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When we talk about the nature of God and the "God Head" we are walking on very holy ground and we must recognize that our finite peanut minds cannot sort this out. We must accept by faith what the Bible declares about God Himself and not try to go beyond that.
We know from the Bible that God the Father is Eternal God Himself; that the Lord Jesus Christ is Eternal God Himself; that the Holy Spirit is Eternal God Himself. And we know that there is only ONE God.
We know that when Christ, Eternal God Himself, paid for the sins of all whom He saves, He endured the Wrath of God Himself and actually DIED as God Himself, as their substitute. And God describes his character and attributes throughout the Bible in many many ways. All of which are absolutely true.
How can all this be?
So again, our finite minds cannot sort this out and "explain" God. And when we think we have it is a certainty that we have not. We read what God declares about Himself and must accept it by faith.
And I Chris, find no Biblical support for your understanding of the Salvation of Old Testament Believers.
What you have said is not supported when comparing scripture with scripture throughout the WHOLE Bible. And your understanding does not address the many verses I have quoted regarding this subject and stems, I believe and am sorry to say, from a failure to recognize that that the Bible Alone and in its Entirety is, in fact, the ONE TRUE GODPEL OF SALVATION.
When you say that the Holy Spirit was not active in Salvation during the OT you are in essence saying that God was not active in Salvation.
When you say that the there was some efficacy toward Salvation in the sacrifices of the OT it is like saying that there is some efficacy in water baptism during the Church Age toward Salvation. And that is a Gospel of Grace plus Works which CANNOT save.
Noah was a sinner, just like everyone that God saves during the NT. "But Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD." Genesis 6:8; just like every True Believer throughout the history of the world. And when Noah died physically, his body returned to the dust and he went to be with Christ in Heaven in his soul existence, just like every True Believer throughout the history of the world. He did not go to a place called Hades. Why? Because God had given him a new Resurrected Soul when God saved him, just like every True Believer throughout the history of the world. And the basis for Noah's Salvation was the Atonement of Christ, God Himself, Just like every true believer throughout the history of the world.
So once again, Chris, there is one and only one Salvation. One and only one True Gospel. And that gospel is circumscribed by the Bible ALONE and it's ENTIRETY.
Thanks and bless you for sharing your thoughts. Firstly, none of us could be saved without the work of Christ. In Him we can receive forgiveness if we believed, repent, get baptized, become Born Again. But some of the most important things we are required to do and are conveniently overlooked: we are asked to pick up our cross and follow Christ including all that Jesus detailed in the gospel and scriptures. We are commanded to do things that take an effort on our part.
This is Jesus speaking in the book of Revelations to apostle John about 65 years after his death on the cross, and about 18 years after apostle Pauls death.
Revelation 22:14
"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
I have to believe here; that Jesus is telling us in addition to being born again, that we will need to follow God's Commandments if we want to have the right to the tree of life and enter in through the gates and everlasting life. Is this not Salvation?
Wouldn't you agree that following God's Commandments certainly takes effort on our part to comply?
Many Christians today feel they can receive salvation without following God's Commandments. This mindset completely ignores what Jesus said we need to do in this very important verse above. I believe we need to participate in our salvation, because God requires it in so much scripture.
GBU
Some bits of history and corections about the city of Thessalonika, the place I was born and grew up.
Thessalonica is actualy about 150 km west of Philippi and 550 Km north of Athens (1 mile=1.6 km).
Today is called Thessalonike in grk. Previous to its establishment there were some settlements, all of them called Thermai (plural), but they were not exactly where the city is located today. From antiquity there are lot to see, the Roman arch of triumph, ruins of the Roman Forum, the fortresses that still surround the city, ruins of the Roman Palace. Lately when excavating the city's main street for making a metro, a lot has been found. A portion of the Roman main street that connected Asia with Rome, the famous Egnatia str., and surrounding buildings, statues etc, which will be exhibited some time in the future. Its archeological museum is very rich in exhibits. After the Roman era, during the Byzantine era, the city became even more important, since it was one of the most important harbours in the Eastern Mediterannean sea. The city is full of Byzantine Orthodox churches and many are still functioning today. There is a lot also from the period the city was occupied by Turks, the main one is a huge castle at the coast which is actually the symbol of modern Thessalinike. The population today is about 1.2 million people.
