesus existed (in some Form) prior to His appearing on Earth. If not, what do we do with such verses as given here? Can we really reinterpret them in any other way? Is that even possible? And we could add Micah 5:2 (a coming Ruler not going forth from Bethlehem, but from eternity), John 3:13 (Who was in Heaven, coming down from Heaven), John 6:38 (come from Heaven), John 8:56-58 (Jesus existed even before Abraham), Philippians 2:5-11 (His equality with God, but laid it aside to come & serve man), & Hebrews 1:1-3 (through Jesus God made the worlds).

I've understood your comments on Jesus' Life & Death as per His earthly sojourn. But unless we can understand Who this Jesus really is (i.e. whether a Creation of God to fulfil His Plans on Earth, or God Himself, He Who was from the beginning), then the substance of this Mystery can never be resolved. That is why textual examination is so important, especially when we can see other Scriptures that confirm our understanding. I apologize for not referring to your other comments (e.g. the soul/spirit, firstborn, etc), but wanted to keep this short & focus on Jesus before His appearance on Earth. GBU.

Page 1.

Thank you Ronald for taking the trouble to respond in detail. I will try to focus on certain Scriptures that are vital in this discussion, and keeping it short, knowing that we do read them differently. And I also note that you believe that Jesus & the Plan of Salvation was in God's Mind from the beginning, yet Jesus' appearance was not in God/with God, but on Earth.

Colossians 1:15-17: "Who (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him (Jesus), and for him (Jesus): And he (Jesus) is before all things, and by him (Jesus) all things consist."

Of course, I've added Jesus' Name to emphasize that this passage is about Him. Let's then assume that Jesus had no beginning, except in God's Mind & Plan & at Jesus' entrance at Bethlehem, how then does this passage in Colossians read to you? Of course, it would make perfect sense if the passage speaks about God creating & holding together by His Power, but unfortunately, it doesn't. Therefore, if you agree that it isn't God being spoken about but Jesus, how does Jesus do all this creating, holding together in place, & done for His Sake, if He was just a thought in God's Mind & had not yet made an appearance?

You also quoted 1 John 1:1-3: "seems to point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, this is a personal experience of the author and peers". It could indeed, except John writes "That which was from the beginningwhich was with the Father, and was manifested unto us". So we need to focus on such declarations, even the John 17:5 one of Jesus endued with God's Glory even before the worlds. The question in my mind is: from such verses, is it correct to believe that Jesus had no beginning other than at Bethlehem?

To Page 2.

Thanks Giannis.

Good night and God bless.