All Discussion PAGE 177

Matt.6:12-13 The Lord's Prayer-2 (1 of 2)

"And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors./ And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."

The Prayer is rounded off by the term 'Amen'. This is a clue to the Lord's Prayer, which is not spoken in isolation, mouth uttering words as though learned by rote but spoken with all the vigor of a man of faith whose 'heart is stayed on thee'. "Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee."(Is.26:3).The Lord's Prayer is enjoined upon all believers where Amen part of it, registers it as being spoken in unison with Jesus Christ who is the True and Faithful Witness we have on the heaven and on the earth. As said earlier he is our Intercessor.

The tag places there is the word of God 'Amen" and it brings us every time as uttered to what he is. "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God." We are not simply asking whatever wishes that may froth at the mouth but in consideration of all the bounties out of his storehouse, and in full agreement with the spiritual blessing He has determined 'from the beginning of the creation of God.(Ep.1:3-4) Amen is the Son, is a tag carrying whole lot of associations and it is how we prayer from the secret place and under the shadow of His wings. (Ps.91:1)

This is also equally applied where brother gather under the Spirit of grace. " Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!"(Ps.133.1) In this connection God tells King Solomon, "I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually."(1 Ki.9:3) God laid the condition on Solomon which he failed to keep.

Dear Mary Jay , thank you for those verses , I did think of the Apostles as being fishers of men etc when I read this question . I did also think that the person asking the question seemed a bit like a babe in Christ and was looking for a literal interpretation and so I gave him one :) . Thank you again , I'm off out right now but tonight I shall study those verses that you gave me :) . Hope you have a good day .

Thy Kingdom Come !

prayers for you and your family

prayers to you

Please remember my daughter Jesssica and her family in your prayers today please pray for me

I celebrate Christmas all year round so I may not be caught on the wrong foot. Similarly Good Friday is observed. I have been crucified with Christ nevertheless I live. Holy days are to be live so I do not take a holiday from it. "Be ye holy, for I am holy".

D aear Theodorse,

KJV is good since we feel the Spirit throwing light on the passages as equally I have been illumined many times while reading the Bible ages ago in the vernacular. I believe we confuse the Scripture being God breathed, somewhat like Mary confused the risen Christ for a gardener or somebody else. But when she heard his voice, she knew instantly her Master's voice. The word of God works with a believer not because of original MS or it is in KJV but it connects with heart a spiritual space. St Paul speaks how the Spirit helps with our infirmities in Ro.8. It is equally true with reading. Thy word is truth and it is how it speaks to man. Jesus Chrisst the same yesterday, today and forever. In John 2o Mary, "she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus." But the voice of the Word is eternal. "Jesus saith unto her, Mary." Instantly she recognized the Word become flesh. There is a difference between the man and the word become flesh. Similarly there is a difference between literal approach and letting the Spirit illumine our reading.

What is 'perfect' and should there be a controversy over it. God is perfect and it is holiness of God. Human intellect make nonsense in explaining it. God commands us, 'Be ye holy, for I am holy'. Without 'grace' it would not be possible. Truth and grace came by Jesus Christ. Perfection is rounded off in our abiding life by our Redeemer Lord as St Paul confesses to the 'power of Christ in me' (2 Co.12:9).

Thank you for sharing that Brother Michael Dorsey. I do agree with what you have written, & especially noted, "The only perfect translation You are going to find is to have the Original Manuscripts". I too have used Bible Hub for years, mainly for its Hebrew & Greek Lexicons & found it to be very good & useful in better understanding words (especially those debatable ones) giving me a fuller understanding of the passage. However, one Greek brother who comes on here sometimes, did check me on what I had once written to someone (when giving a meaning of a word). He said that in Greek, my advice given was incorrect & he went further to do research on why that word was used. Apparently, it wasn't taken from the Greek text as given in the Textus Receptus, but from another source. So I say this, as one may need to take care, seeing that Bible Hub doesn't necessarily use the TR/KJB as the source material for publishing its Greek words.

And even here on this Site, a little while ago there has been debate on the word 'perfect', as found in e.g. Matthew 5:48, Matthew 19:21, 1 Corinthians 2:6. This word 'perfect' has been used by some here to denote, 'sinlessness', that we have to be, or even now, are sinless. Not sure of your position on this, but reading the Greek, 'teleios', seems to indicate more towards 'completeness, full-grown, mature'. Now in Matthew 5:48 we have a problem, we see that Jesus gives the command, to "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." So, clearly the absolute perfection that our Father fully has within Himself, cannot be the same that we need to have/strive for on Earth: that is, not towards sinlessness, but towards maturity & completeness. So, I share this just to show how important the original languages are to assist us in understanding God's Word, and especially the KJB (17th Century) which uses language & expressions that sometimes are quite foreign to us here in the 21st Century.