Its name derives from Thessalians and N-i-k-e. N-i-k-e means victory, Thessalians were Greeks living south of Macedonia. Philipp named his daughter, Cassander's wife, after his victory in a battle against the Thessalians. Thessalonike was one of the sisters of Alexander the great, Cassander was one of his generals. After the death of Alexander, Cassander ruled in Macedonia and established the city as his capital, giving it his wife's name. It had never been a Roman colony, it was always inhabited by Greeks. As said Thessalonike's most important part in history was not during the Roman era but later during the Byzantine era.
CJF.
I work with the Word of God.Notice that the table above is proved by the Word of GOD,the Word is GOD.So, see the timetable below:
SIX PERIODS OF BIBLICAL TIMES --------------- DURATION
I - From Adam to the Flood- ( Genesis 5)----------1656 years
II - From the Flood to Abraham-( Genesis 11&12)--427years
III - From Abraham to Exodus-(Gal.3:17)----------430 years
IV -From Exodus to king Saul-(1Reis 6:1-480-84)--396 years Davi-40
V -From Saul to the fall of Jerusalem ---------------508 years Saul-40
VI -From the fall of Jerusalem to Jesus ------------.587 years Salomo-4
Thus, from Adam to the 1stcoming of Jesus ----.4004years
From Jesus to our days (Christian Calendar)------2023years
Total from Adam to our days ----------------------6027years
JESUS-the Greater Light, Genesis 1:16-came in the fourth Day or around 4000 years after GOD has started His works of restitution of all things- Genesis 1 combined with Acts 3:19-21.It still was the FOURTH DAY when JESUS said: MY FATHER WORKS HITHERTO, AND I WORK- John 5:17.
From JESUS (FOURTH DAY) until our days,or until this current time,have already passed more TWO DAYS or 2000 years (one Day with the Lord is as a thousand years), in fact 6 complete Days or six complete millenniums, or around 6.000 years, more precisely 6027 years, according Christian Calendarpointing the year 2023.
So, we have entered in the beginning of the FIRST CENTURY of the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last Day,the Lord's Day, or THE TURN FROM THE SIXTH TO THE SEVENTH DAY, the Millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Truth, the Millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Millennium of Vengeance.
The world of Devil is already Judged and Condemned, and now, in this seventh and last millennium, it will be punished with strong punishments, the CHASTISEMENTS ALREADY STARTED, there will be only and only punishments in this last Day, the Day of the Lord, King of kings and LORD of lords.
Greetings in Christ JESUS
Your message is very interesting,it caught a lot of my attention where you said that"a graveyard of times created".Lord JESUS said the Father has put the time in His own power- Acts 1:7.When Lord said "all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John"-around 1.500 years- this period was to the "graveyeard",so was reset a different period called New Testament,which is also about to the"graveyeard"very soon.But there was before these two periods,a period of time from Adam until Noah around 1.656 years,and from Noah until Moses-Exodus-that lasted around 857 years.Before Adam there was an Eternity in the garden of Eden,all the above commented periods were, one by one, to the "graveyeard",except the current period which is just now to the "graveyeard" too.
Well, and now? Luke 20:35-36 combined with Rev.20:1-4 -a period of 1000 years,after this will finish into the"graveyeard".
GOD's six Days of creation and one Day of rest(total of 7 days) Scriptures teachs that one Day is with the Lord as a 1000 years (2Pet.3:v.8),so MANKIND would go through six GOD Days of 1,000 years each(total of 6,000 years)plus a Millennium of 1,000 years rest (now 7,000 years).
According to the biblical Chronology, starting by Genesis 5:
Adam lived .................................130 yrs and begat Seth
Seth lived ..........105 yrs " begatEnosh;
Enosh lived ....................................90yrs" begatKenan;
Kenanlived....................................70yrs" begatMahalalel;
Mahalalellived ...............................65yrs" begatJared;
Jaredlived ...................................162yrs " begatEnoch;
Enochlived ....................................65yrs" begatMethuselah;
Methuselahlived............................187yrs" begatLamech;
Lamechlived.................................182yrs" begatNoah;
FromNoahs birthuntilthe Flood.....600 yrs.
