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As you have already experience, they're many who will gladly give you their opinions, thus leaving you both torn & tormented with them,
Friends; you must go to God Himself to seek your answer, it's the only Way you'll have peace on this issue.
Your openness & honesty in revealing that you & your husband were living in sin before marriage is noted. This is what God is looking for, truthfulness Hebrews 10:22 as you both come before Him.
Here are some Scriptures.
Matt 10:19 "except for fornication"
John 4:10-18, here we have Jesus offering eternal life to a woman who had been married 5 times & presently living in sin
Scriptures does not reveal what all Jesus Christ spoke to the Samaritan's those two day He stay with them, but you can be sure it was on the lines of John 8:11 Hebrews 10:26
God's grace teaches us the knowledge of His will & we are to exercises it until we become more than conquerors through Him that loves us & continually gives Himself to us through His Spirit of Grace. This is putting Him on & what we receive from Christ is our inheritance in Him.
The simplest & purest definition of a Christian, is Christlikeness, to be like Jesus.
Its true we all come into this world as sinners, but it not true that we must remain sinners.
Jesus name declare His works, Matt 1:21 "saves them from their sin, not in their sins". Titus 2:14, "cleanse us all iniquity" for how else can we be Col 1:22 "present you holy, unblameable & unreproveable in His sight.
Concerning the reading of the amplified bible this is another man made opinion, throw it out the window along with the rest of the dirty water.
in love & truth
God is ONLY Love, ONLY Spirit, ONLY Light, and ONLY Holy, i.e. a Pure Mind. They are One and cannot be separated. God cannot change like shifting shadows and take upon His Self any fear, or make flesh His reality, or produce darkness which is evil. He cannot oppose Himself or be divided; His Mind is eternally pure.
if God is not anything but One in our mind, but divided, we are hopeless, stuck in space and time, remaining faithful to a split mind; a split allegiance. This is a state which literally keeps us from truly recognizing and experiencing God's perfect Love, healing, and ETERNAL patience. God is not limited to the ephemeral.
Be grateful there is NO power that will contaminate the Holy Mind of God. Thou shalt have no other gods before Him, because there are no other gods! Nothing except God is real. Unweakened power with NO opposite is what Creation is, because our Creator Is.
God Is
Peace
pg 1
1 John 4:7-8 . Because this represents truth, and if I desire to know and experience the Source of this Perfect Love, I should probably focus 100% on this Love. I should endeavor to weed out ALL that is not love in order to recognize clearly without interference, the purity of God's Love. In this, I should truly be thankful and glad that the weeds and vines which do not produce good fruit are tossed out and thrown into the fire. Good fruit is the effect of God's perfect Love and in turn extends God's Will and perfect Love; this is how we join in Creation. To recognize means to know again, implying that I knew before.
"God is Love" AND "God is NOT fear/hate" do not conflict, just as "Satan is not love" AND "Satan is fear" do not conflict. Both pairs of statements together contain the same meaning; both statements together are true.
"God is fear/hate" AND "God is not love" do not conflict, just as "Satan is love" AND "Satan is not fear" do not conflict. Both pairs of statements together contain the same meaning. In and of itself , they can and will appear to be true to a mind who is unaware of the first set of statements; or he is aware of them, but he wavers in belief the first set as truth.
The first group above is the opposite of the second. Obviously, ONLY one group can only be true, leaving the other as false.
A thought system accepting ALL the above together, having ANY possibility of coexisting, i.e. ALL being true; and maintain any hope of a unified mind, may want to pause to consider that a divided mind will never be at peace, because a divided mind is a confused mind. Peace and understanding ALWAYS go together and can never be found alone. I must first remove my FAITH in opposites.
The Mind of God is a pure fresh water spring which cannot produce anything but pure, fresh water. If It were to become contaminated with fear which we actually believe can actually oppose Love, it would produce impure, not so fresh water.
see pg. 2
Sister in Christ Star
Sister in Christ, Star
I must also add that I believe Israel ceased to be God's corporate representation of His Kingdom on earth at the Cross. And the New Testament Church ceases to be God's corporate representation of His Kingdom and custodian of the True Gospel at the beginning of the Great Tribulation.