Page 2.

Prior to the Cross, man stood on HIS faith & acceptable works - after the Cross, man stands without any of that - only on the Work of the Holy Spirit, regenerating the old sinful heart and giving Faith (by God's Grace) to believe ( Ephesians 2:8); the Spirit's permanent indwelling bringing continual spiritual renewal; the Spirit's baptizing into Christ's Body (adoption), and the Spirit's Seal of ownership & security. If a repenting sinner has experienced such a Work of the Spirit in his heart & life, he can have full confidence that the Spirit will always guide, keep, warn, & discipline if necessary, so that God's child would never be lost into the world - indeed would never ever desire the world & its enticements. If this Work of the Spirit of God were not ALL of God's Work alone to secure a sinner, then the Work of the Cross has failed, & we may just as well go back to following a set of rules with sacrifices (works), hoping for a good outcome.

We can be confident that if God has done this wonderful Work of Salvation in a person's life, then that Work is permanent & will never fail. If we believe that a 'believer' can one day spurn God's Love & turn his back on Him forever, then the Bible assures us that that work was not of God, but of man - for God, by His Word & Work of His Spirit can never fail. This is the God I have fully placed my trust in - if He was any less that what He has declared in the Bible & revealed personally in my life, then I will admit that I am on very shaky ground. Blessings.

Page 1.

Thank you Valmar. To respond & also I'm in agreement with you, No, the Triune God never changes - as well as His requirement of faith to please Him & be acceptable to Him. The OT folk were accepted by God because of their faith in Him for Who He was (as revealed to them) & they were confident that He would fulfill all that He had promised to them. Those who died in their sins were the disobedient & faithless & could never please Him & suffered under His Hand. So, the essential requirement was Faith & when the Law & Commandments came to them, they were to obey fully in their strength, looking unto their Maker only.

So, what changed with the coming of Jesus Christ? Faith was still the requirement ( Hebrews 11:6), but it was no longer a human faith, based on human works, to be acceptable to God. The OT faithful (looking forward) would have their sins paid for at Calvary, just as those who would believe from Israel & Gentiles post-Calvary. But now, we don't receive a set of rules to follow to please God - we don't muster up (our) faith to be acceptable - and we contribute nothing in works (sacrifices, feasts, sabbaths, washings, etc.) towards our salvation.

For this reason, I sought your thoughts on the work of the Holy Spirit, He Who was sent by Jesus ( John 15:26; John 16:7; Galatians 4:6), a Spirit that the OT faithful never received for the renewing & enlivening of their hearts - only at Pentecost such a mighty Work of God took place. God indeed has not changed, but the Cross has changed how man stands before God. To Page 2.

The geographical land of Israel has been left desolate, by God, on purpose. Punishment for rejecting Christ. If only they had known the hour of their visitation.

He will be ministering in the heavenly temple.

Valmar, U hope your

Thanksgiving is very happy, meaningful, and full of love.

Amen, Lord, bring your mighty arm against the terrorists that war against Israel.

Dear Dixiechick,

I agree with you in prayer for the salvation of all in your family. tonight I pray for your grandson who is using drugs.

Dear LORD God, we ask that You deliver this young man from drug use and heal his mind and body from the effects and bondage of drugs. We ask that You draw him near to You and soften his heart to turn to You in a cry for help and salvation. We lift up this niece who needs Your love more than anything. Deliver her from trying to get this love from people who cannot satisfy as You can. turn her heart around to You and open it up to receive Your love and grace. We lift up all of Dixiechicks family before You and ask that You bring all to saving faith soon. Restore this whole family to faith and godliness in Jesus name. Amen.

Pray that my children and grandchildren and my immediate family would find God. One of my grandsons is relying on drugs. I've been praying for his deliverance so please join in agreement with me that God will change his lifestyle. My other grandson is trying so hard to do right and needs our prayers. I have one grand daughter in the Navy and I pray for her safety while away so far from home. My other grand daughter has a problem of not being loved. Her mother just threw her around from house to house and when you try to love he4 she gets very hateful and uses such foul language. She is presently living in sin with a guy.

I know God has his hand on my family for I'm believing with all my heart that they will be saved. Also pray for my Neice,s husband suffering from congestive heart failure. In general just pray for all my family and friends. God knows each one. Thank you!!

Please pray for me to find knowledge and understanding of Gods word. May God help me to grow in his word that I may be approved.

