All Discussion PAGE 408

The WAR has been won; individual battles are in our lives to determine our loyalties; as well as ensure rewards for faithful service.

Jesus is our advocate; and able to intercede to the Father on our behalf so that our prayers ultimately will be effectively in sync with His will for us and be answered accordingly. We are also in prayer as warriors ( Ephesians 6); as others are going through like tempations and trials ( 1 Peter 5:9). That is something needing to be emphasized; as a runner trains through exercise; we need to be vigilant in prayer for others as it helps to strengthen us as well as get our mind off our own troubles.

To effectively fight we need to actively resist sin; and check ourselves frequently. Any legal access by sin exposes a weak spot in our armor which the enemy is; no doubt looking forward to taking advantage of.

The truth is; as I see it there are few believers who take Satan seriously enough. We only have victory through Christ to effectively fight through the sword of the Spirit. As the other comment suggested this is hostile territory; another concept it seems few seem to grasp today. Remember though if you are being assaulted; it is because you are a threat to the powers of darkness; which I would say few believers are when it is easy to distract them with the endless sources of entertainment today.

It is Agape love; which gives you the strength; joy and victory over an enemy that seeks to steal; kill and destroy.

I call the enemy an "equal opportunity destroyer." He will use any means necessary; our own fears; other people; circumstances; ailments; etc. to try to stop others from hearing the Good News. He cannot stop the Lord's plans ultimately; and cannot take our rewards either unless we forfeit it ourselves ( Revelation 3:11).

Let us be as the Philadelphia church which has "little strength" but endures until He comes; and is able to enter through the open door at the Rapture.

Agape; Rich P

I fully agree brother S. Spencer with what you've presented with very little else that I could add. There are too many Christians who are unprepared for that 'spiritual' battle with the enemy of our souls. The battle that Jesus won for us was the ransom price, as required by the Father, that He paid on our behalf. Once we recognized that, believed it to be true & complete, & turned from our sin to a loving Redeemer, the battle for our souls was won.

Now if only our Enemy would surrender & leave all God's children alone, to walk in full joy & victory. But he doesn't & desires to make havoc of our lives, to doubt Christ, to test God's Love with sin, to tamper with worldly offerings, thus making us fit for God's punishment, even loss of physical life. Nothing would make Satan happier than to show to the world (which he always does), that the Power of Christ & His Sacrifice was frail, fictitious, & fanciful - that these Christians are simply powerless mindless zombies duped because of some emotive & mental imbalance. But Jesus gave us His Spirit giving us power from on high to live the life that cost the Son of God His Life that we might have victory over temptation, sin & the devil. That Ephesians 6 spiritual armor hasn't been created by us; it is given to us by the Holy Spirit in residence to all who belong to Christ. Whether we choose to use it against the enemy or not, is left up to us. And all those who belong to Jesus will want to use the armor that they're clothed with, not wanting to give the enemy any foothold to weaken their love for the Lord. Thank you again, brother.

True Christ vs. Imaginary (further examination of confessors vs. possessors)

The parable of the wheat and the tares should be alarming to everyone; and necessary instruction. ( Matt. 13:24-30). It is said that the wheat and tares are indistinguishable from one another before they are fully ripened. It appears from this parable that God has His purposes for these two groups to remain until the end of the age. Most probably; this is testing for those who ARE true believers to ensure that they won't fall for the temptations of this world as well as false or compromised doctines as well as a lifestyle of sin. Again; our society in general doesn't seem to be finding too many newcomers to churches because of it is a novel practice; or the world is being turned upside down ( Acts 17:6) which were characteristic of the church in Apostolic times.

However; the "damnable heresies" ( 2 Peter 2:1) are increasing along with 1 Timothy 4:1-2; etc. are invading former solid denominations so that a person can have a sense of respectability and pride in church attendance that tells them what they want to hear. Part of this; of course is the result of decades of permissive society and decline of morals; both within and without the church walls; I have stated before no doubt that the destruction of marriages is what I consider to be the primary initial cause especially post World War 2 of what we see today.

