All Discussion PAGE 2957

Everything in Scripture, from Genesis 1-3:15 to Revelation 22 is about Christ. Everything points to Christ. God said in Isaiah 46:10 that His Purpose would stand. And in 14:24, "The LORD of Hosts has sworn: "As I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand."

If Christ was not the purpose of creation and all things were not created for His incarnation, death and resurrection, as stated in Col 1:16, Rom 11:36 and Heb 10:5, what was the purpose of creation? The entire Bible is dedicated to Christ and 2Tim 1:9 tells us it was "by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time eternal."

I would argue that if the Plan of Salvation was drawn up before the Fall, in fact, before time/space, then creation had to have been for and about Christ. Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, to vanquish death, to redeem His creation and to establish eternal perfection.

So, if God knew man would fail, before He even created man, why did He create man and why send Christ to redeem him? Why not just create people that would not sin? After all, isn't that what we are promised in Heaven? Isn't the promise, abundant life for all eternity, where neither sin nor moth corrupt? Why did God subject all of creation to all this trouble ( Rom 8) just to get to perfection and a sinless eternity?

The argument is, man has free will and s/he can't have free will unless they have the ability or possibility to rebel, disobey, sin. But if that is the case, will we have free will in Heaven? And if we do, will anyone rebel? And if we have free will, why do we pray, Your Will Be Done? Why would God create a being with free will, then ask him to relinquish it? Why not create a being like those that will exist in eternity?

The fact is all creation was subjected to suffering, because it was necessary ( Rom 8). Just as necessary will be the release of Satan after his 1,000 incarceration ( Rev 20:7). Why? All things are for Christ ( Col 1:16).

this verse is the precept for colosians 2 verse 16 shalom

the precept of this verse can be found at Ezekiel chapter 45 verse 16 and 17 paul was referring to atonement and how Christ body superceeds animal sacrifice shalom

So Chris, with respect to your questions, listed below, I offer what follows.

A. Was Christ in God's initial Plan of creation? Titus 1:2, 2 Tim 1:9, Rom 8:17f, Eph 1:4, 3:10-11, Isa 44-48

B. Did God create man so Christ could come to save him from sin's penalty? Heb 10:5, Gal 3:16, Rom 11:36

C. Why create man? Did God of necessity have to create man? Heb 2, Gal 3:16

D. Does God support evil to accomplish His Plan? Rom 9:22-24

E. And what about Satan? Did God put him in the Garden to tempt man? Genesis 2, Job 1:12, Matt 4:1, Lk 4:2

To A: I don't think anyone can argue that Christ was not in the initial Plan of creation, given Jesus created all things. Titus 1:2 and 2 Tim 1:9 are unequivocal. The Plan of Redemption was drawn up before anything was created. We can legitimately conclude from that, that the coming of Christ in a human body ( Heb 10:5), was intentional. Redemption was not offered in reaction to the Fall. Jesus prayed to the Father to, "glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed". 1 John 5:20, John 1:18.

If all things were created for the sake of Jesus ( Col 1:16), doesn't it seem obvious that Jesus was part of the Plan of Creation? There is no indication in Scripture that Jesus was an afterthought? In these verses, we are told that Christ's incarnation was in the original blueprints, before mankind was created. Acts 2:23 Eph 1:4.

What did Jesus mean when He stated in John 8:58, "Before Abraham existed, I Am"? Keep in mind that it is Jesus speaking. Was He simply saying He is God? Or was He saying He as Savior existed before creation? That is, Christ existed. Not Jehovah existed. Christ existed and He is God. John 1 attests to that. In John 17:24 Jesus says God loved Him before creation. Loved who? God loved God? No. God loved Jesus, the Savior.

Rev 13:8, 17:8 also reveal that prior to the Fall, the names of the saved were written in the Book of Life. What's up with that? Jesus came before the Fall.

the great multitude are the explained in Isaiah 11 :11...shalom

Please pray for my daughter k. to be saved. please pray evil to stay away from her. i miss her and love her so much!!! she needs god! i'm tired of having a broken heart.

thank you!

