All Discussion PAGE 162

Job 7:1-7 "Days of an hireling"

"As a servant earnestly desireth the shadow, and as an hireling looketh for the reward of his work"(v.2)

Glory of God is revealed in the manner His Power and Wisdom have created the heaven and the earth; so much so even a speck of dust refracts sunlight to create a roseate dawn or starry skies that never fails to thrill us. God is beyond human conception and Truth is the only measure by which He makes sense to us. "He hath made everythingbeautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end(Ec.3:11)". Only through his Son it is known. The works of God ( John 6:28-29).

Soul is a token of God establishing his sovereignty over His creation and it holds the everlasting covenant as its frame of reference. "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.( John 14:6)." Truth in inward parts makes each of us accountable to God in the final reckoning. So what are we but chosen by God before the worlds began. Are we sons or servants merely going through the motions of living for our reward?

"My days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle, and are spent without hope./O remember that my life is wind: mine eye shall no more see good."

"Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of an hireling?" A hireling and a son have different standing which the Parable of the Prodigal Son brings out. The spendthrift son have wasted away his means and fell in want. In an alien country where Satan is a hard taskmaster he would even grudge over the husks doled out to his servants, what does the son say,'And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!( Luke 15:17).The expression 'when he came to himself' is highly significant. Soul is a reminder of our fellowship with God.

Hey S Spencer.

I apologize; I took "but it would be difficult to discuss it without at least a friendly debate" the wrong way I do not want to offend. Who Jesus was and is, is most important.

God bless,

RLW

please remember my daughter Jessica and me and in your prayers

When someone shows you who they are , take notice :) .

Some people just don't seem to be able to help themselves do they ? :) .

David 0921, to this matter of the Gospel preached to the Elect. You stated, "Therefore the command to send forth the True Gospel into the world as the means God has chosen to draw His Elect to Himself as He applies that Salvation to their life; and as a means of separating the wheat from the chaff particularly in our day."

So according to your understanding & by sharing this statement, can I assume that the sinner (totally lost & depraved in his sin), is still known to God as His Elect? So, this sinner must then have the Gospel preached to him, & thus be somehow drawn towards God, but of course without any assistance by God/His Spirit or else it would be Works, & then in that drawing process/stage, the sinner has Salvation/conversion applied to his life. Not sure if I've understood this correctly - please correct me.

If this would happen to me in my 'conversion' experience, should I then, having heard the Gospel the night before, gone to bed, & then after awaking should feel that something has changed in me? Just retracing these steps: as a wretched totally lost sinner the night before, the Gospel which I heard did not have any effect on me, since if it did (i.e. caused any contrition for sin & repentance), it would be regarded as my Works. So, I awake in the morning, feeling that something could have happened in me overnight as a result of the previous night, but I don't know what - but of course God would know, because He knows that I am His Elect. Confused, I continue my life of sin & debauchery, but still God has chosen to save me, because He must since I am His Elect.

I'm sure I've got it wrong somewhere David0921 - please clarify. Or, how did you experience this weird sensation in your life? I'm sorry if I sound cynical, but I genuinely don't understand how this works - it's both foreign to my mind & reading from the Word.

Page 3. David0921

Philippians 2:12,13: is Paul reminding them, 'you have God's Salvation, now work it out (i.e. don't be slack or negligent in living the new life that Christ has purchased for you), & do so in fear & trembling - living the Christian life is a serious, disciplined matter, under the ministry of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

"Our Faith, Belief, Repentance are WORKS and a RESULT and EVIDENCE of, not REQUIREMENTS for, Salvation." There certainly must be an on-going evidence of Faith, Belief & Repentance in a believer's life, but none of the passages suggest that they cannot be requirements towards Salvation.

Part 5: Ezekiel 36:24-33. Indeed, this passage is all of God's Action: that Israel would be released primarily from Assyrian/Babylonian captivity & then ultimately "from all countries". But what happened? Have they yet received "a new heart & a new spirittaking away the stony heart of flesh? Their Messiah came, gave His Life for them & they yet remain obstinate & stony in heart. I believe this will yet happen ( Romans 11:25-27), when Israel will be saved. How will they be saved? These verses don't divulge this information, except God's Act to take away their sins.

And so we go back to what Jesus had commanded & to which the apostles obeyed, Mark 1:14,15 "Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: REPENT ye, and BELIEVE the gospel."

Acts 3:19, "REPENT ye therefore, and BE CONVERTED, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord" Israel in the future, will still need to believe & accept that Jesus was indeed their Messiah; maybe all Works in your understanding, but vital if they are to receive "a new heart & a new spirit".