P.S. Oh, I forgot to mention that I have also entreated the Lord for you and your wive's health issues:)

Hadassah,

Thank you for the post you have sent me, but as I mentioned earlier, I do not believe in "soul sleep." I know the Seventh Day Adventists teach this, but I do not agree with it. When my fleshly body dies, it will give the appearance of sleeping, but I will not be there. I will be with the Lord and one day, my body will be raised as a glorified body, and my soul/spirit will be reunited with a new body. If I am sleeping in the bosom of the Lord when I die, my question to you is "Where will the Lord be?"

I pray for peace in Jerusalem. Lord please protect Israel, and all the civilians. Please bring peace to Jerusalem, your beautiful city. Let it be a place of peace and recover the glory it once had. In Jesus name, Amen!

Dear sir, the Bible says we are dead to sin! When Jesus Christ was crucified, we were. When Jesus was buried, we were. When Jesus rose, we rose! When we get saved, we are (Spirit) baptized into Jesus Christ! This is all laid out perfectly in Romans 6:1-10 (Please read.) What are we to do now that we know the wonderful truth? Finish reading the chapter. We are to simply reckon it to be true, and yield are bodies to God, our precious Saviour. This is the truth of what GOD said. Believe him and rest in him! With love, your fellowservant in Christ.

Rainwalker:

Here are the commandments of God we are to live by.

Deuteronomy 8:3 ..... but by every word .....

Matthew 4:4 .... but by every word .....

Proverbs 14:15 The simple believeth every word .....

Not 10 commandments, but every WORD (all his words are commandments).

God Bless you

Jesse, when you fall asleep, you sleep in the bosom of the LORD who does not slumber or sleep. He keeps you safe in his care while you are sleeping. Then, in the morning (resurrection day) he will wake you up. Call you forth.

As a Minister I often refer to Bible Hub. I Preach out of the King James Version. But People need to understand this . It is not a perfect translation. The only perfect translation You are going to find is to have the Original Manuscripts. And be able to read Greek, Latin and Hebrew of the Ancient World. I find that the other Interpretations shed more light on the Verse without getting crazy out far from the meaning. I would recommend Anyone to Read and learn from the KJV. But as I've said the Bible Hub shows the same verse worded differently in several Interpretations. I use the descriptions of these in my explanation of breaking down the KJV. For those struggling to understand or a New Convert . There is no shame in using all the material available today to learn. If You are sincere God is going to show You how and what to follow when confusion arises. My Father in Law who passed away in 2000 . I was Saved under His Ministry. He had books and Materials by Men that were not particularly in His Christian wheelhouse so to speak. But He always said, You take Their Knowledge and You use it because They are smart Men. You are still going to believe what You believe. I think there is such a Stigma or Shame put on People if They don't go to anything but the KJV. I believe God gave it to Us . I believe it to be the Preferred Choice of Text. But I also believe People should be open to learning. It wasn't until the KJV was published that Man even really knew about Scripture. And this goes back to Moses and the Law . By keeping Man in the dark it allowed Others to hold Power over Them. Ezra built a Homemade Pulpit and taught the People and They asked Questions for the first time EVER and actually cried at hearing The Word of God. Jesus tore down The Elitist System some 2000 years ago of Pharisees and Manmade Sway . We don't need to Rebuild it again. But as soon as Christ got out of sight at Bethany. Man was already busy becoming Man again.

Reverend Michael Ray Dorsey

Ronald,

(Part 2 of 2):

Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Here, we see a gift of God being given, and that gift is eternal life. Since God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are eternal, and I receive the gift of the Holy Spirit as it says in Acts 2:38, I believe I can say I have received eternal life. I can say that I have the eternal one living in me, and He has promised to never leave me.

Eternal life for me began the day that I was born of God's Spirit, the day I received Christ. Now if Christ is not eternal, then I cannot say I have eternal life. But if Christ is eternal, and He lives in me, then I can say with confidence that I currently have eternal life. Jesus said that He would never leave me nor forsake me. So, the question I must ask is when I physically die, does Jesus also remain in the grave with me and sleep?



Ronald, my apologies if this was too long. I do thank you for sharing what you believe. We both know that we will not always agree with each other on everything, but you have shared many things that I do agree with you on, and I hope that I have done the same.

God bless you also, my brother in Christ!

Hello Ronald,

(Part 1 of 2):

Thank you for sharing your understanding on this topic. I always enjoy my discussions with you. We are in agreement that God is love. In fact, God is Agape, the highest form of love that exists. We are in agreement that God does not have pleasure in the death of the wicked. That's why He has provided a way for the wicked to be redeemed. We are in agreement that God does not want us to perish. Some take this word perish to mean cease to exist completely. Some teach annihilation. That, I do not agree with. I also don't agree that Hell is only the grave because both believers and non-believers alike are going to end up in a grave (unless the Lord comes for us first).