Wondering if any one payed attention to MATTHEW 7:26?

Mothers Day today. First time I've looked at these prayer requests. My daughter on my mind, I was thinking of her and scrolling through these requests and then...I saw her name..Karissa.

Your request is what I pray for her everyday. Her Salvation. Also many other things I pray for her. I will pray for you too. I'll also pray for your Mom. I just hope you both either are, or get in a Bible believing Baptist Church. Salvation is free to those who ask God to forgive them and save the their souls. If you want to live for Him and serve Him, it won't be hard to do. Just give your life to Him. I was a depressed person too, but God changed my sad life. I truly didn't understand why I was living except for being a Mom to my only child, my daughter Karissa. I don't ever see or talk to her. She wants nothing to do with me because I Live for God. She is almost 21 and she broke my heart 6 years ago. I'm so glad you have your Mom. She is so blessed. If you are not in a Bible believing Church, start by going, and be faithful in attendance. You will get past your depression if you have God in your life. Yes, you will get sad sometimes, but you won't have depression like you do. Life is so good with God in it. I'll pray for you Karissa. Dont you give up!

Chris, on Page 1 & 2. Thank you for your response and for continuing the conversation. I like controversy and ambiguity in a discussion, because it allows you to explore further and examine yourself and the substance of your beliefs.

That said, you have correctly outlined my points in page 1. They are, as you summarized:

1. All things have been created for Christ

2. The Future does not exist

3. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose

4. We are not the object of creation, Christ is

5. Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation

6. God created to eradicate corruption

In Page 2 you ask and I cite some Scriptures:

A. Was Christ in God's initial Plan of creation? Titus 1:2, 2 Tim 1:9, Rom 8:17f, Eph 1:4, 3:10-11, Isa 44-48

B. Did God create man so Christ could come to save him from sin's penalty? Heb 10:5, Gal 3:16, Rom 11:36

C. Why create man? Did God of necessity have to create man? Heb 2, Gal 3:16

D. Does God support evil to accomplish His Plan? Rom 9:22-24

E. And what about Satan? Did God put him in the Garden to tempt man? Genesis 2, Job 1:12, Matt 4:1, Lk 4:2

In Ephesians 3:10-11 Paul opens a window so we can get a glimpse of why God created mankind. It was to make the Wisdom of God known to "the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms". That is a lot to absorb. And how was that Purpose accomplished? Through Christ. In 1Cor 4:9, 15:50f, 1Pet 1:12 we see that our human existence is only part of what comprises the Mystery of God's Purpose, which includes more than just us. Nevertheless, everything hinges on humanity. So, for the Purpose of God concerning all of creation, Christ came into the world. There is a war raging in the spiritual realm, we know nothing about.

I'll try to address your questions A-E in the next post. They are complex and not easy to answer. But I will try. What I want everyone to keep in mind is, as Rom 11:36 says, all things were created 'from him and through him and for him are all things'.

What nation is referred to as "The land beyond Ethiopia" in Isaiah Chapter 18?

This is the barley harvest after the first fruits are sealed the faithful church in Revelation 3:10 and the church that is watching and praying they are worthy to escape these things in Luke 21:36 it is the rapture but not like you have been taught it's not the trumpet sounding and the dead in Christ rising in 2 thess that happens at wheat harvest which is at the last trumpet the 7th trumpet in Revelation which the barley wheat and first fruits will also be apart of the grape harvest comes later with those who didn't take the mark are raised to life again to rule and reign with us a 1000 years there are 3 harvests after the first fruits 144000 are sealed so it's the rapture of the faithful church that is watching and worthy to escape the 7 trumpets it's the barley harvest

Ric - I am no fan of the Pope or the Vatican. However it was not Rome that killed the apostles, the prophets or Jesus.

King James Bible book of John 5:16 - And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

John 5:18 - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.