I'll get to your new comment now.

Page 2. David0921

c. "How have we been justified? Christ has paid the full penalty, eternal DEATH for the sins of those He is saving by being perfectly faithful in taking upon Himself all of the sins of each of His Elect". John 3:16 states that God so loved the world (not just the Elect), that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish". Here, I understand that God's Love extends to both the Elect & non-Elect (the world), but of those in the World who place their trust in Him (proving they're the Elect of God), will not go the way of eternal damnation, but of eternal life.

d. Did Christ die "an eternal death" for us? Not sure if you meant that Christ died & saved us from the eternal death that we were destined for.

Part 4: you referred to the Galatians' passages. The reason for Paul's reference to the Law, was because of the Judaizers (Jewish Christians - Galatians 1:7) who taught those in the Galatia region, that obedience to the Law was necessary (Works) for salvation & Paul's Gospel was defective (i.e. justification by faith alone plus nothing, not even the Mosaic Law).

So from here we begin to separate in our understanding of this Doctrine of Salvation. You have asked the question, "So what is a good WORK? Are our BELIEF, our FAITH, our REPENTENCE good WORKS? The best definition of a "good WORK", I believe, is "any obedience to the COMMANDMENTS of God, the LAW of God". Of course you believe that not only obedience to the Law of God is a 'Good Work', but also belief, faith, & repentance are. 2 Thessalonians 1:11 does not speak of Faith as a work towards salvation, but of having Faith that works in the believer's life & Paul prayed 'for a powerful faith in them'.

Ephesians 2:8,9 is actually a great example of a God-given Faith in Salvation, which is not included in a works-based salvation. Faith is God's Gift to believe - leading to salvation.

Page 1.

Thank you David0921 for your detailed comments & for taking the time to do so. I'll address each part of your five parts.

Part 1: Fully agree about mankind's total spiritual depravity before God, for no sinner can ever find righteousness from within himself that will avert the Wrath of God. To the "Law of God" you referred to, I'll take it as 'the holy standards that God requires of man to which man will always fail God'; rather than the giving of the Law (God's Standards to Israel), to which the Gentile had no knowledge of, aside from the dictates of his conscience ( Romans 2:14,15).

Part 2: Again, fully agree that the sinner is totally incapable or desirous to attain God's Holy Standard for righteousness and God is completely justified in the eternal condemnation of the sinner.

Part 3: Some issues here. a. "What does it mean to be "justified"? It means that we stand perfectly just before the Law of God because we have paid the full penalty required by the Law of God for each and every one of our dirty rotten sins." Did you mean, 'our justification before God means that we can stand guiltless because 'we'(?) or is is 'Christ' that paid our full penalty?'

b. I also understand that Galatians 2:16 refers to those who were no longer under the Law, but would use the Law as well as Grace given through Christ's death, to find their righteousness & justification. This was the 'Works of the Law' referred to, when any of it was added to the faith found in Christ alone - for the Law never gave righteousness & acceptance before God. "for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Unless the Elect of God today is of Jewish descent & was once under the Law, this verse has no application to the Gentile elected of God who was never under the Law & could never & should never use that Law to add to his faith.

I have questions concerning the disposition of the body after death. I have often had comments from people about my intent to be cremated when I die. They ask how I can be resurrected if I have been cremated. To me, it is not about what is done with the shell that carried me through life, but the new body I will have on that day of resurrection. I believe that the God who formed us has the power to reform us. In short, He has my DNA as He created it!

People point to the Jewish practice of entombment, including that of Jesus. I believe it to be a personal decision, and that our God who created us, provided our salvation by stepping from heaven to die for us, also has the power to reform us whether we have rotted and seeped into the Earth or reduced to bone chalk. Death was defeated by Jesus death on the cross, and risen again. The message is that God cannot be killed, a grave could never hold him, and that He is life eternal. He has given that gift to us as well when we accept it and trust in His promise.

I love to go outside on cloudless nights and marvel at the very small glimpse of His creation. The vastness of the heavens is breathtaking! Can the same Creator of such splendor gather every molecule of me even from every corner of Earth or depths of the seas? Gaze into the splendor of the sky and be assured; yes, He can!

Chris,

In rereading your comment I did not directly address your question as to why we are commanded to send forth the Gospel.

While it is a certainty that each and every one of God's Elect will become "saved" since there sins have been fully paid for, God must still apply that salvation to their life in giving them a New Heart, a New Resurrected Soul.

Therefore the command to send forth the True Gospel into the world as the means God has chosen to draw His Elect to Himself as He applies that Salvation to their life; and as a means of separating the wheat from the chaff particularly in our day.

