All Discussion PAGE 402

Adam,

I would add one other thing.

The process of becoming Born Again is absolutely an instantaneous process of which God is entirely in control. It is a true miracle as God replaces or changes (we can't understand the mechanics) our spiritual dead soul (i.e. our stony heart) with a new resurrected soul. (Read Ezekiel 36:26,27). This can occur even before we are born (John the Baptist) or in the last moments of our life (thief on the cross) or any time in between, but always on God's time table, not ours.

When we do become Born Again there will very quickly be a change in our personality, in that our new Resurrected Soul is going to have a real problem with our sin infected body that still lusts after sin. And we will find in our life a growing desire to know and do God's will and turn away from sin. This is called Growing in Grace.

This is guaranteed to occur with every one of God's elect at some point in their life.

Read the account of the salvation of the Ninevites in Jonah where God saved 120,000 of them.

Jema:

Your comment sums up antichrist.

As David0921 said, there is only two kingdoms on earth, the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan.

The Kingdom of God of God is the Spirit of TRUTH, LIFE and LIGHT: CHRIST.

The opposite of Christ is antichrist.

The kingdom of Satan, the spirit of deception, death, and darkness.

It's not ONE antichrist in that kingdom, it begins with ALL men.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist; wherefore you have heard that it should COME, and even NOW already is it in the world.

Most Christians confess that Christ came the first time in the flesh, FEW confess that he came the second time as the LIFE in the body of man.

Christ is still on the earth in the FLESH, in YOU his body; YOU, sinful flesh DIED on the cross, ONLY Christ arose to indwell YOU, his flesh.

John 16:8 And when he (the SPIRIT of Christ) is COME (Christ second coming as the Holy Ghost) HE (Christ) will reprove the WORLD OF SIN (unbelief).

Colossians 1:27 ..... this mystery .... Christ in you ...... a NEW CREATION ......

God bless you

I absolutely love Psalm 18! Such a powerful, promising, and encouraging Psalm!

Jema,

We love cats as well. They are one of

many great comforts and blessings that God in His Mercy provides to mankind.

Glad to hear that CJ is doing well.

Adam,

What you are suggesting is a gospel of Grace plus works. And God warns against that very strongly in Galatians and Romans and in many other passages. The True Gospel is a gospel of Grace Alone. Once God has "saved", us our good works are the RESULT of having become Born Again. Our good works are NEVER THE CAUSE nor the REASON for our salvation.

2 Cor 5:17 is speaking about the very nature of salvation and that conclusion is supported throughout the Bible.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Both of these passages are absolutely speaking about being Born Again in our Soul existence which is every bit a part of us as our Body. And that is what happens to every True Believer when God applies His salvation to their life.

Hi Ronald.

Concerning part 1 of your reply.

Rome destroyed the city.

The prince that shall come will rise out of the Romans empire. This empire was never overthrown.

I showed the connection between ch 2 and ch 7 and 9. on into Revelation.

In most of these passages they use the exact same terms and description.

You said you see of Matt. 23:37-38 is a consummation of Dan. 9:27.

But in Matthew 24:14-15 Jesus place Daniel 9:27 towards the end times!

( And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Concerning Daniel 11:31. That was Antiochus Epiphanes, this happened around 170 BC,

However, Jesus points this to a end time event.

Ronald if you will, refresh my memory of your view on the end times.

Where and when is the Millennial Kingdom?

Are we in it or is it future?

If future, can you give me your view chronologically?

This will help me understand where you are coming from.

God bless.

Hi Jema.

Thanks for replying.

You said your faith is in Christ's sacrifice for your sin's. and that's where it should be.

Abram believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; Romans 4:20.

In Genesis 15:6-18 God made an unconditional promise to Abraham and performed it alone.

The ritual that constitutes the covenant where they cut these animals in half and walk between them together and if one renege on the covenant what happened to the animals would happen to that person.

God cannot lie so he was protecting Abraham when he entered the covenant alone.

Issac was Abraham's heir and Abraham knew that God keeps his promises and he knew that God would have to raise him from the dead to keep his promises.

God is Love but he is also a righteous judge. There is no where in scripture it says God saves us by his love. It says God so loved the world He provided us a savior and that savior was his Son. John 3:16.