FromAdam tothe Flood =.............1656 yrs.
God hates sin! We need to learn to "hate sin" as much as God hates it!
Very true..you will not need a Savior when you overcome sin, because you will have have listened to God, applied his commands to your life, and allowed Christ to perform His marvelous work in you, to help you overcome the sins in this life - that you and many Christian's believe is impossible. Nothing is impossible for God! And yes, you will then be ready to enter into the Kingdom and "you will not need a Savior as you say"you will have allowed the Savior to do His miraculous work in you at present!
Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
If we keep sinning because we feel that we can't stop sinning we are not following Jesus/Gods commands, nor embracing His Spirit. We are keeping our worldly sinful lives intact, and not listening to His instructions, to give up this life, and live according to His Commands.
John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
If we are truly born again we will learn to hate sin as much as God. Who do you think wants us to think we can never stop sinning? It's not Jesus/God, because He tells us point blank: To stop sinning!
1 John 3:6 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."
1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."
By saying we will never overcome sin we are saying that the Son of God can't overcome the devil's sin that works in us, and that we will always be a servant to the devil.
We need to read the scripture, and believe, and apply it to our lives now!
GBU
I can't tell you how Dan would answer that question,
but here's mine
It's not a work of our self-efforts in our own strengths or our own understanding, it following the Light of Christ in our hearts, the still small Voice of Conscience that convicts us of our wrong doings & directs us to do what is just, good & holy, Titus 2:11
Micah 6:8 , its the Treasure we have in these earthen vessels, enlightening us in the power of Holy Spirit, picking up the Cross & denying self, & causing us to will & do of His good pleasure, which works were finishes from the foundation of the world, Hebrews 4:3 Acts 15:18 We enter into His works, coming to a place of rest from our own works
Then there some that are persuaded they don't have to do anything, but believe, without becoming a doer of the Word, thats more like being a demon, for they believes, but they do not obey.
Consider all that Scriptures, beginning with Abraham, Gen 18:19 by his obedience Abraham proved his faith & his love for God
John 15:10 he abided in God's love & received all that God had promise him, through his obedience to God's commands.
Today's Christianity says you can be a Christian without keeping His commandments, God loves you & His grace got you covered. This is a changing of the definition of Grace, which is defined in Scripture as Titus 2:12 Grace is the power of God to reveal our sins & to takes us out of them, not to encourage or pamper us in our sins.
Friends, God salvation is a free gift, but faith without works is dead. James 2:17-26 this is clearly seen & understood in the whole of Scriptures. Jesus Himself learn obedience by the things that He suffer, & became perfect, perfected our salvation, all for our sakes, that we may follow Him. John 14:31
in love & truth
Thank you for replying.
You said the soul is
"I want, I need, I shall, things are things that one does for his own satisfaction ".
Would not that also include, I love you, I will help you, you are my friend? Can not good things can come from the soul, too?
Gasman
Thanks for your response and question.
Jesus asks us to take a hold of his outstretched hand and pick up our crosses and follow Him. Does that take effort on our part? When you get up in the morning to read your bible, does that take effort on your part? Does it take effort on our part to pray, to ask for forgiveness, to repent? Does it take effort to give up our worldly luxuries, material things. I think we can agree the answer to all these questions would be Yes.
We are are supposed to be walking with Jesus/God toward our salvation in heaven. 'It is a relationship". He is NOT giving us a "free ticket" like many christians have been deceived by satan to believe. He wants us to work toward becoming Godly, and in doing so we will getting prepared and ready to live in His Kingdom. If we continue to live sinful worldly lives we are not following Christs examples that he gives to us so vividly throughout the scriptures and we will not receive salvation! Hebrews 10:26
Yes, it takes effort on our part. Jesus tells the adulterous to stop sinning, John 8:11. Jesus tells the invalid that he healed to stop sinning or something worse will happen to him John 5:14
Jesus expects the adulteress, the invalid, and all of us that want to inherit the Kingdom to stop sinning. Does this take an effort on our part? Yes. Jesus knows this takes effort for us. Jesus tells us we need to become humble, obedient, and teachable by following God's Commandments and by striving each day to become "sin free". Jesus promises us that he will give us The Comforter-His Holy Spirit to enable us to actually overcome sin and not only sin - but this entire World! John 14:17
I will close with a couple of great verses.