The True Gospel is the "savor of life unto life and death unto death" as we read in 2 Corinthians 2

2 Corinthians 2:15-17 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

It is not the business of the True Believer to decide or know who is one of God's Elect and who is not. That is God's business not our business. Our task is to be an ambassador of God's Kingdom.

2 Corinthians 5:17-20. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Doing the will of God is the key. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven./Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?/And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."(Matt.7:21-23) Being founded on the rock or abiding in Christ is the way we do the will of God. The works of God as Jesus explained is to believe in him. "Of God Jesus has become wisdom (1 Co.1:30)

Hi Richard,

I am so glad that God gives us in Christ all that we need for life and godliness! Including repentance, faith, and a regenerated soul.

We are truly blessed with so great a salvation and so precious the mercies of God to us!

Hello brother Earl (Gus)

I appreciate your comment here but I do disagree that Jesus was set aside His perfection. He was absolutely sinless. However, as God in the flesh, He did go through the normal growth process that occurs from conception to adulthood. He did get tired and hungry and his feelings were hurt by the words and behaviors of others. These are not imperfections due to sin, they are limitations Jesus took upon Himself in becoming human for us. His flesh was not sinful. He had no sin in his mind, soul will, spirit or body. But He came from the Father to live in this sinful realm and so was affected by the sin of the world, but did not partake of it by his own willful actions.

Earl, I hope you are doing well today. I remember you in my prayers and think of you often. Much love brother.

Hi Ronald.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying "you are not worthy to discuss the Bible with me"

Also, "We" have always been respectful with each other.

I said it would be great to set at a kitchen table and discuss the Bible, but it would be difficult to discuss it without at least a friendly debate, especially on this topic.

Considering the context of this thread my point of view is based on the following.

GOD MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH.

This life giving spirit of God in the flesh could not sin.

Christ didn't become a life giving spirit at Calvary.

Christ was a perfect Lamb "led" to slaughter. He didn't "become" perfect at Calvary!

An unblemished Lamb chosen for sacrifice is perfect before you sacrifice him.

My comments in this thread is based around the belief in the triune God.

What I said is that this topic would be difficult to discuss without a friendly debate being your theology is built on Jesus not being God.

We are just sharing our different view points that we both are aware of, which we have done in the past.

I can't discuss this tonight because I live in the eastern time zone and I probably go to bed a lot earlier than most of you.

I will attempt to show how Jesus is our Kinsman redeemer is tied into why Christ came into the flesh and condemned sin in the flesh at a later date.

Ronald I don't get to read all the comments as I would like to but I haven't seen you get attacked for your beliefs anymore than those with the opposing beliefs.

In fact it seems you are asking most of the questions on the opposing beliefs and you have been getting friendly dogmatic answers.

Thanks again and God bless.

How does God tell us to integrate strangers in our lives

Jamila Efia, Love you to say a prayer for me and my mother Lois, my boyfriend Markel. Me and Markel is in a relationship and love you to say a prayer for us.

Hey S Spencer,

I am sorry I am not worthy to discuss the Bible with you, I have been always respectful to you. I will leave our conversations with this. 2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

In love my hope for you is the best and God bless,

RLW

Thank you Amasuca for speaking out on this very important matter that is often swept under the carpet in many congregations. May these words inspire some Church leader to deal with, or seek help to deal with, such difficult & uncomfortable issues that will most certainly arise within any group of believers; for the sake of the health & vibrancy of Christ's Church & not to abstain from troubling the waters of peace within. Every blessing.

Thanks again Ronald.

It would be great to set at a kitchen table and discuss the Bible, but it would be difficult to discuss it without at least a friendly debate, especially on this topic.

You see we start off in our differences with who Jesus is, so we build around this doctrine differently. I believe there is one spirit and one God and he manifest himself in a mystery we cant explain "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness as 1 Timothy 3:16 says it. but the bible is clear on it.

Jesus is God in the flesh and I build from that point of view.

You said your understanding of a living soul is what Adam was, (I agree with that.) what we are, (I agree with that also.) and what Jesus was, (That I DON'T agree with.)

For starters Adam was "MADE" a living soul and we are descendants of Adam.

The scripture doesn't say that about Jesus. In fact, it doesn't even say Adam "was made" a quickening spirit.

was made is in italics.

It should read, "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam a quickening spirit.

Here's a difference of many between the first and last Adam. In Genesis2:7 it reads "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The first Adam had to have life breathed into him. The last Adam IS LIFE.

You said, "the second man was born without sin because His Father is God, conceived in the womb of Mary, absolutely human without sin. I agree.