The bible teaches us the wages of sin is death and the gift of God through Christ is eternal life. Romans 6:20-23.

The lost sinner's heart is energized by the ( Everlasting evil Spirit of this unrepentant world that is being held back by restraint of the Holyspirit.

I believe in hell and those who go there will be tormented.

Weeping and gnashing of teeth. Unquenchable fire.

There would have to be an awareness of pain and agony to Weep and Nash teeth.

And "Unquenchable fire" is unnecessary if it's unquenchable for no one.

Matthew 22:13

Psalm 112:10.

The bible describes hell as a place of torment.

You have to be awake to be tormented.

God bless.

Hi Adam.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. This speaks on a person present condition once he heareth Christ word, and believeth on him that sent him,

To be able to hear the word is a condition.

This is the blood tipped ear mentioned in scripture and also what's meant in John 10:27-28.

These verses along with many of what have been shared by others suggest that you are saved now not later.

However, just say if we are wrong, how do we stand in the day of judgement?

God is a righteous Judge and requires perfection. No one can present that!

If we're to be judged, what sins is he going to pardon?

How many times can we get away with sinning before we're condemned?

What role did the cross play in our salvation?

Why didn't he just stick with the old sacrificial systems if the blood of Christ couldn't take away sins?

These are valid questions if we are to be judged with the dead.

Jema,

The anti-Christ is Satan himself. Throughout history many have tried to identify the anti-Christ as some tyrant or other dastardly human being. But none of that fits when we understand that there are only two kingdoms that God is primarily concerned about. These two kingdoms are the Kingdom of Christ and the kingdom of Satan. And the warfare that exists between these two kingdoms is a Spiritual warfare. It is not national, political or social.

All of mankind throughout history ultimately belongs to one of those two kingdoms.

And much of the language that God uses in speaking about those two kingdoms is parabolic in nature.

We must remember:

Mark 4:9-13 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Mark 4:33,34 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Psalms 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

David....

I perceive you have a desire & zeal for God, but not according to a true knowledge. Rom 10:2; I would like to discuss this futher with you if you like, but on one condition, every statement be back up with the Holy Scriptures & sound reasoning. Pro 30:6 This way, Truth alone may be exalted, for Truth is not a subject here, but a Person, personalified in Christ.

in love & truth

Frankie J

Jema,

We have to make a distinction between our physical body and our soul. Both are very, very real. And together make up who we are. Before God applies his salvation to our life, we are spiritually dead and subject to eternal death in body and soul. When God applies salvation to our life, i.e. when we are Born Again in our soul. God gives us a new resurrected soul in which we have eternal life. Our Resurrected soul will never die.

But nothing has happened to our body yet. Our body is still lusting after sin. And is still Subject to physical death, just like the body of an unsaved person. So when a believer dies physically, their soul goes to live with Christ in heaven, because that is the part of them that has been "saved". And their body goes into the grave and decays just like any unsaved person's body. But at the Last Day, Christ returns with all of the believers that are with him in heaven in their soul existence, and the bodies of all believers are resurrected alt, a glorified spiritual body, and reunited with their resurrected soul to form a complete personality, which will live and reign with Christ in the new heaven and new earth eternally. Or, if we have not already died physically when He returns, our body of flesh and bone is changed, in the twinkle of an eye, into a glorified spiritual body.

Our salvation is only partially complete at the time we have become Born Again. Our salvation is completed when we receive our glorified spiritual body at the Last Day.

Our finite minds cannot grasp the full extent of the glory and wonder of God's Salvation plan nor its mechanics. But we read in the Bible what God has revealed to us and we accept it in faith.

Regarding the resurrection of the unsaved, that will also occur at the Last Day but it is not a resurrection to life or consciousness existence. That must be discussed in the context of God's overall Judgment process which is complex and I'm not prepared to address that at this time.

Hi Adam,

If you think you already have the answers, I don't see it as appropriate to test folks. It can spread doubt. What you need is some good dispensational teaching. The belief originated from the understanding of the New Testament Pauline soteriological doctrine as a whole.

