All Discussion PAGE 410

Thank you again David0921. Clearly, we don't agree on the meaning of God's Authorship of the Bible; i.e. we believe that the Bible is God's Word, but your belief is that every word or phrase given therein matches what God had spoken. To this I disagree, so we will need to leave that matter out.

You asked, "who decides when God is using hyperbole (language)?" Well to answer that, I would have to say, that I, the reader would, because I, the reader am expected to read God's Word, understand it & digest it. If I can convince myself that camels can go through a needle's eye or a great many good believers staying true to the Word, are walking amongst us with a gouged out right eye, then yes, every Word in the Bible must be understood literally. Hopefully, I have been blessed with a little common sense, and so I refuse to be swayed with nonsense.

You shared from Romans 3:10-18. Yes, man's spiritual condition is really that bad, but do we in our wicked state have the poison of asps under our tongues or all our throats resemble open sepulchres. We should understand the state & extent of their wickedness, but the use of metaphors is quite normal to drive the meaning home. So is God "exaggerating for effect rather than stating a fact? On this passage, I would say that as Paul took reference to Psalm 5:9 & somewhat to Deuteronomy 32:32,33, Paul confirmed what has always been man's unregenerate state, where all these references have used metaphors for effect to highlight the fact.

And yes, in Psalm 58:3 that is exactly what is implied: not a verbal language from a babe but from a sin-infected heart from birth. But the basic problem we have here is how much that we read is exactly what God has given for man to record & how much of it has man placed from his own knowledge & experience. The fact that God has allowed all of it shows that Truth is what matters not the verbatim production of the Word, which could never happen.

Dear David 0921 , may I ask you , what do you think that Martha's beliefs must have been at the time that she said the words in John Ch 11 V 20-24 ? I know how Christ responds to her in V 25 , what do you think she was talking about in V 24 ? Do you think that what she is talking about could be connected to what David believes about his deceased son in 2nd Samuel ?

Matthew Ch 25 V 31-46 again ! :) That's an excellent point about works and so many of Jesus's parables are about the kind of behaviour that he expects from us as Christians . I believe we all need to do what we can in this life to show the love of God to any and everyone who crosses our path , that can be done in very many ways , from donating to charity or even just listening to someone who needs someone to hear them . I guess these would be considered works ! However , I wouldn't even consider doing that sort of thing if I didn't first have some faith in God and in Jesus , that they were real , alive and watching me , I know the kind of behaviour that they expect from me and I now the kind of behaviour that they don't expect from me and I know that they know that I know :) . Faith comes first , without it we cannot please God , I believe that my faith causes me to DO things in a certain way . Is that what people call works ? Good question and a great point Brother Dan .

Yes David0921, I also believe that "we can never come to an agreement on many many very important doctrines in the Bible", simply because our beliefs don't align with how the Bible was written & given to us. If "God is indeed the AUTHOR of the entire Bible..every word, phrase...from the mouth of God", then I would think that I wouldn't understand a word of it. But God used human men charged with His Spirit to communicate His Word to us for our benefit. And this goes even further away from the original Voice & Word of God, when that first delivery has since been translated into a variety of languages using a variety of texts from a variety of sources. So is God's Word that you read today in the KJB, exactly the same as what God spoke? It can never be, but its Truths, manner of human involvement & Divine help with their memory & subsequent translations, can provide us as close as possible to God's actual Voice. If we should believe that the KJB (or any translation) is the product of what God said verbatim, I believe that any check (if it were at all possible), would highlight the differences. Truth is retained - but not to the point of exact, word-for-word delivery.

The only two instances I can recall (there may be others), where we see the Finger of God at work, are in Exodus 31:18 & Daniel 5:5,24-28. Of course, we know of many instances where those like Abraham, Moses, Jacob, & others heard directly from God & recorded what they heard. Unless they were writing all things down as they were hearing from God, there will always be some differences in words used, sentence construction, etc., alongwith the many copies, fragments, translations, and so on. This, in my mind, in no way alters what God has to say to us & what we have in our hands is what God wants us to read. But to believe that every jot & tittle is exactly the same as given, is too far-fetched for me.

Page 2.

e. for one week (7 years) this 'prince' will construct a pact with Israel & in the midst of that 7 years, renege on it. So how should we account for this missing seven years from the original word given to Daniel of 490 years (70 weeks from Jerusalem's rebuilding to bringing in everlasting righteousness)?