And I believe that we are currently living in the Great Tribulation period which will end when Christ returns to complete His Salvation and Judgement Program with the Resurrection and Rapture and creation of New Heavens and New Earth.
This is why the apostle Paul in that same chapter 1st Corinthians 4 when he says be followers of me very clearly he is the apostle to the gentiles so the scriptures are time sensitive and proprietary the gospel of the Kingdom is promised to Israel everywhere in the scriptures Daniel is clear and Jesus is clear on the prayer The Lord's prayer is that we would become one in him when he prayed to the father about the glory we share but the prayer about the kingdom of God coming to Earth that is only for a thousand years it's only a sojourn but we look for new heavens and a new Earth were dwelleth righteousness hallelujah... In the end the two witnesses Elijah and that prophet Moses wrote about these two olive trees Revelations chapter 11 will unify the gospel of the Kingdom on Earth and the New testament prophet no other one qualifies except and eyewitness that's why they're called the two witnesses my two witnesses Jesus said in Revelations chapter 11 it can only be the apostle John it was an eyewitness at the cross he was the only apostle there when Jesus our savior was breathing his last cried out to God the Father to receive his spirit but before he did that he said father forgive them for they know not what they're doing so the sins of ignorance were included in the atonement hallelujah again bless his holy name the church is born after Christ is raised Alive.
I do not agree with your definition of the "Church" nor your definition of the "rock".
God speaks of the Church and Israel both in a corporate sense (God's organizational representation of His Kingdom on this earth) and in a Spiritual or Eternal sense (All True Believers throughout history). And we must look at both the immediate context and the context of the entire Bible to determine which is in view. Sometimes it can be both.
The "rock" is Christ Himself. It is not what you describe.
What we are discussing really boils down to our view of the Bible itself. Is the Bible truly the Word of God where God is the ONE AND ONLY AUTHOR of the ENTIRE Bible and every word, every phrase in the Bible is from the Mouth of God Himself. Or is it a collection of writings by Men inspired by God that merely "contains" the Word of God.
If it is the former, which indeed it is, and not the latter then the Bible is its own dictionary and its own interpreter. And we must compare scripture with scripture throughout the ENTIRE Bible to come to any Truth using the principles that God lays down for us in the Bible. And this includes the principle that "Christ spoke in parables and without a parable spoke He not".
Furthermore, we read in Rev13:8 that Christ was "the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the World." So the efficacy of Christ's payment for the sins of His Elect (the Eternal Church) extends throughout time.
There is one and only one Judgment and Salvation Program for Mankind throughout time. And that Program, the Gospel, is circumscribed by the Bible Alone and in its Entirety.
My question specifically would be WHEN these angels fell. The story of the watchers is in extrabiblical literature. I would tend more to think that they were part of the spiritual order and society that existed sometime AFTER Lucifer fell and took the angels with him; which clearly happened BEFORE Adam fell after the serpent incident in Genesis. The period between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 where the ORIGINAL creation occurred and then in verse 2 it was void and in a chaotic state probably was when there was an original flood or disaster in the earth because of the trade with violence; etc mentioned in Ezekiel 28.
Satan himself has been given the role as a usurper; temporarily squatting as it were on territory that originally was to be under God's total rule and delegated to man in the garden to take care of. Apparently it is in the Divine plan to allow him and his henchmen to control nations and regions concurrently and to ultimately bring about the Messiah and end in Armageddon where the appointed time and judgment occurs.
