All Discussion PAGE 166

please remember me and my family today in your prayers

Absolutely ! Great explanation , thank you . We can do nothing of ourselves , to believe so is to believe that we have any righteousness of our own , which we do not .

Amen to your awesome post , excellent explanation , thank you .

How many? As many as fall willing victims to the Great Deceiver!

But here is the rub. We know the logs in our own eyes, and it makes us loathe to speak of the splinters in the eyes of someone glorying in a false sense of security, and thereby harming and soiling the very bride of Christ!

Is it more fearful to risk the approval of others than to fail to stand upon God's Word? I cannot balance my own sinful nature against another, and surely any sense of righteousness is like unto a filthy rag in the eyes of God.

I therefore pose a question based upon the Truth. Would any Christian parent be so willing to see their children led down a pathway to hell due to fear of condemnation?

What I am aiming toward in this discussion is the spiritual health of a body of believers.

Paul lashed out in I Corinthians against the behavior of a single member of that church and directed them to do what he would certainly do if he were present; put him out of the church.

As we know in the subsequent letter, Paul advised that they comfort - therefore forgive - that individual so as to spare him over much sorrow. But this did not imply that this individual be elevated to leadership! Such a matter has to fall within the purview of church government in the elders.

In all of the twists and turns of this discussion, arguments have been made from solid perspectives. The questions we need to ask of ourselves is whether or not we enter upon a search for answers with our own opinions in tow, or whether we ask for guidance in discerning that which is right and that which is wrong.

We should begin kneeling - not standing and preening. It is better to be a humble believer knowing that God is Love. He is also Holy and Just. Are we not also called to seek obedience to those attributes?

To condemn sin in the flesh.

What does that mean and can anyone born of Adam do it?

If it means to judge against it or to sentence it. What is required to achieve this? Christ!

THE FACT THAT JESUS CAME IN THE FLESH AND LIVED A PERFECT LIFE APART FROM SIN DOESN'T DIRECTLY MEAN "CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH"

It's the fact that he in doing so, he destroyed the power and penalty of sin is where and how he condemned sin.

(For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.) Romans 8:2,

Adam was a living soul.

There are those born of Adam. "At one time we all were"

Jesus "A quickening spirit" ( God manifested in the flesh,) Born from above! "God/Christ spirit".

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

GOD MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH.

This life giving spirit of God in the flesh could not sin.

Christ didn't become a life giving spirit at Calvary.

Christ was a perfect Lamb "led" to slaughter. He didn't "become" perfect at Calvary!

An unblemished Lamb chosen for sacrifice is perfect before you sacrifice him.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Hebrews 2:14.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Christ done what the law could not do. Condemn sin in the weak flesh.

This is the sin in our members that Paul speaks of in Romans 7:23.

God bless.

Jema, now I have a minute.

I refer you to the post I sent here below that show why I believe that Jesus is God. Are you willing to believe what John says here in chapter 1? the Word (the Son) is God and became flesh (Jesus). He never ceased to be God while in the flesh. He added a human nature to His divine nature in order to live the perfect human life for us and be our sacrifice.

I will write more tomorrow with Scriptures.

Hi Adam, you asked if I had kids.

If so, you would be a dad, correct? But you're also a son. But how can someone be both a "father" and a "son" at the same time. Surely that's impossible! This exposes one of your logical assumptions you used.

From my perspective in the above portion of your post

Your taking a naturalistic view point in this . Sure this is possible as human beings, to be a Father and a Son.

But we know God is Spirit. We know God is the Father,

But with your above comment your statement would be That God is someone's Son. This is not sound doctrine and has no biblical foundation.

Let's Go to Gen ch1 vs 26

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Let (US) make man in (our) own image

Jesus was with God From the beginning.

Let me ask you a question.

Have you received the babtizim of the Holyghost?

What is the Holyghost? It is the spirit of God. right?

So God manifests his spirit in you , through the Holyghost. Right?

With gifts of the spirit and fruits of the spirit.

Weather they be speaking in tounges, healings, prophesying ,interpretation. etc.

God lives within those who have the Holy spirit.

We are heirs through Christ .

So we are in christ and he in us ,as christ is in the Father and the Father in him .

Likewise through Jesus we have the spirit of God in us.

See, so Gods manifestation in us does not make us (God. Or Jesus.)

Jesus was Gods only begotten son, filled with the Holyspirit without measure. Sent to do the will of the Father. This doesn't make him God the Father.

It makes him the son filled with his Fathers spirit.

