All Discussion PAGE 386

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Hi Chris

Quoting you (we can never fulfill the law perfectly,) this is against Scriptures, Rom 8:4; it doesn't state a little or mostly, but fulfill in Christ Jesus! He's the Head, we're His body.

I've notice you've left the word 'abrogated', out of this conversation, no doubt; after this enlightenment, yet your being shifty to your assertions, as you indirectly assert it again by Hebrews 8:13; deceitfully clever, whether you were mindful of it or not, the Lord know the intent of our hearts. The Law; is only vanish away if we are walking in the Spirit, Gal 5:16; If we sin, than the Law revives & the penalty of death ensues. Sin is not to be continue in, to be repeated over & over again for life, the holy writ says, Rom 6:11; through the exercising of the Word of His Grace/Righteousness, it, the sin nature in purge out as we remain confident, faithful & steadfast unto the end. Hebrews 10:36-39;

This liberty that you speak of in the NC, from the context of our previous conversation; your stated, to fully know & obey God's will, by the working of Holy Spirit in them, your stating this can be accomplish, now your being evasive in this statement also, Titus 2:7; Friend, your speaking out of both sides of your mouth here, James 1:8; James 3:11,12; this doesn't become godliness, truth in the inward parts & righteousness in either testament.

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The liberty that you indirectly or directly speaking of, is an allowance or plead to continue in sin, resulting in a form of godliness but denying the power to make you truly godly. Your book learning that you so greatly esteem, has veiled you to shun the cross. Rom 8:5; Philippians 3:3; Philippians 3:18,19; No wonder Holy Spirit led me into mentioning the cross in our previous discussion, which you says, you didn't understand why I would mention this as relating to our topic. John 1:5; Reread.

Sad to say, as of now, these things maybe hidden from you & according to your faith, so is it being done unto you, for how can an unclean faith bring forth a pure vessel, 2 Timothy 2:21;

God in His great love for you is reaching out to you, I have not spoken from myself, but waited for His counsel in all our conversations, this is O & NT pattern; I've spoken plainly & felt from the beginning in reading your testimony, that God has a future purpose for you, when a farmer plants a seed, it takes much nurturing & patience & pruning to bring about fruit, but it is only accomplish within us, by a sincere love for the Truth, especially when His two edged sword is facing towards us, this I have had very much experience in. There He will make us to know His wisdom that is from above. & yet, same sword that cuts, also heals, bless the Lord, don't allow His Seed to remain among thorns, Mark 4:7; Jeremiah 4:3,4; Rev 18:4;

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with this aspect, the OT folk would not have known, for there was nothing in the Law to guide them further (e.g. adultery was the physical act; Jesus said that it (& all sin) begins in the heart & not in the act). So the connection is evident - but the Truth is made real & the more meaningful & attainable when the Holy Spirit of Truth & Grace is revealed. This is Dispensational Truth & Understanding to me.

Re: the statement you extracted from my comment to Frankie J; I admit I did not elaborate on what I meant by "saved by the sacrifices", since I assumed that folk would know that those sacrifices couldn't give salvation, but Israel was 'saved' or kept from God's Wrath against their sin, by His receiving those sacrifices, the blood shed & the aroma that rose up before Him, while awaiting the coming Promise of that One & Only acceptable Sacrifice that would fully & permanently cleanse them before God. So no new salvation plan - just a temporary one that covered Israel's sin awaiting God's provision & not man's efforts.

And then you wrote, "And that Salvation is the same Salvation that has "saved" every True Believer throughout time." The common factors in this 'Salvation' plan (OT & NT) are revelation of personal sin, provision of a sacrifice, & the need for cleansing & acceptance by God. Though under both Covenants the common thread is very strong, yet Israel could never be saved through the sacrificial system & religious practises & had to await the Perfect one. Thus their 'salvation' cannot be the same as the Salvation given by Jesus Christ, for Israel was still in their sins, no matter how much love & religious fervor they had towards God. Hence, the Dispensational view helps me make sense of it: that 'their salvation was unlike the Salvation given by Jesus - but it does lead to it and that 'by faith alone', that which was required by them & us towards God.

