All Discussion PAGE 113

Hi Richard, Praying for this possible new living arrangement.

Thanks brother Jesse. I'm guessing that Momsage would be open to others writing in, from her comment to me. And of course, I would be interested in what she learns concerning the Trinity & why the speaker believes that this doctrine is erroneous. Blessings.

Page 4.

So Who is this Jesus? A creation from Mary's womb, another deity in Heaven alongside God, or from the Person of the One God Who was the Expression of God's Love through His Life & His Death. I believe that God sent forth that part of Himself, as He does with His Spirit, to become man "for the suffering of death" ( Hebrews 2:9). And now Jesus receives the worship as only God must receive ( Revelation 5:11-14), when prior to His incarnation, all Glory was His within the Person of the One God ( John 17:5).

Sorry for this long post - you had posed many good questions, which I'm unsure that fully dealt with your expectations. Blessings.

Page 3.

Your second question: "If Jesus was preexisting, an immortal being, God the son. How can an immortal being die?" There are varying beliefs about Jesus' position in Heaven prior to His incarnation. I rather simply accept John 1:1-18, John 14:10,11, John 16:27,28, 1 John 5:7, that Jesus came forth from God. Did He come out as a Divine Being in the presence of God, to be made a human for the sake of death, or did God take His Own Word & give Him flesh for this very purpose? We don't have a problem of God sending out His Spirit & the Spirit's indwelling in every believer (can He even be dissected?), but to send His Word out, clothe Him in a body, unnerves many.

"How can an immortal being die? How can God be tempted...How can God die?" God is Spirit - He is Immortal - He can never die. No one, having a spirit from God, can die - the body will perish, but who can destroy the spirit which cannot be touched by age or man's devices? But if the immortal is given a body, as Jesus received, or even as we also have to house our spirits, then the body will die but the spirit lives on. Can God take on flesh? A mystery no human can fully fathom, but truly "a body hast thou prepared me" ( Hebrews 10:5-7, taken from Psalm 40:6-8). So Jesus could be tempted & could die whilst in the body, and so in His complete identification with sinful men in need of salvation, Philippians 2:6-8 reminds us:

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." "thought it not robbery" = Jesus didn't grasp onto/retain His equality with God, but 'emptied Himself' ('ekenosen'), laying aside His Glory, to become a Man, obedient to death that which was the Father's Plan.

Page 2.

'arche' = 'something that was in the beginning: a first principle; a substance or primal element; an actuating principle (as a cause). If we take the first meaning of 'something having a beginning', then your suggestion might be valid. If, as 'an actuating principal - a causation', then we read the verse as, 'These things saith the Amen.the One to cause or initiate all of God's Creation'; that Jesus Himself wasn't God's first Creation, but the cause or reason for creation, i.e. the 'He Who initiated the beginning of creation', being the 'Reason for creation's beginning'.

'proto-tokos' = 'first-to bring forth'. Here, in Colossians 1:15,18, Jesus is seen as both the "firstborn of every creature and the firstborn from the dead". I see 'firstborn' here, not with a biological view, but in Christ's position; or else, He was certainly not the 'firstborn from the dead', as some have been brought to life from the dead prior to His Resurrection. So, it's best to read these verses as Jesus' station & rank that remains, as always, above every human being & all of creation, whether in their creation, birth or death. And as a side-note, we must be aware that the JW conveniently changes 'prototokos' to 'protokitises': from 'first to bring forth' to 'first to be created': which of course supports the idea that Jesus was a created Being.

Page 1.

If I may respond to your good questions brother Ronald.

a. Revelation 3:14, "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". I think you're stating that Jesus existed in Heaven (i.e. before the rest of God's creative Work done by Him) & then came to Earth as a babe. Apologies if I've misunderstood, as this understanding is at variance with the general belief by the non-trinitarian, that Jesus made His first appearance as a human & He had no existence before that.

True, there were two 'Adams': "The first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy: the second man (Adam) is the Lord from heaven" ( 1 Corinthians 15:47). Is Paul suggesting that this Jesus, before all creation, was also the Lord from Heaven or mistaken, that He was a sub-Lord? Then the question, 'if Jesus was created by God before other of His created Works, what was His position in Heaven - was He God's Assistant in His Works or the Lord Who shared (partook) in God's Glory' ( John 17:5) - or maybe God created another god (but how would that work for God cannot be created, or else the created one can never be a supreme God?).

