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1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are ASLEEP, that you sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of SLEEP: for now is our salvation nearer than when we first believed.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and arose again, even so them also which SLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us NOT SLEEP, as do others; but us watch an be sober.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are ASLEEP.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the DEAD IN CHRIST shall RISE FIRST (first resurrection)( Revelation 20:5):
Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead that DIE IN THE LORD from henceforth .....
I BELIEVE this is the FIRST DEATH and the first resurrection also describe in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
I BELIEVE the ONLY one that hears this shout and trumpet is the one being CALLED to take part in the first resurrection. I come as a thief in the night. If everyone heard, it would no be as a thief.
Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed unto men to die..I BELIEVE this is the same death in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Revelation 14:13...but after this the judgement.
I BELIEVE this judgement is by God's WORD; both written and living, on those that have their part in the first resurrection. 1 Peter 4:17
I BELIEVE 1 Thessalonians 4 is about those that take part in the first resurrection and are present with Christ upon his return at the second resurrection.
What difference is there in the snatching up, whether it be one at a time or collectively.
Hello Helen,
Just a few scriptures that say about the bride/bridegroom.
Matthew 25:1-46 - Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Ephesians 5:27 - That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Mark 2:19-20 - And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.
Revelation 19:7-9 - Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. (Read More...)
Revelation 21:2 - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Isaiah 54:5 - For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
Zelma Shalom
The bride is the church (believers). Could you permit me to copy/send me a copy of the 7 steps to Jews wedding.
We need to read and get ready/rehearsal for His Coming or we miss out.
To the other reply I would have to respond that except for the fact that Jesus clarifies that it is a spiritual re-birth that He is talking about. He was not speaking about a physical body resurrection when He told Nicodemus a person must be born again. If that were the case, I guess we can say that Lazarus was "born again" and then died a second time. we know he physically died twice, but when he came up out of the grave, does that mean he was born-again? I don't believe so! Maybe born again Christians and those who believe in a rapture, or as you say "rapturists" do drink from the same well. That very well might be. But we know which well we are drinking from, and it is a well that never runs dry!
The Marriage Supper of the Lamb will occur when Christ returns to physically marry His betrothed Bride, which is the church ( Matt. 22:1-14; Rev. 19:7-8). It is called a supper because the Light of Christ will eat, or devour all spiritual darkness on earth, and because the fowl will eat the flesh of all men, small and great ( Rev. 19:17-18). The fowl which fly in the midst of heaven represent the angels God will dispatch to execute His judgment upon the ungodly.
Concerning 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and the rapture, Christ does mention "the one being taken and another left" during eschatological events associated with the Second Coming ( Matt. 24:40-41). However, His words should be examined in light of Matthew 13:24-30 and 24:31 in which Christ speaks of angels taking or gathering people to a specific location. Scripture speaks of a hiding place ( Zech. 14:4-5), or a bunker of sorts (Is. 26:20-21) where the elect will go or will be taken, which Christ calls His barn ( Matt. 13:30). The concept of a mass catching away and the disappearance of believers all over the world is a concept of Christian fiction which became popular in the mid-to-late 1990s. The earliest evidence of the concept being introduced into mainstream Christendom began with John Darby in 1827, whose teachings influenced Cyrus Scofield, publisher of the Scofield Bible.
May God bless you both, and thank you for your passion for His word!
The Marriage Supper of the Lamb will occur when Christ returns to physically marry His betrothed Bride, which is the church ( Matt. 22:1-14; Rev. 19:7-8). It is called a supper because the Light of Christ will eat, or devour all spiritual darkness on earth, and because the fowl will eat the flesh of all men, small and great ( Rev. 19:17-18). The fowl which fly in the midst of heaven represent the angels God will dispatch to execute His judgment upon the ungodly.