John 7:1 - After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

Paul in 1 Thessalonians 2:14, 16 - For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, EVEN AS THEY HAVE OF THE JEWS: WHO BOTH KILLED THE LORD JESUS, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and THEY PLEASE NOT GOD, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: FOR THE WRATH IS COME UPON THEM TO THE UTTERMOST.

Revelation 11:8 - And their (2 witnesses) dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (Jesus, my LORD, was crucified in Jerusalem, which is spiritually called Sodom)

Jesus in John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 23:12 - And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul.

Jesus speaks in Matthew 23:15 - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees (ALL Pharisees are Jews, not all Jews are Pharisees) , hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Rabbis say Jesus was antisemitic)

2 Thessalonians 2:7, I'm thinking upon the pre-tribulation vs post Tribulation, so I see: v7 who now lets will let, (Father) until he be taken out of the way, (Antichrist).

The God the Father let's the evil one work iniquity, until the son of perdition will be revealed and he will be taken out of the way.

Matthew 24:31 and he shall send his Angels with a great sound of a Trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds.

I see: the last Trump of God , the 7th Trump is the post Tribulation rapture.

I can understand that we have been taught the pre-tribulation rapture is what most believe, but does anyone take the time to search this out. I see: God's rath is poured out at the battle of Armageddon and before that God sends the angels at the last Trump to gather us home. Could this be ?

Ken You write "if repent means to turn from sin then God is a sinner because he repented so many times"

Do you dare to compare yourself with a sinless God by claiming repent means to the same thing for both of us?

Sinful man vs a sinless God? Have you never known words to have more than one meaning?

So in Revelation 2 when the Lord told the Believing church to repent, what were they repenting of?

Their unbelief? A change of mind.

Revelation Chapter 2

1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

except thou repent.

except thou repent.

except thou repent.

except thou repent.

telling the BELIEVING CHURCH to REPENT OF WHAT?

UNBELIEF?

Hi Chris,

I think the interpretation of scripture I'm reading from you can be described as throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

>If I seek to obey any of God's Laws, including the Sabbath, then I am judged by the Law & voluntarily exempt myself from salvation by Grace & not the Law.

The way I interpret your comment it that it says you will lose your salvation by grace if you seek to obey any of God's laws. That's a pretty serious claim which Jesus himself said is false. Have you prayed about this and asked God to confirm if this is actually true before spreading this around to other Christians? What if the people you tell will result in them not seeking to obey God's law anymore and following the world instead, would you consider that a good thing or bad thing? Are Christians really supposed to tell others that if they obey God, that they risk going to hell? To me it's clear that's not what the Bible says. Matthew 5:48 is Jesus says to try and strive to be perfect- and it sounds like you might disagree with that verse. Jesus fulfilled the law, died on the cross for or sins, and we're in grace if we follow Jesus, but he didn't say to stop trying to obey, but the opposite. Philippians 2:12 - with fear and trembling to pursue Jesus. This is an active effort, not a passive status.

So, I'll get back to the heart of the matter- which is the throwing out the baby with the bathwater. In this analogy, the baby is God's law and trying to be obedient to God, and the bathwater is legalism- trying to 'earn' someone's way to heaven. Romans 6 says not to throw out the baby, James 2 the same. Just because Jesus fulfilled the law doesn't mean it's null and void. This point was already explained in the scripture and I don't see any other way to interpret it. To say that some scripture doesn't apply because its to Jews isn't a valid point as the other verses cited were also written to Jews and specific groups too. The Bible is for all.

May God bless you...

Revelation 13:1-8 ...'And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.'

1. IT RISES OUT OF THE SEA - Sea in prophecy represents an area of different people, nations and tongues ( Rev. 17:15). The Roman Catholic Church rose to power amongst the many different nations, people and tongues of Europe. It also has the largest support of people around the world than any other church or religion.

2. NAME OF BLASPHEMY ON THE HEADS - The Roman Catholic Church make blasphemous claims and speak great swelling words which are against God.