A primary example here is how people look at 1 John 2:1-2 on confession of sin and forgiveness. While it is true that Christ's death took care of all sin; past and future; we still have to confess sin; and if someone has the Holy Spirit in them they cannot be content with sin ( Galatians 5:17). a LIFESTYLE of sin such as continual adultery; theft; fornication; and other actions means that ultimately we don't trust God as to His warnings such as in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 as to reaping what we sow; and don't trust Him to be in the driver's seat in our lives and our souls.

Hi GiGi,

Thank you we are very close in our understanding, some of the prophecies I believe may have a two-fold fulfillment, but I do not see the 70-week have a future fulfillment. The way Gabriel gave this to Daniel I understand this prophecy as a renewed probationary period for Jerusalem and the Jewish people after the seventy years of the Babylonian exile, so God is giving them 490 years to straighten up and it was seventy consecutive weeks with no gap.

The thought that the abomination the antichrist does with defiling the temple with an idol like Antiochus Epiphanes did in 160's B.C. caused the desolation. The warning Jesus gave when they see the abomination of desolation flea Judea in my understanding what happened in 67-70 AD was a second fulfillment of what we see in parts of Dan. 8 and 11 it has been a while since I have studied those.

The abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel in Matt. 24: and Mark 13:14 Jesus said when they see this happen to flea Judea into the mountains. This is said to be when the antichrist defiles the temple and breaks the covenant in the middle of the week/7 years and the great tribulation begins. The abomination done by the antichrist will cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease.

If we look at Dan. 9:27 the way it is worded it is not the one who does the abomination that makes it desolate like in Daniel 11 and 12 the abomination that makes desolate. In Dan. 9:27 it is written like a penalty they were charged with, "for the overspreading of abominations" and the sentence given is "he will make it desolate" and I believe this he is Jesus, Matt. 23:32-39.

The same way God used Babylon to destroy Jerusalem He used Rome, the people of the prince maybe Tiitus because he did not want to destroy the temple.

Sorry, I got wordy.

God bless,

RLW

S.Spencer

I think you are correct on this. The people of the prince that is to come was (most likely) the Romans who surrounded Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and left it desolate, as Jesus prophesied in Mt. 23:38.

Hi S Spencer,

Didn't say anything about the people of the prince. Forgive me if I get this wrong; the people of the prince that shall come. "of the" connects the people and the prince so they were there at the same time since the people (the Roman army) was the one who destroyed the city and the temple.

How can "he" who is said to be the antichrist in verse 27 refer to the "prince" in verse 26 unless the antichrist was back in 70 AD.

I probably messed that up. I do not know how that is understood or explained.

God bless,

RLW

Christ: Real and imaginary

Previously; the concept has been introduced as to evidence of good or bad fruit as indicators of true or false salvation in earlier posts. The idea of self; somehow being able to adequately perform the behaviors such as illustrated in the Beatitudes on the Sermon on the Mount (i.e. be a peacemaker; meek; etc) basically demonstrates humanism in some form. I also mentioned the idea of "decisional regeneration". Often; there isn't much thought once we have "fire insurance" as it were; of such verses as 2 Corinthians 13:5 in testing ourselves to see if we are; indeed in the faith. Iron sharpening iron ( Prov. 27:17) is a way that God often uses to chastise us; which He does with all who are truly in the faith. We also should examine carefully the entire message of scripture; in this case the Beatitudes. Here it DEFINES who the meek are; those who are "despitefully used; wrongfully accused and otherwise abused" (my own rhyme giving the gist of the scripture). In the flesh we may put up with this; but expect someone to pity us; unlike what Jesus went through in Isaiah 53. To die for a friend is one thing; but for enemies is something else ( Romans 5:7-8).

