All Discussion PAGE 119

At least we can agree that many modern translations are spurious in part; some are clearly blasphemous or not well translated.

The other issue which I hate to bring up is that when more than one manuscript is mentioned (such as a few KJV mentions) there could be more than one case which is the inspired version; why can't the truth be slightly different in multiple manuscripts that each have a different part of it? Their own comments vary from saying there is another mansucript that may be equally valid or one that is likely NOT valid originally. We can't prove of course an earlier version HAS to be the correct one as again they are hundreds of years removed from the original texts. This does happen; at times for context. Personally I spend some time reading a lengthy dissertation of NIV as to its errors. I'm not as familiar with other stuff.

Since we are in a checkmate situation discussing this subject; I will say that we need to consider carefully if we are going to disfellowship with other believers who have a different translation. Many major topics have a similar enough meaning in different versions (I could mention the New King James which may have English more understandable as we speak today). As to what churches we attend that is up to us but those who show fruit of true faith I would think we should choose battles wisely. Also that goes for those who may read the version we approve of but have no evidence of saving faith.

So anyway not to belabor the point. I'll leave it up to you how to deal with others with this issue.

Jesse,

I think that one fault (among many) of the King James Onlyism movement is an approach to Scripture inerrancy that is Anglo-centric, as if God only intended those who speak and understand English are to read a Bible in 16th century English that is the ONLY true, errorless, and God-inspired Bible. But there are millions and millions of Christians who read and understand and learn from Bibles written in their own native tongue or one they have learned such as Greek. If the language of Europe and the U.S. were Greek only, would the Bible translation that is Greek be uninspired and full of errors? I think not. In fact I think a Greek translation is probably even more accurate than and English one.

God chose to send His Son at a time when Greek was the international language of the day and Aramaic was the common language of the people in Israel. The Scribes and Teachers were the ones who read and studied the Torah in Hebrew,

for the most part. Most Jews of that time needed to go to the synagogue to hear the Torah be read to them. Did they not hear the true word of God at that time, as the scrolls read in the synagogues were copies of copies of copies of the original writings.

Anyone who make the claims often stated by King James Onlyists are speaking not from facts, nor from the viewpoint of the original translators, but from a rather recently-emerged movement of a very small minority of believers.

But people will fall for any teaching that is unfounded if they are not careful and diligent and I think that this may be the case for the King James Onlyists. This site is a KJV site but not a King James Only site. It is not a part of this movement. It is a site that offers the KJV to readers along with many helps and a wonderful discussion forum, but nowhere does it say that it adheres to King James Onlyism. Those who insist that this site is to be so are speaking in error concerning this site.

I appreciate that you have spoken well on this topic Jesse.

Hay brothers and sisters,

Concerning translations, I would like to say, I could list many things about translations what text were used, what influence Latin had on it, what was not allowed, what was added, but something to consider. I read and study the KJV but it is an English translation but only 25 to 30 percent of the population of the world can read or speak English. What about the 70 + non-English people. We can take a doctrine or a belief and find Scripture to fit it. If a translation is what we put our faith in our ears are closed to the truth given to us by the Holy Spirit.

Mark 13:11 John 14:26 The Holy Spirit is our teacher if our ears and eyes are open to hear and see. If we do not clear our minds and pray to our Father to show us the truth it does not matter what translation, we read. We wonder why there are so many denominations and beliefs?????

I love you all and may God bless,

RLW

Please pray Hashem stops bullying me and gives me counsel and wisdom

Jesse,

Again, well stated.

The original manuscripts were written in perhaps, proto-Hebrew by Moses or the Hebrew that the Jews knew going into captivity, Aramaic, and Greek. The Septuagint was a Greek translation of the Old Testament Hebrew Torah. Most of the people of the time of the writing of the original writings would have understood what was being said in these languages as they were either their mother tongue or a learned language. In the time that the KJV, and other protestant translations were made, the Latin Vulgate was the common Bible used in the church up until the Reformation when Luther and Calvin translated the Latin Bible into their native tongues. Some in England also translated what manuscripts that were available at that time into an English version that was written in the English of that time period. Very few people in England in the early 1600's spoke nor understood Hebrew or Greek or even Latin. There was not a great amount of literature available to be read by common folk at that time in most instances anyway.

