All Discussion PAGE 2947

I am in total agreement with you, Danny Donaldson. What happens is that some Christians think the Rapture is before the Tribulation so, they have to somehow account for Christians killed during the Tribulation for their testimony of Christ. However, they also claim, erroneously, that the Holy Spirit is taken away. They completely overlook the fact that what Christ said will apply even through the Tribulation. Everyone who believes is sealed with the Spirit of Promise. So while on the one hand they say Christians are Raptured, the Church and the Holy Spirit are taken away before the Tribulation, on the other hand they claim there will be a Church during the Tribulation. Problem is, they don't consider Believers converted during the Tribulation to be part of the Church.

Two other problems with that position are that if the Holy Spirit is taken away, who will convict sinners of sin? Who will Seal new Believers? Who will lead them into Truth? If the Church is taken away, who will spread the message of Christ? How can they believe without a preacher?

Most significantly, however, is that their position is not realistic. It is a fantasy developed from conjecture and feelings, rather than Scripture. What Scripture can they produce to support their point of view? None. Because there aren't any. The only places where the Bible tells us when the Rapture is going to be are all based on Christ's revelation that it will be Immediately After the Great Tribulation.

Unfortunately, their argument is superficial and based on unsubstantiated supposition. So you are exactly right, Danny. I was almost kicked out of a Bible Institute because I dared question the Administrator about the time of the Second Coming. And that was before I knew the difference. And after I preached a sermon based on Salvation by Grace, borrowed from Charles Spurgeon, the Pastor stood up, called me a liar, and told congregants not to believe anything I said. But Spurgeon was right. And so are you.

Four of us meet every Thursday evening for prayer, we have for over two months. God is putting us together in one accord, It's to see what God will do when we let God have his way.

Pray for us if you will. Thank You.

You need to put The Mark in the search box as you enter this website and read all of the scriptures and even the whole chapter, to have a working knowledge of it.

If you take it, there will be no way to gain entrance to heaven, ever.

If you don't take it, you may be executed.

Best option is to be born again today!

Go watch Dwight Thompson on youtube, preaching 'what to do if you miss the rapture'. It's an old sermon but it's very relevant. I met Dwight; he's an evangelist. He cares about people's souls. You can pray the sinners prayer at the end of the sermon.

Don't get side tracked by OPINIONS of other people.

Danny,

If this happens in our lifetime and you are still here, you are going to have two choices: either take the mark of the beast and (maybe) live for another 3-1/2 years, or refuse to take the mark. Those are your two choices. If you take the mark, you will be part of the antichrist's religious and economic system, which will allow you to buy food and the things you need to survive for that short period of time. Taking that mark will also mean that you have chosen to worship the antichrist. But if you refuse to take the mark, you will be killed, probably beheaded. But just keep in mind that if you choose to take the mark to save your life here, you will no longer have an opportunity for salvation. If you take the mark, you will end up in the lake of fire. If you are faced with that decision, you might want to choose Christ!

Success in ministry

They each may have taught different things, but the gospel message did not change. Paul's teachings are also the teachings of Christ, as Paul was taught one-on-one directly from Christ.

Jesse, It's OK. You can believe anything you want. It does't mean you are less of a Christian. I am just stating what I understand. But don't let it upset you. I could be wrong. What's important is Christ, not whether we understand or agree on every detail of Scripture. Good talking to you.

Robert, you are welcome to use anything I write here. But how do we find you in YouTube. There are many. Which one are you?

I totally agree with you on this matter i believe the rapture will take place after the great tribulation. I even asked my pastor about it. He said that. Its for the ones that believe after the rapture and come to christ. But my reply is. There is only 1 2nd coming of christ not 3

I know we are to follow the laws of the land but when they come out with the law to take the mark of the beast what do we do ? Do we still follow the law or break it

Yes, thanks Bob for pointing that out. Matthew 24:2 was fulfilled, not partly, but completely, when Titus came in and destroyed the temple in 70 A.D. I guess it would have been more correct for me to say that at the time Matthew was written (60's A.D) everything was written as future events that had not yet been fulfilled, including Verse 2, the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. If the question had been asked if all these things were to be future events when Matthew was written, the answer would have been yes. If it was asked if any of the things in this chapter already have happened, I would have given a different response. But just looking at the question, it seemed like a general open-ended question. If you notice, I never mentioned Verse 2 at all. I started from Verse 4 and went from there, and those are future events.