And Jesus must have been immortal as all heavenly beings are & all humans are (having an immortal spirit that can never die). So, maybe some clarification on how you understand this matter. Then back to Revelation 3:14: we can also bring in Colossians 1:15-17: Jesus, as One from God, stands then as He is now, the Image of the invisible God, Who not only created all things "by Him (Himself), but for Him (Himself)". If He then is "the firstborn of every creature" (v15) & "the firstborn from the dead" (v18), this might indicate that from examination of this word, 'firstborn' (prototokos), we can understand this "beginning of God's Creation & firstborn of every creature". And also in Revelation 3:14, the "beginning" of the creation of God: 'arche', from which we get words like 'arche-type'. Onto Page 2.

Jesse

You are welcome.

GOD bless

Oseas,

Thank you for your post to brother Carleton and myself, but I am not sure that I am understanding what you are saying here? I may have to read through this a few more times. Some things take me a little longer to figure out, sorry!

There were many Jewish people in the Church of Rome,and the Apostle Paul in his universal epistle to the Church of Rome, he wrote: Romans 2:5-16:

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the Day of WRATH and revelation of the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT of GOD;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, INDIGNATION and WRATH,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew FIRST, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew FIRST, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with GOD

12 For as many as have sinned WITHOUT Law(the Gentiles)shall also perish without Law: and as many as have sinned in the Law(the Jews) shall be Judged by the Law;

13 (For not the hearers of the Law are just before GOD, but the doers of the Law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the Law, do by nature the things contained in the Law, these, having not the Law, are a Law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the Law written in their hearts(Hallelujah!!), their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another-)

16 In the Day when GOD shall Judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (The Day arrived-Woe of the inhabiters of the Earth)

The Word is GOD, self-executing

Hello Chris,

I just read your post and wanted to say that I was just about to post a comment similar to yours but was not sure how to say what I wanted to say because it seems to be getting more and more difficult to post comments lately without someone becoming offended in some way.

I also was a little surprised that you were asked to engage in further discussion by momsage for the same reason. Of the two topics listed (sabbath and KJB), I was following along on the KJB topic for a couple of weeks and holding back from engaging in discussion because of the comment you are probably referring to which was, and I quote: "I don't discuss in this forum anymore with anyone except two of my friends." I took that literally, and it was because of those words that I chose not to engage in discussion on that topic with momsage.

I realize that momsage will probably read this since every post is viewable by all. That is okay. I have no hard feelings towards anyone on this forum. Besides having many brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus here, I also consider everyone here as a friend. But what I would like to know from momsage is if she is truly open for discussion with anyone else on this forum? I do agree with momsage about argumentative conversations. I do not enjoy those either. But friendly open-minded discussions should be welcomed.



Blessings to both you and momsage. I do look forward to reading your further discussion, if the Lord leads you both in that direction!!!

Mat.5:5 -Blessed are the meek:for they shall inherit the earth.

Re.5:10 -And hast made us unto our GOD kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Jo.17:16&11- 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 11 And now I am no more in the world,but these are in the world,and I come to thee.Holy Father,keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me,that they may be one,as we are.

Jo.17:6-8 & 18

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy Word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

John 17:15&24- ->24 Father,I will that they also, whom thou has given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou has given me: for thou loved me before the foundation of the world. 15 I pray not that thou should take them out of the world, but that thou should keep them from the evil.

Re. 11:15-19

15...The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead,that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19And the temple of GOD opened in heaven

Hello Momsage. Thank you for your comment. Firstly, I was a little surprised that you addressed me, since, as I recall, you made it clear that you would only correspond with GiGi & Jema. Hence I, & probably others haven't corresponded with you, particularly on the Sabbath-keeping topic. But maybe you meant it to apply to that topic alone & not others subjects.

Secondly, I believe you read my comment to S. Spencer incorrectly. Actually, I am very interested in lengthy back-and-forth discussions to reach a conclusion, rather than wanting "to quit" a discussion. I have found that discussions end abruptly, to my dismay, but not without a variety of reasons that the other person might have for doing so. Thus the limitations of such a discussion page come to the fore.

