All Discussion PAGE 385

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4. 1 John 1:7-10; We all come into the world as miserable sinners Rom 3:23; but with the coming of Christ/Grace we don't have to stay that way, Rom 3:24; through the obedience of faith in the Light of His Countenance that shine in our heart, 7-10 explains the operations of Grace appearance, John 16:8 bringing these to seeds into judgment within conscience, if we then say we have not sin, we deceive ourselves ,make Him a liar & the Truth/Word is not engraft within us. But if received, He cleanses us from all unrighteousness, iniquity, transgression & sin, Titus 2:14; By receiving His convictions, is the Power received, & everyone that 1John 3:3; is experience. So there a time when He finds us in sin, & a time that He cleanse from all sin.

5. Jude 1:21-24; ; Keeping yourselves in the love of God/ is by keeping His commandments, 1John 2:3-6; John 14:24; the Light of His Countenance that shine in our hearts

& in doing so He will keep you from falling, present you faultless! This is obviously from sinning against Him.

fig leaves

Isaiah 52:14 "His visage was so marred more than any man; and His form more than any sons of men."

How deep the Father's love for us,

How vast beyond all measure

That He should give His only Son

And make a wretch His treasure.

How great the pain of searing loss.

The Father turns His face away,

As wounds which mar the chosen One

Bring many sons to glory.

Behold the man upon a cross,

My sin upon His shoulders;

Ashamed, I hear my mocking voice

Call out among the scoffers.

It was my sin that held Him there

Until it was accomplished;

His dying breath has brought me life -

I know that it is finished.

I will not boast in anything,

No gifts, no power, no wisdom;

But I will boast in Jesus Christ,

His death and resurrection.

Why should I gain from His reward?

I cannot give an answer;

But this I know with all my heart -

His wounds have paid my ransom.

(Steward Townend)

I don't think I can add much to these lyrics. Let us all pray for MORE music of this calibre (this was written in 1995). There are only a few I can think of today which are this scripturally saturated; and this meaningful; in SHORT; worthy of TRUE worship of the Lord; Master and King of Glory.

PASSION WEEK: LUKE 13:32 through LUKE 23

When we see TEN chapters of Luke encompassing the last few days of Christ's life taking up more than a third of the text in the entire book; and similar patterns in all the Gospels; the magnitude of the narrative is exponentially ratched up in terms of the stress on the Messiah; the amount of challenges; as well as the increase in variety of things preached; rebukes to the Pharisees; etc.

I think it is good to ponder on this reality carefully. Christ had already had numerous (some say 10) attempts at being killed at this point; whether attempting to throw Him off a cliff; or stoning as the most popular methodology. He knew through Divine wisdom that He was destined to die at Calvary; thus any earlier attempts to kill Him would be in vain. Nonetheless; He certainly didn't seek to take a break before facing the inevitable-until Gethsemane when He sweat drops of blood and undoutably had angelic strengthening in what was a battle of life and death according to scripture. God would later use others to help carry the cross when His strength failed.

Turning to the ministry with His Disciples; He would at this time emphasize the prophecy of future events (as seen in Matthew 24 for instance). Up until the end; it seemed the Disciples didn't get it as to His need to die (as evidenced by the account of Peter striking the ear of the High Priest when the soldiers came). He also had to deal with the rapid decay from the triumphal entry with the donkey and the "Hosanna's" from the crowd to the rapid shift to "crucify Him" just a week later. He had the betrayal of Judas Iscariot (prophesied in Psalm 41:9); the abandonment of all the Disciples in Gethsemene; and all the sufferings to come in the cruel series of trials leading up to the agony of the Crucifixion; whose physical torments would pale to taking on the sins of men and the wrath of God for us.

He was the suffering servant to the end mindful of others.