We are not even debating on whether Jesus took on human flesh or not.

I'm saying he was in the bosom of the father before then. Ronald the scripture clearly says this.

Thanks again Ronald.

God bless.

""Ronald, I don't hold the view that Jesus was a living soul." I certainly don't either. God gave Adam his soul when He breathed life into him. God did not breath His life into himself. Luke 1:35 tells us how the Holy Spirit came upon Mary for the birth of Jesus in a spiritual way not in the way of man.

The Gospel Message is simple:

BELIEVE in Jesus Christ as the true God incarnate. That His death and resurrection provided the sacrificial blood for forgiveness of mankind's sin so that the soul may be in His Prescence for eternity.

ASK Jesus, with a sincere heart, for forgiveness of your sins and accept Him into your heart as your personal Savior.

Then you will have the leading of the Holy Spirit to want to live a sin free, holy life.

The Holy Spirit will lead you into a heartfelt desire to read and study His word; the 1611 King James Bible. It tells us who God is and that He, and He, alone is the Creator of everything.

God is to be loved and Obeyed.

Always, your heart should be turned toward GOD and the things of God.

Don't let yourself be fooled by ANY of the modern, corrupt translations. of the "bible." Stick to the 1611 KJB.

The Word of God tells us who God is and that He, and He, alone is the Creator of everything.

Read the bible diligently and consistently through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit after salvation until you go home to Him.

God is to be loved and Obeyed.

The bible is a wonderful book with stories, lessons and much Knowledge for God's people. Whether we sleep until He brings us into His Prescence, or we go straight to His Prescence when our soul leaves our body, we are His forever if we choose to live holy and be obedient to Him.

This is a straight, and narrow path and not many will and follow it because God gave man a free will to choose Him and His way or to choose the devil, through self will, and his way.

It really is that simple to live and understand as long as we put ourselves under the blood of Jesus Christ our Lord.

Scriptures to read:

Book of Luke

Genesis 1: 1-11

Brother Ronald Whittemore:

I agree with you.

Brother S Spencer is correct that from the beginning Christ was perfect, being the image of his Father.

But the word says he LAID DOWN that perfection and took on the form of sinful flesh.

He walked in that condition until he was BAPTISED by his Father, having the fullness of his Father's Spirit poured out on him.

Isaiah 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord, and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, nor reprove after the hearing of his ears.

Job 25:4 How can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

Hebrews 5:1 For every high priest (the man Jesus Christ) taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins,

Hebrews 5:2 That he can have compassion on the ignorant, and them that are out of (I am) THE WAY; for that he himself is compassed with infirmity.

Psalms 5:3 By reason thereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

Read Psalms 69, It's Christ speaking, this will open a whole new can of worms.

God Bless You

So finally Chris, Part 5

I want to leave this discussion by again quoting Ezekiel 36:24-33, which is one of the clearest statements regarding the Nature of Salvation and that each and every aspect of our Salvation is 100% the WORK of God, including our WORKS of BELIEF and REPENTENCE.

"For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.

Notice, again, that EVERY ACTION IS GOD'S ACTION.

Every True Believer WILL BELIEVE and WILL REPENT and WILL have an earnest ongoing desire to be obedient to the Law of God. And if we don't find this in our life we may still cry to God for Mercy that He might save us. It is still the day of Salvation!

Hey S Spencer,

Thank you for your replies I know you are a busy man and like I said this is not to debate but it would be grand to set at a kitchen table and discuss the Bible with you. I am honestly studying this for the truth. Just to make sure you know why I asked about not a living soul. My understanding of a living soul is what Adam was, what we are, and what Jesus was, human beings.

We are born with sin past down from the first Adam, both of our parents have sin that all humans have. Adam was created without sin but was disobedient therefore passing sin down to all mankind. The last Adam Jesus, the second man was born without sin because His Father is God, conceived in the womb of Mary, absolutely human without sin. As Adam was a living soul so was Jesus, a living soul born without sin.

God bless,

RLW

Continuing Chris, Part 4

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the WORKS of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the WORKS of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:1,2 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the WORKS OF THE LAW, or by the hearing of faith{Christ's faith}?

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the WORKS OF THE LAW are under the CURSE: for it is written, CURSED is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

In these verses God is making it crystal clear that if we are following a gospel that is conditioned upon our good WORKS, we are CURSED.

So what is a good WORK? Are our BELIEF, our FAITH, our REPENTENCE good WORKS? The best definition of a "good WORK", I believe, is "any obedience to the COMMANDMENTS of God, the LAW of God". Are we not COMMANDED to Believe and to have FAITH in Christ; are these not "gifts" of God and part and parcel of Salvation?