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory" ( Ephesians 1:13-14). Being sealed is the same as being saved.

Judgment and salvation are the opposite. There are three judgments in the New Testament: sheep and goats ( Matthew 25), the judgment seat of Christ ( 1st Corinthians 3), and the great white throne judgment ( Revelation 20). Only one of those will a Christian experience-the judgment seat of Christ. The other two are for the unsaved. We are not immediately judged after we die. The judgment seat of Christ occurs after the rapture so that the works of the flesh are able to be viewed. Some people do believe that we are judged immediately after we die (e.g. amillennialists).

I must give God the glory and the thanks . I've just got a fourteen year old cat , five weeks ago . His name is CJ and he's been poorly for a few days and had become worse today . I prayed to God and asked Him to restore CJ 's health and happiness . He doesn't like to be handled and doesn't know me that we'll yet , I felt compelled to get hold of him and try to look at his mouth , so after a slight struggle I did just that . He had something , I don't know what , small hanging from inside his mouth , out of and over his bottom lip . I gently removed it and saw that it had probably been stuck in his bottom gum , causing his mouth to bleed and stopping him from eating . He's eating fine now , only chews on his right side of his mouth but at least he is eating and whatever it was I managed to get it out of his mouth . I must thank my God . Many people believe that God thinks less of animals than He does of people , I don't know if that's true or not , I think He may love them somewhat as He made them and made them so beautiful . I thank Him for taking pity upon me and my husband in our distress for our cat and for taking pity on CJ and helping me to help him . Thanks to God in Heaven for His tender mercies to us all .

Can I ask a question of everyone ? I've heard a few people say that the anti-Christ will appear and proclaim himself that he is Christ , could this not mean that some one will present themselves as a saviour , not necessarily as Jesus Christ but as an inventor of something , or a scientist or a discoverer of a medical breakthrough ? Does anyone think that's possible ? There are so many evil things going on in science these days , people trying desperately to prove that we humans are the peak of evolution and that we can do anything that any God can do .

Thank you David. I read these 3 verses. None indicate that people are saved immediately on earth the moment they decide to follow Jesus.

The first reference 2 cor 5:17- new creature isn't the same as salvation. Being changed isn't salvation. It is part of the process of following Jesus. It also doesn't indicate the timing of the change to the new creature. It doesn't say when one responds to an altar call after hitting rock bottom from a violent alcoholic addiction, for example, that he person is immediately cured because he's now a new creature. If this was the case, I don't think Paul would have written so many letters to churches (believing Christians) trying to encourage them to stay on course, run the race, obey God, and avoid sin. This doesn't mean someone is trying to earn salvation as some like to attack good behavior while condoning bad behavior, but it means the action and good deeds is fruit of a genuine walk with Jesus. I think many verses support that this is a process and not instant. God bless.

Yes S Spenser ! :) There will be sacrifices in God's Kingdom , this is made very clear in Ezekiel . I think that this is because there will be sinful humans living on earth during Christ's one thousand years , humans will be born into this Kingdom and won't have ever known anything other than life in it . Where there is sinful flesh there is the need for sacrifice , those humans will not have the same faith in Christ as we do because they will see him and us , in our changed bodies , we will be the normal to them , whereas we have not seen Christ as yet and we walk by faith not by sight and it is our faith that will be rewarded . We chose to believe and obey , they won't make that choice because they will see him and , eventually Christ will be rejected by some of them and they will rebel . They will be destroyed in the lake of fire with the devil and the beast and the false prophet . Those humans that lived and died during the one thousand years will be ressurected and judged and then comes the end , when God will be all in all . Ezekiel is a hard book for me still but those chapters that tell us of the New Temple and the Prince , they are awesome ! They make my spine tingle :) .

I think those are metaphors.

1 Cor 15:18,20 talk about "sleep" which I believe refers to those who died and are awaiting Christ's return.

Hi Pierre, thank you for that mention. I'm not a thief on a cross though, nor is anyone else. I don't know of any verse saying that this one example is a template and applies to everyone else universally even if you have to ignore other scripture. Also, it was only one of the thieves He said that to, and He didn't say He sad salvation or was saved or would go to heaven, but be in "paradise" which could be a different place. The guy also died, where as we are alive, but people are somehow saying that means they're saved now, even though they're still alive and didn't directly talk to Jesus.

