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As well, in this last comment from you, you write, "Repentance and Belief of someone whom God has saved or plans to savedoes NOT contribute in any way whatsoever TOWARDS their salvation. These are good works that we do because God has saved us or in the process of drawing us to salvation". So even here it seems that Repentance and Belief, though non-contributing to salvation (and I agree to this part), but are evidences post-Salvation or during Salvation. Maybe your thought of Repentance is the continual attitude of the believer in his day-to-day life/warfare, and not of an initial repentance required for salvation; or even, if someone is the Elect of God, he must be saved from the beginning even as a sinner, but only has to repent & believe when he realizes his state. So, I too remain perplexed for I too don't believe that Repentance & Belief can be added to God's Gift of Salvation or else they would be considered as Works; YET I know that Repentance & Belief are necessary to grant Salvation ( Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19; Acts 8:22; Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9).
I was puzzled by your comment:
"But I also note your belief that 'repentance & belief' are considered as 'Works done towards salvation', therefore it can have no place before salvation."
So allow me to clarify.
The Repentance and Belief of someone whom God has saved or plans to save, i.e. one of God's Elect, does NOT contribute in any way whatsoever TOWARDS their salvation. These are good works that we do because God has saved us or is in the process of drawing us to salvation. They will be evidenced in the life of the True Believer and are the RESULT of God working within us to will and to do of His good pleasure. Philippians 2:13
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the FAITH OF CHRIST, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Our faith, our repentance are WORKS OF THE LAW; we are commanded to believe, to have faith, to repent. But these works do not contribute to our salvation in any way.
It is Christ's faith that saves us. That is, Christ's faithfulness in paying for the sins of His Elect and then applying that salvation to their life and giving them an enduring faith in Him and a repentant heart; all of which is part and parcel of salvation itself.
I ran out of room. I will be heading off to bed now. I can write more tomorrow.
I have time now to get back to you.
You ask Do you need to believe in the Trinity to be saved and be a Christian.
For me, I think that it is important for people to believe the truth about Jesus and the God's Being as shown in Scripture. One can come to Christ on very little knowledge of Jesus and even the depth of the Gospel and will be received. But I do think that once someone does come to Jesus and they learn what Scripture teaches and rejects what is taught in Scripture about the deity of Jesus and the Triune nature of God (see the last supper discourse in john) then one becomes an apostate and is in spiritual danger since they are worshipping a false image of God and Jesus and have fallen into idolatry.
Can I show you where in Scripture this doctrine is taught that one must believe it to be saved?
In reply to this question, my best advice is for you to study the Scriptures for yourself, as citing the dozens of Scripture that speak to the deity of Jesus and the Triune nature of God would involve very lengthy postings here and I don't wish to do that when you can find the information you are looking for on the web easily. Just type in the question and you can read what you wish.
And the last question is : If Jesus is God and God cannot be tempted or sin, how can he truly be tempted and how can He fulfill the law that man was under and condemn sin in the flesh?
I believe that Son of God is both fully God and fully human in the Person of Jesus. That Jesus is one Person with two natures and these natures do not intermix. As God He cannot be tempted, or sin. But His human nature could be tempted and could sin. But since every act of Jesus is done by the Son of God, who is the only Person present in Jesus, He would never sin due to His divine nature.
Jesus did live a perfect human life as a true man, thus fulfilling all the law for us. And in doing so, He condemned sin in His flesh by His perfect life and sacrifice, conquering the law.
Sorry, I posted a response but apparently posted to my response to you. You can check for it on this thread.
Here is part 2
I hope you will do the research for yourself that I have done for myself. Let me know when you have done so and we can talk more. If you do not wish to check things out for yourself, then I don't think we really have anything more to talk about on this topic.
Getting back to you.
I do believe that there is only One God , as the Scriptures I gave state. But I also believe that Scriptures reveal that God exists as three distinct Persons. Not three Gods who are independent of one another nor of differing natures or substances. No! All Persons share the same divine nature and essence that is what God is. The Persons inter-dwell each other, as Jesus speaks in Jn. 10:30, 14:10-11; 16-17; 23; 13:31-32.
Anyone who believes in Jesus believes also in the Father, John12:44 and he who receives Jesus receives the Father. And he that sees Jesus sees the Father- Jn.12:45. 14:9. Whoever knows Jesus knows the Father- Jn.14:7. He that hates Jesus hates the Father, Jn. 15:23; All that the Father has is Jesus', too, and the Spirit receive from Jesus what the Father and Son possess, Jn. 16:14-15. The Father's glory is shared with Jesus- Jn. 17:5; Jesus came out from within the Father- Jn. 17:8; 16:28.
We are to honor Jesus as we honor the Father-in the same way, as our God - Jn.5:23.