Using your example of the vibrant discussion you had recently on the Sabbath: obviously, I can't comment on other folk's comments or their not giving you the answers you required, yet I can say this of myself: if I recall, I did give limited comment on this topic, and my belief on the Sabbath, indeed the whole Decalogue, is generally at variance with other folk. What you sought were verses from us to refute the necessity of Sabbath-keeping, & I believe some were given you, concerning the Lord's Day observance (first day of the week), that our Sabbath-rest is found in Jesus alone, & maybe other references. These, I noted, you rejected. So what's next? In one sense, a stale-mate has been reached & we can proceed no further. Or else, we need to go back to the root, or core, of the matter to learn about this 'problematic' Decalogue; and this matter is found with the receivers of the Law & its intended outcome and how, if at all, it affects Gentiles.

The 'Trinity' debate has appeared on these pages for as long as I've been here, & of course, much before that. So yes, please share your understanding of it; and I believe bro. Ronald has given us some thoughts to consider & respond to. GBU

Tunney

Amen.

Praised be our GOD and Father

John 10:14-18

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I LAY MY LIFE DOWN for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold (the Gentiles peoples): them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

17 Therefore doth MY FATHER LOVES ME, because I LAY DOWN MY LIFE, that I MIGHT TAKE IT AGAIN.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I LAY IT DOWN OF MYSELF. I HAVE POWER TO LAY IT DOWN, and I HAVE POWER TO TAKE IT AGAIN. This COMMANDMENT have I received of my Father.

Hey S Spencer,

I will send this to you as I feel we consider each other as brothers. I thought I was clear when I ended my conversation about the Trinity, but it does not sound like that is not understood with the comments I have read.

I will ask this question not to stump anyone, but it is one I have not ever answered.

First, I would like to say Jesus was before any creation, He is the beginning of creation, and all was created after Him and through Him, but it was in God's plan of creation that Jesus being appointed heir to, Heb 1:1-4. Jesus was the beginning of creation Rev. 3:14 and in the fullness of time He was conceived, Ephesians 1:9-10. There were two Adams and Jesus is the last Adam both Adams who were men who came into this world without sin. The first sinned and the last lived perfect totally obedient to the Father.

Question, Jesus was conceived and brought forth the only begotten Son of God to die for the sins of mankind. If Jesus was preexisting, an immortal being, God the son. How can an immortal being die? How can God be tempted, James 1:13, but it is clear Jesus was tempted as we are, Hebrews 4:15 and He died shedding His blood to cover our sins.

Can God die? If not, how are our sins covered? Could the works of the devil be undone if God fulfilled the law that was made for man? The law was made for man and a man had to live without sin to fulfill it. What is the meaning of Acts 2:24 if Jesus was not a man?

Sorry to send this to you but anyone can answer, Love you brother.

God bless,

RLW

Galatians 2:20 my life verse! Praise the LORD.

GOD blesses and shines HIS face on all who are on this platform.

January 28, 2024

Jesse and Carleton

Meditation that brings you to Psalms 45,especially Psalms 45:6-7.

Speaking of JESUS(Ps.45:6-7)-->In Hebrews 1:8, GOD the Father says unto the Son: Thy throne,O God, is for ever and ever:a sceptre of righteousness is the Sceptre of thy Kingdom.(It will LITERALLY be fulfilled from now on: Revelation 11:15 combined with 1Thessalonians 4:16, about the archangel Michael who comes first,comes before JESUS in LITERAL fulfilment of Daniel 12:1-3 and Revelation 12:7-12)

Hebrews 1:7-And of the angels he saith: Who maketh His angels winds/spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire. (Ps.45:3-5 refer to the archangel Michael:--> 3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh,O most mighty,with thy glory and thy majesty.

4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things. (Re.19:9-And he saith unto John- Write,Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto John,These are the true sayings of GOD. 10 And I-John- fell at his feet to worship him.And he said unto me,See thou do it not:I am thy fellowservant,and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus:worship GOD:for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy)

5Thine arrows( Revelation 6:2)are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies;whereby the people fall under thee.( Revelation 11:15)



Re.11:16-17

16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before GOD on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped GOD,

17saying,We give thee thanks,O Lord GOD Almighty,which art,and wast,and art to come;because thou hast taken to thee thy great power,and hast reigned( 1Corinthians 15:24-27and51-55-Take a look)

Re.11:18-And the nations were angry,and thy wrath is come,and the time of the dead,that they should be judged,and that thou should give reward unto thy servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear thy name, small and great;and should destroy them which destroy the earth

Hi Alexis.