Jesus is big enough to where He can make special circumstances and cases to help someone. It seems like a disproportionate amount of instruction is extrapolated from this example while also diminishing verses like 1 Peter 1:5 that say salvation will be revealed later in the last time. Both can't be true, so one is probably correct and the other is probably incorrect. Currently there are more verses saying that we will receive salvation in the future after judgment instead of before. But I still want to uncover 100% of all of them that people use to support their beliefs so we can all form our beliefs based on God's truth and sort that from man-made beliefs. God bless.

James 1:15 illustrates the process of sin leading eventually to death. Thus; Adam began to die in all ways once he sinned; spiritually immediately as Ezekiel 18:20 indicates it affects the soul and the death in the body continues until eventually we return back to the dust we came from. Hence; there was immediate estrangement from God when Adam and Eve hid; and God pronounced the resulting curse in childbirth; tilling the earth is sweat with thistles and thorns; etc.

We must also understand that there are those predestined to be in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:3-6). The opposite is true for the unregenerate as seen in Revelation 17:8. Christ's death was therefore part of a plan from before Creation where all those would hear His voice who were His sheep ( John 10:27). We must remember that His death was effective from what happened in time and space 2000 years ago. It also is retroactive; as it were in order to allow those who were of old to eventually in time and space have access to heaven (see Romans 6:9). Therefore; at the Rapture ( 1 Thess. 4:15) shall involve the Resurrection of all souls of deceased saints; followed by bodily ascension of those alive and remaining. There are some verses which seem to indicate O.T. saints may arise later on in say the Midpoint of the Tribulation or near the end; there is some debate on that question. Some already apparently were resurrected ( Matt. 27:52-56). This would have been a gleaning of the firstfruits; so to speak.

My point here is predestination and the fact that God initiates repentance ( Acts 11:18); etc. There is such a thing as godly repentance and worldly ( 2 Cor. 7:10); illustrated by that of Peter and Judas Iscariot. Genuine repentance brings life and brings sorrow at offending a Holy God; worldly sorrow only is interested in consequences of our actions; and in Judas' case he only recognized Christ as having "innocent blood"; not as God's Son to be worshipped.

Great posts , thankyou .

Hi Laundry, of those verses shared I don't see any saying anything about immediate salvation on earth before judgment. God bless.

Amen , I have , more than once , been in what some might call bad company . I once worked in a factory full of mostly men . When I first walked in I was overwhelmed by the feeling that I was the only one alive and that they were all dead . This has happened to me a few times , the feeling that I'm talking to a dead person , it's quite distressing . All we can do is show love and kindness and gentleness and generosity . Remember , we were all in that state once , remember how miserable and bewildered you used to be ? That's how they feel now . We must show them , the same kindness that God shows us . God bless you .

Hi Frankie J , please forgive me , I didn't give your reply to me the proper attention , my cat CJ has been very poorly today and he's distracted me . Why do pets always get sick on a weekend ? Anyhoo , he's improved slightly so I'm calmer . God actually spoke to Abraham more than once , we can read about that in Genesis , it's possible that He spoke to Abraham on other occasions that we don't know about . I'm sure that Abraham would have told his family and his servants all that they needed to know about their Heavenly Father . You are correct God speaks to us today , through His Word in the Bible and through His Holy Spirit . I'm still learning things from the Bible even though I've been reading it regularly for a few decades , God's Word is alive , in the Bible and in the hearts and minds of all who learn from it , all who seek Him out ,starting with the Bible . Would God preserve His Word through thousands of years for no purpose ? What made you want to learn about God ? Why did you start to read the Bible ? We could all tell an interesting story about how we came to the Truth . God works in our hearts and minds for sure , I don't disagree with anyone on that point , for beginners , those who know nothing and just start out being curious , the Bible should be their first port of call . It's still revealing knew things to me every time I read it , I'm addicted to it I think :) . Many times I've been prompted to do or say something , out if the blue , who does this prompting ? Maybe my own subconscious ? Maybe some thing else ? God lives , Christ lives and they work in us and for us , through others and to others through us . God is everywhere , His Glory surrounds us , we just need to open our eyes and ears and hearts and minds , God is love and love is everywhere . The love that God has for all His creation must be in us , Christ is the epitome of God's love , Christ must live in our hearts and we must reveal his love to others . We live in Christ .