I have spent the past two days studying what the Scriptures say about the deity of Jesus and about the Persons of the Godhead and find that Scriptures does teach that Jesus is God just as the Father is God and the Spirit is God AND that there is only one God.
This is what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches. Only One God in essence and nature, but three distinct Persons indwelling one another in unity.
Jema, I can tell that you think this belief is incongruous. I think it is true, yet a mystery we cannot fathom fully but can believe because the Word teaches it to be so.
Instead of me going on and on citing dozens of Scriptures that show that prove these doctrines are true, I suggest that you do as I have done. Search the Scriptures. There are many websites you can go to also on these topics to find the Scriptures that people cite to support the doctrine of the deity of Jesus and the Triunity of God.
see pt. 3
Your post made me think of the Scriptures that tell us that the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ was slain before creation Rev. 13:8. This speaks to the eternity Jesus possesses with the Father and the Spirit. Before anything was created, God was. The Father Son and Holy Spirit in one another as One God forever. How wonderful to consider.
But to think of the covenant made before creation for the Son to be the Savior of mankind through being slain on our behalf from before time began is sobering. We cannot imagine how that can be since we are bound by time and space. But God showed John in Revelation that this is so. How great God is, how merciful, how gracious to us.
Good to hear from you again. Blessing to you tonight.
Thanks for the support. Been reading Scripture for the past few days on these topics. I pray for Earl to relinquish his grip on the belief that we will become or are gods due to his misapplication and misunderstanding of the Scriptures he cites. And I pray for those who deny the deity of our Lord. We have given Scriptures on this topic over and over again, as we should.
I will pray for your healing and for your brother in law.
Dear Heavenly Father, today we lift up to You Michael asking for You to speak the word of healing over him tonight. Bring relief from the back and leg pain he is experiencing and repair his body as needed. We also lift up this brother in law with cancer. Father, again, speak the word of healing over him, too, taking away the cancer cells that are threatening his life. Father, we know that you are our God who heals, so we entrust our bodies into your loving care tonight and each day. We come to You in the name of Jesus, Your So, who is holy and righteous, our Savior, our Lord. Give us all faith to believe Your Word and trust in Who You are. Amen.
But I also note your belief that 'repentance & belief' are considered as 'Works done towards salvation', therefore it can have no place before salvation. However, as I mentioned in my previous response to you that a spiritual awakening must take place first by the Holy Spirit to the one dead in sin & God-wards. And this awakening will cause the eyes of the spiritually blind to see (their sins & condemnation), to cry out in repentance, to believe on the Lord Jesus & to receive Him. This is not a works-generated effort towards salvation because the Holy Spirit is vitally involved in bringing the sinner (the Elect of God) to the foot of the Cross. It is all of God's Gracious Work - nothing of man's efforts. There is a difference when a sinner is being drawn of God as opposed to the sinner coming on his own terms & probably adding to his 'salvation'. True, the unregenerate man will never seek after the Lord, unless the Spirit is engaged in the hearing of the Gospel & conviction in the heart, but I can never understand how a sinner can be saved first & then repent & believe. GBU.
Thanks David0921. Concerning the Elect, my understanding from 1 Peter 1:2, is that those who are the Elect of God are such because of God's Foreknowledge; i.e. He knows beforehand who will be His and this of course, as the rest of that verse explains, are those who will be obedient to Christ & His Sacrifice and by the sanctifying Work of the Spirit. These facts are the marks of the Elect, the true believer - God's Foreknowledge of us already knows that to be His Elect, we would turn to the Cross & His Spirit would engage with us, and of course, we would first hear the Gospel & be convicted by its message.
You wrote, "God does not save anyone BECAUSE we Believe. But if and when God Saves an individual by His MERCY and GRACE alone, they will Believe. Our BELIEF, our REPENTANCE are good works that we do as a RESULT of our Salvation."
I'm sorry, but I can't agree to this, because how I'm reading your statement, is that salvation (i.e. the Spirit's regenerating Work in the sinner) comes first then the saved sinner repents & believes in Christ. To me, that is putting the cart before the horse. If a person receives salvation (forgiveness & regeneration) why would repentance & belief come after it? Surely, a sinner needs to repent of his sins first, calling upon the Name of the Lord to be saved. Even as Peter preached in Acts 3:19, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord"; this speaks of repentance & then conversion (regeneration), not the other way around.