Youtube? Is that a good source to get bible truth from?

Well Carlos,

I suppose that's where we differ. You believe that the message Christ was giving in Matt. 24-25 was to the church, and I believe He was giving this warning to the Jewish people. I can share my basis of belief, but like I said, what would be the use since I'm sure you will shoot down whatever it is that draws me to the conclusion of a Pre-Tribulation rapture. I asked you in a previous thread, the one that got shut down, why do you continue hounding me about the rapture? How long are you going to drag this on? I do not have an issue with you because you believe in Post Trib. Why would you have an issue with me?

A brother in Christ did an excellent study and it looks like they are two from each of the twelve boundaries on the earth, going back to when the Lord separated the people and confounded their language Genesis 11.

Donna,

Jesus chose Judas as one of the 12 because He needed someone who was evil to carry out this plot as it was predicted in prophecy. He didn't make him evil. He chose an evil person to fulfill that purpose.

Geof: there's a video on YouTube by Stan Telchin. (who was a Jew). He has passed. He has a book with much info in it, where all the Jews fled to.

His daughter got saved at college. He launched himself to prove that Christianity was all wrong. He ended up getting saved at a conference; when he got home he was happy to find out that his wife had gotten saved too.

It gives insight into Jewish thought.

He wrote a book called, Betrayed.

Jesse, the reason I emphasize the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation, is because I believer Christ was telling us to prepare for the Tribulation. So if during the Tribulation they say, Christ is here or there, don't believe them. The message Christ delivered in Matt 24-25 is, Be Prepared for the Tribulation you are going to go through. The question remains, how do we prepare Spiritually, Physically, Socially, Politically, Psychologically?

But since you think you will be taken out before that, what is your Biblical basis for that belief? Are there Scriptures you can point to that are not directly related or a repetition of what Christ describes in Matt 24?

What is the basis of your belief?

comments on free will by Alex.Jesus said whosoever sins is the servant of sin, the word servant implies bondage only Christ can make us free whom the son sets free is free indeed.Even Paul had no free will he said when i wd do good evil is present with me and the evil i wd not do is what i do. Oh wretched man that i am.With my mind i serve the law of God but with my flesh the law of sin.Paul was tied up in a place where 2 ways meet just like the donkey and her colt was tied up in a place where 2 ways meet ( the flesh and the spirit ) the wheat and the tares thus a warfare in our minds. But there is no condemnation to them in christ jesus. The law cd not set man free David comes to mind our carnal minds cannot be set free from sin till this corruption puts on incorruption AND THIS MORTAL PUTS ON IMMORTALITY WHEN WE ARE CHANGED when the kingdom comes etc.The kingdom will come via the donkey and her colt which is the woman and her offspring her child being the H.G. as that which is born of the spirit is SPIRIT thats our colt th H.G. our offspring which is born of the spirit th Word when ya see the world in travail and birth pains rejoice greatly thats how the kingdom will come via the woman and her child unless ya receive the kingdom as a lil child etc. Thats y jesus said my yoke is easy and my burden is light spritually speaking we are the donkey thats y they put their clothes on the donkey and her colt we be the donkey. The kingdom came with the donkey and her colt Jesus was her rider.No man can ride this donkey but JESUS SIMPLY B/C SHE IS THE CHURCH.GBU

Please pray for our family that my husband will forget about his mistress and she will disappear from our life forever one way or another. Amen.

What I'm looking for is well known but, I want to be sure, The solders prayer is it Psalms 144:1? in the KJV in the HOLY BIBLE?

