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Thank you, this is a subject I feel is important mainly for those who are here when it starts. If the last week of Daniel 9 is in the future, as taught the Church will be taken out and spared the tribulation coming with the beast, which sounds great. If this last week has been fulfilled in the past many will be looking for something that is not coming. How will it affect the faith of those who were not looking to be here? Those like me who are up in age may not even be here. we will be just waiting for resurrection.
God bless,
RLW
Hope your cat is doing better. The New fulfills the foreshadows of the Old. Just 4 and there are to many to count, 3 of the feasts were a foreshadowing that Jesus fulfilled down to the day and minute when He came, and 1 at Pentecost. There is a verse that stood out to me a long time ago that said to me the importance of the Old and the New. It is in the middle of parables and probably means something different, but it does to me.
Matthew 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
God bless,
RLW
I do know people who hold to the viewpoint I and Ronald have spoken about Daniel 9.
Let me state again, I believe that Daniel 9 tells of the first coming of Christ, not the second, and that Jesus is the Prince, Messiah, spoken of in Daniel 9:25 an d the 'prince that is to come' in verse 26 is the Roman Emperor and his army that destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. In Matthew 24:15, I believe that Jesus' reference to Daniel's prophecy was to the destruction of Jerusalem and Temple in 70 A.D. also. (this verse refers back to verses 1-2 began the discourse).
But I also think that Jesus was speaking of the last times in this discourse, as well in some verses.
As to what I have stated in the past, Steven, I must say that as I study on this topic more and more, my views have changed. I am in the process of learning and my understanding is developing. So, please offer me grace to in this. Let's instead speak about our understanding of the passages at hand and not pick apart one another's thinking. I would love to hear you tell us your understanding. I will respect your thinking even if I may disagree with it.
As to being premillennial dispensational or historic, preterist, post millennial, or amillennial. I lean more towards the amillennial viewpoint the more I study. I do have some preterist understanding of this topic of Daniel, but am not totally preterist, either. I don't think we necessarily need to stand fully in one view over another as we are in the process of learning.
I do believe that Jesus took the throne of David at the right hand of the Father after His ascension to heaven. He received all authority and dominion from the Father and is reigning as our King and Priest now in heaven. He reigns over both heaven and earth, as He is Lord of all creation. I believer He will come again in glory to resurrect everyone, judge everyone, defeat all of His enemies, and determine every person's eternal estate at that time.
A month ago I said I would like to try a exercise that would test or check our hermeneutics by going through the OT on into the NT.
I started it with the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants and I believe I left off where we identify the fulfillment.
The reason for this particular study was that some say God was done with Israel and his promises to restore Israel was made over to the Church.
There was dispute on Romans chapters 9,10, and 11.
Those studies would eventually end up in eschatology viewpoints.
I'm glad you labeled certain views you don't agree with dispensational and not I,
So by your definition I'm going to pull some of the dispensationist out of the closet.
First let me ask a question you have me confused on.
You said Daniel 9 is not an end time discussion how do you view Matthew 24:15?
Jesus goes through a discourse with his disciples on the end times and refers them to this. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Do you hold the view of Jesus being the Prince of the people destroyed the Sanctuary?
Your view of Daniels 70th week prophecy is very peculiar because you are Post trib. Did you know Post trib-ers use Daniel 9 as a spring board to the end times?
If so that's not the view you had when you supported Jimbob a few months ago.
You might want to read the ticket before getting on the train.
I've never heard anyone that holds to any rapture doctrine doesn't use Daniel 9's 70th week as the final week unless they say the abomination that makes desolate was done by Antiochus IV Epiphanes 200 years before Christ.
That doesn't work for your time-line and besides Jesus places it future towards the end time.
Can you explain?
Thanks in advance.
God bless
From your discussions with brother Ronald, I have tried to place Christ in that verse & read it as he shared. However, it just doesn't fit there given what is written before & after. As far as what was revealed to Daniel, the Messiah will be cut off (i.e. die). Daniel doesn't know anymore about Him. So everything after the death of the Messiah, the texts given must then refer to "the prince that shall come", the people of whom (the Romans) would come first to destroy Jerusalem & the Temple.