And today, very few of us in English speaking countries can read or speak Greek or Hebrew. So how can any of us know for certain if the translators did their work accurately as compared to the manuscripts that were available at the time of the translation.

If most of the people of the U.S. and Europe spoke Greek, we would have a Greek translation made in the early 1600's. Would King James Only folks say that such a Greek translation was accurate, infallible, and re-inspired like they do with the English translation of the KJV? The Greek translation would be even more accurate to those who can read and understand Greek!

There are millions upon millions of non-English speaking Christians who read the Bible in their own language or one they can read and understand that is not English. Are they learning from corrupt versions because they are not the KJV in English? I think not!

GiGi,

Thank you! Something I think we must keep in mind is that the KJV is a translation, meaning the translators had to translate from something. If they were inspired by God to put forth a perfect translation superior to all others, and the only one that should be used and trusted, you would think the translators might have at least hinted to that.

The KJV translators took what was available to them (the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic texts), and translated those texts into English after being commissioned King James I.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I read the KJV. It is my bible of choice, but I know it is not perfect. I trust the KJV, but there are other English translations that I also trust. If I were to make such a claim about the KJV, how do I back that claim up? I can't, unless I take my English text bible, sit down with the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic texts, and take on the tedious task of doing a word-for-word comparison, beginning with Genesis and ending with Revelation. Otherwise, I can only make such a claim off blind faith, trusting that the translators made no errors.

If one claims that the KJV is infallible and without error, and that all other versions are corrupt, what is their standard in making such a claim? Is the KJV the standard? A KJV Onlyist might say yes. But then the burden of proof must be on them to prove that the translators were infallible, incapable of making any errors in their translation of the texts they had available.

If there are differences between the KJB translation, and the original languages and texts, are we to trust the original texts, or are we to believe that the KJV is correct, and the Hebrew and Greek are wrong?

Just a thought!

Hi Bennyhkje: A little offense taken, but that's ok. I believe you are a very intelligent, man of intellect and I understand why you wouldn't want to listen to a woman of "nonsense" that believes the KJB bible was written By God, so I will be silent, for you. Thank You for the discussions we have had. I have enjoyed them. God Bless :)

Your welcome and I will take your lead and roll over, also, after this response.

"I will state that it is infallable as to doctrinal matters ..... When one manuscript is chosen over another there MAY be a clear indication error occurred but in other cases we can't say other versions are wrong either." You don't seem to understand or else believe that when God canonizes His word it is in a righteous and complete way. God doesn't do this so that some parts are right and some wrong so they need to be corrected, added too or erased according to man's arrogance. If we can't trust all of it we

can't trust any of it. Do we trust and have faith in God's omniscience and omnipotence spirit or don't we?

As far as the Apocrypha goes, this is just a side-step to ignore the corrupt verses I included, which, you did not respond to. The Apocrypha was always understood by Christians of that day that it was not a canonized book and, therefore, it was advised to read in private, to not preach from it. I believe, the Lord allowed it for a while to help separated the wheat (Protestantism) from the chaff (Catholicism). It is still in their bible.

The example I gave in Rev. 13:8 is just one of a myriad of ridiculous to serious changes the new versions, written by man, are riddled with. I know you probably won't', but if you were to do a comparison of even just a few of the over 200 new English versions available today, you would understand this belief and see the differences yourself. You can get a list of the particular verses to compare online. You don't have to pay any attention to what is said about these changes, just get the list of verses and versions and compare them yourself. I really hope you haven't done this already, and are still promoting the new versions?

I hope we can have continued discussions other then this one. I enjoy reading your comments. God Bless :)

Amen Brother Jesse.