As for reasoning here it is likely to test men; to see if they will follow their own judgments and imaginations and continue therefore in spiritual blindness or believe through a supernatural move of the Spirit the Gospel truth which is revealed only to those predetermined in His plan ( Deut 29:29). Overcoming therefore is the flesh; world and the Devil; all three are conquered through Christ's atonement. Some things in the interim before Christ comes back are delegated to the church in this time period and to those of faith previous to that and in the Tribulation. Prayer is a major key in holding back evil and the Lord temporarily holds back judgment until the fullness of times; as Romans states regarding the Gentiles.
So I'd say "watchers" fell before Eden
Because of this, I know that we will not come to any agreement on most eschatological topics. I am fine that you think along dispensational lines. I wish you would offer me the same courtesy for thinking outside of dispensational views.
Have a good evening. I really don't wish to exchange with you on this topic so don't be surprised if I do not respond much to you.
I am happy to discuss other topics than eschatology with you. Blessings.
Part 5.
When discussing this topic we put to much emphasis on Israel. The real emphasis is on Gods Promises!
God made his name great by his dealings with a rebellious Nation, Israel was a picture of all of mankind and the Adamic nature. we would have done no better.
Without the law and Israel failure to bare fruit under the law, we have no way to measure ourselves and this fallen nature of the flesh.
Ezekiel 36:23-24 says
"And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
How do you spiritualize a verse and fulfil it?
It has to be literally do it!
How do God Allegorically be sanctified in Israel before their eyes?
And then take them from among the heathen, and gather them out of all countries, and will bring them into their own land. Allegorically!?
Gigi, you said that's the Church receiving these promises,
If God said I will gather you from all countries and left off right there, you would have a case, "small but at least you would have one"
But God went on to say and put you in your OWN Land!
When did the Church have a Land?
And if this Land is Heaven, how is it the Heathen going to see what is mentioned in the verses above?
God bless you both and Goodnight.
Part 4.
David
if God is speaking in parables when he is mentioning Israel and Jerusalem brought back to the land, and it is given to us to know the parables,
Can you or Gigi explain these three chapters of "parables" Zechariah chapters 12, 13, and 14?
Here are just a few verses.
Zechariah 12:2-3. Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zechariah 13:9. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Zechariah 14:2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Please take the liberty to read all three chapters.
I find it strange how two people can take entirely different paths or hermeneutic principles and end up at the same place on this topic.
David, you spiritualize the text as most do to get to a desired destination,
Gigi, you hitch a ride there, but don't believe in spiritualizing the text, "I've seen some of your debates with Alex and Earl"
Gigi, Can you explain what route you took to get to your viewpoint? Because if you don't believe in dispensationalism you are going to have to except Alex and Earls way of interpreting scripture to do away with these hundreds of Kingdom verses here on Earth.
See Part 5.
I stand by what I posted to David in this thread. I continue to read and study what is said in Scripture on the topic of the seed of Abraham and the promises to him. I am learning more and more as time goes on. I can see that you are very firmly decided on your viewpoint. I am not at that point yet because I am still seeking answers.
Part 3.
We are dealing with two separate issues here.
One is heirs of the promises of salvation by faith. Galatians 3:1-16.
The other is a geographic Land here on Earth;
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land. Jeremiah 23:5-8.
The Israel of God.
Galatians 6:12-16.
Here is the context in verse 12) As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
These were the judaizers, who wanted "to make a fair shew in the flesh" they were checking on the Galatians to constrain them to be circumcised.
We have two groups in play here within the body of Christ.
1) Messianic Jews/Israel is the circumcision, The Israel of God mentioned in verse 16.
2) The Gentiles is the uncircumcision and the "them" mentioned in verse 16,
It reads; "..peace be on them, and mercy, (AND) upon the Israel of God.
The remnant of believing Israel, "according to the election of grace" within the nation of Israel ( Rom. 9:6; 11:5), is recognized as the true "spiritual Israel"
It would have been strange for the apostle Paul, the Jewish believer who wrote Galatians, to refer to Gentile Christians as Israel.
See Part 4.
Gigi
You stated, "The promise of the physical land to Abraham and the Israelites was a shadow pointing to the heavenly land of promise, the New heavens and new earth.