There have been many suggestions, but in my present understanding, these seven years are still missing of the 490 years, i.e. the prince is yet to come & is yet to make this covenant (pact), & yet to renege on it, with the overspreading of abominations, UNTIL THE CONSUMMATION (Completion).." (God's Judgement, or as you understand it, God's Wrath). In line with Daniel 7:8, Daniel 9:26,27, Matthew 24:15, & 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4, I understand that this seven year period (outstanding from the 483 accomplished years), is the time of Great Tribulation; primarily against Israel but no doubt affecting the whole world when the 'prince to come' (the Anti-Christ) demands his mark & worship from all.

If you have another interpretation of these passages or even how you discern this time from other verses, then I would be keen to study them, & even change my thoughts on this. Blessings.

Page 1.

No offence at all Jimbob; always glad to share with you. I believe you know the passage well, that which is found in Daniel 9:20-27 & this subject has come up often in these pages over the years.

In my understanding of this passage, the mention of 'weeks' is taken to mean 'weeks of years', i.e. where 'seventy weeks' are seen in verse 24. Then the 'seventy weeks' (or, seventy sevens) equate to 490 years. This then is the basis from which the ensuing dates & events fall out. If you have disagreement on this, or other thoughts, then please read no further as you won't subscribe to any of it.

So, as verse 24 gives us, this full period of 490 years "determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city" will at its completion, "finish the transgression, make an end of sins...to bring in everlasting righteousness...". And then from Daniel 9:25, we get the timeline of future events (i.e. from Daniel's vantage point & with our limited view & understanding).

a. of the 490 years, 49 years were accomplished: that is, from Artaxerxes commandment (in 445 BC; Nehemiah chap 2 onwards) to 'restore & build Jerusalem' to its accomplishment 49 years later.

b. then after the completion of 49 years & then a further 434 years ("threescore and two weeks") were then fulfilled by the coming of Jesus the Messiah & His Crucifixion.

c. after the 434 years & the death of Jesus, in time (AD 70) "the people of the prince that shall come" (led by Gen Titus of Rome) will desecrate the Temple & destroy Jerusalem.

d. now we have the full completion of 69 weeks (or 483 years of the 490 years prophesied), but one week (7 years) of the seventy weeks remain. Daniel 9:27, "And HE shall confirm the covenant with many for one week". This wasn't Titus or the people of Rome, but these men were the people of the "prince that SHALL COME" (i.e. another coming person that is referred to in verse 27).

Onto Page 2.

Judgment.

I believe we have a all knowing God who can't be surprised who stands on the outside of time looking in!

Anything you are going to do next week or next year, in God's view you did it yesterday!

How can we know his judgments?

We know that he's just and we're all guilty.

He's righteous, Merciful, longsuffering and he's just, beyond what we can comprehend.

With that being said our minds don't measure up when trying to understand his Judgments.

So if we use his attributes along with what is consistent throughout ALL scripture as a principle to guide us we should come to conclusion hearing and receiving the word of God or refusing to hear and rejecting the word of God plays the primary role in God's Judgment.

So there must be an age of maturity enough for one to understand they need an savior because little two year old Billie is a sinner and he don't know it.

An accountability is likely when one matures and have understanding of some sort of consequences for sin, Some acknowledgement of the need for a savior.

And I believe God judges them according to what they receives.

Here's a few scriptures according to those basics.

Luke 10:13-14

Matthew 10:14-15.

Luke 12:47-48.

God shall judge righteous.

You see a picture of how he uses discretion in judgment in

Genesis 18:23-32.

Genesis 18:35 should be considered along with God's sovereign and foreknowledge and circumstances.

I believe there's a lot more going on in this dark world than what is on the surface and these things should be taken into consideration when questioning God's decision to destroy nations.

We could never fully understand God's methods of Judging but we can take what we do have in scripture and say one would have to be able to comprehend more than what a child is capable of to receive judgment without mercy.

Example.

DEUTERONOMY 1:39

Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day HAD NO KNOWLEDGE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL..

GB.