Concerning 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and the rapture, Christ does mention "the one being taken and another left" during eschatological events associated with the Second Coming ( Matt. 24:40-41). However, His words should be examined in light of Matthew 13:24-30 and 24:31 in which He speaks of angels taking or gathering people to a specific location. Scripture speaks of a hiding place ( Zech. 14:4-5), or a bunker of sorts (Is. 26:20-21) where the elect will go or will be taken, which Christ calls His barn ( Matt. 13:30). The concept of a mass catching away and the disappearance of believers all over the world is a concept of Christian fiction which became popular in the mid-to-late 1990s. The earliest evidence of the concept being introduced into mainstream Christendom began with John Darby in 1827, whose teachings influenced Cyrus Scofield, publisher of the Scofield Bible.
May God bless you both, and thank you for your passion for His word!
What you are saying is making a little more sense. I can agree about the down payment of the purchased possession. We have been purchased but not yet redeemed. One day Christ will come for His purchased possession. It's like we are sitting at the "will call" waiting for the one who purchased us to come pick us up.
As far as given the fullness of Christ, I'm not sure I can agree on that one. I believe when we die that we go to be with Him. As believers, we may be able to experience the fullness of Christ (MAKARIOS) while we are here, but until we receive our glorified bodies, we don't have the fullness yet. And it is a waiting period before we receive our glorified body. That does not happen at the point of physical death.
And yes, the meaning of Revelation has never changed. But when I look at it, I have to myself who it's referring to and who it's not referring to because not everything in it pertains to those in Christ Jesus. Some portions pertain to believers, and some to non-believers. But it is an important book for us all to read and study. In fact, it is the only book in the bible that offers a special blessing to those who read it.
I do thank you for sharing your thoughts with me. I still would like your take on 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, the "caught up" portion especially. I know I've asked three times now and I am not trying to be a pest. If you choose not to answer this, that's okay. I won't bug you about it again!
There is no difference. In Matthew's gospel, the phrase kingdom of heaven is used most of the time. This could be because the letter was written to the Jews and the Jews do not say the name God. In their writings, they either use G-d, or they just use the word Hashem when referring to God which means "the name."
The soul that sinneth it shall DIE.
Spirit CANNOT DIE.
The reconstituted creation did not contain the same evil which previously existed. Rather, evil was introduced when Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit. Paul states, "The whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now" ( Rom. 8:22).
Lastly, Christ is the only source of light and goodness in the entire creation, which includes all humankind, elect and non-elect. The only good inside of any person is Christ. In the born-again process the Holy Spirit opens the believer's eyes to Christ as that inner source of goodness, and places a name and face on the source. Similarly, light had been in the creation for three days before God brought forth the Sun as the source of the Light on the fourth day ( Gen. 1:3, 16; Mal. 4:2). Also, Christ spiritually permeated the world as the source of goodness for 4,000 years before He was born, and God put a name and face on the source of Light! Amen!
Thank you for your exceptional knowledge of God our Lord Jesus Christ.. Sir, it seems that people are having a hard time knowing what is sin.....where to find the sins.....I told my friend that the Old Testament has them listed....in the first 5 Books of the Bible.... they told me that those are for the Jewish people ...I calmly answered her saying..." Do we learn from the Jew's that there is even a God that spoke to Abraham , Moses, Mary? Do we say that we taught ourselves about sin....from the New Testament.....Paul listed 22 in Romans 3....She said that we are not under the laws....but are saved by Grace....I said that is right to a point...We are to repent of our sin , Believe that Jesus Christ to them to the Cross, died with them and arose clean and arose to Heaven...All we hear of is repent of sin but please share the list. Thank you, Faye
This truth is rejected because it don't go over well with those who don't believe in eternal security. They believe you want know you're saved until after the judgment. Here's one of their supposed defining verse.
1 Peter 1:5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ( READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME.)
This scripture is the lord showing his faithfulness in coming to redeem his possession that he purchased with his own blood purchase.
Salvation is not being revealed, The Possession is.
Let's look at that scripture taking it from verse 3.
1 Peter 1:3-5. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a "LIVELY HOPE" by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
To an inheritance INCORRUPTIBLE, and UNDEFILED, and that FADETH NOT AWAY, ( RESERVED ) IN HEAVEN FOR YOU,
Who are "KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD" through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
INCORRUPTIBLE, UNDEFILED, FADETH NOT AWAY, RESERVED, KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD. Ready to be revealed.