John 14:28

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Yes I agree, Rkroller with what you've shared here. Except, if such a sinning pastor/elder/teacher continues on in ministry, who then will remove him? Would any of the council/eldership call for his removal? As the world is continually numbed down in relation to serious moral/ethical matters, so to this apathy & fear of man has crept into the Church & made her a diluted misdirected group of ignorant souls, showing none of the Glory & Power of the Lord by their presence in the world. Of course, we might not know of God's Spirit's Work in that leader's life & that if he continues, that God Himself might remove him, so it is up to each Bible-believing, Bible-searching member of the Fellowship to judge his/her own position in such a situation. And of course, it's not only sins of the flesh that are brought to account, but also the great sin of mistreatment of God's Word. Anyway, how many of them are out there in the Churches, deceiving & being deceived?

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Now, if you feel that "my decision to accept Christ of my own free will" is still a work towards Salvation, then it would be so if the Work of the Spirit was absent. There is no salvation where one decides to follow Christ without any regenerating Work. But when the Spirit is present, "accepting Christ" also equates to 'receiving Him', & that with gratitude. True, the sinner is completely dead spiritually & unable to muster faith to believe (which is a Gift of God anyway) - but what happens when the Holy Spirit is involved in the sinner to awaken the heart & open the eyes, that he might understand, repent, believe, & accept? I don't see this as Works - it's ALL of Grace. GBU

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I believe, David 0921, that my "decision to accept Christ" was the response of a Work of God the Spirit before that. Let's look at the example in Acts 16:18-34 (of the Philippian Jailer & his salvation).

When he asked Paul & Silas, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?", Paul answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house". Clearly, the jailer had to do a work (= to believe). Was it a requirement to gain salvation which as you reminded us, is all of Grace alone? Not at all - it was a Response to receive the Gift- he had to believe to receive.

So what went on prior to this moment when the jailer cried out to know the way of Salvation? All we're told is that he witnessed an earthquake, saw prison doors flung open, & prisoners' chains falling off. What else took place? We're not told, but from we have before us, with the extraordinary events taking place before his eyes which he couldn't deny, caused him in a moment to re-examine his obstinacy towards the God of Israel, have a glimmer of the Truth from the witnessors search his heart, and of course, the Work of the Holy Spirit to convict.

In answer to the jailer's question, Paul said, "Believe". And no doubt when Paul & Silas "spake unto him the word of the Lord (the Gospel), and to all that were in his house", they would have acknowledged their sins & repented. True, Salvation is all of Grace, but the sinner still needs to repent (a work), & still needs to believe (a work). All these must take place prior to salvation being given - not after. None of it are contributions towards a person's salvation - but all are responses to the Spirit's Work.

John 10:34- seems to be a popular verse here. People want to believe they are a god, is that what's happening here? That would be a gross misinterpretation. You know this is a quote with a question mark at the end, right? Let's be honest about it. Here's the commentary for that:

Christ's argument is: If your law calls judges gods, why should I be held guilty of blasphemy for saying that I am the Son of God?

As per the other argument trying to discredit the word "one" sounds like your argument is that one doesn't really mean one, because Jesus used it to describe believers being one. I don't see how being one in unity as Christ's body somehow means that all the Bible verses about Jesus being God and divine suddenly don't apply? The verse about the Father and Son being one is only one of MANY verses competing the picture. The Bible already says Jesus the Word is God so how can you disregard that?

God: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV

You: Word was "NOT" God?

"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." John 8:19 KJV

Have you thought about how your belief reconciles with verses like this above?

Isaiah 7:14 -

Yes, Jesus is called Immanuel which means "God with us". People called Jesus "God". He's King of King and Lord of Lords. Alpha and Omega, first and last. Do you believe Jesus is Lord? I believe that is a requirement for even being a Christian. A Christ follower should know who Christ is.

1 John 5:7-8

John 10:30

John 8:19

Genesis 1:26

Genesis 11:6-7 (plural "us" which includes Jesus, as per John 1:1)

Philippians 2:5-8

2 Corinthians 5:19

John 1:3

Matthew 28:19

1 Peter 1:2

2 Corinthians 13:14

Deuteronomy 6:4

John 14:10

John 20:28

1 John 2:22-24

Matthew 1:23-25

Colossians 2:9

Acts 17:29

Romans 1:20

Isaiah 7:14

Hebrews 1:8

Isaiah 44:6

Isaiah 43:11

Oseas - Thank you! I haven't "signed-in" here steady, mostly looking stuff up but thank you so much.

So Chris, if I'm understanding you correctly, You believe that you are saved because you made a decision to "accept" Christ of your own free will.

Or perhaps that God, before the foundation of the world, knew that you would be wise enough to accept a salvation that God offers and therefore chose you to become saved.