Adam and Eve were Saved by the cross the same way all that were saved in the OT.

I Would suggest forgiveness for Adam and Eve was granted before they were created.

I don't believe Adam and Eve surprised God by their disobedience in the Garden.

Christ was foreordained as the Lamb of God that take away the sins of the world "BEFORE" the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:18-20. Revelation 13:8.

Jesus' death on the cross was not an after thought by God after the event of mankind falling into sin.

God covering of Coats of skin for Adam and Eve suggest that there was a shedding of blood to cover their nakedness.

I'm sure the fig leaves mentioned in Genesis 3:7 covered there outwardly exposed bodies but not the inward exposed nakedness guilt caused by their transgression.

Besides, this was the work of their own hands.

Only the blood of Christ can take away sin

and those OT sacrifices pointed forward to Christ.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

God has all along been revealing the "lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world through these OT sacrifices.

See Hebrews 9:7-14.

I hope this helps.

God bless.

Christ was given the Kingdom

God the Father granted Christ all authority on heaven and earth which sets forth the ultimate example of how God worked to reward the perfect obedience of Christ. It also goes against Satan's offer to worship him to have such authority. ( Matthew 28:18; Matthew 4:9).

One may question how Christ; who Himself brought all of creation into existence would have such a destiny. ( Colossians 1:16-20). In that situation; one may say that He was the Person to do the work that the Father had planned; and His agent as it were was the Spirit of God (hovering over the waters as it states in Genesis 1:2).

We realize in this that no servant is greater than his master. ( John 15:20). We all are nothing without Him; yet He will likewise exalt the humble with positions to rule and reign with Christ in the Millennium. In some sense we can say that Christ emptied Himself so that He could be our High Priest suffering in all ways but without sin. ( Heb. 4:15). As the second Adam He was able to keep from the temptations of the devil to fall unlike Adam; as well as fulfilling the law perfectly which no man could do. ( 1 Cor. 15:45-47).

It is hard to get our mind around these facts; that He who created all things would start from conception as a helpless babe and end as a sheep to the slaughter ( Isaiah 53:7); the Lamb of God which will forever be ascribed to His Name. Of course all of us who are saved are adopted sons; ( Ephesians 1:5) part of the eternal lineage of the rightous (as contrasted with the earth dwellers in Revelation 11:10).

Christ is returning as conquering king. He alone trods the winepress ( Isaiah 63:3). He alone brings forth the TRUE one world government of peace and rules in righteousness; impartially judging as many verses in Isaiah testify. Some verses can be taken symbolically but to not take Revelation 19 literally or somehow think Christ already returned in some mystical way is heretical thinking (see 2 Tim. 2:18)

Hi Momsage.

I believe the Trinity discussion is a fruitful one and there is a lot to learn from it.

I believe some has let certain doctrine consume them to the point where they break fellowship. The Trinity is just one of many.

I believe we should explore all doctrine but no doctrine should cause a hatred that has been displayed by some.

We search the scripture and let the spirit of truth do his work in our lives.

There should be an increase in fruit in our lives and love for the Brothern that is produced from above as a result of the truth providing that the spirit of Christ is in us.

God bless you Momsage.

Have Adam and Eve been forgiven ? What scripture shows this ? Thank you .

Proverbs 29:7 The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern. I ask in Jesus name as His ministry was about us disadvantaged and saved the needy from those too powerful for them.

I am a divorced homeless woman without an income cause Iost my job and had to move to where I could find shelter. I ask Jesus to install in people a heart of compassion and not judging and to rebuke rich people who are selfish and live for their own pleasure and look with disdain on us struggling. Restore our dignity and according to Proverbs 30:8-9 give me neither poverty nor riches so I do not deny God nor resort to stealing and insult my God. Please pray for me in Jesus name

Hi Chris: I'd like to comment on two statements you made in this post. First when you said "when lengthy discussions here are in progress & they suddenly cease:" I was in a lengthily discussion about two subjects; the Sabbath and corruption of the KJB. I felt like I had to quit for the exact reason you want to quit this discussion:

"I have often put forward pertinent Scriptures in this matter of the Triunity of God, but not one has come forth to exegete the Word & show why those verses are inapplicable." They always just came back with their same arguments with little or no scripture and, although, I posted a rebuttal, I guess you could call it, with questions and other scripture they mostly wouldn't answer the question or explain, as you say, why those scriptures are inapplicable.