The Kingdom here on earth is ushered in after the tribulation. It's an everlasting Kingdom with Satan being chained 1000 years, After Satan is released there will be a final rebellion and the inhabitants/Earth dwellers will war against God!
Gigi, if the New heavens and new earth is the Millenium, Are you saying that war is in heaven? The new Jerusalem doesn't come down until after Judgment, and then a new heaven and new earth!
It's has been a lot of jumping around on this topic by you.
I've seen several view changes on this topic, from the kingdom is in heaven, The kingdom is on earth, It's in your heart ect.
David.
Let's go over my post you replied to, Here's the context: Me- He's going to restore them right here on earth and fulfil the promises to Abraham.
Jeremiah 23:5-6.
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice IN THE EARTH.
Jeremiah 31:10
Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock. (Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off)
HE WANTS THE NATIONS TO SEE IT AND DECLARE IT AFAR OFF! THAT CAN ONLY BE DONE HERE ON EARTH.
The basis of your reply.
God speaks in Parables.
When God uses the term "Israel" or "Judah" or "Jerusalem" He can be talking about the corporate body (National Israel or the New Testament Church) or ALL True Believers (the Elect of God.
David when God is talking about bring a people back to their own Land, he's talking about a people that had one and was removed out of it.
See Part 3.
Thanks for responding, it's been a busy week, sorry for such a late response.
Part 1.
Acts 7:35-38 emphasis is on Moses not the Church. besides this gathering/church is the Nation Israel, Not Christ church "that he would later build mentioned in Matthew 16:18.
Christ have not been crucified yet, so the church couldn't have already been built.
The church was not built on the sacrifices of goats and calves, nor would it be built while the first tabernacle stood.
Church definition.
a calling out that is (concretely) a popular meeting especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both
As you mentioned, In Matthew 16:18 Jesus says upon this rock he will build HIS CHURCH.
So, this rock that Jesus mentions in which he will build his Church, is a rock of offence and a stumbling block to the Jews, so this gathering "The Church " is not the gathering in the wilderness.
GIGI
Galatians 3:29. Is not talking about any promises back to the land here on earth. It's not a Kingdom verse at all. It's about a contrast between Salvation by faith and the works of the Law. That's not a land promises!
Theme; Galatians 3:1-2.
Vs 14) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Also, Hebrews 11 is a chapter about faith!
The new Jerusalem comes down from heaven "After" The Millennium kingdom here on Earth. Revelation 21:1-2.
Revelation 20:7. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
See Part 2.
Those lesser gods, (because there is only ONE Most High God), did not fulfill their purpose in protecting and preserving the knowledge of the one true God and leading men back to Himself. But rebelled instead, by leading the people of the nations into idolatry and the worship of themselves. Thereby forcing God to judge and condemn them to die like men.
It is those Elohim that God is speaking to in Psalm 82. Not human judges or rulers.
That is my opinion which is based upon the teachings of the late and highly respected biblical scholar Dr. Michael S Heiser.
"Dr. Heiser attained an MA in Ancient History from the University of Pennsylvania, and an MA and PhD in the Hebrew Bible and Semitic Languages from the University of Wisconsin-Madison, where he minored in Classical studies. Dr. Heiser received his Bachelor's degree from Bob Jones University and also attended Bible college for three years."
VIII. SECTION OUTLINE OF THE BOOK OF ACTS:
It is given to us in Acts 1:8. Jesus told the disciples that you shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost, or Holy Spirit, is come upon you. And you shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem (there's your first section), and in all Judaea and Samaria (your second section), and into the uttermost part of the earth. That term "uttermost part" or the extremities, or the ends of the earth is an idiom. It means from the nearest city to the farthest village.
Acts Chapter 1 Verses 1 through 11 is the Prologue, the introduction for us. It is actually an overlap to Luke Chapter 24. I don't know of anybody that spends a lot of time reviewing like Luke does. There's a lot of overlap there! But he wants to bring over that information from Luke Chapter 24 as he begins this second part of his gospel.