That is not what I read in the Bible concerning the nature of mankind that is DEAD in trespasses and sin and in BONDAGE to sin and Satan.

Nor is it what God declares regarding the nature of Salvation itself.

You are describing a salvation of grace + works. It is a do-it-yourself salvation program. Where Christ has done His part and now it's up to you to appropriate that salvation. That is a salvation plan that to one degree or another is taught in virtually every church of our day and is not the Salvation of the Bible.

Romans 3:10-18

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Salvation is all of grace. And is 100% the work of God. If we have become Saved, Our FAITH Our BELIEF Our OBEDIENCE is the RESULT of God having applied His Salvation to our life. It is in no way whatsoever the REASON nor the CAUSE of our Salvation.

Yes, Jema, I do believe that Jesus is God and the Father is God and the Spirit is God.

I do not have time tonight to bring the biblical verses for why I believe this. Please be patient and I will get back to you tomorrow on this topic. I have family commitment tonight. Blessings.

Sorry F Major, I think you missed my point. God doesn't choose for some to go to Heaven & others to go to Hell. God determines that those who do not place their trust in Him & His Son have chosen for themselves to go to Hell. What I tried to indicate is that God, in His Foreknowledge, knows those who will come to Him and those who will reject Him - if someone rejects God, it doesn't mean that God is forcing him to reject God (for God is not willing that anyone should perish: 2 Peter 3:9). But God, in His Omniscient Character, knows all things about man - even how he will respond to Him. Man chooses for himself to reject God & this fact God already knows about.

Scriptural promises and blessings

Daniel 9:18-20 show how Daniel asked the Lord to remember the state of Jerusalem being in desolation and His promises (as seen in the book of Jeremiah) of reoccupation and return of the Jews after 70 years of exile (see Jeremiah 29:10). The sins of the people in question were something Daniel took on as a burden to himself in his prayers; fasting and supplications.

In terms of blessings of a general sort there is that of those who find a wife ( Prov. 18:22). There is also the offspring; or fruit of the womb that is specifically stated to be a blessing ( Deut. 7:13; and several passages in Psalms). Deuteronomy lists blessings for those who obey God's statutes and cursings for those who don't in extensive passages in Deuteronomy 28. As we look at God's chosen people in Exodus; clearly the Lord showed favor in physically delivering the Jews from Egypt; but as Romans 9:6 states not everyone benefitted from it. In fact only Joshua and Caleb survived from the first generation; even Moses was unable to enter the land but saw it from afar due to an isolated sin on his part ( Deut. 3:23 and following verses).

What we can count on in our sanctification and ultimate glorification ( Romans 8:30). All the prophetic scriptures will be fulfilled to the letter. This includes Israel being restored; the earth being renewed; Christ ruling in the Millennium; wars ending throughout the world; extended lifespans; etc.

The blessings of financial matters is promised for those who are living by faith (we see the example of Abraham in Genesis 13:2 as the first demonstration of this in scripture although technically the text of Job may be older as an example of God's financial blessings (see Job 1:16 and subsequent verses). Satan was well aware of God's provisions and favor and therefore we can be certain that he will attempt to thwart OR substitute God's blessings with his own which end up being dead ends and illusions.

( 1 Peter 5:8).

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I realize that it's difficult to let go of the Decalogue, as many of us have learned to recite it, as with the Lord's Prayer, from our early years. But I've come to realize that when we truly examine the purposes of certain Truths given to us in the Bible, we must be pliable enough to let go of that which no longer serves any purpose for those in Christ. Just think how hard it would have been for Paul to let go of the Law which was ingrained into his belief system & practise for so long. But then he could say what he did in Romans 8:2.

Maybe, you could share your understanding of this: why Paul could say that "the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" ( Romans 7:12), and then proclaim his 'freedom from the Law that only revealed sin & led to his death'. Seems contradictory. Blessings.

If he chose some people to go to heaven that means he chose some people to go to hell? How could a loving God do that?

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Thank you Momsage, I would love to respond to you - I believe in good healthy discussions. And yes, you have made yourself very clear & I do note with joy that you truly love the Lord Jesus with all your heart.

The point of the argument here is, that you make reference to the Decalogue as "the foundation of knowledge...to Godly living", whereas I reject the Decalogue as having any part in a believer's life; that my 'foundation of knowledge' & faith, is based purely on what Christ has done on the Cross, the bringing in of the New Covenant in His Blood (the better Covenant, Hebrews 8:6-13), & the Spirit's Ministry in a believer's life.