I request prayer for the leading of the Lord concerning our current attendance at a Church that we have been attending since 2004. The Church is a long way from where we currently live, and it would be of benefit it we could find a godly assembly much closer to home at least in the short term. Also, I am requesting prayer for the leading of the Lord concerning me and my family in particular as it pertains to my son and daughter and the thing we need to do for their development as young adults, but do not have the resources to do the things we wish to do to help them. We need the wisdom, knowledge, and the blessings of God on this matter as well. Thank you, in advance for your prayers. God bless.

Yes, I do recall Paul's letter. It was written to several churches in Asia Minor, in the region of Galatia, written because the false teachers came in and attacked Paul's ministry and message. The Judaizers professed to be believers in Jesus as Messiah, but their doctrinal approach was that the Gentiles are not in a position of Sons of the Covenant to receive the promises of God until they became Jews and they follow the Law. Paul corrected that.

You ask if the Sermon on the Mount only applies to Jews? It was specifically given to Jesus' disciples. There were multitudes that gathered and were listening in; But Jesus specifically was giving this sermon to His disciples only. Now, are there things in Matthew Chapters 5-7 (Sermon on the Mount) that we Gentiles can benefit from? I would say yes. And if you recall in one of my previous responses, I already said that. But there are also things written specifically to the Jews that the church today tries to apply to believers that do not apply to the church. There are many teachings found in Matthew that are not found in the other Gospels. That's because Matthew's Gospel specifically pertains to the Jews.

Baptism? The Jews were baptizing long before the church came into existence. Was the O.T. for the Jews only? Originally yes, it was given to the Jews and only the Jews. We have it in our bibles today so that we can study History and Prophecy. It is the history of God working through and in His people, the children of Israel, and prophecy about the coming Messiah.

You keep bringing up that Christ is coming after the Great Tribulation. Is there a reason? I already agreed to that. Concerning the rapture, we will just have to remain in disagreement with each other on the timing. I can layout every reason why I believe in Pre-Trib, but what good would that do? There are at least three views, and no matter what view a person takes, they have scripture to back up their view, and then it becomes "I'm right, and you're wrong!"

Tim Moriaty, you're right. Matt 24:37-38 are stating what conditions will be like prior to the Coming of Christ. However, it is tightly woven into Matt 24:29. Chapters 24-25 are a Warning. In that Warning, Christ happens to mention when we can expect His return, which is Immediately After the Great Tribulation.

Paul reiterates what Jesus said in 2 These 2:1-4, "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness-the son of destruction-is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

"Our being gathered together to Him" is a direct reference to the Rapture. When does he say that will be? After the Antichrist exalts himself above God. In Daniel we see the AntiChrist sits in the Holy of Holies and exalts himself above God, in the middle of the Tribulation. Hence, the Rapture will not take place until after that. But to be perfectly clear, Christ adds in Matt 24:29 that it will not only be after the AntiChrist desecrates the Temple, but Immediately After the Great Tribulation, which is the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation.

It goes like this:

1. AntiChrist ascends to Power

2. AntiChrist Descartes the Temple

3. The Great Tribulation

4. Defeat of Israel (Daniel)

5. The Coming of Christ and Rapture

There isn't any other place in the entire Bible that makes the time of Christ's Return so clear. We may not really know how all these troubles are spread throughout history, but we can be certain of one unequivocal thing. Christ won't Return and the Rapture won't take place, until Immediately After the Great Tribulation.

We need to know who is god you need to saved in feel with the holy ghost.

That we need to pray more everyday in we need to praise him more in we need to thank him everyday we must be born again .

From the cross Jesus said, " forgive them they don't know what they are doing." Where would we be now if He had not said that? Stephen said," lay not this sin to their charge." Did this act of forgiveness have any impact on Saul's (Paul) life? Where would we be now missing 13 books of the New Testament? God has already forgiven humanity, we need to forgive each other. If we don't forgive we put ourselves in bondage.