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Thanks David0921, I do appreciate our exchanges here. To your first point: I've never thought myself as a Dispensationalist, believing that a Bible reader naturally views the whole Bible panorama in such a way; but since writing on these pages, I've come to understand that not all Christians view it like this. Therefore, yes, I am a Dispensationalist, as that is the only way for me to view & understand the Bible, specifically God's working in the lives of people & the unfolding of His Plan, to the end that the World might experience His Love & be drawn back to Him through that Gift of Love & Redemption. And being a 'dispensationalist', I do also see as you do, that "God Himself, the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, the One True God is, in fact, the AUTHOR of the ENTIRE Bible." My position certainly doesn't discount this great Truth - it's just how we view & apply this Truth; to you & others, a 'non-dispensational' view makes the Bible truly meaningful, but to those who read it as I do, the Bible becomes unclear even to misapplying these Truths, as we see in this great example we've been discussing here: i.e. was the given Law (in the OT) only for Israel, or for all nations? Just at this point alone, if we don't find agreement then anything we write in support of it, will take us further apart, not finding common agreement.

And of course, I also see, as you do, the connections between the Old & the New (e.g. with the Laws), yet I also see a clear distinction where the purposes & practises of the Old are almost always different from the New. Hence, we need to take great care in how we 'divide' the Word, for our understanding & our teaching to others. So when we come to the Commandments of Jesus (as you shared), there is most certainly a connection to the Old, yet Jesus gave a whole different meaning & understanding to them - (see page 2.)

Dear Bob , the entire book of Acts is very helpful on this subject , in particular chapters 8+10 . May God guide you into His Truth.

Hi Bob.

Water baptism only saves the believer in type.

It's an outward ritual of the work of our Lord on the cross. It's your open testimony.

The Old Testament Jew was saved before he brought the offering. That offering was only his outward testimony that he was placing faith in the Lamb of God of whom these sacrifices were a type....Water baptism is the outward testimony of the believer's inward faith. The person is saved the moment he places his faith in the Lord Jesus.

God bless.

Please pray for me. I've been sick going on 2 weeks now. I've already missed 2 Sunday services. Coughing to the point I can't sleep, dizziness, and running off. I have no clue what this is. But whatever it is it's got to be of the devil. My throat is so sore from coughing.

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I was baptized as a child but am not sure where exactly that puts me. You've given me things to ponder. again thank you for your time and comments.

Bob

Hello Bro dan,

I have been directing my comments to Chris for reasons that I have stated in my comments to him. However I felt compelled to respond to you directly regarding a very important truth which you seem to be missing.

When it comes to the Nature of our Salvation, that Salvation, as applied to our life, is only PARTIALLY COMPLETE when we have become BORN AGAIN. As long as we exist on this sin-cursed earth as a "saved" individual, we have only become "saved" in our SOUL existence. And our new Resurrected SOUL still resides in a BODY that has not been "saved" and still lusts after sin. Our Salvation will not be completed until the Last Day when Christ returns to Resurrect and Rapture every TRUE BELIEVER in giving them their Resurrected Spiritual BODY which will then be united with their Resurrected SOUL to form a complete SINLESS PERSONALITY in which they will never sin again.

That said, if we have become BORN AGAIN, which is the case for every TRUE BELIEVER, we will have an ERNEST and ONGOING DESIRE to turn away from sin in our life as we "Grow in Grace" as God works in our life to "will and to do of His good pleasure". And if we don't find that reality in our life, we have every reason to question whether or not we have become a TRUE BELIEVER. But we will not and CANNOT become a sinless personality until we have become "saved" both in SOUL and BODY. And that, apart from a handful of individuals like Moses, Enoch and Elijah who are in Heaven both in their Spiritual SOUL and BODY, will not occur until the Resurrection and Rapture at the Last Day.

Footnote to last posting.

The statement of the man in the last section who wished to bury his father was; according to some sources; indicitive of a year long mourning obligation. The last person; as well in bidding farewell may have had some longer thing in mind as well.

This was getting closer to the end of His ministry; so time was of the essense here. Ultimately; we can think of the verses that state it is better to cut your hand off then enter into hell whole. It is a relative truth; rather than focusing on specifics here; we also can note that none of these people thought it over and came back after taking care of the errand.

LUKE 9:51-62

51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,

52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.

53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.

54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

This section shows the fourth error of the Disciples. What could have been an honest misunderstanding (such as a similar situation when Christ after He was resurrected acted as He would go further on the road to Emmaus) turned into another lesson from the Lord as to the role of Christ. Jesus would come as judge; but for the time was only there to save men. Those He did condemn were the ones who saw the miracles and didn't believe (Bethsaida; Capernium; and Chorazin)

57 And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.

58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.