When I consider the new life granted to me in Christ, how could I ever resort to a Law that was designed to show man (the Jew) his sin, his inability to keep the Law, & that only punishment would result? The Decalogue was limited to that - it offered absolutely no power to fully obey & grant salvation. The OT folk who placed their trust in God, looked & waited longingly to God to save them, and this God would do one day. How? Would it be by their obedience to the Law or through the Sacrifice of God's Son Who would open up the way for them also - a certainty into God's Presence?

The Decalogue is not God's complete set of Rules to reveal the innermost workings of man's evil sinful heart. It is but a snapshot of God's Requirements - and even here Israel failed, for who could keep His Laws perfectly (except the Holy Sinless One of God to come). If I fail the LORD by slipping into a sin, it certainly isn't the Decalogue that exposes it - it's the Holy Spirit in me Who convicts me of sin. Maybe, it is for this reason, that many believers feel it's okay to get angry, foster pride, use unholy language, etc.; Why? Well, "it's not in the Ten Commandments, so I'll be fine". But the Spirit searches out our innermost recesses for sin & quickly alerts us.

Hi F Major. 1 Peter 1:2 tells us, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

The Apostle Peter wrote this letter to Christians, mainly of Jewish birth, who were scattered to other nations (mainly resulting from the great persecutions from the Jewish leaders/Saul: Acts 8:1). Peter calls them the Elect of God, i.e. those whom God has chosen to be His. And what criterion did God use to make this selection? The Word tells us that they, and us who believe, are chosen by Him because He knew beforehand (foreknowledge) all those who would hear the Gospel of Salvation through Christ & would respond in faith.

So yes, God has chosen each one of us who believes - He didn't force us to believe just so that we wouldn't nullify His wise choosing by Him making a mistake; but He knew who would respond & to these were granted the gift & privilege of being adopted into His family (see Ephesians 1:3-14 for a greater picture of this mighty Work of God on our behalf). Does this then mean that we don't need to share the Gospel with those trapped & lost in sin because God will save them anyway if they are called to be His elect? No, we must share the Gospel with all, because not only are we not privy to those who would be saved, but God has chosen to save some because when they hear the Gospel, they will believe by the convicting power of His Spirit, & they will call upon the Name of Jesus to save them from the awful penalty of sin & estrangement from a loving God.

"Unto you therefore which believe he is precious..." ( 1 Peter 2:7). If we truly belong to the LORD, Jesus is the most Precious One in our lives, for He has chosen us to be saved with so great & costly a salvation. Unbelievers might stomp on Jesus, curse & ridicule Him - but to us He is precious and our delight, & we can be ever thankful for being chosen to be His.

So, we are not "elected"?

I am speaking of those who are repeatedly guilty in the flesh. They would be even more guilty in the practice of presumptuous sin.

Ultimately, this is blasphemous to the teachings of God's Word. God's forgiveness of our sin is eternal. But, there are consequences to the commission of willful sin in the belief beforehand that God will make it all right- presumptive in believing by doing so God has granted permission.

Paul was very adamant that pastors and teachers are held to an even greater standard.

Would a church or body of believers be led by such a person? It seems the body of elders would be remiss if they allowed such a person to lead worship or serve in any capacity of leadership.

I believe God has the power to forgive even the most vile of sinners, and unlike us the power also to forget. But to repair such a rift with God is on the shoulders of the sinner in genuinely seeking forgiveness instead of assuming it!

If we viewed the sins and transgressions of any one of us as torn pieces of a picture, God has the power to tape us back together. The damaged image would again be whole, but the seams created by our memories have to remain as lessons to us; thus consequences.

It seems to me evident that the person standing before God should be disqualified to lead others because that is not in accordance with the Scriptures.

Hi Chris. I haven't been able to make myself clear so I'll try again. I am a saved sanctified, Holy Ghost filled christian through the blood of sweet Jesus. I love Him dearly. He is a wonderful blessing in my life. To put what I'm trying to say simply; the 10 commandments of God are the foundation of knowledge of what is the way to Godly living. The blood of Jesus makes it possibly for us to live that way. I'm not saying that church on Sunday is wrong in anyway I just believe our day of physical rest should be done in the way God told us to just like we are told to worship only Him and not use His name in vain like

"OH My God, to not steal or kill or commit lust or lie or envy or worship false Gods, especially through graven images and be loving and respectful of our parents. We live by the 10 commandments because we love God and want to be obedient to Him.

Biblekeeper12 believes no one in the bible was able to live by the 10 commandments or by the other laws GOD gave but there are many who did; Job, Esther, David Danial, Joseph, Joseph and Mary and many more. I would appreciate a reply if you want.

God bless you.