Chris, I'm not sure I'm getting my point across. I don't mean the entire Genesis account is allegorical, but that there is an element of allegory, metaphor and symbolism in it. Many of the passages we read in Scripture are like that. It doesn't devalue or make it less credible. However, with what we now know about history and science, it is imperative for Christians to reexamine the Creation story. The reliability of science on this is not questionable.

Example: Heb 3-4 clearly state we are still in the 7th Day Rest of God. If that is the case. God has not resumed His creative activity for 6,000 years. Consequently, the 7th Day is 6,000 yrs long. That means the 'Day' of Day 7, is not a 24 hour day.

We also know from history that cultures and languages developed much longer ago than 6,000 years, given the earliest writings, such as Gilgamesh and Sanskrit. If there are writings that old, the cultures and languages they came from must be older.

Science tells us, with a high degree of certainty, that the universe is over 13 Billion years in the making. And the earth is approximately 5 Billion years old.

In light of things like that, and what Genesis itself says, I conclude Day 1 was longer than 24 hrs. The same holds true for Day 2 and the rest. Adam and Eve were created on the 6th Day, but in that time, Adam named all the animals, etc. If we accept that God works within the framework of reality, we have to accept that when Genesis says God made trees grow from the ground, it took more than a couple of minutes for it to happen.

So, the story is valid because it conveys a message. But that message is delivered in a package that's not entirely literal. The issue of interpretation comes up because we insist on fitting a square literal peg, in the round hole of reality. It just doesn't fit. But your fears are obvious when you say you don't want God to blame you for accepting that not all of Genesis is hyper-literal. I don't blame you. I was taught the same.

why did judas betray jesus I know what he did but why did he do it

To everyone who responded to my initial question; Between some of your responses, coupled with an email dialog I had with a knowledgeable friend, here is my final thought including my friends previous email (this forum hit the character limit so I could only paste so much of his:

HI Jeff,

Based on your response coupled with all the other research I have done I also conclude that is it SOMEWHAT both, but with a primary and secondary interpretation. I think when a verse is confusing it is best to "keep it simple" and keep it in "context". I am thinking that when one takes v38 completely in context (especially pertaining to v37 which is telling the people at the time about the day Jesus the "Son of Man" is returning - as it relates to all the things above v 4-35) that the primary conclusion is that it is not specifically(primarily) talking about the Rapture. As we know, a lot of the bible is written to specific people at a specific time, but that also the "principal/concept" can have applications for others.

.long story to say: based on scriptural face value, it is not addressing the Rapture, but the concept of being "prepared" can apply to anyone in the church age, especially for those at the time of the anticipated Rapture.

Oh and if we take it on scriptural face value, then even though we don't understand it, we have to believe that the people affected will somehow be living life as "normal", where "normal" could be a way of saying they wont care enough to be ready.

Thanks again,

Tim

Hi Tim

Very good question. This is a question I struggled with for a very long time.

I believe that the context of Matt 24/25 is the tribulation AND the second coming. That all the events of Matt 24 are related to the time of the 7 year tribulation leading up to the second coming of Christ at the end of the 7 years. Matt 25 and the Sheep and Goat judgment is also the second coming when "the son of man comes in his glory"......

I have an urgent personal request!! Please pray

M Newsom,

Matthew Chapter 24 is dealing with a future event known as the Tribulation Period. This will be a 7 year period. It is broken up into three sections: Verses 4-14 deal with the first 3-1/2 years, known as "The pains of birth." Verse 15 is known as "The pivotal point" where the antichrist steps in and takes over the temple. And then Verses 16-28 deal with the last 3-1/2 years of the 7 year tribulation period. The last 3-1/2 years is known as the "Great Tribulation," a time when God's wrath will be poured out on a wicked and unbelieving earth.

And then from Verse 29 to Verse 31, we have the promise of Christ's coming. At His second coming, He is going to gather together, His elect, that would be the Jews, from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, north, south, east, and west. That's why Romans 11:26 tells us that when Christ returns, all Israel will be saved. When Christ comes at His second coming, those Jews on the earth will be saved, approximately one-third of them that began the tribulation period.