All Discussion PAGE 2962

Chris, I like these conversations because they make us think and search the Scriptures. Thanks for your comments. Your perspective is what the modern church has taught for the last few Centuries.

You say, "we were created [to] enjoy a perfect relationship with the Godhead & enjoying a perfect world to live in." And of course, that is what we are taught. That is our doctrine. But there is a greater truth we miss.

First of all, All things were created FOR Christ Col 1:16. What does that little tiny word mean? Did God create us for Us or FOR Christ? What does it mean that we were created for God's Pleasure? Is it so Christ could have someone to play with? Is it so Christ could have someone to help him with creation? Is it for the enjoyment of Christ? I bought a car for my son. I did that so he could go to school, work and out with his friends. Is that what FOR means here? What the Bible tells us is that all things were created FOR Christ to enter creation to accomplish God's Plan. In Heb 10:5 and Ps 40, we are told we were created so Christ could have a body in the image of God. In Titus 1:2, Paul says God's Plan from before creation, from before time even began, was a Plan of Redemption in Christ. All things are done FOR Christ to overcome corruption, evil, death, pain, suffering.

Secondly, Christ didn't enter the world in response to what Adam and Eve did. In the OT we read over and over, "I raised him up for my Purpose." Daniel says things to come are written in the Book of Truth. Revelation calls it the Book of Life. In Isaiah 44-48 God says He knows what is going to happen because He creates it then and there. The idea that God knows the future out of intuition, perception, vision or all-knowingness, because He is not restricted by time/space, is not Biblical. The Future does not exist. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose.

Thirdly, we are not the object of creation. Christ is. If we were, God failed. Think about that. See Dan 9:24, Rom 8.

comment by Alex about y Jesus was born. It was that he might be multiplied in our hearts via a seed resulting from his death, when a seed dies it multiplies ( our new heart and new spirit ) is th result of his death,smite the shephard and the sheep will be scattered then i will turn my hand to the little ones a baby Christ which is the H.G. AS THAT WHICH IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT IS SPIRIT OUR NEW INNERMAN has to be born in us. That was the great Promise in the beginning I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven speaking of abrahams' heavenly seed Christ Jesus. Thats y th woman ( humanity ) is giving birth simply b/c of his death, the only way we can see him is by his death, he said unless a seed dies it abides alone ( just 1 christ ) but if it dies it will bring forth much fruit (many Christ as the stars of heaven ) That was the great Promise,The fruit is his offspring the H.G. an Isrsel of God ,the multiplication of very God in humanity via his seed sown in us sinners. Being bornagain of an incorruptible seed even by the Word of God but there wd have been no seed if he had not died,when a seed dies it multiplies that all the world might get a seed an incorruptible seed that is gonna destroy our old adamic nature thus destroying satans head mans adamic nature that is in rank with satans head.outta of the hearts of man proceeds all manner of evil, Thats y he refers to the H.G as the PROMISE,THE H.G is the multiplication of Christ that results from his seed th word th new covenant in our hearts thus a spritual pregnancy resulting in a Child, she brought forth a man child that is gonna rule all nations. The Child is the h.g. that is gonna rule all nations as Jesus said the spirit of truth is gona reprove the world of sin and righteous and judgement which answers to the kingdom of GOD coming from with in US. The reason issac was born was that abraham might be multiplied,The reason Jesus was born was that God might be multiplied in US sinners remember the PROMISE GB

THANK YOU. But keep in mind that I am not an expert on Stars and their use in the Bible. However, the same applies to Trees, Grass, Water and many other things.

One of my favorite psalms, very comforting and assuring. Praise the Lord.

This same outpouring of the HolyGhost is for us day. We can be filled with HolyGhost by the evidence of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.

WattRudy: it's a blessing to find someone else who studies the small things. I was fascinated with:

Proverbs 6:6-8 And. Proverbs 30:24-27

It kinda shows you that nothing escapes God's interest in His creation.

Muhammad is in the Bible! This verse is talking about him, along with many, many, many other false prophets!

Jesse, I see your point. However, when I say we know the time, given that Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 4 that that day will not creep up on us like a thief, I mean that in Matthew 24:29, Jesus specifically says that He will return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days.

He further tells us that the day of His return will not be until after the Abomination (AntiChrist) sits in the Temple in Jerusalem and declares himself above God. See Daniel 12. That abominable act doesn't happen until 3 years after the 7 years Tribulation period begins. Consequently, if Christ won't come until AFTER the Abomination exalts himself above God in the Temple, then Christ won't come at the start of the 7 years Tribulation.

In addition, Christ adds to that that after the AntiChrist exalts himself in the Temple Holy of Holies, there will be what is known as the last 3 years of the 7 years Tribulation. He calls that the Great Tribulation. Throughout the discourse, Christ warns us not to be fooled when people tell us that Christ is here or there.