Now we're not told when that 'prince' would come, as well we don't have any record of any individual or power confirming (or, affirming) the covenant for seven years in this interim period. This could be the Covenant already in place that Anti-Christ assures Israel will come to force, or even raising his own covenant that aligns with the old giving it sanction. However he implements it, the sacrifices & oblations that have long ceased, he will reinstate, but mid-way in his rule, he will renege on it. Not just disallowing it, but he will desecrate the Temple with his own abominations. And the mention of 'abominations' in Daniel, have always applied to wicked acts & never to Christ (e.g. Daniel 11:31: ref to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, erecting a statue of Zeus in the Temple, and Daniel 12:11: again to the Anti-Christ, where the Jewish sacrifices are removed & the abomination set up). But Daniel wanted to know more ( Daniel 12:8,9), but all was sealed till revealed at the end.
If this was Jesus in v27, when did he forcefully remove the sacrificial system? The Jews continued to sacrifice after His death & resurrection.
Ezekiel 18:4.... the soul that sinneth, IT shall DIE ......
God bless you
As I said in my post to Ronald, I concur with his time chart, so I don't think I need to give a repeat of his and call it "my timechart". I do look forward to reading your thoughts on this.
Thanks for joining the discussion!
Ronald blessed me with the opportunity to pick up on a subject I started a month or so ago.
I didn't think you would be interested but I remember you said you was looking forward to reading it.
While we have you engaged can you offer your time chart for the 70th week as well using Daniel 9:24-27?
I hope others join in, this may turn out fruitful.
Looking forward to hearing your point of view.
God bless.
Part 2.
In Daniel 9:25. the Messiah the Prince should be translated Messiah the King. That is how its read in Hebrew.
Johns' baptism had nothing to do with him being king.
Here are other issues I have with your timeline.
Daniel 9:25 is the end of the 69th week.
According to you guys timeline, these are consecutive weeks.
So according to that,
Here is the beginning of the seventh week- Daniel 9:26. (And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off!)
Can you see right away there is an issue with that timeline you gave?
You guys put the beginning of the 70th week in your timeline at the baptism.
If you all want to be consistent according to this belief Daniel's 70 weeks is consecutive, according to vs 26 the 70th week starts off with the Messiah being cut off. See Daniel 9:26.
The end of the 69th week is the Messiah presented as king.
If Daniels 70th week Prophecy is consecutive the 70th week starts off with him cut off. (According to the way some have it)
Let's address Part 2 of you reply.
You said Stephen's death as the first Martyr 34-35 AD is 3.5 years after Jesus's crucifixion this would end the 70th week.
Let's go back to Daniel 9:26-27 and take it as it is written.
IM HIGHLIGHTING KEYS IN THE ORDER PRESENTED FOR LACK OF SPACE.
Daniel 9:26.....(and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary...);
So, after the 69th week on into the 70th week we have the Messiah cut off but also the destruction of the city and the sanctuary.
(According to anyone that would have these weeks consecutive)
According to your timeline, you have that 38 years later.
If these weeks are consecutive, you have to include this in the 70th week.
However, those 38 years is an interval no matter what view you take.
But you guys don't believe there's an interval at all.
It's getting late, We can continue. perhaps during the week or this weekend.
God bless.
no offense was taken, thank you for your kind words just the same.
Jonah 4:11
God does care for all His creatures.
Part 1.
Thanks for your timeline and I appreciate how you and I can present our view and keep it peacefully and yet have entirely different views.
I also have the start of Jesus ministry around the same time based off John 4:17-21.
I don't agree with Jesus being anointed by the Holy Spirit at his baptism.
Nowhere in Scripture do we find Him being the recipient of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. On the contrary, Jesus is the one who baptizes others with the Holy Spirit. John 1:33.
Jesus baptism was symbolic of His entrance into His public ministry into the OT priesthood TO FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS.
At about thirty years of age, He was ceremonially washed with water and then set apart for that ministry. This set Him apart to do the work for which He had been called to do.
This is the same way the Old Testament priests began their service. They had to be at least thirty years of age, they were ceremonially washed with water and then they were anointed with oil on their head.
Messiah means "anointed one". The promised deliverer of the Jewish nation.
John identified him as the Messiah, but he didn't make him the Messiah.
Jesus was the Messiah at birth.
Luke 2:10-11.
Luke 2:34-38.
Matthew 1:20-21.
Ronald you authenicate your view of the begining of the 70th wee started because Andrew told Simon they have found the Messiah, and Philip told Nathanael and the demons knew who he was and so on.
But many knew who he was at birth and as a child!
Here is just one example Matthew 2:1.
The key is when did Jesus present his self as king? Not only that he arranged it.
Matthew 21:2.
Any other time they tried to make them king he wouldn't allow it.
John 6:15.