No, I have never read the introduction to the 1611 KJB but I will do so.

Thanks and God bless!

Hello Richard

Actually the Dead Sea Scrolls include many of the Apocrypha or as others call them Deuterocanonical Books. A bit less than half of the books found there are from the Apocrypha.

Also in the New Testament, in the epistle of Jude we can find stories from books that both Christians and Jews rejected as fake. One is the incident about Moses' dead body and the other the incident with Enoch. Both of those stories can not be found in the Bible. That shows that at that time things were a bit fluid and since there wasn't any canon established yet, people were reading all sort of religious books. That is why those Apocrypha were included in the Septuagint which means that they were read by Jews at that time. A lot later both Christians and Jews canonised their scriptures.

Asking for prayers concerning my 21 year old. Please pray with me that my baby boy turns his heart, life toward Jesus. Praying for his soul that God saves him and fill him with Holy Spirit. I am praying that he finds his way in life and that God takes away the laziness and that he grows to become the man that God wants him to be. I am praying for him to want to love to go to church, also that he may be witness to his friends. Please pray also for me that I lose weight I have a bad knee and slowing me down in life. i know God is a healer and there is nothing that he cant do. I am asking everyone to please keep and my baby in your prayers.

Consider it as read, if you will. I choose silence than read nonsense. Take in good Spirit, momsage.

"The Earth" (2 of 2)

Throughout the Bible symbolic value is fixed by the Holy Spirit so natural world and things of the Spirit are anchored on the bedrock of the divine Will of the Father; correspondingly newness of creation is distinct as Jerusalem is from New Jerusalem is entrusted with the Son. "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son( John 2:22-24)"

Symbols serve as a principle of Similitude so we may use them as a rest frame in order to see the will of the Father and the completion of it by the Son. "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new"(2 Co.5:17). (See entry under N-new heaven and new earth)

"The Earth" (1 of 2)

"The earth is the Lord's, and all its fullness thereof, The world and those who live therein. (Ps.24:1-NKJV) What do we mean by fullness thereof? Fullness is the will of God, which is eternal. For this reason the Preaches says, "The earth abides forever" (Ec.1:4) The Spirit refers to the earth as of the visible worlds framed by the word of God. (He.11:3) It is thus the Holy Ghost, the third office in Trinity sets down the Father Son relationship in terms of earth.

Heaven and the earth as one: considering that God would send his Son in fullness of time the Spirit in order to instruct us, reconciles the events, people, ages before the creation of the worlds and after, (these two ages we shall place for the sake of simplification as Alpha and Omega aspect of the Son) and mark his Atonement, as the apogee in God's holiness. What we have then largely are movements; the creation of the heaven and earth becomes new heaven and new earth. This in turn we shall break up in its several parts. Wandering of Israel is a kangaroo event forming part of the God's everlasting covenant with Man, consequently events and river of time move from one eternity to the other.(See under T-river of Time)

We also have world of the flesh set against world of the Spirit. The Spirit uses the elements of the natural world to lead us to the new heaven and the earth. The same earth but its material aspects cleansed by water and by fire.. By the same token natural man by water baptism is deemed dead to sin and the world. "Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean:"(Nu.31:22) The outpouring of the Holy Spirit symbolized by tongues of fire (Ac.2:1-2) fixes who are called to be in heavenly places.

Jesse, well stated and I agree with all you've stated concerning the KJV and its translators.

It is good to take what is said in the introduction of the KJV and by its translators at face value and agree with what is stated in this introduction concerning the KJV.

"Earnest of the Spirit"

Earnest of the Spirit derives its power from the will of the Father, which is perfect. The Lamb slain before the foundation of the world is an emblem and the Lamb of God as testified by John the Baptist helps us understand how we are to treat this gift of God. All His promises are yea in his Son. As promised the risen Christ sent another Comforter to all those who were gathered in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost. Paul refers to the Spirit as a pledge,- ("In whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,/Which is the earnest of our inheritance")- (Ep. 1:13-14)

Since then the Holy Spirit serves as his indwelling tutor,- and inner man benefits from it. He teaches us divide the word correctly by the truth in our heart.