Sure sounds like we can count on it!!
God bless.
I think you'll find out what my camp is here in a moment. It all pretty much centers around this trumpet. All it says in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 is that the trump, or trumpet of God is going to sound. It doesn't say the last trumpet. In the book of Revelation, there are judgments that break out when different seals on the book are broken. The next to the last group are seven trumpet judgments.
And at the blowing of each trumpet, there are certain judgments that are poured out upon the earth. And there is a seventh trumpet. It's not called the last trumpet. It's called the seventh trumpet.
Those who believe that the rapture's going to happen after the tribulation, and right before the second coming, they use 1 Corinthians 15:51 and the book of Revelation to show that the seventh trumpet is the trumpet of God, or the last trumpet, as 1 Corinthians Chapter 15 calls it.
They say that since the seventh is the last trumpet, that's when the rapture's going to happen which means it's after the tribulation period and right before His second coming.
Well, there are a lot of problems with that point of view.
First of all, here's the trumpet of God in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4. In 1 Corinthians 15:50, it's called the last trumpet. That's a title. In the book of Revelation, one through seven trumpet, those are titles. It's the seventh trumpet. It's not called the last trumpet but the seventh trumpet.
So we have different titles that do not connect. Yes, the seventh trumpet, obviously if that's the last one that's blown, that's the last one. But it is not "the" last trumpet. That's a title.
If you mind I would like to add to the ruckus. lol.
Just to answer your question directly we don't worry about the soul.
We're concerned about the Spirit.
I don't believe they're the same.
"If I'm not mistaking" I believe your soul is connected to this earthly body. It wars against our Spirit,
Our Spirit will be connected with our Spiritual body where there will be no more Sin.
Psalms 16:9-10. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Brother Jesse or Brother Chris can check me on that, I do value their opinion.
As well as others.
Our natural birth we was born "Children of Adam. a living soul but spiritually dead! Our motions in our members was one with the Law " Ministration of condemnation " When we were born again "Born from above" We died in Adam and was born of the second Adam. "Christ" "A quickening spirit"
REFERENCE VERSES:
1 Corinthians 15:45-47.
2 Corinthians 3:6-10.
Romans 7:4-11.
We are hidden in Christ and that will never change, Your body goes in the ground, your spirit is with the Lord," He in you and you in Him.
Romans 6:3-5.
Colossians 3:3-4. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
1 Thessalonians 4:14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, EVEN SO THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP IN JESUS WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM.
The body SLEEP in th ground and is raised a spirit body! and the spirit goes to Jesus. " How else could he bring it with him?"
John 14:19-20.
John 11:26. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
I hope that helps, If not you're probably confused times 10.
God bless.
When he was practicing his handwriting skills, I asked him to copy short chapters in Proverbs, onto a sheet of paper.
My motivation was for him to learn the dangers of "running with the pack." Which he did. He learned to be a leader and think independently: To know when to withdraw himself from activities that would get him into trouble.
My praise is unto God. He watches over His Word. It accomplishes that which it was sent to do.
It was a 45 minute bit of time, for me to drive home from work, when he did this. It was random; didn't happen every day. They shouldn't feel they are being punished.
His reward was a Saturday at the water park, up the street. I learned to do house chores, other times, so this one day could be very special.
Kids grow up and we are alone again. To see them excel in life, and be involved in their kids "free times" is a huge thank you to God for His leadership.
Being left alone too much, teaches insecurity with self-imposed fences.
The Lord bless you with resolve and ideas to grow love that blooms.
Very well said! A person who is born of God's Spirit will produce fruit because it is His Spirit in them that produces the spiritual fruit. Those who are cut off are the ones who do not have Christ and therefore are unable to produce fruit. This word abide is the word MENO and it denotes permanency. God's Spirit abides (Remains) in a believer permanently and there will always be fruit. It is impossible for a believer who has the Spirit of God in them and there be no fruit.