62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Lack of shelter; and family commitments before God held back these three individuals.

LUKE 9:44-50(PART b of Part 2 on Luke 9:37-62)

44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.

45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

This discourse came; as it frequently did seemingly as a random insert to whatever other events were going on in conversation.

This understanding was paramount in Christ's messages specifically to the Disciples; who were privy to such information before Christ revealed it to the crowds that He indeed was the "I am" of scripture; the Son of God. The only Disciple we can be sure of got the message on His deity was Peter; but verse 45 shows that they didn't grasp what His mission was; besides being truimphant someday ruling as King over Israel. The fear of preserving Christ in fact was what caused Jesus much later on to say "Satan get behind me" when Peter insisted that this should not happen to Him.

46 Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.

47 And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,

48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.

This nonsense was again repeated during the Passion week; so Satan no doubt would continue to recycle the same garbage.

This shows how human pride comes before a fall; and how far their hearts were from where they should have been.

49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Again; this third error showed their pride in being His hand picked Disciples rather than focus on God and His work done by any willing vessels.

A DAY IN THE LIFE OF CHRIST (PART TWO: LUKE 9:37-62)

37 And it came to pass, that on the next day, when they were come down from the hill, much people met him.

38 And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child.

39 And, lo, a spirit taketh him, and he suddenly crieth out; and it teareth him that he foameth again, and bruising him hardly departeth from him.

40 And I besought thy disciples to cast him out; and they could not.

41 And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither.

42 And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father.

43 And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples,

These verses demonstrate how Jesus was besieged by crowds whenever He appeared. The request is from a man in regard to his only child requesting healing (v. 38-40). The upbraiding by Christ in verse 41 was unclear in whether it represented the lack of faith of the Disciples; the man himself or the crowd in general (perhaps all three). He cast out the demon; and other cross references in Mark 9 and Matthew 17:21 states that prayer and fasting were needed to perform this casting out. Perhaps we see how the previous experience in the beginning of the chapter wasn't enough to make the Disciples proactive; or it made them think that success was guaranteed without proper preparation in prayer (where God may have revealed that He wanted them to fast).

No worries Bro Dan , it's not always easy to tell a person's tone when it's just text , glad we two are ok :) .

Hi Jema,

Please be assured I'm not offended:)

And hope I didn't offend you or others - just presenting the scripture as I see it, and believe that I'm currently questioning the status qou as it applies to the Christain mindset regarding sin.

GBU

Hi Chris, You state: "I don't believe that any Christian, at least here on these pages, would ever advocate that we can just continue sinning because we can never get victory over sin - this I have state numerous times here over the years."

Then you go on to state: " But the fact remains that we can never be free from sin in this life" You are telling others here exactly what I was stating in my previous post: That Christains are reinforcing the idea - that we can never be free from sin! This is the defeatist attitude that most Christains (including myself) have accepted over the years, and by continuing to embrace this, it seems to me we are dooming ourselves to sin, when in fact Jesus tells us we can overcome sin.

1 John 3:6 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."

So, do we believe other Christains telling each other that we will always be living in sin because we can't possible ever be sin free, or do we believe Jesus when He tells us we need to stop sinning, also scripture above "whosover sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." Do we really know God if we continue to sin? If we don't believe that we can truly stop sinning and work toward that goal with the help of Gods Holy Spirit - we will need to disregard all of the scripture like this.

You state: "I've not met anyone who genuinely believes that he/she has reached that state & is now sinless". There are over 2.5 Billion Christains in the world today. You may not have met anyone that you know that would be living sin free, but don't you think it is possible that there may be some Christains out there in the world that may be living sin free. Something to think about.

Regarding 5:14 & John 8:11 Jesus said stop sinning. Sin is Sin. He didn't say stop committing adultery or any other specific sin - so we have to believe when when he spoke to the adulteress and the invalid - He said: stop sinning - it means all Sin!

GBU

Chris (continued from earlier response)

The statement below is a quote from one of your responses to Frankie.

"The Old Covenant showed man his sin & God's Vengeance was upon him (but saved by the sacrifices); "but Grace & Truth came by Jesus Christ" ( John 1:17) & we now can receive unconditional pardon."