1 John 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."
1 John 5:4 "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."
GBU
Chapter 3: The Instruction: Concerning the Conduct of the Thessalonians.
Some of them thought that if we're in the tribulation period, that means the second coming of Christ is just around the corner, so we'll just quit work and sit around and do nothing because the Lord is coming.
And Paul had some words to say about people who don't work, and just sit around and wait for the things of the Lord come to pass.
This covers 1st and 2nd Thessalonians. I will share my introduction to 1 Timothy soon.
God Bless!!!
After Silvanus and Timothy returned, Paul wrote the first letter to the Thessalonians based on Timothy's good report. ( Acts 18:5) Paul then wrote the second letter to the Thessalonians after the courier that took the first letter returned and reported to Paul the new problems in Thessalonica.
IV. THE HISTORY OF THE CITY OF THESSALONICA:
Thessalonica was 50 miles west of Philippi and 100 miles north of Athens. It was the chief city of Macedonia and was a Roman Colony. The population of Thessalonica in Paul's day was 200,000 people. The city was first named Therma because of the hot springs in the area. In 316 B.C. Cassander made Therma his home base. He renamed the city Thessalonike in memory of his wife. Today it is called Salonika.
V. DATE OF THE LETTER:
Galatians was Paul's first letter written around 49-50 A.D. I Thessalonians was Paul's second letter written around 51 A.D. from Corinth. II Thessalonians was Paul's third letter written around 51-52 A.D. from Corinth. The date is certain because of historical writings found in archaeological discoveries that state that Gallio served as deputy of Achaia between 51-52 A.D.
( Acts 18:12-17).
VI. THE DOCTRINAL THEMES OF I & II THESSALONIANS:
I Thessalonians is the Instruction of Paul on the Rapture of the Church
II Thessalonians is the Instruction of Paul on the Second Coming of Christ
VII. SECTION OUTLINE OF THE BOOK OF II THESSALONIANS:
Chapter 1: The Introduction: Comfort to the Thessalonians
Chapter 2: The Instruction: Concerning the Day of the Lord. That is the biblical term for the tribulation period, right before the second coming of Christ.
We find in 2 Thessalonians that Paul's going to say that if anybody comes to you, whether it's through a spirit, making reference to somebody giving "personal revelation," by a spirit! Or whether it's through a letter, and 2 Thessalonians was written because a false letter was being circulated by false teachers that had Paul's name on it.
So, he says even if it's through a letter, or through a spirit, and it counters and contradicts what we're saying, it's false! Of course, how would the Christians in Thessalonica know that some of the things went against what Paul taught? And that's why he hurried and turned around and wrote a second letter to the Christians in Thessalonica.
I. ABOUT THE AUTHOR:
Paul and his companions Silvanus and Timothy ( II Thessalonians 1:1; 3:17). Paul's inscription is on all thirteen of his letters.
II. TO WHOM IT WAS WRITTEN:
To the believers in Thessalonica who were made up of mostly Gentiles, but some Jews believed also (Acts17:4).
III. THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH IN THESSALONICA:
Paul evangelized the area of Philippi, Thessalonica, and Berea during his Second Missionary journey along with Silvanus and Timothy ( Acts 17:1-9).
Paul ministered in Thessalonica for at least three weeks ( Acts 17:2).
Unbelieving Jews stirred up the unbelieving Gentiles against Paul ( Acts 17:5-9).
Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy left Thessalonica and went on to Berea ( Acts 17:10).
Hostile Thessalonian Jews followed Paul to Berea and stirred up the people against Paul ( Acts 17:13).
Paul left Silvanus and Timothy in Berea while he went on to Athens ( Acts 17:14).
Paul sent for Silvanus and Timothy to join him in Athens ( Acts 17:15).
From Athens, Paul sent Timothy back to Thessalonica to check on the welfare of the believers there ( I Thessalonians 3:1-2).
Paul also sent Silvanus back to Philippi while he went on to Corinth ( Acts 18:1).
Silvanus and Timothy rejoin Paul in Corinth ( Acts 18:5).
I agree with Jema that we are not saved because we keep the commandments and live in obedience to God. Our works can never remit sin or pay the immense penalty for how we have rebelled and pursued our own will in life. Only the shed blood of Jesus can do that.