And then from there, Acts Chapter 1 Verse 12 through Chapter 7 Verse 60, is the proclaiming of the gospel in Jerusalem. All of our focus will be on the ministry in Jerusalem, as the Lord told the disciples in Acts 1:8.
In Chapters 8 through 12, it will be the proclaiming of the gospel in Judaea and Samaria.
And lastly, in Acts Chapters 13 through 28, we have the proclaiming of the gospel in the uttermost part of the earth. And again, if you take the apostles that are prominent, you see that after the prologue, the proclaiming of the gospel in Jerusalem, the proclaiming of the gospel in Judaea and Samaria come under Peter's prominence.
And then the proclaiming of the gospel to the uttermost, or ends of the earth, Chapters 13 through 28, is when Paul is emphasized and is the most prominent.
So that is the introduction to the book of Acts. I will share my introduction to Romans next. Blessings in Christ Jesus!
V. THE RELATIONSHIP TO OTHER BOOKS:
At first, the gospel of Luke and the book of Acts were one document on two separate scrolls. Luke and Acts were originally circulated as the gospel of Luke Volumes 1 and 2. Later the two books were divided. And you can see why Acts would not have a title because it's the second half to the first scroll. The first scroll had a title, but the second scroll didn't. Around the second century, they decided to give it a name too, and separate them!
VI. WHY IT WAS WRITTEN:
Luke was written to present what Jesus did and taught through His human body. In Acts 1:1, it says that this was written to present what Jesus continues to do and to teach through His Spiritual body, the church. It's still the Lord. One through His human body, and now He has sent His Spirit to continue His work through his Spiritual body the church.
VII. TO WHOM WAS IT WRITTEN:
It was written specifically to the most excellent Theophilus, probably a Roman governor, and in general to all Gentiles (non-Jews), to understand the scriptures.
Now there are actually 2 outlines for the book. There are 2 apostles that are prominent. They aren't the only ones, but they are the prominent ones. From Acts Chapter 1 Verse 12, all the way to the end of Chapter 12, the prominent apostle is Peter. And from Chapters 13 through 28, the second half of the book, the prominent apostle is Paul.
Peter was the apostle to the Jews. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. It also tells you the timing when Saul of Tarsus was saved, and he became known as Paul. He's the one that went on the missionary journeys and took the gospel to the uttermost parts of the earth. Those are the Gentiles. So, the timing all the way through the book is very accurate and I'll mention that to you as we go through.
TALK ABOUT A LACK OF FAITH, I LOVE THIS ONE:
In Acts Chapter 12, Peter gets thrown in jail. So, they get together for a prayer meeting. I would hope that if I got thrown in jail for preaching Christ that my brothers and sisters would get together and pray. You might be praying "please keep him locked up as long as possible!" But at least you'll be praying.
So, they were praying "Lord, please deliver Peter." Well, Peter was delivered. He was walking down the streets of Jerusalem and he was looking for the fellowship to meet and he comes and knocks on the door. And the gal that's in charge of the door, she goes, and she says, "who is it?" And he says, "It's me Peter." She goes back in, and she tells the prayer group "Peter's at the door." They said "It can't be. He's in prison. Lord, please deliver him." He can't be at the door, he's in prison!
Look at the faith they had. They had no faith at all! They didn't believe it was Peter. And in spite of what they believed or didn't believe, in spite of what they were aware of or not aware of, God's Spirit just used them! In fact, they were so clueless, that they didn't get in the way!
Why did I even bring that up? The title to the book as I'm relating it to you, should be, and is according to Acts 1:1, the theme is the ministry of the Lord, what He continues to do and to teach. The apostles are just vessels. It's not what they do. It is the ministry that the Lord continues to do and teach.
If you look at it from that perspective, you realize that as you read through, there are things that happened through the apostles that they didn't plan or weren't even expecting. God just did it! There's no formula.