I agree that the bible tells in Ezekiel Chapter 18 that the soul that sinneth shall die. I believe it is the soul that makes up our entire being. Can our fleshly body exist without a soul? As far as salvation goes, did Christ come to redeem our flesh, or did He come to redeem our soul? I say that my soul has been redeemed, not my flesh. My flesh is rotten to the core! I agree that there are different degrees of punishment, but as you know, I also believe that whatever the degree of punishment is, it will be forever.

In my studies of the Greek, I have come to learn that the word for death means separation. This is why I believe that when our physical body of flesh dies, our soul will separate from our fleshly body. The body will rot and decay in the grave, not cease to exist as some say. I do not believe in soul sleep.

I do agree with you that eternal life is a promise. However, what we differ on is when this eternal life begins. For me, I believe I have eternal life right now. There are several verses in scripture that speak of eternal life/salvation being present tense ( 1 John 5:11, 1 John 5:13, John 17:3, John 10:28-30, John 3:36, John 4:14, 1 Timothy 6:12). These are just some verses that speak of eternal salvation being present, not future.

Part 2 to follow...

verse 25

"And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as He hath commanded us."

Well, we know how that went. The Israelites found out that they could not, would not, and failed miserably to gain righteousness on their own because they were unable to keep from breaking God's commands. The Law shows us our sinfulness and our need for a Savior. The Israelites as a whole, must have thought that they could fall back on the sacrificial system to remove their sins when they failed God. But they could not truly say they gained their own righteousness because they could not keep the Law.

Only Jesus is righteous, completely sinless, and worthy of God's acceptance as a truly human person. His divine nature always remained divine, but His human nature needed to choose obedience to God always, and He did. His righteousness is imputed to us because He was the perfectly acceptable sacrifice for our sins. He did what we could never do, never sin, and be of such worth that His sacrifice took away all of our sins.

The Israelites grew accustomed to sinning against God, going after idols, and forgetting Him who delivered them from bondage. May we not fall into such a state. Thank God for giving us the Holy Spirit, without Whom we would not be able to continue in faith and obedience to God every day. God provides us with all we need for life and godliness through the work of Jesus for us and by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us to sanctify us and empower us to desire to obey our God and Savior. He is the only One who can save us. Let always be turned toward Him, seeking Him wholeheartedly, hiding His word in our hearts, and sharing the hope we possess in Jesus, our Lord.

Thanks for your response to my post, Momsage. I was sorry to hear that your marriage ended in divorce. Living for the Lord is a daily challenge and I know the pitfalls of becoming like the prodigal son and wanting to get away and have 'fun' that this world can offer. Or I have also felt the need to start becoming slack in my service to Him. That tends to only snowball into a routine of not studying His Word or praying or assembling together with other believers. It sounds like the Spirit has gotten you back on track, so keep reading, praying and going even if you think it's no use or just the same ole same ole stuff. Remember you have to bring your body and mind into subjection to His service and not your whims. Again, thanks and have a good Thanksgiving with your family. Thanks for your time...

Good evening, Chris. I find it fascinating that people have such a difficult time with thinking their salvation may not be secure. Answer me this, does God change? Does Jesus change? Does the Holy Spirit change? The answer to all those is no, of course not. Then why would God 'change' His requirements for a relationship with Him? He wouldn't. What is the main difference between the Old and New Testaments? The advent of Christ and His sacrifice on the cross for all mankind, including those who lived prior to His earthly life starting in Bethlehem. While believers in the OT went to Paradise, as opposed to Heaven, they were still God's children and were in Paradise until Christ's crucifixion and resurrection set them free (so to speak) to go to Heaven. All that to say this, do you recall anyone speaking of eternal security for the likes of Abraham, Noah, Moses, Rahab, Seth or David? No, you haven't because it didn't exist even though when they died and went to Paradise, they could never lose their relationship with God and be booted over the chasm to Hades.

So, why all of a sudden with Christ's birth, death, and resurrection, do we suddenly decide that God has provided eternal security for us? If according to Psalms 55:19, 102:27, Daniel 7:14, Malachi 3:6 and Hebrews 1:12, 13:8, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit do not change, then let's quit convincing ourselves they do. Have a good Thanksgiving and thanks for your time...

PS OT saints got in the book of Life the 'old-fashioned' way, trust and obedience. It works every time. Amen.