Then Jesus goes on to tell us that after that Great Tribulation, THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL HE APPEAR.

There is no other place in the entire Bible where we are told when Christ will return, except this. And it is Jesus Himself telling us. This is borne out by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2, which is almost a repetition of Matthew 24.

Unfortunately, the 100 years old teaching of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is deceptive. I too used to think that was the way it was, because that's what I was taught. But a careful study of Scripture shows the opposite. The arguments for it fail the test of logic, reality and more significantly, Scripture. I am not criticizing. I am just pointing it out. Any study of the Rapture, as presented in 1 Thes 4, should begin with Matthew 24:29. There is only ONE Second Coming and it won't be in stages. That is why Christ immediately transitions to the Virgins of Matthew 25. PREPARE!

How did o the children of Noph and Tahapanes break the crown of thy head?

comments on Carlos's posts about Noah's flood. Carlos th flood was just an allegory of another flood coming in the spirutal realm.Isaiah says that knowledge shall cover the earth as the waters cover the seas. A spritual flood of his spirit is gonna cover the earth meaning mankind. Everything in the O.T. was just simbolic of something coming in the N.T. TH FUTURE under a new covenant.Jesus said outta of their bellies shall flow Rivers of living water but john said this water is just simbolic of his spirit ( the H.G ETC. )THE H.G was not yet given simple b/c jesus was not yet glorified this Glorification is the flood coming on all humanity. As Joel said he wd pour out his spirit on all flesh ( THE FLOOD ) God so loved the world etc.And the latter rain doctrine is also of a rain/flood coming that will flood the world,much greater then the former rain th early Church doctrine /flood. Even Paul said when that which is perfect is come that which is done in PART will be done away with. Early church doctrine was all in parts as paul said, we know in part etc. In rev. it says he will lead us to fountains of living water, water without limit a deludge a flood etc Whosoever will let him come and drink of the waters of life freely this is the 2 nd flood that is gonna destroy our carnal minds his enemy ( satan ) as his house is our body but now satans defiles this house. Outta of the hearts of man proceeds all manner of evil thus we need a new heart and a new spirit which will come via his Word ( His SPIRIT that will flood this earth) that good seed etc the seed of the kingdom etc John saw the kingdom coming via a River, a Flood ( that River of life ) Also Daniel saw the kingdom coming via a River of life . That spritual Flood that is coming in th last day.gbu

How does one reconcile Zechariah 1:15 with the sovereignty of God over all things?

Who told you that?

Please pray for health, mercy, and spiritual protection for this world. I ask for your prayers in keeping my marriage/restoring love and honesty. Protect our children and cover our families.

What we don't see enough of is "Thy Kingdom Come". The most sure future expectation(hope),is the rule

of God on Earth,for one thousand years.It is written and will be done,as it is God's will.The great lie of

Satan is based on this truth,that is,namely,utopia,or,the human desire to again enter Eden.Admission to

the Kingdom is by the grace of God only.The eternal realm begins after final human failure in the Kingdom,

as was human failure in the garden.The Savior,the Lord Jesus, is all the glory permitted,demonstrated and

worthy of our love.A sinful self will no longer be a part of us,hard for us to imagine as we are in this world,

yet,the fullness of forgiveness will be our experience,as it is written.

As I read some posts in this venue, I notice many use the Bible as a Book of Rules through which to control people. Many even use it to subdue church members into a submission that robs them of the liberty we have in Christ. Some leaders even use Scripture to set up little kingdoms where they are the rulers and Popes. Congregants are even told to take everything to their pastors for approval and guidance. There are church congregations that will not allow you to be a member unless you commit to a monthly or annual membership fee.

The Bible is not a Book of Rules. It is the message of God to humanity about what He is doing, why He is doing it and how we can know The Father and The Son in a personal way. It is the Good News about how we can become Sons of God in Christ. It is the way to Freedom from the cement block of evil, sin, death and corruption wrapped around our feet. The Bible is our way to God the Father, not to another prison of restrictive rules and fearful existence.

The Gospel of eternal salvation and abundant life in Christ allows us to step out of the dark dungeon of repressive sinful habits that made our lives miserable, into the brightness of the liberty of knowing Jesus.

Don't let anyone try to pull you back into a dungeon of repressive religious mandates that steal the liberty of Christ from you. That doesn't mean you can sin freely, carouse, and live as if there were no rules. There are rules of social, religious and political behavior. There must be order, decency, decorum, proper behavior. Organization is essential to every life endeavor.

But live in the liberty of Christ. Be human! Live life as a human enjoying salvation in Christ. Don't live life trying to be as impeccable as Angels.