3. IT RECEIVES A DEADLY WOUND, WHICH WOULD BE HEALED - The Papal Church of Rome received a deadly wound in 1798 when the French army marched into Rome, taking the pope captive and ending the rule of the Papacy. Then in 1929, the Vatican received state power again which was signed into law by Mussolini.

4. IT MAKES WAR WITH THE SAINTS OF GOD - The Roman Catholic Church killed tens of millions of Christians during it's reign.

What are other than the children of God? When will we see our faults as failures?

Research this info and you will see that the anti christ system is hiding in plain site.

Daniel 7:8,21,25 .....'I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.'

1. IT'S A LITTLE HORN - This is a little kingdom which matches the Vatican State as being the smallest kingdom in the world.

2. IT COMES UP OUT OF THE BEAST - The beast is Rome, and the Roman Catholic Church came to power from the Roman Empire.

3. IT RISES AMONG THE TEN HORNS - The Roman Catholic Church arose amongst the ten nations of Europe.

4. IT RISES TO POWER AFTER THE OTHER TEN HORNS - Rome fell in AD476 and split into the ten kingdoms of Europe. Then the Roman Catholic Church came to power in AD538.

5. UPROOTS THREE OF THE OTHER TEN HORNS - The Roman Catholic Church had three of the original kingdoms of Europe destroyed. The Vandals, Ostrogoths and the Heruli.

6. IT HAS EYES AND MOUTH OF A MAN - So this kingdom has a visible leader at the helm just like the pope.

7. IT PERSECUTES THE SAINTS OF GOD - The Roman Catholic Church killed tens of millions of Christians during it's reign in the "dark ages".

8. IT'S DIVERSE FROM THE OTHER HORNS - The other kingdoms were purely political kingdoms, but this one is "different". The Papal Church of Rome is a political AND religious kingdom

9. IT WILL SPEAK AGAINST GOD - The Roman Catholic Church speaks great boastful words which are against God.

pray that my unemployment goes thourgh when I file on Tuesday ok

Hi Bob this is Ken I agree with you on the first two Commandments these are the Commandments of Christ The Ten Commandments were nailed to the cross as you are well aware of by the scriptures Jesus himself said not to put new wine into old wineskins he was referring to the age of Grace the church age in which we are living right now and if repent means to turn from sin then God is a sinner because he repented so many times I can't even count for everyone who wants to know that the Commandments of Christ are 1st John 4:21 and this is the Commandment we have from him that we he who loveth God loves his brother. 1st John 5

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, OUR FAITH......

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that BELIEVES that Jesus is the Son of God?

Revelation 2:11 he that has an ear let him hear what the spirit says to the church is he that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. We learn in 1st John 5 that the Overcomer is the one who puts their faith in Jesus Christ or believes is finished work what is his finished work? John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them this is the work of God that you believe on him who he sent! And when he was talking to the church. And when he told the church in Revelation to repent he wanted them to come back to his first work ,which was to believe on Christ and go forth with that teaching! what they were doing as we have in this day and age and which you have presented is another gospel in which you mingle works with our faith Works cannot come until we have faith.

I agree with you

Those who have aspirations have thousands of things, and those who have no ambitions only feel that it is difficult

These verses should warn us about who we have in our lives,in our hyper social society people feel the need to be always around people and they shun solitude or standing alone.The bible teaches the opposite.

Those are lovely truthful comments you have given, Adebayo. If only Christ's Church do as you do, by not only supporting the work of the ministry, but also looking out for those in need. Then the Gospel becomes more meaningful when the one being helped sees the Love of Christ in action, whether through monetary gift or other help. God bless you in your ministry to the saints: He sees your love in action.