The new heaven & earth come down like a bride, verse 2 & 3, then what is the meeting in sky ?

And yet , after quoting those scriptures to Mary Jay , you still think that Jesus is God ? You can't use those scriptures to prove two opposing beliefs .

Hi GiGi,

That sounds good, God bless your meal. When ever is fine, we have always been respecfull to each other.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Ronald,

I am not at all put off by your questions just as I knew you would be gracious to me when I asked you questions. Let me consider your questions a bit and I will get back to you. I am in the middle of something right now (smoking a turkey on the Traeger) and making stuffing. Thanks for asking me these questions. They are important ones to discuss.

And Mary Jay,

I am sorry you do not believe what God has said in scripture in the citations I gave you.

Is. 44:6

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and His redeemer the LORD of Hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is NO God."

vs. 8

"Fear not, neither be afraid; have I not told thee from that time, and have declared it? Is there a God beside me? yea, there is NO God, I know not any." And God does know all things, so we cannot be gods.

Is. 45:5

"I am the LORD, and there is NONE else, there is NO God beside me..."

vs. 18

"I.... am the LORD, there is NONE else."

vs. 21

"..there is NO God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is NONE beside me."

Is. 46:5

"To whom will you liken me, and make my equal, and compare me, that we may be like?"

vs. 9

'Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is NO else, I am God, and there is NONE like me."

In just Isaiah, God says over and over again that there is only one God in all of creation, and HE ALONE is this sole God. There are no other gods, no other for us to call gods because other gods do not exist in reality, only in the imaginations of one's minds and in the images we create or the men we idolize, even ourselves.

Earl, you can quote the few verses that speak of men being gods, such as Ps. 82:6 and Jesus reference to this verse in John 10:34 and the reference to Moses being "as" God to Pharoah in Exodus 7:1 all you want, but the meaning of these verses is that the judges and Moses were representing God before other men, not that they are actually gods in their nature because He has made it abundantly clear that He is the ONLY God that exists.

Earl, those of us who say that the view that we are gods is heresy say so on the basis of what I have explained about the verses you quote and the verses where God says He is the ONLY God. To profess belief that men are gods is heresy. It is usurping God as the sole God of all creation. It breaks the 1st commandment.

Hi GiGi,

If I could ask you a few questions? This is in love and respect; I understand the Trinity doctrine is nondebatable to many and most Christian discussion sites you have to confess this doctrine before you can enter. These are not gotcha questions they are questions I have asked myself in my study. You can answer or not and that is ok.

Do you have to believe in the doctrine of the Trinity for salvation and be a Christian?

Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where this doctrine is taught that we must believe to be saved?

If Jesus is God unable to sin or to be tempted, could He fulfill a law that man/flesh was under and condemn sin in the flesh if He was unable to sin?

I will leave it with just these three, like I said these are questions I have asked over time because there is not a Church close to me that I can go because of this doctrine. Most of the time the Pastors never preach on it but if it comes up and you disagree you are told you are not a Christian and you are no longer welcome.

God bless,

RLW

Isaiah 30:10 warns about people wanting to hear "smooth things" being prophesied. Such may be the case for those who wish to invoke blessings on themselves for any other reasons than scripturally backed statements. Galations 5:19-21 is one of about ONE HUNDRED verses warning us about those who do NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. This is something also found in Ephesians 5:5; the book of 1 Corinthians; Hebrews; Romans; Revelation AND the Gospels.

To remind God of blessings promised in the Scriptures; if done in the correct way is honoring to God. Without discernment; however we may not be aware of what this means; and also if we are living in a sinful lifestyle we are trying to deliberately ask for something we cannot have as long as we refuse to submit to the Lord and we are producing bad fruit.

The church much like Israel has certain CONDITIONAL as well as unconditional promises. The POSSESSING church (that is those who have the Holy Spirit and are truly saved) is and always will be a subset in this age of the confessing or professing body of believers (i.e. the church). The difference is there are some who believe in the true God and others in a God of their own imaginations; fitting the parameters that a person finds reasonable; or comfortable living with by mentally cherry picking what appeals from the Word and filing the unpleasant verses somewhere in the cobwebs in the back of their mind.

God is no respecter of persons ( Acts 10:34 also Romans 2). He does whatever He chooses and we know for certain that He desires glory for Himself and no other. (See Isaiah 42:8). John 16:10 shows how God seeks glory for the Son; therefore His desire for worship is never selfish as He always does the Father's will. This is selfless love and shows an example of how we are to live. If we thank God for things in our lives that bring us into sin such as excess money for greedy gain ( Titus 1:11); we are only heaping greater condemnation on ourselves.