And in another sense, it is valid to say that we are bund by the Spirit of grace to walk in obedience since this is how we abide in Christ. One who lives an antinomian life that goes right ahead and sins at will is not abiding in Christ and needs to turn themselves around from the heart in repentance and seek to do what the Spirit desires (which is always what is lawful, right, and good). Our obedience does not bring us into right relationship with God, but our disobedience brings us away from this fellowship of abiding in Him.
IV. THE HISTORY OF THE CITY OF THESSALONICA:
Thessalonica was 50 miles west of Philippi and 100 miles north of Athens. Thessalonica was the chief city of Macedonia and a Roman Colony. The population in Paul's day was 200,000 people. The city was first named Therma because of the hot springs in the area.
In 316 B.C., Cassander, one of the Generals of Alexander the Great, when he did pass away, his kingdom was divided up amongst his commanders. Cassander made Therma his home base. He renamed the city Thessalonike in memory of his wife. Today it is called Salonika.
V. DATE OF THE LETTER:
Galatians was Paul's first letter written around 49-50 A.D. I Thessalonians was Paul's second canonical letter written around 51 A.D. from Corinth. The date is certain because of historical writings found in archaeological discoveries that state that Gallio served as deputy of Achaia between 51-52 A.D. ( Acts 18:12-17).
VI. THE THEMES OF I THESSALONIANS:
There are two themes that are found in Thessalonians. This is what is call an eschatological letter. ESKATOS means last days.
We study the rapture of the church in 1 Thessalonians, and the second coming of Christ in 2 Thessalonians. He's dealing with last days issues.
VII. SECTION OUTLINE OF THE BOOK OF I THESSALONIANS:
CHAPTERS 1-3 - The Inspiration of the Church in Thessalonica. Paul uses them as an example to all the other churches on how to follow Christ. Other churches were inspired by the way they were obedient to Christ.
Chapter 1: The Testimony of the Thessalonians.
Chapter 2: The Testimony of Paul.
Chapter 3: The Testimony of Timothy, what he told Paul when he came back about the condition of the church there.
CHAPTERS 4-5 - The Instruction of Paul on the Rapture of the Church.
Chapter 4: The Testimony Concerning the Lord's Return, and that's coming from the Lord Himself.
Chapter 5: The Testimony Concerning Believers, how believers are to live in the last days.
I. ABOUT THE AUTHOR:
Paul and his companions Silvanus and Timothy ( I Thessalonians 1:1; 2:18). Again, Paul's inscription is on all thirteen of his letters. He personally wrote 1 Thessalonians, but he has Silvanus (and we see that he's the same as Silas in the scriptures), and then Timothy. They traveled with him during his 2nd missionary trip. And so, they are with Paul in Corinth when he is writing this letter back to the Christians in Thessalonica.
II. TO WHOM IT WAS WRITTEN:
To the believers in Thessalonica who were made up of mostly Gentiles, but some Jews believed also. Acts 17:4 tells us about Paul's ministry there in Thessalonica.
III. THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH IN THESSALONICA:
Paul evangelized the area of Philippi, Thessalonica, and Berea during his Second Missionary journey, along with Silvanus and Timothy. That's recorded in Acts 17:1-9.
Paul ministered in Thessalonica for at least three weeks ( Acts 17:2).
Unbelieving Jews stirred up the unbelieving Gentiles against Paul ( Acts 17:5-9).
Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy left Thessalonica and went on to Berea ( Acts 17:10).
Hostile Thessalonian Jews followed Paul to Berea and stirred up the people against Paul ( Acts 17:13).
Paul left Silvanus and Timothy in Berea while he went on to Athens ( Acts 17:14).
Paul sent for Silvanus and Timothy to join him in Athens ( Acts 17:15).
From Athens, Paul sent Timothy back to Thessalonica to check on the welfare of the believers there ( I Thessalonians 3:1-2).
Paul also sent Silvanus back to Philippi while he went on to Corinth ( Acts 18:1).
Silvanus and Timothy rejoin Paul in Corinth ( Acts 18:5).
After Silvanus and Timothy returned, Paul wrote the first letter to the Thessalonians based on Timothy's good report ( Acts 18:5).