This is the first posting I've seen on the Trinity and I'd like to take part in a the discussion but if you feel like you must stop, I'd like to ask if you would go on a little longer and let me respond.

I am a believer of the Trinity. I have just watched a video on YouTube of a person explaining why believing in the Trinity is wrong for 5 main reasons. My next post will address these (empty) reasons. If it is a repeat of what you and S. Spencer have already discussed, please let me know. God Bless :)

"New Jerusalem" (1 of 2)

Dan.12:12 "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."

Here the Angel of the Lord, the man in linen is referring Israel as the holy people. He raises both hands so emphasis is what is decreed in heaven both by God and the Word and it is not Daniel to know as we read in vv.9-13. So we have to look at the Ancient of days and Man as in the inaugural vision of the Book of the Revelation for answer. We shall come to that anon.

The man clothed in linen "and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." The tag time, times and an half is regarding the holy family called out before the worlds began for which we have the night vision in the Book of Daniel. (7:13-14) The tag is associated with the Man component in the Fellowship of God with Man. Thus time signifies Israel, times represent both Israel and Gentile nations. And an half represents 144,000 from the left out church which steps in the breachsince 12 tribes are no longer extant. ("Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." Re.7:3). What we have in vv.4-7 are those who redeemed their calling to considered 'the servants of our God'.)

Three and half years of Jesus' ministry is the baseline which works out to 1260 days.

Daniel is told of 1290 instead of 1260. This 30 days (3x10) refers to the church before rapture. 1260+30 days

12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."The temple worship has ceased after the ransacking of Jerusalem in AD70.

Matt.24:27 "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Blessedness refers to the holy people coming their inheritance.

"I see no reason in stopping what could be productive Bible-based dialogs with fellow believers on a forum designed for that as long as its not an argument. You asked if the views have consumed someone- maybe you are tired of this topic? I've seen the trinity topic a lot on here, but less often discuss the root differences for why people believe what they believe and get into specific verse interpretations. That's ok if that's not of interest to you, but it seems to be of interest to those who are posting about it. I think others can post any Bible topics they want to discuss and I'm not aware of anything interfering with that freedom."

AMEN

General admonitions related to prophecy and the end times

There is a tendency at the very least to discuss subjective individual experiences as to what is said to constitute a dream or vision of the Rapture or Tribulation; which may involve several different scenarios but often fails to expound scripturally on the big picture. It is much like the testimonies; real or imagined of heaven and hell which either cast doubt on assurance of salvation or show some landscape ruled by Satan or demons who are in control or perhaps emphasize punishment for specific sins while on earth but not addressing the sin nature as the real problem.

On the earth in the Tribulation; Satan is given his authority and power to rule for the last 3.5 years until Christ's return to earth.

What is often neglected is God's plan in all this to purge the nation of Israel as well as for a quick "fruit production" for those with white garments (i.e. those who are saved at the time) through martyrdom. As I stated in one of yesterday's posts; there tends to be emphasis on the torture of those being martyred as though any true believers will fail and fall away to take the mark. The primary execution is beheading according to the scripture at that time ( Rev. 20:4). This will; no doubt be swayed by those who want to offer the most "humane" method of killing. This in no way is meant to minimize the time worse than any time in human history but to point out that Satan's main goal all along is for worship; he just mows down any opposing him in the process. Believe what you want as a Mid or Post Tribber; to think we can somehow prepare or find a way to survive at that time is foolishness; God will save a remnant; as for the Gentiles "rarer than the gold of Ophir" ( Isaiah 13:12 with warnings in verse 17 that the gold and silver won't sustain anyone along with other similar scriptures in James).

The Tribulation is coming we can't stop God's plans. We must occupy therefore until He comes (Luke 1913

Addendum

The 2000 character "curse" cut off my thought; there is a book of all living it seems; and the book of life and a remnant of those are in Malachi's mention of a "book of remembrance".