The opposite also holds true; people somehow read the Gospels and think that Christ was all about bringing people together; peace and harmony. The unregenerate mind glosses over Matthew 10:34; 10:36; and the 10 times they tried to kill Jesus by various methods such as stoning and throwing him off a cliff BEFORE the cross. The last case was when Lazarus was raised from the dead when he along with Christ were in the final failed attempt at assassination. The world of course has trouble understanding the need for a bloody cross; of the fact that ALL of us are guilty for His death (at least the elect). Ultimately; to believe Christ is God (part of a triune God) has to be given by God ( Matt. 16:17).

Without God we can do nothing ( John 15:5). See also Hebrews 11:6.

Ronald

I agree The word confirm does not mean make, it shows us the covenant already existed.

However that fits the antichrist and his mission. Anti here means "instead of" and it can also mean against.

The Jews is still looking for their Messiah till this day and that's the primary role of the Antichrist.

Jesus hints at this in John 5:43.

So let's parallel the notion with other scriptures concerning him.

2 Thessalonians 2:4

"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Revelation 13:8-12.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If any man have an ear, let him hear.

He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

These verses along with Daniel 9 emphasizes deception by the Antichrist.

Goodnight brother.

Hi Ronald.

One other note I would like to mention.

The passage says; "AND THE PEOPLE" of the prince that shall come SHALL DESTROY THE CITY AND THE SANCTUARY;"

If that's Jesus then the Romans was his people!

Blessings Brother.

Hello Ronald,

I too have studied this chapter of Daniel more in the past few months, and I agree with you, that the Prince that is to come is Jesus, He appears in the beginning of the 70th week which began when He began His public ministry after HIs baptism. In the middle of the 70th week (after 3.5 years) the Messiah is cut off. But before His death He confirms the everlasting covenant made between Himself and the Father concerning salvation with many (thinking the last supper where Jesus introduced the new covenant made with His body and blood as the final sacrifice). This covenant is for all peoples not just the Jews. And for 3.5 eyars after His resurrection and ascension the apostles preached the gospel to the Jews, then they turned to the Gentiles. So 3.5 years - or 1 week in Daniel's vision. I do believe that the 70th week was completed in Jesus life and that the desolation of abomination was the utter destruction of Jerusalem and Judaism in 70 A.D. However, we can also consider if Daniel's prophecies may have , in part, double fulfillment - in the 1st century and in the last times.

I understand that you may not hold all of this viewpoint I have presented. It was good to read your query here about another interpretation of Daniel's prophecy other than the dispensational premillennial position presented by Chris and Spencer and others on this forum.

Thanks for presented another perspective.

Hi Ronald.

Thanks for your reply.

I have to disagree with you here.

I won't have time to get to far into it tonight and would actually like to visit this again towards the end of this series I started a couple of months ago.

But I will look at one aspect of your questions.

Your question concerning Daniel 9:27.

He shall confirm the covenant with many", COULD HE IN THIS VERSE FIT JESUS?

Let's look at that passage along with verse 26 and read it straight through.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: Pause.

Now here's another player mentioned midway through verse 26 and the focus doesn't come off him throughout vs 27.

Let's continue.

AND THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT "SHALL COME" shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. AND HE SHALL CONFIRM THE COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, AND FOR THE OVERSPREADING OF ABOMINATIONS "HE SHALL MAKE IT DESOLATE, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. .

This is clearly the prince that shall come.

If it was Jesus confirming the covenant then it would be Jesus that makes the overspreading of abominations that makes it desolate.

Besides it's Jesus that points to this event as being future in Matthews

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, SPOKEN OF BY DANIEL THE PROPHET, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Matthew 24:15

God bless.

Repent yes, be baptised of spirit yes, not of water.