The word in our heart works with the Spirit so the inner man is strengthened by it. As many as are led by the Spirit are the sons of God. The role of the cloud of witnesses in the world of the Spirit (He.12:1) is a great congregation to which we belong as well the spirit that serves like a candle. "The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly." (Pr.20:27)

These two witnesses are signified in the wilderness when the Israelites were led by pillar of cloud and pillar of fire, and we shall profit from his instruction till the end. .(Ex.40:38)

The Spirit has organized the narrative so the Israelites in the wilderness serve as example, and for our admonition. Similarly manna from heaven fed them." And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year."(Josh.5:12)

The word and the Spirit are two witnesses that shall abide with us till the end.' For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. (2 Co.1:20-22)

Please remember my daughter Jessica and her family in your prayers today please remember me

Eye

'If therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.' It is the eye of faith.(Matt.6:22-23). The whole body signifies two worlds that of the flesh and of the Spirit. The body formed of the ground is adequate for the natural world, the world of the flesh. Considering that man is a living soul his world interfaces with the world of the Sprit, to which we who have made a covenant by sacrifice have a tabernacle "an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."(2 Co.5:1-3; Ps.50:5). The expanse between these two worlds we scan by eye of faith so seeing is not simply a matter of optics but much more. It is seeing by the true Light, which is what abiding in Christ would mean. We shall examine two verses:

Job had heard of God but when he saw it with eye of faith we see the power of the word of God. "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee./ Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."( Job 42:5-6)

"Come, behold the works of the LORD, what desolations he hath made in the earth." (Ps.46:8). Notice the word 'behold' it tells us that desolation were fulfillment of the will of God the Father.

St Paul walks with purpose according to' the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ' meaning the truth in his inward parts equips him amply for living as a good witness for Christ. 'For we walk by faith and not by sight' (2 Co.5:7) . Eye is used as symbol for the inner man.

Peter and John going into the temple healed a lame man, after telling him 'look on us'. He gave heed unto him expecting to receive of something. He was healed because faith was present there. (Ac.3:2-9). (See under D-double)

In the Brazen serpent put up the wilderness we read God commanding Moses, "When look upon it shall live" (Nu.21:8)

The Spirit uses this look of faith elsewhere in the narrative to distinguish from natural use of vision. (See under M- Expression of sign/gestures)

Psalm 11:5

Prince of Peace, I need more of You right now. I know that You test the righteous, and I stand in my faithfulness to You because You are my God. But I know that Your soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence, I know that it is not okay for me to be abused by my son. I pray for peace in my relationship, let Your Spirit change the heart and mind of my son. Allow him/her to see things like You do, Amen.

Amen. Blessed be the Lord God Almighty.

"Dreams"

Dreams are outside the will of man. Man has no power in himself to write history any more than choose his dreams or the script for what he sees in his REM state. Dreams are arranged according to the divine Will shaping all events so what God looks for is faith,- the DNA of God, 'Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God.(He.11:3). It is the quality unseen characteristic of divine pedigree.

Those who doubt the Virgin birth have no clue as they apply their rational mind for what is purely spiritual. God had revealed to Isaiah of virgin birth 'The virgin shall herself conceive and bear a Son '(Is.7:14) . It is the task of the Spirit to arrange matters so the Angel visits Mary and reveal the birth of her son. Simultaneously he also visits Joseph in a dream. Matt.1:20). In the revolt of Miriam and Aaron against Moses God intervenes and tells, "Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream (Nu.12:6)".It is thus the Sprit sets up dreams and visions on a need-to-know basis. On the other the Will of God is perfect requiring no correction whatsoever. So in Trinity the third office is about the time aspect .

We were foreknown by Him and events so arranged each of us to confess his Son as the Savior. It is also validated in the birth of Jesus that Palestine was under the Roman rule so crucifixion foretold by prophets would occur accordingly.