Forgive me for extracting that comment out of its context, but by that statement you are asserting a different Salvation plan for those saved in National Israel of the Old Testament from the Salvation of the New Testament. And the Salvation plan you are asserting is a Salvation based upon Works rather than Grace. And that CANNOT be. It is the snare that the Pharisees fell into.

We read in Hebrews and in particular Hebrews 10:1-4

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

All of the "ceremonial" aspects of the Law were given to National Israel as a PICTURE of the Nature of Salvation. And not as a MEANS to Salvation. They were types and shadows of the real SUBSTANCE of Salvation.

And that Salvation is the same Salvation that has "saved" every True Believer throughout time.

We MUST allow the Bible, The WHOLE Bible, to interpret itself.

More later.

Chris,

Thank you for responding. Let me say that in having this dialogue with you I'm not focusing on you personally. But your understanding regarding the nature of the Bible is, I believe, quite typical of the view held by many in that it is "Dispensational" in its approach to scripture with which I do not agree. And fails to fully recognize that God Himself, the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, the One True God is, in fact, the AUTHOR of the ENTIRE Bible.

And that in order to come to Truth regarding any subject in the Bible, we must look at everything the Bible declares regarding that subject. In order to understand the Commandments given in the Old Testament, we must view them in the light of the New Testament. I order to understand the Commandments given in the New Testament, we must view them in the light of the Old Testament. In order to come to Truth, We CANNOT isolate the one from the other as many are want to do.

God's revelation in regards to the Law, Judgement, Salvation, Israel, the Church, the Great Tribulation, the End of the World, any doctrine is "progressive". And we CANNOT come to Truth if we isolate any part of the Bible from any other.

For example, the Commandments of Jesus CANNOT be separated from the Commandments of the Old Testament. They are a commentary on each other. In fact the Commandments of the Old Testament are every bit the Commandments of Jesus as those in the New Testament. Psalm 119 is every bit as applicable to the New Testament Believers as to the Old Testament Believers. The Salvation of the New Testament is the Salvation of the Old Testament.

To be "under the Law" or to be "free from the Law" has the same meaning for Old Testament Believers as New Testament Believers. And if I'm understanding what you are saying, your understanding of these terms is not what the Bible is teaching. More on this later but I'm out of space and time for now.

May God in His Mercy lead us into Truth from His Word.

Desolation

please remember me and my family today in your prayers

Joleen, I thought about that when you said you could not taste or smell. I will keep you all in prayer.

Heavenly Father, we ask that You place a protective covering over all in Joleen's family. Strengthen their immune system so that they can overcome this infection. Bring healing to all and let there not be any residual symptoms post-infection. We ask You these things Father, according to the words of Your Son Jesus that we can ask in His name and You will answer. Amen.

Dear Charlie,

You missed Richard's point markedly. He was referring to two or more gathered together to pray, knowing that when we pray in the name of Jesus, the Father answers our prayers ( John 14:13-14)

I think Charlie, you're referring to Richard's mention of 'corporate prayer' in his recent post. I can't speak for him, but when I have used this phrase, it meant that the Church (or a Bible Study group) comes together for prayer as a whole body (i.e. not an individual's private time with the Lord).

Page 2. Frankie J.

And I share in agreement with your comment from 1 Peter 1:2, etc.

But I don't believe that I have had a "change of heart" about the liberty we have in the new Covenant. I've never ever subscribed that a believer should ever think that it is right to live a life of sin, but when sin surfaces, he recognizes it for what it is, repents, & amends his ways with the Spirit's Help. I don't ever see that we can be sinless in this life, but we can deal with 'the sin that works in our members that wars against the law of our minds (what we know by the Spirit as the right way to live)' ( Romans 7:23). This war will always be with us - how we listen to the Spirit's Voice & take hold of His Enabling, will give either victory or defeat. But living a sin-filled & defeated life can never be the mark of one truly born again. Blessings.

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Thanks Frankie J. I did note your initial comment about 'how we fulfil the requirements of the Law'. Yet, the point I was trying to highlight is that we can never perfectly fulfil them, as Jesus the sinless One, did. The Law was never designed for men (Israel) to obey as God demanded - it only was given to show them their sin ("by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20). We can "pick up the Cross & following Christ", but only by the indwelling Spirit of God can the Law be fully known as God intended (the Decalogue in its given state couldn't do this), all our sin be exposed, & we can experience full forgiveness on the merits of Christ's Sacrifice.