First off; we have verses such as 1 John 1:8-10 which makes it pretty clear that none of us are without sin. That would be in reference to the old man and body which still have the capability or potential of sin; much like Adam did before he fell in Eden.

We need to differentiate between the inner man; or our hearts and our actions; which express what is going on within us. It is much like a disease which may be present before anyone can diagnose it. The act of sin is a process that starts with allowing our minds to consider something ungodly; and as believers that often is associated with thoughts from Satan or his minions influencing us (such as in Matthew 16:23). In that case we see how what would seem like the best humanitarian approach to a close friend protecting another was against God's greater purposes; which may in Peter's logic have seemed like righteous indignation. Instead; it betrayed his own blindness toward what Christ had repeatedly predicted and was being ignorant of what the Spirit had recently revealed to him about Christ being Lord and Savior. Weaknesses can therefore be either used for God's glory ( 2 Corinthians 12:10) as stated by Paul; or something that can be a repeated snare; as seen by Peter's boasting that he would even die for Christ ( John 13:37). This illustrates once again how we must never lean to our own understanding or strength in boasting.

Sanctification therefore continually transforms us as we mature in the faith. We are operating in forgiveness for all sins; past present and future IF truly saved. That is crucial for when we do sin we must ask forgiveness ( 1 John 2;1-2); and be restored; reclaiming our blood bought standing. If there is a lifestyle of sin which would mean deliberate repeated actions without any remorse it is evidence that there is no contention between the Spirit and flesh ( Gal. 5:17) and salvation can be questioned. Restoration is only possible if we are truly children of God.

Adam there is a verse saying while we were yet sinners Christ died for us Romans 5:6....So before we were born Christ has already died for us....And i was found of them that sought me NOT And made manifest unto them that asked not after me.....k lemme go

Adam the 2 thieves were saved that very day.....This day you will be with me in paradise....Alex

Brother Adam:

What is man SAVED from?

The wages of SIN is DEATH.

What is SIN?

Psalms 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Hebrews 10:16 And this is the covenant I will make with them, after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my LAWS in their hearts, and in their minds I will write them:

Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

So what is the SIN that results in death.

James 2:7 Do they not blaspheme thy Holy NAME by which ye are called?

Revelation 13:6 And he open his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme HIS NAME ....

John 16:8 And when HE (the Holy Ghost) is COME, he (the Holy Ghost) will reprove the world of SIN ....

So what is SIN that leads to death? ....blasphemy of the Holy Ghost by whose NAME ye are CALLED.

Acts 2:38 .....REPENT (of your beliefs) and be baptised in the NAME of Jesus ......

John 16:9 Of SIN because the BELIEVE not on me (the promised SEED of God), the ROD that CAUSES man to do the WILL of God.

Man does't BELIEVE that Christ came as SINFUL FLESH (you and I and all creation): and DIED on the cross.

Three days later Christ ONLY arose; and all creation were joint heirs with Christ's resurrection, all creation bears the NAME of Christ, because they were made ONE with Christ, blaspheming that name leads to DEATH.

The whole world is DEAD in sin (UNBELIEF).

God bless you

7 months ago i prayed for a 32 year old man with special needs name De'Angelo. he was looking for a new job he would like and be off on weekends and holidays. everyone been praying he would get a new job he wants and likes. it's been 7 months and a few months ago De'Angelo got terminated from his old job for no reason. not only that but his ex supervisor was very rude to him and did him wrong. never helped him. never cared about him. i'm asking God to heal De'Angelo from this incident and that he gets a new job that he wants and likes. i'm so sorry what happened to him. he should have been treated better. De'Angelo has lost 2 jobs in the past few years.

Adam,

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Galatians 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Then what is 1st Corinthians Ch 15 V 12-28 all about ? If we are in Christ we don't die , we sleep in him until he returns and ressurects us . Sinners die in their sin ,we live in Christ always .