It's like the parable of the fig tree. Jesus came to the fig tree when He was hungry and He expected there to be fruit on it. I'm not sure if you are aware of this or not, but a fig tree is not like other fruit trees. Other fruit trees grow the leaves first, and then the fruit comes afterwards. A fig tree produces the fruit first before there are any leaves on the tree. But Jesus comes to this fig tree that was full of leaves but it had no fruit. It should have had fruit because the fruit on a fig tree comes before the leaves do. But it was a dead tree. And we know what happened to it!
I agree with what you are saying. If I may just share one thing about the "commandment" to love one another. In the original language, it is not written as a command for us to love one another. It is written as a statement of fact, meaning that if we have God's Spirit living in us, (we will) love one another. Our English bibles list it as a command, but the Greek text does not give it as a command, but a factual statement. You will love each other because God's Spirit in you is the one that produces that type of love. Again, the Greek text gives it as a factual statement, not a command for us to go out and do it!
Thank you for sharing this. It looks very solid to me!
What does "caught up" mean? The original language uses the word HARPADZO which means to be snatched away by force. What is your understanding?
Yes, it will be by force certainly. Revelation 11:v.15 to 18:
15 ... The kingdoms of THIS WORLD (the Devil's world) are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
...
18 - AND THE NATIONS WERE (WILL BE) ANGRY, and thy wrath is come(GOD's WRATH IS COME), and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and that thou(GOD) should give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and should DESTROY them which destroy the earth.
Revelation 2:v.25 to 29:
25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Be careful and get ready
P.S.
Joshua 5:v.13-14
13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come.
There will be War against the world of Devil, in fact it has already started.
Get ready
Quote: >>>The original language uses the word HARPADZO which means to be snatched away by force. What is your understanding?
"They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." - John 17:15-17
"When the temporary becomes a higher priority for us than the eternal we have lost our way and in so doing we lose the many blessings that God wants to shower upon us." --Lynn Cooper
There is nothing we can do to save us, Rom. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom. 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Did Abraham repent of his sins?
Rom. 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
And these examples are just in the beginning of Romans
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Hebrews 11 "the faith chapter" verse 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. etc. etc. So.....
After salvation we should strive to live as God want us to live , and to show his love, die each day to ourselves and allow the Spirit of God to lead us but once saved always saved you cannot loose your salvation.
It shouldn't be a requirement. I'm not saying that church isn't important because I believe church is like a spiritual hospital. But we shouldn't put a guilt trip on other believers if they don't show up every weekend. Jesus commanded us to follow Him. Maybe the Lord is not leading us there on a certain day. We have to follow Christ. Where is He leading us?
It says not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together. This is not to people who have stopped coming to fellowship. It's speaking to people who are continuing to fellowship. He's saying don't leave off from assembling ourselves together as the manner of some is.
Some have already dropped out. It's the encouragement for those who are coming and who are fellowshipping. It's for those who are still coming, who waiver, and every once in a while have doubts, are weak at times, and feel like dropping out. We're to consider one another, be perceptive about provoking one another to do things that are right in the eyes of the Lord. When we sense someone possibly wanting to drop out, it says to exhort one another, encourage!
By assembling ourselves together, we are encouraging. Being faithful to do what the Lord wants us to do without saying anything is a ministry of encouragement. It actually affects other believers who are weak in the faith, who almost didn't show up when the believers gathered together to worship or study.
Some encourage others to come, and they come. But then the ones who did the encouraging, they only show up every now and then. It's about faithfulness which is the greatest spiritual influence that a believer can have on another believer. That doesn't mean that if you don't attend that there's something wrong. It's about being faithful to what the Lord wants you to do, and maybe the Lord doesn't want you there (Not you personally). But if we sense that the Lord wants us there, even if we don't get anything out of it, that's where God wants us to be as an encouragement to others.
At the death of our worldly flesh we are GIVEN the FULLNESS of Christ.
I don't believe we have to WAIT.
Twice in Revelation it says for the TIME IS AT HAND.
I BELIEVE every thing in Revelation; since John wrote this, is relevant to that person reading it, during their lifetime. It has the same meaning to those 1900 years ago as it does to us today. The beast, the false prophet, the devil, the fowls of the air, the lake of fire, the first resurrection, the second death, the seals, the plagues, the vials, the wedding supper, the marriage, the 42 months.