Also Bob , as a Christian , I believe that the Bible should be taken as a whole , not two different testaments , the old is a foreshadow of the new and the parallels are not coincidental . 2nd Kings chapter five is in fact a foreshadow of the new covenant in Christ , which allows the gentiles access to the God of all creation . If you have the time and inclination , add this chapter to the other two that I gave you . 2nd Kings chapter 5 verse 13 stands out ri

brght and clear . How can anyone who believes that the old is as relevant to us as the new , ignore this chapter and it's deep significance ? Sorry if I sound a bit dogmatic , the Truth is in the Bible , the whole Bible , and none of it is there by chance , it has been written by God for our instruction . The Levites were given very specific instructions about how they were to approach God , it's the same for us , I believe .

Amen to you Adam .

Nicely put Andy , Amen to you .

Hello Ashley. In my understanding, there are two aspects for those who belong to Jesus at their death: the mortal body goes into the ground & the immortal spirit returns to God ( Ecclesiastes 12:7). Some believe that both the spirit/soul & body remain together in the ground.

In Daniel 12:1,2, we read about the resurrection of the body in that final day, but there is no mention of the fate of the spirit of the deceased. Then in the account that Jesus gave of the wealthy man & poor Lazarus ( Luke 16:19-31), we note that Jesus spoke of three men: one in torment in hell's flames, one in relative peace & comfort in paradise, & with Abraham at his side. If any of these men just remained in the grave, Jesus would not have spoken of life beyond the grave soon after their deaths & such a life where either torment or peace can be experienced.

Even the Apostle Paul expressed his desire to leave this Earth ( Philippians 1:21-24) & to be with Christ, though he was required to continue to be used of God in the Gospel for a little longer. Paul didn't expect to lie in the grave, but his hope was that death would actually be welcome, for it meant that he would be with his Lord & Savior. And in passages such as Revelation 4:4; Revelation 5:5-10; Revelation 19:4; etc. we read about the Elders around God's Throne in Heaven. So I believe that at death our spirits return to God to join the host of Heaven worshiping the Lord of Glory. And when Jesus returns in the clouds to receive His beloved, those who have died in Christ will have their bodies re-formed to join their spirits, & those believers alive at that time will arise physically to be with the Lord forever. All this points to Jesus snatching away His people off the Earth before the awful Judgements of God come upon the unbelieving world. And then we all reign with Christ on the Earth in the Millennium period.

please pray for me and my family today

Yes David0921, I think that we are in some agreement: that the salvation that God has granted to all mankind is by His Grace & our Faith alone. Where the difference I see between the OT 'believers' & the NT believers, is that the one was looking forward to the Cross (without any inkling of it); and the other, looking back at the Cross where Salvation's work was fully completed.

For us, it is clear but for those pre-Cross, how did they perceive their salvation (or, even understand how God expected them to live to attain it)? Therefore, I see that their status before God was to adhere to His Commandments or suffer, to offer sacrifices for atonement, & to hope that if all requirements were met, remaining faithful to God, then they would not suffer & for some, a resurrection hope - all of Works to get there.

Conversely, those post-Cross didn't need to obey God's Commandments to receive His Salvation, obviously no need for sacrifices (for Jesus was the Sacrificial Offering to God), & we don't have any fear of rejection because none of the above were requirements for acceptance - God, in His Son, came for us & accomplished all. So ultimately those of the OT folk who did according to the Word of God & believed in God to redeem them knew that nothing more could be done towards their salvation, but it was now all in God's Hands. Those who spurned God's Word, engrossed in sin, idolatry, etc., had no hope.

Whereas we (post-Cross), can have confidence (i.e. if truly repentant, calling on God), that our salvation is secure, based wholly on what God has done & not on our merits. Here then is the difference - because in considering the Doctrine of Salvation, it is not just about the destiny of the soul (which is clearly the goal), but that which goes on before to attain it: is it of Works (& then God judges them on their love & faith in Him & then applying Jesus' Blood also to them), or is it only of Faith (where our sin was judged at the Cross) & our works will follow?

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

First one must turn (repent) from what God considers sin.

second, be completely immersed (baptized) in water while calling on and believing Jesus, (just as Jesus and all new converts were baptized.)

and third you will have the Holy Spirit.