"Dragnet"

Matt.13:47-48

The kingdom of heaven is compared to a net cast into the sea. We may assume it as dragnet, which considering the area to be scoured must be of infinite size. The Son of man deputes angels to gather the good and throw away the bad. It is not difficult to imagine it is about judgment by which God shall have the good to himself as in the case of the Parable of the tares. Basically the kingdom of heaven distinguishes two groups of people, namely children of light and children of wrath. (See entry under W/ word-wide web)

When Jesus of Nazareth assembled his disciples he had assured Peter and Andrew them that,". Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men(Matt.4:19)", in the sense the Word separates the children of light and of wrath.

In the parable we find the waters mentioned. The waters speak of the world. "But the wicked are like the tossing sea, which cannot rest, whose waves cast up mire and mud (Is.57:20)". In eternity no more sea shall be found (Rev.21:1)

In the Book of Genesis we read of several separations. (See entry under A-Abstract)

These separations shall culminate in the inauguration of new heaven and new earth. As promised by Jesus the word-wide web serves as a dragnet. Jesus called his disciples as his associates to draw the catch to the shore. "Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away." (Matt,13:48) (See under the Rule of Three-principle of Association)

"Balaam's donkey didn't have the KJV either." Brother Spencer, that is a rather humorous visual, but good point. God can speak to us with or without the written word. We are blessed to have His spoken word in written form to study from, but if every bible somehow disappeared, God's Spirit will still speak to us in some other way. I'm not sure if you have read the introduction to the 1611 KJB that can be found on this website, but it is a very good read. The translators were not KJB only and never claimed to be infallible, nor their translation to be infallible. There is nothing found in the KJB that states that it is the only bible to be trusted.

I think most of us here read the King James Bible and would agree that it is a very good translation. But it is a translation, and as you say, no translation is infallible! And many would probably agree that there are some corrupt versions out there. But there are also other good translations that can be trusted the same!

God Bless!!!

Joel 2:32 KJV

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

I haven't said or done anything or stopped anyone from entering in God's church or believing in Jesus to be saved!

The word of God is infallible.

No translation is infallible.

Most of our short comings in the word of God is probably in the area of faulty hermeneutics and a lack of taking in the whole counsel of God's scripture.

If the KJV or any other translation was the only one available there would still be much error.

The error is in man!

.

It's nothing wrong with the seed, It's the ground where the issue often is found.

God's message of any doctrine doesn't hang on one verse.

If you removed John 3:16 from the word of God would you loose It's message?

YOU SHOULDN'T!

Don't doesn't have a problem with a blood tipped ear and eyes that see.

The word and the work of the Holyspirit is infallible

John 3:16 is spreaded broadly throughout the bible.

"FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, We don't solely depend on Jn 3:16 to tell us that!

"THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON,"

We don't solely depend on Jn 3:16 to tell us that!

THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. We don't solely depend on Jn 3:16 to tell us that!

I use the king James Bible however it's not perfect but don't let that get in the way!!

God doesn't have a problem conveying his message.

Balaams donkey didn't have the KJV either.

Study the word of God!

It patches itself up.

God bless.

I am going to roll over after this last attempt to answer your question.

First; again we need to understand that the KJV was closest to the OLDER renditions of Geneva and Tyndale. Again the earliest edition in 1611 had the Apocrypha which was NOT inspired for 50 years or so and in this country apparently until the mid 1800s.

I will state that it is infallable as to doctrinal matters. For instance all but one or two books are in the Dead Sea scrolls from the 66 in our Bible; but other extrabiblical stuff was left out. We cannot say the same for a few words different (even KJV will state that one manuscript is slightly different as an option in it's own commentary and there may be a couple other cases when other manuscripts have a section present or missing.) When one manuscript is chosen over another there MAY be a clear indication error occurred but in other cases we can't say other versions are wrong either.