Let's revisit Daniel 9.
See part 2.
Thanks for this clear explanation of how the 70th week was fulfilled in Jesus' time and how Daniel 9 foretold it would be. Even describing the 'people of the prince to come' that will leave Jerusalem desolate and the temple destroyed, which occurred after the 70th week in 70. A.D. by the Roman army.
I concur with your analysis. sometimes the simplest interpretation is the likely correct one (Occam's Razor). I do not think that Daniel 9 speaks of last times, but only to a future time within the time frame given without there being any break or interruption of the sequence given (70 weeks-490 years from the time that the decree went forth-457 B.C. - 33A.D. = 490 years). I do not believe, as the dispensationalists teach, that the prophetic clock stopped when the Jews rejected Jesus at the 69th week, only to start up again in the end times. I do not see this taught anywhere in Scripture. Thus, I do not think that Daniel 9 was prophecy for the time of Christ's second coming, rather, I believe it speaks to His first coming only.
If you pray that and believe that and confess with thine mouth and believe on thine heart that Jesus died on the cross and rose again thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:9-10
King James Version
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
I'm praying for the lord to prepare your heart, Leed. God Bless you always.
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
The Jews, God's chosen people killed Jesus for several reasons. They were blinded so that Jesus could be crucified and we could be saved.
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy
It was god's will for them to be blinded so we the gentiles could obtain salvation. It was god's plan before he created the world.
Revelation 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
As far as god's name. He has many different names in many different tongues. Jesus Christ is good enough for me. Once you receive Jesus Christ as your personal savior you will receive his spirit... the holy spirit into your heart or soul.
Lucifer is the god of this world. He has been given authority down here and his job is to kill, steal, and destroy. He is a liar and the father of lies and a murderer. God gives people a choice... Choose him which is the way, the truth, and the life and the only way to father Abba or you can choose the devil receive an unclean spirit and eternal damnation in the lake of fire. I choose New Jerusalem and eternity to bask in the glory of the only one true and beautiful and glorious god. In heaven you will feel the love of god's spirit radiating through you for eternity. You won't hunger, thirst, have any knowledge of sin. You will be glorified with Christ and become one with god in paradise. Everything will be made new including you. I would not study anything to do with freemasonry or secret societies or anything that the enemy's side does. It is a shame to even mention the things they do in secret.
In order to understand the verses you cite regarding the Nature of Salvation properly, we must understand that God created mankind with both a BODY and a SOUL. And that when we become BORN AGAIN, this happens in our SOUL. That is, God gives us a new Resurrected SOUL. And this SOUL is what cannot, in itself, sin ( 1 John 3:9) and will never die. Once God has performed this miracle in our life we have become a "new creature in Christ..." 2 Corinthians 5:17. But this Resurrected SOUL now resides in a BODY that has not yet undergone any change and still lusts after sin and is still subject to physical death. And although our personality is greatly changed in our attitude toward the Bible and hatred for sin in our life, we do still sin and will until God completes our salvation at the Last Day.
Our salvation will not be fully completed until the Last Day when we will receive our Resurrected Spiritual Body and we "shall be like Him" 1 John 3:2.
Your understanding that much of the Old Testament is a Shadow of the New Testament is absolutely correct. This is particularly true when we look at God's dealings with National Israel. Not only is the Old Testament dripping with the Gospel message in many many respects, but in God's dealings with National Israel He is also providing information about how God has and is dealing with the New Testament Churches.
Many many of the events recorded in the Bible about National Israel and Juda, as well as other historical events are actually Historical Parables. That is, they are historical events faithfully recorded as they actually occurred, but in the particulars of these events and in the specific words and phrases used, when we search it out allowing the Bible to be its own interpreter and its own dictionary, comparing scripture with scripture, we find a deeper spiritual message. And much of that message is related to the very days in which we are living.
"Christ spoke in parables and without a parable He did not speak" ( Mark 4, Matt 15). When we begin to understand this principle and apply it to our study of the Bible, so much of the Bible opens up with a CONSISTANCY and COHESIVNESS that we cannot not see otherwise. For example, the Books of Ruth and Esther are historical events that are dripping with aspects of the Gospel message. Jeremiah, Isaiah and the other Old Testament prophetic Books are dealing with Our Day as much, and sometimes even more, than they were dealing with National Israel and the time in which they were written.
It is not easy work to search out these things. But those who have understood and carefully applied this principle and / or have had the opportunity to listen to Bible teachers that have done their homework carefully and faithfully in this manner, have been blessed.