All of the GOSPEL has the same meaning; the future always becomes the present.
The WORD says I speak of things that are going to be, as if they are.
The main events before the beginning of the last week of Dan.9:27.
See below what will happen from now on.The last week is not too far to start.Here goes the events that will preceed the last week as was prophesied by Dan.9:27:
- Death of Pope Francis, the rule and guide of the powerfull religious MONSTER of 7 heads, and 10 horns, and upon his horns(10 kings) ten crowns, and upon his 7 heads the name of blasphemy.-Vicarius Filli Dei;
- The Beast of the earth with two horns LIKE A LAMB rises up in Israel;(earth is Israel-the clay- Isaiah 64:v.8-the dry land- Genesis 1:v.9);
- Election of the a new Pope-his pseudo-name or nickname may be Paulus VII(Rev.17:10);
- Then the Beast of the earth LIKE A LAMB will manifest himself as God in Israel;in fact a false messiah,an esoteric, and kabbalistic, and spiritist false messiah;Then there will be two powerful and satanic Beasts in the Earth;
- The esoteric and kabblistic,and spiritist Beast of the earth will make great signs and wonders of lie,even makes fire come down to the earth before men;Rev.13:13-15;
- The Pope Paulus VII will meet the Beast like lamb;
- Both will develop an union between the RCC and Judaism, iron with clay- Dan. 2:41-43-but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay;
- A religious and universal satanic Empire will be build by both religious leaders-Rev.11:1-2;
- The esoteric and kabbalistic,and spiritist Beast of the earth-the false messiah of the Jews- will make a deal with the Beast of sea-the Papacy-,and the Beast of earth,the false messaiah-AN IMPOSTOR-will give to the Beast of sea his Power,and his Throne, and great Authority.Then,the Antichrist's Empire is conceived by both satanic Beasts;
All events listed above,some will will happen before starting the last week-Dan.9:27,for example,the death of Pope Francis,others during the week as soon it starts,and others in the middle of the week and until the consumation.
Get ready
The church IS NOT made with man's hands of wood and stone.
The TEMPLE (church) is CHRIST.
When you are born of the word of God; the temple (Christ) comes and abides IN YOU, making you ALSO the temple of God.
Now; the FATHER and SON live in you, the temple. This is all it takes to be gathered together in the TRUE church; with two or three, the Father, the Son and YOU.
24/7
GBU
I guess we just see it differently. You see the battle of Armageddon as something that has been going on for the last two-thousand years, whereas I see it as the last great battle on earth that is a future event. I don't really see it as a battle between flesh and spirit, but a literal battle that takes place in the valley of Megiddo, a literal place. If this battle has been going on for two-thousand years, wouldn't we know about it? When I read about this battle, it speaks in future tense, not present tense. I still believe that the "one taken" is taken into judgment, and in Luke's account, it answers the question. We can also see in Revelation that it is God who draws the people and the armies into the valley of Megiddo for that last great battle. These armies will fight against Christ when He returns and will be totally destroyed. This battle has not taken place yet.
From what I see in Revelation chapter 19, the marriage feast will be taking place in heaven while destruction is taking place on earth. This destruction of the flesh spoken of in Revelation 19:17-18 is talking about an invitation for the birds, the fowl of the air to come and feast on the dead bodies that will be the result of Christ slaying the nations. Future event! John was given the vision of the battle of Armageddon in Revelation 19:19-21. This battle has not taken place yet. We're going to have to remain in disagreement on this since you see it as in the present, and I see it as future. I don't think we can come to the same conclusion this way.
I'm having a hard time coming to the same conclusion that we become sons of God after physical death. I believe we become sons of God the moment we receive Christ. That is given to us in John 1:12.
If you don't mind, I'm interested in your take on 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. What does "caught up" mean? The original language uses the word HARPADZO which means to be snatched away by force. What is your understanding?
Thanks for your time!
"But David took not the number of them from twenty years old and under: because the LORD had said he would increase Israel like to the stars of the heavens."
Amen on Luke 17.