These 3 signify: your death to sin as Jesus died for our sin. Your burial as Jesus was intombed (buried). And your new life guided by God whereas Jesus rose from the dead and was glorified.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

I was always under the assumption that when saved Christians die, they go to Heaven immediately. Daniel 12:2 has somewhat perplexed me. Do people just "sleep" in their graves until Christ's Second Coming? Or are they waiting in Heaven for us? Please help me understand.

Yes Adam.

Baptism does save us. But not water baptism. What saves us is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, as God Himself applies His Salvation to our life in washing away our sins.

Water Baptism is a sign and a symbol of God's action and has no efficacy in itself. It is, in fact, a work that we do; not a work that God does.

And if we are trusting in any work that we do to save us, we are trusting in a works-grace gospel that cannot save.

Again Chris,

Thank you for your response.

I focus on the last paragraph of page 2 of your last response where you seem to be taking issue with my statement that the Salvation of Old and New Testament Believers is the same Salvation.

I have read that paragraph several times and confess to not understanding what you are communicating. That may be on me.

I am not suggesting that Old Testament Believers had as much information about the Nature of Salvation as we do today. They did not have the Whole Bible as we do.

But I am saying that there is one and only one Salvation that God has worked out even before He created the world. And it is God Himself that applies that Salvation to those He has chosen to save throughout time. And it is a Salvation of Grace Alone where God does 100% of the work in saving us. And our works contribute nothing to that Salvation. And this is the Salvation that Abel and Noah and Abraham and Moses and David experienced. And that every New Testament Believer experiences as well.

That Salvation is not dependent on how much we know about the Gospel. Look at the Ninevites; how much did they know and understand about the Gospel. But they experienced exactly the same Salvation as anyone else that becomes saved throughout time.

So if you are suggesting that there is a difference in the Salvation of Old and New Testament Believers, what is that difference?

Yes, Frankie J., I see we understand Romans 8:4 differently. The "righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us" to me means, that where the letter of the Law failed in that it couldn't produce righteousness in one's life, now we who live by the Spirit & not by the Law, will have the full & clear meaning & application of that Law placed into our hearts. How we respond to the Holy Spirit Who has placed the WHOLE Law (i.e. the Law that reveals righteousness) in our hearts is another matter about obedience. Whether or not we obey Him still does not deter from the fact that the righteousness contained within the Law has been given to us.

My not using 'abrogated' was intentional & not sneaky, as I try not to overuse words & phrases - yet the meaning should remain the same. Very perceptive of you to notice this.

And for the rest of your comments, I don't think I can adequately address them, as I note that you have not understood what I've said, hence you believe that I am "speaking from both sides of my mouth". And that's fine. I think if you've followed my other posts even from years ago, then the message & work of the Cross & the liberty we can enjoy as believers by life in the Holy Spirit, brings no contradiction or conflict. Where there can be conflict, is when I stand against an adherence to a Law never designed to give life, where the Work & Power of the Holy Spirit is never measured against the futility & temporariness of that Old Law, & when any claim of attaining a sinless life in the present is impossible in the light of the Scriptures, are raised.

And so with your closing words, I think that our understanding of God's Word in relation to these subjects at least, shows that in spite of the many Scriptures we've looked at, our understanding will always be at variance, & only further Light from the Spirit can reveal more & impress it upon our hearts. So God bless you Frankie J & I'll close this off here, as our writing has now drifted too far apart.

Page 2. Bro. Dan.

And what if we only speak to others of aiming to be sin-free and not the reality of a life where sin will always make an entrance? - what happens to them when they can't, losing their battles, getting depressed for failing their Lord? We're then left with greater tragedies by lives defeated & utterly confused. If being sinless can be a present reality, then yes, it must be taught. But nowhere in the Bible I read it as you suggest.