The bottom line is that The Bible Alone and in Its Entirety is God's Word of which God ALONE is the AUTHOR. The Bible is its own Interpreter and its own Dictionary.
Part 2
When Jesus first came it was for only the lost sheep of Israel the same for the prophecy of Dan. 9:25-27 Matt. 15:24. Jesus instructed the disciples/apostles not to go unto the Samaritans or Gentiles Matt. 10:5-7. He also told them to stay in Jerusalem and wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit Acts 1:4-5.
And we see they stayed in Jerusalem because they had not yet been told it was time to carry the gospel to the Gentiles and we see the confusion of it in Acts. This did not happen for another 3.5 years. We see in Acts 7 Stephen was in front of the high priest and the other leaders, the same ones who called for Jesus's crucifixion and what they said in Acts 7:54-57 (they cried out and stopped their ears) and killed Stephen. They fully rejected Jesus as the Messiah the Son of God.
Stephen's death as the first Martyr 34-35 AD is 3.5 years after Jesus's crucifixion this would end the 70th week. Jesus confirmed the covenant Himself for the first 3.5 years and Jesus through His apostles for the last 3.5 years.
Then the persecution by the Jews Acts 8:1-4 After this Philip the Evangelist was the first to go to Samaria, and when the apostles heard, Peter and John went to see Acts 8:14-25. Then Saul/Paul's conversion, Acts 9. Peter had his dream in Acts 10 and the mystery of the gospel goes to the Gentiles.
I hope this all though brief will give enough to show my understanding and enough you can study it if you want. Thank you again for having this peaceful and respectful discussion on this important subject.
God bless,
RLW
Thank you, brother, for this discussion. I understand the 7-year tribulation rapture doctrine hinges on the prince in Dan. 9:26 and the he in vs. 27 as being the beast/antichrist at the end times. This is in brief my understanding of the 70th week and what Scripture says to me on this very important subject.
Dan. 9:25 says 69 weeks until the Messiah the Prince. Jesus was baptized and anointed by the Holy Spirit; the meaning of Messiah is the Anointed One. Vs. 27 "And he shall confirm the covenant" Isaiah 42:6 "with many" Matt. 20:28 Matt. 26:28 Mark 14:24, "for one week:"
Jesus came and was baptized and anointed by the Holy Spirit and John confirmed this John 1:34 The demons knew who He was Mark 3:11 and Andrew told Simon they have found the Messiah, and Philip told Nathanael, John 1:41,45 Jesus said this Luke 4:17-21.
In Luke 3:1-2 we see the time when John was called by God. If we look at history, Tiberius Ceasar, his 15th year would be 26-27 AD. It is considered Jesus was baptized in late summer or early fall. Jesus attended 3 Passovers and was crucified on the fourth in 30-31 AD. John 2:13, John 5:1 John 6:4 John 19:14.
There is a discussion on John 5:1 whether it is a Passover, but most accept it is. The old manuscripts have "the" in front of the feast leading scholars to conclude that it was probably the Passover feast.
The first Passover would be in 27-28 AD and His crucifixion in 30-31 AD. This would make Jesus's ministry 3.5 years, halfway through the 70th week.
"and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" That is what Jesus's death did. Heb. 10 and when the judgment came in 70 AD the physical act of sacrificing ceased caused by their rejection of Him and crucifying Him.
See part 2
I agree that Satan is at work in humanity and in the earthly realm to deceive, kill, and bring to destruction anyone he can. But I do not believe that he has any power that has not been allowed him by God. God could have destroyed him at anytime since his rebellion prior to creating humanity. But God has a wise purpose for allowing Satan to continue do harm to humanity and the earth.
Matthew 28:18, Jesus' words, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."
Ps. 110:1 says of the Messiah, "Sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool." (also referred to in Matt.22:44; Acts 2:34)
Mark 14:62, Jesus states this when asked if He is the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? "I am. And ye shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven." At this, the high priest roe his clothes and accused Jesus of blasphemy.
Eph. 1:19-21 "And What is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this worl, but also in that which is to come."
Leed, these verses (and many others) tell me that Jesus is the Sovereign Ruler of all heaven and earth. He is on His heavenly throne with all power and authority over all this has been created. He will reign until all enemies are put under His feet (vanquished, defeated, and judged). Then Jesus will hand His eternal kingdom and reign over to the Father. ( 1Cor. 15:24-28).
Satan, though named as the 'god of this world' does not control it, God does,