The Church today, and I'm thinking more of the independent gatherings (i.e. those not governmental in structure), as probably having a good number of folk (both men & women) that might be better versed in theology & arguments in defence of the faith, than the elder/pastor himself. And this can be quite daunting to the one appointed to leadership, yet as you intimated, the Body is not in competition with each other to outdo one another, but in love & servitude, ensure the spiritual health & well-being of all. It might be that the leader might need help here - and so we need to lay all the matters, including our weaknesses & deficiencies, with the Holy Spirit Who will always ensure each individual develops into Christ-likeness & Christ's Church will remain vibrant & true to their Lord. But when wilfulness & sin are apparent & not addressed according to biblical guidance & warnings, I believe that Church is marked for rejection & self-destruction; and we have enough examples of this in Revelation chapters 2 & 3. These might exist as an external structure & a form of godliness, yet of no use in the Master's Hands & their light all but extinguished. The quality of the leaders both in biblical knowledge & Christian graces is paramount if the Church is to be led aright & experience the fullness of God's blessings.
If salvation was to the wicked whether you accept Christ or not and we all "including the wicked" will be ce gods whether we accept Christ or not, there is no need for righteous living.
And God's display of love in offering his only begotten Son on the cross was pointless and cruel.
That is not the Gospel of Christ!
Here is who's Gospel it is.
Genesis 3:4-5.
And the SERPENT said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and YE SHALL BE AS GODS, knowing good and evil.
Isaiah 12:14
How art thou fallen from heaven, O LUCIFER, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
This origin is of Satan.
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15.
Also
Just because there is two opposing views on the deity of Christ.
If either side hates the other view, how is it possible join sides and to usher in this view or any other heresy to attack the Gospel and say that you are a child of God.
Blessings.
Jesus took on the sins of the whole world. (THAT MEANS MADE AVAILABLE)
When we are born again "BORN OF GOD'S SPIRIT" We are saved!
We can no longer be charged with sin. 1 John 3:9.
The Holyspirit quicken these mortal bodies so we no longer "SERVE" sin. Romans 8:9-14.
There is no way for a child of Adam to be saved apart from being born from above. He was born with an inherited sin nature.
Unlike Jesus, we have to be born "Again" JESUS NEVER HAD TO DO THAT!
He was conceived of the Holyspirit. Matthew 1:20.
The penalty of sin was Judged/condemned/sentenced in the flesh. (In other words it was sin that was on trial, Not Jesus!
I believe that's what that phrase means. (Condemned sin in the flesh)
The meaning is separate from Jesus taking our judgment on the cross.
There is one event but two trials taken place here.
1) Our sins being Judged.
2) The penalty of sin, which is Death.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:49-57.
God bless.
The bible states we certainly each get to choose. It's called freewill, that He gave each of us. So yes, God gives each person the chance to believe and accept Salvation! Jesus commanded the Gospel of the Kingdom to be preached throughout the world. When we hear The Gospel of Jesus Christ we get to choose! We can each choose to accept it - or reject it.
If we reject, nothing else is required for us to do, but to live our life in continual sin. If we believe and accept, then we must repent. We must then take all of the actions as commanded by Jesus/God.
Many people today that call themselves Christians, want their salvation without repenting! Matthew 4:17"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Luke 5:32"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
We must REPENT (stop sinning) if we want to be saved, and grafted into Christs Church (olive tree). If we expect to remain grafted into Christ's Church, each of us must REPENT and produce good fruit (good works) or we will be pruned/removed from the tree, as many of the Jews were already removed, because they did NOT believe, nor did they produce good fruit!
The bible tells us that our actions while living in this current life will determine our ultimate fate, Heaven or Hell, so its certainly OUR choice my friend.
Read and Believe!
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matthew 24:14
We are living in a time where an understanding of the nature of the True Gospel and the character of the Day in which we are living could not be more urgent. ZionInTravail provides a Biblical view regarding these fundamental questions and is dedicated to serving Christ in the ministry of the True Gospel to all mankind regardless of age, sex, nationality, or economic status.
They hold that God is saving his elect today from every corner of the world, using sources which are completely non-affiliated with any church or religious institution. They use every possible resource at their disposal to get the True Gospel out into the world, whether via internet, radio, or printed tracts. They teach that as Christians our highest priority is to love our fellow man, and the greatest expression of love that we can have is that of sharing the True Gospel with our fellow man. Their main focus is to serve those who may have very little understanding of the Bible, like the 120,000 Ninevites who believed God in Jonah chapters 3 and 4, and who shall rise in judgment and condemn this generation ( Jonah 4:11; Matthew 12:41).
They are currently ministering in Africa in the countries of Ghana, Lesotho, Botswana, South Africa, and Tanzania. In the nation of China, they are engaged in developing videos to be aired on social media platforms in that country. They have a shortwave facility in Florida and are airing programs in English and Spanish to six different regions of the world.