Because Jesus became the Law, by fulfilling the Law of Moses (Jesus' Law = His Body; Moses' Law = Animals) we have to maintain body and dietary requirements of the Law. When people ignore the body and dietary requirements, they yield to sin. There is a false teaching that says we are covered by Grace. Further teaching is that since there is Grace, we do not have to obey. Obedience is always better than sacrifice and will always be. The Lord will never change, and His Word will always stand. Some try to justify their sins by trying to apply Grace; however, the wages of sin is death. Receiving Jesus is fully accepting Calvary, the Burial and Resurrection of our Savior: Jesus was obedient unto death, and we must learn to do the same. Dying to self is necessary to live the Holy lives the Father God desires from us.

Hey brother S Spencer,

I know this has been discussed before and we have different understandings, but just have a couple of thoughts to consider, I will not go over all this prophecy just the first of 9:27.

If I am correct, it is thought the 69th week ended when Jesus' ride into Jerusalem fulfilling Zech. 9:9. Dan. 9:26 says 69 weeks unto the Messiah, should we look over the 3.5 years from when Jesus was baptized and anointed with the Holy Spirit? Look at the multitude that met Him when He rode in, they knew who He was, He came for the lost sheep of Israel.

The antichrist will make a covenant with Israel. We go to Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: So here we have the last week/7 years and he is said to be the antichrist.

"He shall confirm the covenant with many", could he in this verse fit Jesus? Psalms 105:8-11 Isaiah 42:6 Isaiah 49:8 Isaiah 49:6 Romans 15:8 Galatians 3:17 Hebrews 13:20 I could list many more. The word confirm does not mean make, it shows us the covenant already existed. Confirm means to strengthen, to be stronger.

God made a covenant with Abraham and Abraham said God would provide Himself a Lamb, Genesis 22:7-8, was Jesus this Lamb, Isaiah 53:7 John 1:29 Revelation 5:6. This covenant is with many, Zechariah 2:11 Isaiah 53:11 Matthew 20:28 Matthew 26:28 Romans 5:15,19. Jesus was sent to confirm the promise/covenant made unto Abraham, Romans 15:8. Could Jesus be this he?

"In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" Sacrifice and Oblation, the first word is talking about the daily sacrifices, the Tamid, the morning and evening lamb the same time Jesus was on the cross 9 AM the first to 3 PM the last. Then the second word refers to all of the other offerings presented to the Lord.

Do you think the sacrifice and oblation was designed by God to completely cease upon the finished work of Jesus on the cross? Hebrews 9.

God bless,

RLW

Hi 510.

"The Lord has won the battle for us".

You may not find it written like that in the scripture.

However that fact to be true but the battle isn't over as long as we're in the world.

Scripture records the end and all things will be made new.

We still have our adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour as mentioned in 1 Peter 5:8.

We also have this flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would as mentioned in Galatians 5:17.

In John 16:33 Jesus says; "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world".

Jesus said in John 18:36. "MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD:

There's a heavenly kingdom yet to come!

Today he's calling out a people unto himself.

We were redeemed from this foreign cursed land by the precious blood of Christ as Peter mentioned in 1 Peter 1:17-19 as well as them of old who came before us as mentioned in Hebrews 11:13.

With that being said we are to be ambassadors for Christ. One who goes to a foreign country to do the business of he who sent you,

Satan is the prince of this world we live in.

I hope this helps and perhaps others would like to add,

God bless.

If the Lord has won the battle for us, why do we need to be armed, always ready to engage battle?

Eph 6:10-17 and in 2 Cor 10:3-4.

I understand it's a spiritual battle, a battle nonetheless.

Hi Blmrwm,

Divination is something we are not to get into you can open doors to things you do not want to even think about dealing with. It is the means of foretelling future events or discovering things secret with the aid of witchcraft, sorcerers, stars, and other mystical things we have been told to stay away from. Here are a few verses, Lev. 19:26-31 Lev. 20:6 Num. 22:7 Deut. 18:9-14

Many people do not believe these things exist but believe me they do. Saul did this 1 Sam. 28:7-25. You can also see in the NT, with a slave girl in Acts 16:16-18 and a man named Simon in Acts 8:9-24

I hope this little bit helps.