The Bible is about Christ and God's Purpose Driven Creation. It is about how we can know God and the liberty with which He makes us free from oppression, repression, confusion, depression, addiction, sin and takes us to eternal perfection.

Hi Cyril.

Thank you for sharing your burdens.

First of all, I am happy to tell you that God wants to give you salvation! If we repent of/abandon our sins and cry out to him for forgiveness, He is just longing to do that for us.

Secondly, He is also keenly interested in our health and sleep. Just as He wants our soul and spirit to be at rest, so He also desires to give our bodies rest as well!

God bless.

In Ephesians 6:11 it reads: "In whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. God counsel himself. The only other beings present at man's creation were angels. "Hear O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD." Deuteronomy 6:4.

Just to put my two cents in, was Paul addressing a specific problem that specific church was having? What was the issue? Paul himself encourages believers to listen to the teaching of the women running some congregations of the time.

Is there too much being made by some of this particular passage? What is the history of it?

As Christians, there is no male or female when it comes to the things of God. Throughout history God has used women in the church as Pastors, Evangelists, Deacons, Elders, Teachers.

Do we sometimes get all tied up in something we shouldn't even be worrying about? Might it be good to keep in mind that we are living under the freedom, both spiritual and social, that we have in Christ? Did Christ save us so we could be bound to laws, regulations, procedures that limit our ability to proclaim His Gospel?

IMO: Don't let petty, legalistic issues like that bound you up, weigh you down and bundle you up in a confusing mess of do's and don'ts. In Christ there is no male or female. The Gospel can be preached and taught and proclaimed by male, female, donkey or rock. What is important is the proclamation of Christ, not whether your dress is too short, your hair too long, your shoes too bright, your tie is tied wrong, you wear jeans and sandals, you are male, female, child or octogenarian.

Clearly, Paul was addressing pagan customs of the time and people that were steeped in ways of doing things that might not have been beneficial to a group of Christians meeting in homes and other venues. He was establishing order in the congregations. But we are living in the 21st Century and things have, of necessity, changed. And change is OK.

We are called to tell people about Christ, not about rules we must follow if we want to be Christians, that is, Spirit filled followers of Christ.

I, for one, don't really understand 1 Timothy 2:12 in its entirety. And there are other things said we don't fully understand. But "I press on!".

20 and, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

Note: according to the above, Time arrived for both John and JESUS to enter the world, thereby ..., ...., ..., plus 77-79 SALVATION for all mankind is about to reach all mankind..

Shannon, I think that this verse is meant to show that God forbids the making of any graven image that represents any creature in His creation. If it does mean something specific, as you suggest, there could be some reference to Genesis 8:2: "The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained". And this reference mentions that at the time of Noah's drifting on the flooded Earth, God stopped the rain & the waters that came from below the Earth.

So, if there was some type of body of water under the Earth at that time, there may be some who believed in some 'mythical' creatures also in existence there, & which could be represented as idols on Earth. So God forbad the making of any image, whether real or imaginative. All speculation on my part, of course.

Shannon, the moon of course is the "lesser light" in Gen 1:16. In the old days, before astronomy progressed, the moon was probably thought of as emitting its own light. As we know, moonlight is simply the sun's light being reflected. And yes, it is still very much a light source. When I used to visit some poor villages in Pakistan to minister, they had no electricity, no lanterns or kerosene; they depended entirely on moonlight. But its amazing how well our eyes adjust to low or no light, so life goes on without complaint for those people.

Shannon, that verse in Gen 1 can sound tricky unless you see how the pronouns are used. 'Beast' is written in the singular, thus the use of 'his kind', or its species. 'Cattle' is in plural, therefore using 'their kind; and so with 'every creeping thing' is in the singular. There is no reference or even inference that the Trinity is seen in this verse. That is altogether a false interpretation of the Scripture.

Re: your comment on Angels. Well, in Nehemiah 9:6, we read: "Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee." This of course tells us that God created all things & also the "host of Heaven". This "host", or inhabitants, would include the angels, seraphim, cherubim, & other heavenly beings. They may have been created at some point before God's creative Work was completed ( Genesis 2:1 "...all the host of them (were finished))". Satan himself was a created being, a Cherub ( Ezekiel 28:13-16): the King of Tyrus is spoken of in these verses but vv 13 & 15 indicate this was not a mere human but a reference to Satan. It speaks about God creating him & he was perfect until iniquity was found in him & thus banished from God's presence.

So, that should give you a quick explanation to your questions.

b. (following comment). "corruption is not something that happens overnight. It creeps in". And you gave an illustration of rust to metal. I'm from the stock that believe that as soon as sin entered Adam & Eve, they became sinners immediately & not over a period of time. My metaphor would be more of a glass of water to which some blue dye was poured in & the resultant instant complete enveloping change.