I have a question - what is your definition of sin in this doctrine? Are you talking about real sin of disobedience to God or just faults and weaknesses we all face when we first get saved? God shows us these faults and weaknesses and as we pray and trust Him, He will help us overcome them and they will eventually go away. But sin puts enmity between us and God so how can we grow in Him if we are bringing enmity between ourselves and God? Romans 8:7 "and that he might reconcile both unto Him in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh." Those who believe in this doctrine, when I say I don't sin every day, are appalled and believe I'm being prideful. No pride, just peace in knowing I am living a godly life, without sin, because of being emersed in the blood of Jesus and under the power of the Holy Ghost. These doctrine diminishes the blood of Jesus and presents a weakened Holy Ghost.
9Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of theLordhath wrought this?
10In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
11Doth not the ear try words? and the mouth taste his meat?
12With the ancient is wisdom; and in length of days understanding.
13With him is wisdom and strength, he hath counsel and understanding.
Do you believe that doth ear try words? the ancient wisdom can be use today and the keys unto woman?
I believe every one is born of God and has to have the ears to hear from him and mouth to eat from God but I still feel they choose whether or not how they have life.
Yes I believe and for me the ancient wisdom of God will work in current today with the keys of life unto woman! And I'm a private example and choose life from God to lengthen my days.
What I see in your comment is that "receiving Him" is something that we have to DO or NOT DO (not doing would be rejecting), and that it is ultimately up to US to either RECEIVE or NOT RECEIVE the gift of Salvation, as many teach. But again, that is a Salvation the rests ultimately on something we DO or do NOT DO. And those are "WORKS".
God DID NOT look down the the corridors of time before the foundation of the world and saw who would "receive Him" and who would not. And then chose to save those who would "receive Him".
What God sees is what we read in Rom 3. That is, NO ONE would seek Him nor "receive Him". But despite that, God made the decision to save certain of all those dirty rotten sinners whom He saw would not seek Him nor accept Him. These are what God refers to as the ELECT. And these are those for whom Christ died and paid the full penalty required by the Law of God for all of their sins. And obligated Himself to apply that Salvation to each and every one of those ELECT before their physical death by giving them a brand new Resurrected Soul, which in itself can never sin again (1 John), and make them New Creatures in Christ.
We do not know who are the ELECT of God. That is God's business not our business. We only know that God made that decision apart from any inherent goodness or righteousness in any one of us. If we are unsaved, we do not know whether or not we are one of God's ELECT. But God commands us to cry out to Him for Mercy as He begins opens our Spiritual eyes to our Spiritual condition and standing before the Law of God; that MAYBE God MIGHT save me. If we have become saved by God's Mercy we will begin to have the assurance of salvation as we see the desire in our heart to be more and more obedient to what God declares in His Word, the Bible, both in doctrine and in practice in our life.
We come to God with a broken and a contrite heart PLEADING for Salvation. Psalm 51:17 Luke 18:13.
We don't DECIDE to be saved.
Is belief, i.e faith (one is the verb the other the noun but the same word) a WORK? God answers that question in 2 Thes 1:11
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the WORK OF FAITH with power:
God commands us to "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ". And when we do that we are doing a "good work". But God is very clear that no work that we do can INITIATE nor MAINTAIN nor CONTRIBUTE to our Salvation in any way whatsoever.
God does not save anyone BECAUSE we Believe. But if and when God Saves an individual by His MERCY and GRACE alone, they will Believe. Our BELIEF, our REPENTANCE are good works that we do as a RESULT of our Salvation. And we will find in our life an earnest and ongoing desire to be OBEDIENT to any commandment of God, i.e the LAW of God.
If we are following a gospel where Salvation is the RESULT of any WORK that we do, we are trusting in a false gospel that cannot save.
So what must we do to be saved? THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO? We can only cry to God for His Mercy, like the Ninevites did in the very real hope that God might save us. And wait upon God to do a work of GRACE in our hearts if it is His good pleasure so to do.
Ezekiel 36:24-28 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
"But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men."
In the previous chapter The evangelist gives us an instance of Jesus stilling the boisterous sea. He did not use it to walk over the water to go to his own city. Neither did he take on the tempter when he challenged him to turn the stone into bread for the simple reason that faith in God's holiness set him among men and fulfilling his Will gave glory to God. "And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed." It was a novel way to get a cure, on the same scale as the the woman with an issue of blood who touched the hem of Jesus's garment. Faith in both cases worked.("Thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour."-vv.20-22) Faith made the occasion count. Faith of God and man is the savor of salt to which Jesus had referred. "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men."(5:13) Two symbols spun out of same faith: you are light of the world, God the Father of lights rendering you thus and the eye of faith is abiding in the true Light would imply. It is thus we see through his light. Salt is also similar.
Salt is made of atoms of Chlorine which is a deadly gas and Sodium a metal that burns when comes in contact with water. But when these trillions of atoms are arrayed precisely in order it is our common salt. Faith is the savor arising of God and man when held in place by the spirit without any deviation. This faith made the man with palsy take up his bed and walk. God gave such power to man, his saltiness was not in his own but in working with God.