God bless,

RLW

Blessings Nstew,

Images are perceived, not known. knowledge cannot deceive, but perception can. God is omniscient, thus He does not perceive.

The Bible correctly says that God is Spirit and that Spirit gives birth ONLY to Spirit, and flesh gives birth ONLY to flesh. How then can God (Spirit) make flesh and blood when it creates ONLY Spirit?

The Bible also states that God is Love; therefore Love and Spirit are One. Thus Love (Spirit) Creates Itself and nothing but Itself. This means God could not be the Author of flesh and blood, and fear and hate.

The Bible also states that the Spirit is Truth. God is also eternal and changeless, and whatever is true is eternal and cannot change or be changed. Spirit is therefore unalterable because it is already perfect. But the mind mind can elect what it chooses to serve, the only limit put on its choice being that we cannot serve two masters; Spirit AND flesh, Love AND fear, Truth AND deception etc.

God creates only the eternal and not that which can change with time, to wither away and die. God is Life, not death. There is no death authored by God, because what God created shares His life. There is no death because an opposite to God cannot and does not exist. God is not the author of fear, we are; we have chosen to create and think unlike Him and therefore have made up this insane world filled with fear for ourselves.

I've said the following before, and will repeat: Anything that comes from God must be exactly like Him. God could not create anything that is not perfect, or else He wouldn't be perfect. The logic of this is flawless. If God is perfect and eternal, then by definition, anything He creates would ALSO have to be perfect and eternal.

God Is

Peace

Explain Divination please.

I pray that all my brothers and sisters in Christ their prayers will be answered I can't remember scripture but I do listen to music Christian rock mellow I have headphones on and I just feed my spirit maybe this will help out and if there's two of you two people are better than one that's more power I pray in Jesus name this will help

I think it's wonderful that you're there for your mom right now I know there's people all over the country in nursing homes that people just drop them off or if you don't see him you don't ask I guess you sleep good at night at the end you'll be glad that you were there my ex-wife has honey disease she's in a nursing home she's only 53 her family they don't care I pray in Jesus name that my Lord Jesus Christ gives you strength I also pray that people will come into your life and just help you with a little things in Jesus name I pray amen

Hi Jimbob.

Oops I stated; "I believe Daniel 8:23-25 describes the rise and first half of the 70th week"

I left out Antichrist. I meant to say I believe Daniel 8:23-25 describes the rise od the Antichrist and first half of the 70th week.

Therefore he comes at the beginning of the 70th week but the Great tribulation starts mid week.

God bless

Hi Jimbob.

I also agree and hold to the outline Brother Chris gave on the 70 weeks but I term "the great tribulation" as the 2nd half of the 70th week as you do. "3 and a half years."

I believe in Mathew 24:15-16 and Mark 13:14 Jesus describes the abomination of desolation as the beginning of the Great tribulation. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.

I believe Daniel 8:23-25 describes the rise and first half of the 70th week.

"And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, AND BY PEACE SHALL DESTROY MANY: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

Also we see this false world peace mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5:3.

We see today an urge to leave the narrow gate and merge other religious practices and religions into the Church.

The Nation of Islam uses the Bible and false so called Christian preachers to bridge the gap of their version of Islam and Christianity today.

The Antichrist is coming to set himself up above ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD.

2 Thessalonians 2:4.

"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

God bless.

Hi Jimbob. Getting first to Daniel 9:26,27, I guess my understanding of the appearance of the "prince", ie. the Anti-Christ is somewhat different to yours. In the Daniel passage, the way I read it (by my paraphrasing v 27) is:

'And he, the Anti-Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for seven years (that missing week of the seventy weeks of years). And in the midst of that seven years (i.e. at the 3 1/2 year point), he shall cause the Jewish sacrificial system & oblation offerings (which he probably re-instituted as part of that covenant he made with them), to be terminated & spread his own abominations in their place. And this he does until the completion of all things (could this be when Christ returns with His heavenly armies?) which includes the pouring out of God's final Judgement upon the desolate (on those that are 'desolate', in 'horror', as the Hebrew 'shamem' indicates for this verse).'