2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the WORK OF FAITH with power:

Ephesians 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Phil 2:12,13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is GOD WHICH WORKETH in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Our Faith, Belief, Repentance are WORKS and a RESULT and EVIDENCE of, not REQUIREMENTS for, Salvation.

We've been hearing more and more, that Time may be running out.

Sin is rampant in the world today. Many things in society as we once knew it is breaking down, and lawlessness is becoming the normal everyday activity.

A select few say that we are fast approaching the end of time. Per the many warnings of Jesus regarding signs that we are now seeing more and more. we may in fact be closer than we want to think..

Picking up the cross, turning away from this world, and following Jesus is not at all popular today. The pastors/preachers in most of our Churches today are living, popularizing, and encouraging worldly lifestyles.

This movie doesn't look good.

You are absolutely right. No Man can pluck Me out of God's Hand . No King or President, terrorist, theorist, atheist, no army , no foreign threat, no doctrinal beliefs, or even death. But I can walk out of My Salvation. Jesus said Fear not Him which has power over the Body , to actually kill You. But Fear Him, God which has Power over the Body and Soul afterwards. I love that Verse where Christ chose 12 and gave them Power to cast out Devils and to heal sickness except for Judas Iscariot. Oh wait ,, hold on that Verse doesn't exist . And Jesus said Satan can't cast out Satan or His Kingdom is divided. At the Last Supper the Bible says Satan entered into Judas Iscariot. How did the Devil enter into a Place He is already at ? How can I be at Someone's home right now when Im sitting here ? I would have to depart ,, Amen. When Satan entered into Judas Iscariot then The Salvation of God departed . The same way that That the Spirit of The Lord departed from King Saul. A King annointed, chosen, gifted physically, given People anointed by God as support, a Band of Men. Acts 1 :: says Judas Iscariot died and went to His Own Place . At this very moment He is in Hell , weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. King Saul was told by the Demonic Spirit imitating Samuel the Prophet that tomorrow You will be with Me . Be with Me in Hell for Eternity. Neither was Plucked out by any Man. They Played around with God like The Church at Rome in Romans 1 :: . They became Vain, arrogant, proud and unthankful. They took God for granted. And Paul said ( When They Knew God ) . They were SAVED and Blood bought but now They no longer know God. Nobody can be Plucked Out of God's Hand . In Revelations 2 :: Jesus tells the Church at Ephesus and Every Christian Backsliding. Remember You have fallen and go back and redo Thy Works and repent or lose Your Place . Those Works are The Salvation of Jesus Christ. So it's Possible to Walk away from God .

Reverend Michael Ray Dorsey

First, hello to you my good friend, Chris. Thank you for offering direction on the matter at hand. I certainly appreciate it, and I stand in agreement with you. I should've added the fact that leadership, elders in the church, or members who are more experienced with dealing with such matters, they're the ones who should be left with tackling these types of issues. I think sometimes in some cases we have too many chiefs, and not enough Indian's, a figure of speech, of course not poking fun at anyone. I really liked what you wrote about taking "immediate action".

Sometimes these issues are not dealt with, and swiftly become a real problem.

A church that takes a strong stance against sin, like you say, will usually become a thriving church, and a church well recognized by all.

Thank you again for your input. It only helps me more, and more to know, that God is the one behind the wheel of my life.

Many blessings and blessing upon blessing be unto you.

May the strength of our LORD and Savior be upon you.

In Jesus name

Hadassah:

What are we save from?

One is SAVED from death, by the resurrection of Christ.

Christ is the resurrection.

Christ is the LIFE, Christ is the book.

So everyone HAS BEEN SAVED from death, else Christ would have to die and be resurrected a second time.

Now it's down to BELIEF, you either believe you were made ONE FLESH with Christ by his resurrection, believing by faith,without seeing with physical eyes.

If one does not believe by faith, he will not take part in the first resurrection, he will have his name removed from LIFE.

He will lay in the grave till the second resurrection.

Salvation is being SAVED from DEATH.

Everyone will at some point be saved from DEATH.

Then comes JUDGEMENT.

Psalms 149:5 Let the saints be joyful on glory:

Psalms 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two edged sword (the word) in their hand:

Psalms 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the nations, and punishment upon the people,

Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgement written: THIS HONOUR HATH ALL HIS SAINTS.

Everyone will be SAVED: from death.

You will either be a JUDGE or will be the ONE JUDGED, when CHRIST raises all the UNBELIEVERS.

Knowledge is coming to understand the RESURRECTION.

God Bless YOU!