Jesus SAID concerning THINGS -- seek ye FIRST - THE KINGDOM OF GOD and all THESE THINGS will be added UNTO you. ALSO for your Father knows what things you need before you ask. (( ALSO in proverbs it says " he that finds a wife finds a Good thing and obtains favor from the Lord.)) I know FROM past experiences AND FROM HIS word AND BEING denied MANY MANY MANY thing's AND needs, IT made me MORE grateful for the little THINGS and extremely grateful for God who provides them. If anything is taking more of your heart mind soul--and strength, it's not good for you. Now don't think FOR a second I'm giving my opinion. I'm sure your relationship with God is MORE agreeable than my own right now. FOR I need prayers for My overwhelmingly oppressive circumstances myself. BUT God bless you and keep you and I hope you hear THESE words. FOR God desires to delight in you. But he cannot do so unless you are in Right relationship with him

Does anyone have the prophecy of scripture to interpret who US is THAT the word refers to in GENESIS 1:26-- " God SAID" let us" --- anyone know the HOLY Spirit interpretation?

Anyone available WHO has the testimony of Jesus Christ?

Chris,

Allow me to make one other comment regarding hyperbole.

Who decides when God is using hyperbole and when he is not? Who decides when God is exaggerating for effect Rather than stating a fact? Is Romans 3:10-18 hyperbole? Is man's condition really that bad? I could give countless other examples that can take us in any direction that suits us.

In the passage we are discussing could "speaking" refer not to a verbal language, but to what is in the sin infected heart or spirit of mankind from birth.

When we begin to apply the methods that mankind may use in writing to interpret the Word of God, our understanding becomes very subjective and of "private interpretation".

And that is a snare that will lead us away from truth, not into truth.

I never want to even tinker with that idea.

Chris,

God does not speak in "Hyperbole". But he does often speak in "parables".

If God is truly the author of the entire Bible, and he is. Then the Bible becomes its own dictionary, and we can compare how God uses a word or phrase in one part of the Bible with any other part of the Bible to come to an understanding. If every word or phrase in the Bible is not indeed from the mouth and mind of God himself, then we can't do that.

So again, I'm sad to say, you and I are working from different authorities as we seek to come to truth.

Back to the use of 'hyperbole' in the Bible, David 0921. Hyperbole, or 'an obvious & intentional exaggeration' (Dictionary), is found throughout the Bible. Here in Psalm 58:3 (a babe speaking lies at birth; the emphasis here is on the depth of wickedness found in some people). Is this God's Word? Yes it is. Can God use such language (through his servants) to communicate to us? Yes He can. Are we required then to believe that a new born child speaks lies, or should we learn from such hyperbolic language of the severity of wicked men?

Lest we think that this is just a rare occasion of such language, we could consider other Scriptures: Deuteronomy 1:28 (cities walled up to the (skies)); Jesus' Own Words: Matthew 19:24 (a camel going through a needle's eye); Luke 14:26 (hating family & one's own life, though 'hate' used as the strongest term for 'total rejection'); Matthew 5:29 (gouging out the eye); John 4:39 (the woman's testimony that Jesus told her every account of her life); and many more.

So all these are given as irrefutable words that God has allowed into it, including hyperbolic language, metaphors, similes. Yet, they are to be understood as such, or else our understanding would take a dangerous divergent turn that can only lead to error. Which hopefully leads us to the 'eternity' question: are the descriptions of hell or an eternal raging fire for all the unrepentant, factual or simply use of hyperbolic language? So here we have the problem: why would Jesus refer to that time using that type of language, as also the apostles did (or alluded to it), when only the grave is the final destiny of the unsaved? Understood, that heaven & an eternal life in all purity & happiness with our Great God & Savior should be the desire of all; but is this wonderful message alone, sufficient to cause sinners to truly repent & yearn for God's forgiveness, rather, as there is an eternity of bliss, so there is also an eternity of woe that Christ came, giving us an escape route?

Chris I mean no offence here but if you don't mind would you please show where you get, or how you come up with the great tribulation being a 7 year time period?

Chris,

If I am reading your comment correctly, you really do not believe that God is indeed the AUTHOR of the entire Bible; that every single word or phrase in the Bible is from the very mouth of God himself. This is not a small nor insignificant difference in how we view the Bible. And our view will color every single verse or passage that we read in the Bible.

If that is truly your understanding, We each have a different authority from which we are trying to understand truth. And we can never come to an agreement on many many very important doctrines in the Bible, I am sorry to say.