You understand that the Anti-Christ appears 'mid-week'. I read it that he appears at the beginning of the 'week' ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3: first the falling away & then the revelation of the man of sin, then 'the day of Christ' (His appearing for battle) will commence. Therefore, at the start of the seven year Great Tribulation period, the falling away, the man of sin appears, he reneges on his deal with Israel, then 'after the tribulation of those days' ( Matthew 24:29), the spectacular & frightening display from the universe, & the return of Jesus Christ. So, I see that the Great Tribulation begins right at the beginning at the appearing of the Anti-Christ, where the One or whatever entity that was thus far restraining him, is removed, & God's Anger is unleashed on an unbelieving, Christ-rejecting World.

Your reference to Matthew 24:4-14 as being the 'first 3 1/2 year period, I see as the condition of the world & the sufferings of believers at this present time (i.e. from Jesus' day till the present). And this continues until Matthew 24:15. Blessings Jimbob.

Please continue to keep me and my family in your prayers

Chris thank you for your response. I do agree with you in most of your comment, but I don't agree the great tribulation is a 7 year time period.

If we look at ( Mt. 24:15,21) What starts great tribulation according to these verses? The abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. That would be when the antichrist, the son of perdition exalteth himself above all that is called God in ( 2 Thess. 2:4) This happens in the midst of the week in ( Dan. 9:27) The midst is the halfway point, Right?

( Dan. 11:36-39) These verses call him "the king". v36 tells us ""and he shall (exalt himself), and (magnify himself) above ever god, and shall speak marvellous things (against the God of gods)".

Th antichrist is given power to continue forty and two months which is 3 1/2 years in ( Rev. 13:5-8) v5 tells us the time period is forty and two months 3 1/2 years. v6 tells us "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God". v7 "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them". This happens during the last 3 1/2 years which is shortened for the elect's sake in ( Mt. 24:22) Just a little farther down the chapter in ( Rev. 13:11-15) we see the deadly would healed, him doing great wonders, preforming miracles to deceive even the elect if possible. Then there's ( Rev. 13:15-18) The last 3 1/2 years will be the time of the mark of the beast.

Chris if this is the correct interpretation and I do believe it is, then that means ( Mt. 24:4-8) (9-14) "the beginning of sorrows" is the first 3 1/2 year period, (and in the midst) the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place which will start great tribulation, the last 3 1/2 year period ( Mt. 24:15,21).

Then we see how God shortened those days for the elect's sake in ( Mt. 24:29-31) v29 "Immediately after the tribulation". v30 "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory". v31 "and they shall gather together his elect".

Blessing to you Chris.

True Christ vs Imaginary

The bulk of this discussion is focused on men who profess to believe as a Christian and who are seeking faith as a means to an end. This; in my opinion is far more insidious; and leads to greater judgment than the average pagan who overtly worship false gods. We have discussed Lot's wife; and of course in New Testament times we have warnings such as Hebrews 10:29 to seriously consider as well as the previous verse. We have more than the law now; we have the Bible; the written testimony of God with His redemptive plan for us.

Part of the problem; as I have pointed out a number of times is the concept of "decisional regeneration". We can follow the admonition of Romans 10:9 and attest to the veracity of John 3:16 and a few other basic verses on salvation for a number of reasons; but apart from a transformation through the Holy Spirit and God drawing a person toward repentance we are NOT saved. This concept is found in 5 scriptures as either granting or leading someone to repenetance (see 2 Tim. 2:25; Romans 2:4). Two types of sorrow are mentioned in 2 Corinthians 7:10; godly and worldly sorrow. The end result is either spiritual death or life. (compare Peter to Judas Iscariot after Gethsemene; and until His crucifixion for examples of these two types of sorrow). I would go farther though; some of us haven't even considered the consequences of our sins and how it would affect us at the end of this life; and Judgment Day. Fear of hell may not save someone without an appreciation for the Holiness of God and how we have offended our Creator; which comes in a large part after we are saved (experientially slow for some; immediate for others). But true repentance gives us some realization of our state apart from Christ along with a new heart ( Ezekiel 11:19-20).