1 John 3:6. In the Greek, the verb applying to 'the one who abides in Him, 'sinneth' not', is what I understand as a 'present indicative active' verb. That is, the verse declares that the person who is truly abiding in Christ is not a person presently behaving in a sinful condition, or continuing in sin. Not that he is sinless, but when sin is committed, he is dealing with it & not entertaining it. The hallmark of those NOT 'in Christ', is that sin is of no consequence & if the conscience is affected, he will deal with the matter in his own way, in his own time. However, for the true believer, any sin has to be immediately identified as that which is against the Will of God & must be dealt with accordingly. There is no suggestion in this verse that the one in Christ no longer sins. GBU.

Hello Bro. Dan. You stated, "This is the defeatist attitude that mosthave accepted over the years" I don't see this as defeatist, but a realist's attitude. And this realist, who of course is a believer in Christ & the Word of God, will know that this is not a doom & gloom picture that is presented, but a fact of the continual battle of the spirit & the flesh that rages daily - but that there is power to overcome & be victorious and this lies in obedience & a close walk with the Holy Spirit. When a person reaches that stage in his life of total unflinching obedience, then he would indeed be without any sin, for no temptation would ever be allowed to germinate into sin.

Hence every letter by the apostles, even the apostles themselves, were conscious of sin at their heart's door & that freedom from giving into sin cannot be found in this life. Paul's account in Romans chapter 7 is very telling. After writing about his deliverance from the Old Law which revealed his sin & led to death (vv 5,6), he now served God in "newness of spirit" (i.e. in his born again spirit). Yet, he lived in the flesh & in the flesh "dwelleth no good thing (v18); he delighted in God's Law, but he could not get away from the other law that worked in his members (flesh) (vv 22,23). And this other law continued to draw him into sin (vv 19,20). And so he sums up his predicament in v 25, that "with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin". Paul knew his battle was continual & he would have failures, but he took heart that though the flesh which cannot be renewed in this life as his spirit could, he would still fail God & sin, but in his spirit & great desire, he persistently pursued God's Will to live for Him & please Him. Did Paul ever reach that state of sinlessness, as you suggest that Christians can achieve? He might have longed for it, as we all should, but the reality of it is that sin will always make its appeal, & we will sometimes fail. Onto Page 2.

Would you agree that baptism is a command?

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" 1 Peter 3:21 KJV

Does this verse above say baptism doth NOT save us, or that it does? I didn't write this, God did. Are your words in perfect alignment with what God said here? Does it say that baptism is unimportant and should be avoided and definitely do NOT be baptized or does it say the opposite of that?

Mark 16:16

Acts 2:38

Matthew 28:19

John 3:5

Ephesians 4:5

It sure seems very important based on these verses, do you agree? Blatant disobedience is not a sign of a true Christian according to what the Bible says.

John 15:10

I've never understood how someone can call himself a Christian but aim to do the very minimum they assume they need to do in order to get to heaven. I don't think Jesus is a bare minimum type of being. He wants all of you like the greatest commandment says: Matthew 22:37-38. It doesn't say love God with only part of your heart and pick and choose whatever you're comfortable with in obeying and its totally cool if you don't do 50% of the stuff in the Bible. The life of a Christian is to be a slave to righteousness. It's not just a get out of hell free card to enjoy following satan and do whatever lust the heart desires. Most will cry Lord Lord at the end assuming they're saved, but will not be. These are people that tell everyone they're saved and will be devastated on how they got it wrong and actually didn't love Jesus like they claimed.

NUMBERS CHAPTER 21

Cont...

The people sang a song, "Spring up, O well, sing ye unto it. "So apparently, they sang to the well to open up the springs. Then they traveled to Mattanah, Nahaliel, Bamoth, in the valley, then to the top of Pigsah, which looked towards Jeshimon. These places are all on the east side of the Jordan valley and river. They were traveling north ward. From there the leaders of Israel sent messengers to the king of the Amorites, Sihon, to ask to pass through their land, going along the king's highway until they leave the border of the Amorites. But Sihon would not allow them to do so and went against them with his armies at Jahaz. Israel overcame the Amorites and took possession of the king's land from the Arnon to the Jabbok rivers. They dwelled in the Ammonite cities, including the king's city of Heshbon. c

They continued to push out the peoples of the Amorites until they came to Bashan east of the sea of Galilee. Og, the king of Bashan, (was a giant-14 ft.) came against Israel at Edrei. The LORD told Moses not to fear because the people of King Og will be delivered to Israel just like the people of king Sihon. And so it happened and none of the people of Bashan were left alive. Israel took possession of this land.