Adam, re: Jn 14:15. Is Jesus speaking here of the Law that was given to the Jews, or about His commandments? Is there a difference? Jesus came as the fulfilment of God's Laws, i.e. He is God's Law, He came to present the WHOLE Law ( Mt 5:17 ff), He became the Law to everyone who believes ( Rom 10:4). So our obedience is not to the Jewish Law which only brought death ( 2 Cor 3:6-17), but to Christ's Law (= Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ( Rom 8:1-4). I've never intimated that the Law given to the Jews were defective or defunct, but they were no longer binding on those "in Christ", as Christ's new Law = His commandments, go far higher in meaning & application than the old could ever do, & that too, given by God's Grace to us & His Power to us to obey them. So then, does this "New Law" through Jesus make mockery of God's original Law? Never. Jesus came to be its fulfilment in totality (i.e. Ten Commandments plus all the sacrificial & ceremonial Laws), so our obedience to Divine Laws are to be through His Spirit's ministration, as He writes them in our minds & hearts (again I use the 2 Cor 3:6-17 reference).

I'm sorry Adam, I don't follow your intimation in your succeeding remarks. If you could direct me to my particular quote, since I can't find any of my comments on grace & works in this thread (unless you are referring to my reference in Rom 11:5,6, which is not connected with works & grace in our usual application, but the working of God's Grace that nullifies man's (Jews) strict obedience to the Law to gain merit with God). However, if I've misunderstood your comments in this regard, please refresh me.

Please pray for my niece, Darianne, her husband passed away this week. She is also pregnant with their first child. Thank you, I appreciate it!

I love the way the LORD gives us all these words of assurances of his Love and Protection. He lets us know we have only to trust in his presence for its always there. So all we need to do is rejoice in it.

Ric. Interesting read on the Pope. There is a logic to your argument that's well developed. I wonder if the AntiChrist is a name used for both a Political Leader that will take over Europe and the Middle East and a Religious Leader at that time? There are some things John says in Revelation that lead us to believe that Rome is at the heart of the Kingdom the AntiChrist will set up, because of the reference to 7 hills on which Rome was initially built.

Daniel, as well as Revelation give us a glimpse into the nature and character of the AntiChrist. And here is my question. A new religion surfaced in the 600's that quickly took over the world. Through their followers, they made several attempts to establish a caliphate that embraced the world. Daniel speaks of a new religion that will be dominant when the AntiChrist enters the political and religious scene. We have seen how their attempts to establish a kingdom has been limited. But today, we see its influence increasing, particularly in Europe. An interesting fact is that the Messiah or Mehdi of this religion parallels the description Daniel and John give of the AntiChrist.

There are two contending religious and political ideologies in the Middle East and Europe, that have been and will be central to all political, religious and military actions.

1. Given the political and religious climate today, what role do you perceive this new religion will play to achieve peace in the Middle East?

2. In the rise of the AntiChrist?

3. In the persecution of Christians and Jews?

4. In the coming destruction of Israel?

5. Daniel refers to the armies that will rise against Israel as Persia and John as Babylon. What is the correlation?

6. What role will this religion play for acceptance of the AntiChrist?

7. Will this religion accept a peace treaty, other than from their own?

8. How will this leader establish ties to the Roman Church?

Dan 7-12, Joel, Zechariah, Matthew 24, 2 Thessalonians 2, Revelation

In the Beginning, God Created the Heavens and the Earth. In it, He placed a Garden. In it, He also placed Adam and Eve. And God declared everything He created, Perfect.

1. Why didn't the Garden cover all of the earth?

2. What is the meaning or definition of a Perfect Garden?

3. How do weeds grow in a Perfect Garden?

4. How Perfect were the people God created and placed in the Garden?

5. What are the flaws of Perfection?

6. If Adam and Eve were Perfect, how was it possible for them to disobey God?

7. Where did God go wrong with creation?

Hello fellow people send this to all the people who could need a change of heart. The world is complex so much things so much.... I understand what you mean when you say i don't understand this or that and you are not getting the explanation you need but listen wait and TRUST the lord for he will show you and answers you question, you may be asking how do i know God is real well i have faith and i am not sure if its real but you must trust to have a brighter day.