Finally; the issue in Revelation is adding new scripture AFTER Revelation or deliberately adding or subtracting from Revelation in particular but also indicating not doing violence deliberately to scripture after the Word is complete post Revelation. Such a manipulation is CLEAR in things such as the Passion Translation and the versions that cults have (such as the Jehovah's Witness Bible). That is different than say a historical statement (which BTW is needed to understand the Feast of Dedication which Jesus celebrated (i.e. Hanukkah) which is NOT in either Testament of the Bible except there and to understand it we need to read from nonbiblical sources. Facts can be scriptural or nonscriptural as God uses all things for His glory.

One can argue that God wouldn't allow error in numbers taken in a census or other like statistics but discrepancies appear to exist even within different passages in KJV which again usually can be explained with the details missing or added in another section.

Thanks for taking time to read this.

Agape.

Jonathan,

I have prayed for you today when I prayed for my middle son who is still single at 36. I pray often for God to bring the best woman into his life. I pray the same for you.

Hello Giannis,

I am continuing to pray for this situation in your country.

I have two sisters who are lesbians and one who is bisexual. They think they were born this way, but I don't believe that God chooses to make anyone anything but heterosexual, just as I believe He makes only male and female. Yet we know that there are some who are born with some physical aspects of both sexes and in the past a decision was made as to what sex the person will be growing up. Now we have genetic testing that can show doctors what sex the person is. This being said, being "born" homosexual or bisexual or any of the many terms people use to describe their sexual desires is not the case for the overwhelming if not all cases where people enter such relationships. I have 4 sisters,1 is celibate, I am married to a man, and the other 3 are out of God's way for sexual expression. They were deceived in their early teens into this lifestyle. I have 5 brothers, 2 are celibate and 3 are married to women. We all grew up in the same household with 19 years between the oldest and youngest. Only God knows why He allowed my sisters to stray this way.

The grooming of young people into this lifestyle and the grooming of society to accept this lifestyle started in the 70's here in the states. This has to happen for this lifestyle to transfer from one generation to the next. As parents and citizens, we need to all be aware of this pattern. The practitioners and promoters of this lifestyle were not overt at first but are so now. The same will happen when it comes to other aberrant sexual desires-pedophilia, orgiastic orientation, rapacious behaviors will become more and more commonplace and even acceptable if society continues in this "don't judge me" mentality.

I hope that Greece stands against this movement.

Bibleman72

I have prayed for you today along with your Mom, Paula.

The hidden Christ

Mark 8:30 is one of several verses indicating Christ told people including the Disciples NOT to tell anyone who He was (namely; the Son of God). He spoke in Parables to hide things from all except those called and chosen (see Matthew 13:10).

When we survey the narrative of the Gospels it leaves us dumbfounded as to how anyone could not realize who Christ was. After all John the Baptist after baptizing a large amount of the entire population including the Pharisees warning them of who was to come identified Christ ( John 1:32 and recorded in Luke 3:22 as being accompanied by a voice from heaven). Only the Spirit could reveal this truth as we see in Matthew 16:17.

There are several reasons for this blindness. One is the god of this world who is mentioned as blinding men to the truth as illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:4. The second was in the hidden counsels of God more than likely (See Deut. 29:29). If the wicked knew who He was they would have stopped it because it would have led to their guilt in the act and He would inevitably be Resurrected. Satan also may have not been involved because it would mean His defeat as prophesied in Genesis 3:15 (although he is insane enough to ignore what he probably should have known). Israel should have recognized that the suffering servant would also come back as conquering king. They would have waited until He established that Kingdom on earth without having a heart to truly worship Him; reminiscent of the group who finally rebels at the end of the Millennium period.

We need to squarely face this fact in terms of how the unregenerate view Christ. Any affinity one may have for Jesus apart from the grace of God bringing repentance is from a false Christ in our imaginations which inevitably brings a works based attempt at salvation or considering Him a great teacher or Prophet as was the case of those in Matthew 16:14. Church is the congregation of the Holy not a social club for comfort.