God continued to be faithful to Israel and His promises despite the rebellion and unbelief of the people. When they repented, He blessed them, giving them victory after victory of the people along the east side of the Jordan valley. They possessed this land. But the Edomites were still in possession of their land. God must have had a reason for Edom remaining in control of their land. Perhaps it was due to them being close kinsmen, being descended from Esau, Jacob's twin brother, a descendant of Abraham, though not the lineage of the chosen nation of God, but nonetheless, blessed by God on account of Abraham, just like Ishmael was blessed by God because of Abraham, though not the people of the promise as Isaac was.

NUMBERS CHAPTER 21

Continued...

They asked Moses to pray to the LORD and have Him remove these serpents. They must have been very prevalent and not just a few here and there. I would say they were overrun by the serpents, just as sin overruns those who are careless towards God. Perhaps the serpents just dropped out of the sky, since elsewhere in Scripture they are described as flying fiery serpents, (dragons)

Moses prayed and God instructed Moses to create a bonze serpent and place in on a pole. Those who followed his instructions to look upon the snake on the pole would be healed of their bite, but those who refused to look upon the snake would die from their bite. Interesting in that the serpents were sent upon them due to their sin. And the image on the pole was the object God used to punish them for their sin. They had to look upon the object that brought their punishment to be healed.

Jesus said compared Himself to the serpent on the pole in this chapter and that any who look to Him and believe on Him will not perish, but have eternal life. ( John 3:14-15) He became sin on the cross, he took our sin upon Himself, and took the punishment for our sin from the Father, and nailed our sin to the cross, so that we could have eternal life in Him.

After this episode with the serpents and God removing the serpents, the Israelites set out and camped in Oboth, then Ije-abarim, in the wilderness of Moab, east of Jordan. Then move on to the valley of Zared. From there they camped on the other side of the Arnon River, in the Amorite territory where it borders Moab. Verse 14-15 mentions a book of wars that tell of what the LORD did in these areas for the Israelites. This must have been a book scribed by another Israelite and was not preserved or discovered yet.

From the brooks of the Arnon River (Ar) they went to Beer, were there was a well without water. God promises to bring forth water from the well after the princes and nobles dug up the well at God's direction.

NUMBERS CHAPTER 21

Since the king of Edom would allow the Israelites to passthrough their region to enter the promised land, the Israelites had to backtrack to the Red Sea at the Gulf of Aqaba and traverse around the region Edom controlled to then draw near to the Jordan River. It seems that Edom possessed the land south of the Dead Sea and somewhat westward from that since the Israelites were at the border of Edom at Kadesh/Mt. Hor. While at Mt. Hor where Aaron died, the king of Arad, which was north of them in Canaan,, heard that the Israelites were coming the way that the spies had come 40 years earlier. These Aradites occupied the southern portion of the promised land. They came against the Israelites, taking some prisoners. The Israelites vowed to the LORD that they would utterly destroy these Aradites if the LORD would deliver them into their hands. And so it happened that God gave them the Aradites and this people were utterly destroyed by the Israelites along with the destruction of their cities. The Israelites name the place Hormah meaning destruction or broken rock.

From this area in the wilderness of Zin near Mt. Hor, the Israelites then set out by way of the Red sea, going around Edom to the East. This was a circuitous route and the Israelites soon became weary and began to grumble once again against Moses and the manna and wishing to have stayed in Egypt. All of their "go-to" complaints revived.

So, again, the LORD brings judgment upon them by way of sending fiery serpents who bit them and many died. It is unclear if these were truly natural poisonous snakes that inhabited that area or if these were seraphs since the word seraph translates to fiery serpent. Either way, the serpents were real and the bites real, and the deadliness was real. Sin is deadly! Soon after this serious punishment, the Israelites came to Moses and confessed that they had sinned with their grumbling against the LORD and Moses.