Hebrews 8:13. I should have quoted from Hebrews 8:7-13, where to the House of Israel, a new Covenant will be made, not according to the old Covenant with their fathers. Had the old Covenant been without fault, there would be no need for the New. In this new Covenant, Israel will have God's Laws written into their hearts & minds, that which they had not had before this (future) time. And with the inception of this new Covenant, the Old will vanish away. I see that Israel, because of their blindness & hardheartedness, have yet to acknowledge the Savior of God & until they do & turn wholly to Him in faith, they will still be bound to the old Covenant. But to those IN Christ now, the new Covenant in Christ's Blood is already administered to us, where God's Laws are written upon our hearts & minds by His Spirit, that which Israel still waits for.

And so Jesus is the "mediator of this new Covenant", that speaks of God's Mercy towards the sinner & Grace to receive His forgiveness & healing, something that the shed blood of Abel was in total contrast. It only cried out for vengeance from the ground ( Genesis 4:10). The Old Covenant showed man his sin & God's Vengeance was upon him (but saved by the sacrifices); "but Grace & Truth came by Jesus Christ" ( John 1:17) & we now can receive unconditional pardon.

Amen Brother S. Spencer. We need to keep short accounts with God, knowing His Great Mercy He has shown towards us, as those undeserving of the least of it; even coming to live in us by His Spirit to secure our love & life through His Son. We can boast of nothing except in His Cross & His life-changing Spirit.

My brother was misdiagnosed, turns out we all have Covid. Please keep us in mind, feeling weak both physically and spiritually.

Thank you brothers and sisters.

as a male i had long hair for a while but was moved to cut it off so i could be better in line with Gods word and not dishonor myself when out soulwinning and being in the church.

- 1 Corinthians 11:4

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1 John 2:3-5: speaks of keeping Jesus' Commandments, not specifically the Ten Commandments (there is a clear difference between them). Psalm 119: the Laws, Precepts, Judgements, etc. given to Israel; not to those in Christ Jesus.

"How do I determine what is sin and what is not?" The Holy Spirit Who resides in my life instructs me in all things I need to know or be alerted to: of ALL of God's Laws, of where I slip up, of things just not quite right that can be regarded as sin ( John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 4:30). The Decalogue in & of itself falls far short of what God would require of me. In other words, I would rather be subservient & obedient to the Spirit than to the Letter of the Law. And when I fail Him, I am gently instructed & helped to learn & follow His Path.

"So when we say that the Decalogue, the 10 Commandments, are not for us today", I certainly don't mean the Truth contained therein, including all other Laws, whether Israel or Gentile-specific, but I refer to the purpose of the Decalogue, as a whole package of Laws for Israel that demanded obedience or punishment (including obedience to the 4th Commandment).

This type of Law has no bearing on those now IN CHRIST, who have been delivered from that Law of sin & death ( Romans 7:6; Romans 8:2). If there was no Holy Spirit to indwell the believer, then yes, we must grab onto & perform all the laws we can find in God's Word & hope for the best in the Judgement. But the believer's salvation is secure because it is all of God (His Great Plan), all of Jesus (His Great Sacrifice) and of His Spirit (His Great Ministry), Who will 'present us faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy'. My obedience & confidence rests only in the Person of the Godhead, enjoying the liberty of serving Him as He directs & not conforming to a set of rules that was prescribed to judgement & death.

Hi Bob , I believe that a covenant is usually sealed in some way , for the Jews God asked that the males be circumsized , for Christians ( the new covenant in Christ ) I believe that adults who have at least a basic understanding of the Truth that pertains to the Holy One of Israel and His Only Begotten Son , are required to be baptised by full immersion in water and I believe I can back that up in scripture . I am also happy to admit that it's up to God who is saved and there may be times when a person is unable to be baptized for various reasons that are out of their control . It's not for any of us humans to decide who is and who isn't saved but where there is clear instruction in the Bible I think we should follow it . I would never dare to say to anyone who hadn't been baptized , that they are not saved , they have the Bible the same as I do , they read the same Word , if someone doesn't believe after reading it , that they need to be baptized then that's up to them , it's not my place to tell them any different . For me personally , I couldn't rest untill I had been baptized , I believe that everything I had ever done , my entire life before my baptism , was gone , didn't exist , any sins that I commited before my baptism were gone , I felt like a new born baby , clean and new and truly alive , alive in Christ . Best moment of my life . If you know the Truth and have read the entire Bible , you do what the Spirit of Truth tells you to .