I wanted to ask you to pray for wisdom and suggestions as I feel an overwhelming burden to share some deep stuff about the mark of the beast but don't know if this forum is the best place. I will put it in the prayer section in more detail.

Glad to hear of your test being good. The Lord has you helping a lot of people so at least I can say with some confidence that is one reason you aren't out of commission completely. I am very bad at serving; maybe that's why He has me living to help at home and working serving students in a cafeteria. Being an only child I suppose is part of the reason and makes me introspective.

As to the subject of the discussion we of course are sad for those who don't know the truth. I don't know how really to balance the overwhelming emotions that crop up on that with the ultimate reality of Isaiah 66 where those tormented in hell are an abhorrance to everyone else. It makes me think anyway of my half hearted efforts in evangelism; and that is magnified by the sermons in church on 1 Peter and related scriptures on sufferings and persecution we should joyfully endure. Our Pastor talked about the famous "flea" story of Corrie Ten Boom but also about how someone about to die wrote something about asking God to remember the good fruit that happened under the oppressors; and of course that may have been part of what she thought about when forgiving one of the prison guards years later. This sorta relates to what I said in the last post; Jesus asked the Father to forgive them as they know not what they are doing at the crucifixion. In the case of Lucifer as you said they knew enough about what they were doing. I wanted to say that the functions of the angels remained distinct and unique but the fallen can't reflect God just themselves.

1 Timothy 5:21 seems to answer that question regarding the "elect angels". I don't believe any elect beings can ultimately fall; but in the case of the angels they saw heaven and were present when the worlds were created as the verses in Job indicate when all the sons of glory shouted for joy. This begs the question of course did God foresee all those who would fall and call the remaining the elect; or were they predestined to go that way? I would say both as God certainly is unlimited. Seeing everything as the angels did there could be no further remedy unlike mortal man who has never seen God or only what they learned starting in Eden. Seeing heaven as Lucifer did and more importantly the proper praise of God's holiness in the beginning also would have made it clear what worshiping a created being would imply. This is similar to the logic I apply to the Tribulation at least from the sixth seal on there is no more need to tell anyone that Christ is Lord as they will hide from the face of God and Christ at His right hand ( Revelation 6:16 imperfectly translated by me).

Clearly of course God's predestined plan from before the foundation of the world for our salvation (I'll let you find the verse) shows that God knew what was going to occur. This doesn't give us a pleasant feeling; and we should be reminded the dirge said related to Lucifer's fall in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. Once the angels saw all these things there was no need for validation of who God was; and there was also no further remedy-they were forever to be out of the favor of God with the ultimate destiny of hell (which was created for the Devil and his angels).

This should be a sobering reminder to man that there is a point beyond redemption once we have tasted heavenly things as Hebrews and literally hundreds of other scriptures point out in warnings of reprobate individuals and those who at first glance appear to be saved who fall away. There is a book of all living and of life.

My mom is sick

Prayer request:

First of all; I'm praying about sharing some deep stuff on the mark of the Beast and the Tribulation that I haven't shared yet.

I could try to word things as to not spark any unnecessary controversy as to things which I strongly am convinced the Lord has shown me. There is also the choice of the discussion forum or getting involved in a thread should the Lord bring an open door (much as He did last time when the Trinity was on my mind and discussion was already available here on that subject). The question arises as to how crucial this subject is on this side of the Rapture (as I am a Pre Trib Rapture believer but qualify that statement with the fact that some who think they are ready aren't or will be left behind). That is another issue; but my question is how important are these events if we ourselves won't be here and of course there is always a risk sounding the alarm that the Lord will tarry much longer than we think. Balancing what we need to do now with the Great Commission with these future events is a challenge; the scriptures should be out there to warn any living into the Tribulation of how horrible it will be but also present the Gospel now as they could die tomorrow. The lack of earnest discourse or preaching much of the time in churches now as there was say 30 years ago is alarming to me and a sign as to how much closer it is; and the verse in Luke about "beating the fellowservants ( Matt. 24:48 and next few verses) indicates to me that those who wish to warn on such events will be ridiculed by other believers near the time of His coming.

My other prayer is for a friend of mine who I am seeking the Lord on whether we could share a place together. His name is Steve and although working full time and having his own business on the side it is hard for him. I thought by having less rent for him would help and it would make it easier to live near but not in my parent's house and save me money as well.

Thanks and agape.

Rich P