AMEN Brother Ronald:

John 17:22 The glory that thou hast given me, I have GIVEN them; that they my be ONE, as we are ONE.

Oh! the grace of God that is given to man.

God bless you

2 Corinthians 5:6-8

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jude 1:14,15

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Hi again Jema,

You asked the question about who I'm referring to regarding the "just and the unjust". The just are the ones who have heard The Gospel of The Kingdom by: Jesus Christ, and believe, accept, repent from their sin, ask for forgiveness, receive baptism, and strive to pick up their cross and follow Jesus Christ.

The unjust would be the opposite; they hear the Gospel of the Kingdom and refuse and don't believe, they fail to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and continue to live a worldly life in sin. Or alternately they hear it, believe it initially, and then fall away back into their world of sin.

The bible reinforces and insures that "Everyone that ever lived on this earth," will receive their own final Judgement.

Revelation 20:12

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Important: How were they judged? They were judged every man according to their works!!!! What??? Works??? Something we all need to really think about

GBU

I agree David0921 that what we read in the Word of God IS the Word of God to us, yet I think we might understand this a little differently. I think of 2 Timothy 3:16 which reminds us that "ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God", i.e. God-breathed through the instrument of man. I then ask myself, to help me come to grips with this statement, were these men of God who were God's instruments to hear & record God's Words to them, lacking control of their faculties (i.e. had they become almost robotic in God's Hands) when penning those words? Or were they simply recording God's Words as heard, or writing what they believed were true & accurate accounts, but were invisibly being inspired & moved by God's Spirit? Somewhat like a pastor preparing his Lord's Day message; after first seeking the Lord's Face, he begins his preparation (whether by thought, message points & Scriptures, or a fully written out sermon). He could well say that those words recorded were his own, yet knowing full well that there was a clear inspiration & leading in his thoughts & eventual delivery.

Likewise, what we read in Psalm 58:3 were essentially David's words recorded but inspired by God's Spirit & for their recording. So the difference in how we understand it might be small, but my belief is that both God's Word coupled with David's word are seen here, as throughout all Scripture (exceptions of course, when God is speaking directly). In the case of Sodom & Gomorrah, true, all were destroyed by God as the volume of their sin forced God's Hand to act. But God is both the Author, Creator, & Destroyer - yet we're not told of those very little ones, yet untarnished with sin, as to their destiny. You may believe that death was their collective punishment - I believe that at least some were spared from hell.

I'll come back to the Bible's use of 'hyperbole' next, which is still God's Word but cannot be taken to be literal; it should be understood as language used to bring on an emphasis.

Hi Landry,

I agree with you, this subject is rooted in the soul being immortal that came from the Greek philosophical influence. My understanding, there is no scripture to support the soul being immortal. If someone is comforted by thinking their loved one who has died is in heaven am I going to tell them their wrong, No. Is it biblical? No, it comes from the Greek definition of death as the separation of the soul from the body.

The Hebrew word nephesh and the Greek word psuche, translated as the soul that is from Genesis 2:7 to Revelation 18:4. What is the soul? What is death if our soul which is the essence of who we are is immortal? If our soul that is who we are goes to heaven when this body dies why is there a resurrection of the dead?

The just and the unjust will be resurrected, Matt. 22:31 Luke 14:14 Acts 17:32 Acts 23:6 Acts 24:15 Acts 24:21 1 Cor. 15:12,13,21,42 Phil. 3:11 Heb. 6:2. 1 Cor. 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 1 Cor 15:42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

I will leave it there; I know discussions of this subject can get pretty dogmatic and I do not want to show any disrespect to those who hold that we go to heaven when we die there are many.

God bless,

RLW

Mr. Landry,

I'm not at all in agreement with the conclusions in your comment.

I do want to set the record straight on Acts 2. This chapter is talking about the pouring out of God the Holy Spirit on Pentecost where about 3000 were saved. This was the beginning of the Church Age where the Gospel was to go out into the world.

Peter's sermon spoke of the death and resurrection and ASCENSION of the Lord Jesus Christ into the Heaven.

The reference to David has to do with Psalm 16 and David, while often used in the Bible as a type of Christ, is not the object of Peter's sermon, but it is Christ Himself.

The ASCENSION being spoken of here is the ASCENSION of Christ after His Resurrection, and is not talking about a True Believer's soul which goes to be with Christ in heaven at death, as David's surely did.