Also, your reference: " Romans 8 tells us there were those alive at the time Adam and Eve lived, that did not commit the sin of Adam." Apologies, I couldn't find any reference to this; maybe another Scripture.

c. "Christ was necessary because corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation". I agree that corruption (sin's results) is a consequence of creation, but I don't think it was an inevitable consequence. Creation was made perfect, & so only after the fall of man did sin have its consequence over creation. However, if you meant that God's Plan included Christ's coming because of the inevitable fall of man, then I agree with you.

Thank you Carlos, that was a good read.

Carlos, I found your comments, "My perspective on sin might be a little different" & following, a very interesting read, one of those posts that required much further thought & searching. I think I understand your stand, as declared, & also knowing that in written expression, one's full intent isn't always recognized, as one could do in speech. So, I will raise some of my own thoughts & I apologize if I have misunderstood you.

a. "the Purpose for which God created, was to redeem us and all of creation from corruption". It is true, that the Omniscient God already knew that His Son's coming & Sacrifice was imperative for sinful mankind & thus His Plan from the beginning included Jesus, but I laboured over your point that the creation of mankind was for our redemption. From Scripture, I see that God created all things, including Adam & Eve, & saw that all was to His Pleasure & Satisfaction, & then rested on the seventh day ( Gen 2:2,3). I simply can't see that we were created so that we could be redeemed; rather, we were created so that we & our descendants, could enjoy a perfect relationship with the Godhead & enjoying a perfect world to live in. The fact that Adam/Eve sinned & that nature passed onto us, was what God had already planned for & Jesus was in that Plan. Jesus, God's Word, was in Heaven (indeed, instrumental in the creative work: Col 1:15,16) & had no reason to be ever sent to Earth. The status quo was God's Plan & it was Perfect & as such there would have not been any need for Jesus' Coming, nor of His Millennial Rule, nor of new Heavens & Earth. Of course, from our viewpoint, that is hard to imagine, but now in His Mercy, He sent Him to us sinners, His very Own to redeem us. I can see what you're saying, but just felt that you have understood this aspect of creation differently: i.e. we were not created for redemption but for His Pleasure. (see next comment).

Hitler was not a Christian; not a minister of God.

His deeds were evil. He was a follower of Satan. He murdered over 6 million Jewish men, grandmothers, grandfathers, women, children, babies, so satan could destroy Gods people. Hurt God.

The only reason to remember his name is to warn people now that Hitler will seem like a choir boy compared to what the Antichrist has planned for the world. Repent

Be born again now. Choose Life. Help people you love, be born again too. Time is short.

Mark 11:25-26 And when you stand praying, FORGIVE, if you have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive YOU your trespasses.

BUT if you DO NOT FORGIVE, neither will your Father which is in heaven, FORGIVE your trespasses.

That's why I like that movie the Shack. The guy figured out that God wanted him to forgive his daughters murderer. God says it's about you taking your hands off his neck (so to speak). The guy asks how many and "God" says 7x70, 500.

Forgiveness is remarkably cleansing!!

I have no comments on women preacher/

or teachers. Although everyone agrees that God called Deborah to be a judge. Other women were prophetesses.

I was responding to the gay/ homosexual comment. Pardon me.

To Confused>>

Though much has already been said,

I'm going to make this brief,

There's a Biblical principle that sin is passed from the third and fourth generation, but, BUT, Jesus is our great equalizer! Because if you make Jesus your Lord and Savior, then no matter what your parents or grandparents have done, or even you have done in the past you can be set free, all you have do is say, "Lord, I am a sinner, please forgive me for all my sins, and wash me clean so I can stand clean before You. Be my Savior and my Lord, make me into the person You want me to be, take all of me, I am Yours, in Jesus' precious Name."

Now, start reading your Bible, starting with the Gospel of John, then Romans, (they're in the New Testament) and stay connected to Christian people like this group, and when churches start opening up, find one in your neighborhood and become a part of them, you let them minister to you for a while, then get involved..

I'll be praying for you

"But i suffer not a woman to teach". You have to remember and know that back then women were not taught nor as a whole literate. Women who tried to teach often had no idea to what they were speaking because they were not taught, and that led people astray. Paul would have also known that Deborah was a female prophet who taught the word of God. I believe women can be pastors, but they should not be the sole authority. A female pastor could work with a male pastor or come in for lessons and teaching, but should not be the sole authority in the church unless there is no one else to teach. We are all called to share the word of God. "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection." Since women were not taught Paul was very for the rights of women. Look at it as if you were in school, when a teacher is talking you are to learn and be silent, so that you may hear and understand.

Dear Shannon,

The best way to know what to believe is to go to the Source, the Bible, a good cross reference would do nicely. But as Bob said, is correct, there is 0 references for "Lilith"

Praying God will lead and guide you,

Etta