The only problem here is that Richard may not even see your comment since you haven't attached it to his, or he may be otherwise occupied. So it would be incorrect to regard him as discourteous by not giving you a response. You will find that many here don't respond to answers given for various reasons; I wouldn't have the knowledge about them to judge them for it. With that said, I do agree with you that "corporate" is not the correct word to be used in this context of prayer. Maybe a synonym of it, such as 'collective, communal, or united' would be more appropriate.

Well stated David.

God bless.

You're welcome Bob.

And I concur with David.

God bless.

New Covenant vs Old Covenant.

When comparing the two I believe the difference is in fruit barring.

This is something that can only be done by being connected to the genuine vine. John 15:1-5.

We can do nothing without Christ.

These verses and many others is tied to this "working of the Holyspirit."

Romans 6:5-10.

Romans 8:11.

This is the life giving spirit that we get once we truly believe.

This is baptism!

This is Christ in us, and we in him.

Jesus said that those who abide in Him will bear much fruit. That fruit is more than ministry results, it is also the evidence of a life lived in God.

IF WE'RE CONNECTED TO THE VINE WE WILL BARE FRUIT!

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Galatians 5:22-23

This is what the natural man can not do and what the OLD COVENANT couldn't produce.

Galatians 5:17-18 says; "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

BUT IF YE BE LED OF THE SPIRIT, YE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW"

Also see.

Matthew 7:18.

Salvation is inward. It's a new heart that CAUSES you to produce fruit.

It's not forced by command.

Christ put his life giving Holyspirit IN you, and that "Holyspirit in you" won't turn you from him.

It would be turning him from himself.

Again; This is Christ in you, and we in him.

Ephesians 4:30 is something the law and the Old covenant couldn't do. See; " Galatians 5:17-18"

Now what you do, it is he that works in you! Philippians 2:13.

By fruit we shall know them and by it, we can examine ourselves also.

We can use Galatians 5:19-26 as a guide.

Ephesians 4:1-16 is what every Christian should keep by his side.

God bless.

Hi David,

Thanks for your input regarding this subject of sin. Your are stating something that most Christians (including myself) have been taught to believe over many years. You stated: But we will not and CANNOT become a sinless personality until we have become "saved" both in SOUL and BODY. If we can't, then why did Jesus give us His Holy Spirit? John3:6-7 1John 3:9. John1:12

I mean no disrespect here, but you are reiterating the mindset of millions of Christians. I accepted this view for years, and didn't begin to question it until recently. Common sense tells me that if we convince ourselves the we CANNOT do something -we can assure ourselves that we will NEVER accomplish our goal. Our goal according to God/Jesus is to stop sinning! John 5:14 John 8:11

Matthew 17:20

"And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

I believe that our failure to stop sinning is directly related to our faith. If Jesus tells us we can move a mountain he is telling us that we can stop sinning.

David you are saying that we can't stop sinning even with God's Holy Spirit which in direct contradiction to Matt 17:20 with Jesus telling us directly - "nothing shall be impossible unto you" do you believe this? Something that we all need to think about.

GBU

I will study these chapters.

Thank you Jema

Thank you for your time and comforting insights, I do appreciate it.

Bob

Thank you Jema, I will study those chapters.

Bob W,

Water Baptism does not contribute to our Salvation in any way whatsoever. It is not a requirement for Salvation, it does not guarantee our Salvation, it does not seal us so that we will not lose our Salvation.

Water Baptism during the Church Age, like Circumcision in the Old Testament, was a sign pointing to some aspect of the Nature of Salvation. In this case the washing away of our sins by God Himself when God applies His Salvation to our life in saving us.

Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

The Baptism that saves is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, God Himself. Water Baptism is a sign and a symbol of the Baptism that God performs.

Do not fall into the snare of trusting in Water Baptism as contributing to your Salvation in some way. Unfortunately that is what National Israel did to a high degree with regard to the Ceremonial Laws. And what many of the New Testament Churches have done to one degree or another.