I will say that in today's world; it is going to get very costly to even confess Christ; assuming; of course it is real church that we are declaring allegiance to

Man

- A Creature of God

Genesis 1:27

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

-Performance Issues

i.Low resistance to temptation

Genesis 3:13

"And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, the serpent beguiled me, and I did eat."

ii.High level of corruption

Genesis 6:12

"And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth."

Puzzle

I light of these issues, what is the meaning of "in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."?

Yessir Mr Landry. I understand THAT!!! I was asking for anyone else who understands that. NOW since I know I am in discussion with the HOLY Spirit HIMSELF,I have a need Mr Landry. Ever since the day I was born I have been under extreme darkness and drowned nearly to death In sin iniquity AND corruption. I didn't understand it at ALL till the Lord Jesus Christ found me in a dungeon and baptized me AND awakened me. BUT let me Tell you brother. I didn't receive blessing AND Joy AND freedom. I woke up with absolute bloodthirsty EVIL The shadow of death and ONLY by The mercies of the most high am I still persevering. But I need prayer. THE power of the lion's The power of The dog'AND the whole system is hunting me LIKE a gazelle. I know I'm Way Way Way wssaaaaay down under the shadow of death and My ONLY Hope is The Lord Jesus Christ who I trust with All My might soul strength and heart Will not leave me in THIS death. I'm terribly hounded and I know Jesus has brought me here for HIS purpose AND I am failing miserably. Psalm 142--- is My meat to hold on to because no one Will care for my soul. BUT JUST as The holy spirit of Ecclesiastes wrote through I'm persuaded Solomon. " FOR I know,that Whatsoever God does it shall be for ever, nothing can be put to it, neither anything taken from it, and GOD DOES IT, THAT MEN SHOULD FEAR BEFORE HIM. SO THAT'S MY ANCHOR. IF IT'S OF ALMIGHTY GOD SO BE IT. HIS WILL BE DONE. BUT I BEG HIM FOR THE GRACE TO GO The distance he is asking of me. Not for my own IMAGE but FOR his ETERNAL purpose He purposed in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world. Called according to his ETERNAL purpose. HIS purpose. HIS Glory. Jesus Christ MIGHTY ever conquering bringer of The law of the Spirit of Life, conqueror of death darkness sin The grave Satan AND every cruelty he ever imagined according to his own heart to Dare be LIKE GOD. JESUS TOOK OFF HIS GARMENTS OF CREATOR AND BECAME A MUD PIE AND DESTROYED ALL THINGS CONTRARY TO GOD AND GOOD. NIGHT

Proverbs 8v12

King James version.

Witty inventions.

I think this can be read as man's clever ideas designs or inventions-products to help mankind.

Without damaging the fundamental point of avoiding man's clever or better words would be,"cunning or wicked", plans-inventions to mislead against God's word.

Mezzimah is the Hebrew for inventions. In its meaning I've read it can mean , good plans or good ideas to help mankind as well as wicked plans.

Does anyone agree that the full expression of Witty inventions in verse 12 of proverbs 8 would include good plans of man. Maybe it can cover good and bad plans. Using wisdom to find knowledge of Witty inventions.

The word Witty I think is a broad word too which can be interpreted differently.

All without damaging the fundamental teaching that God's plans are better than man's but also that the fullness of God's blessings and potentials shouldn't be limited by a more fundamental interpretation in this verse.

Thanks, I wrote alot, been writing about this a bit.

???