Christ: Real and imaginary (intro ending)

Lot's wife never demonstrated saving faith from what scripture would indicate; at the very least desiring more to turn back to see the fate of the city doomed for destruction rather than to escape. "Righteous Lot" ( 2 Peter 2:7-8) was vexed every day; and clearly quite compromised in his dealings when he offered his daughters to the men who were trying to break down his door to commit abominations. No mention of his wife is in the scriptures; as was with Sarah; for instance in Hebrews 11.

Today in church it was discussed how Abraham was said to be the only one who was a "friend" of God ( James 2:23). Exodus 33:11 states the same of Moses as well so technically my Pastor erred. My point here I may expound on later; namely the fact that God truly spoke in a different manner to them than many others in the Bible. The friendship; in other words went both ways. The discussion also came up today in Sunday school on how He is both Master and friend. This is a mystery in itself; and forces us beyond stereotypical cultural viewpoints toward such a relationship. As for now; I will just state that Lot had to be "shoved" out of his town literally; and the angels had to put up with his ridiculous bantering about going to the nearby little town; which was promptly abandoned once Lot saw what happened and hid in the mountains. Abraham and Moses both had slow starts and their own issues; but were able to have close fellowship with the Lord as we see from Genesis 18:17 with Abraham and Exodus 32:30 where Moses acted to intercede to prevent God from destroying all of Israel. That scene is another discussion as to its theological implications.

We all should strive to be as the saints in the "hall of fame" in Hebrews 11; not stubborn like Jonah as an ox. Nonetheless these all are true believers. We CANNOT claim God's promises with an imaginary Christ or on other terms than scripture dictates and expect it to be true.

Hi once more Brother Dan , I respect your beliefs totally so I shan't labour my point any more after this post . Just to answer your statement about the ressurection of the just and of the unjust , who are they ? My belief is that the ' unjust ' are they ( Christians ) who knew their masters ( God or Jesus ) will and didn't do it . Luke Ch 12 V 47+48 . Matthew Ch 25 V 31-46 again :) , John Ch 9 V 39-41 . I shall not bother you again on this subject . Thanks for your time and I enjoyed our discussion .

Christ: Real and imaginary

Introduction

Psalm 50:21 warns of judgment coming for those who think that God is just like them; i.e. a God of their own imaginations or choosing. I have given many posts in regard to understanding correct doctrine; along with the admonition to know God not just know a lot about Him. John 6:45 explains from Isaiah 54:13 that we or "they" shall "all be taught by God."

In addition to experiential knowledge the Holy Spirit in the church age lives within every believer; in fact that implies each member of the Trinity or Triune God ( John 14:23). This has allowed us to be the Temple of God now ( 2 Cor. 6:16); which also mentions the "living God" in the verse; yet another evidence that "soul sleep" is a farce. God is not a God of the dead but the living ( Luke 20:38); which also mentions the word "all" as to who lives in Him; for all who are believers.

It is easy as believers to be one sided in this matter; and assume that the most dangerous deception is false religion (or atheism). In this; we also are ignorant of the fact that Satan wishes to steal God's Glory; hence denying the Father and Son in Spirit; but also magnifying himself as though he IS God ( 1 John 2:23; 2 Thess. 2:4). False Christs; of course are rampant as a sign of the last days. ( Matt. 24:24). This is not even the greatest danger; what is are those who are in the midst of the true believers where the Word of God is preached; somehow comforting themselves in some warped version of who Christ is to them personally. "Remember Lot's wife" is an excellent tract by Chapel Library in Pensacola which I am recommending for this theme in particular as well as for all their tracts that show the "Grace Gospel" (all of Christ; none of us basically). Scripture makes it clear the fate of Lot's wife who turned back ( Gen. 19:26). The tract makes it clear that she had unusually privileges being able to be the only married woman in Sodom who got to hear the Word of God.

Brother David921

David DID NOT go to heaven when he physically died.

Acts 2:34 David IS NOT ASCENDED into the heavens .....

Acts 2:29 Men and Brethren, let me speak to you freely, the patriarch is DEAD and buried ....

John 3:13 No man hath ascended into heaven, but he which came down from heaven and is now in heaven.

ALL MEN ARE DEAD

ONLY Christ arose; we are joint HEIRS, you don't exist OTHER than being the BODY CHRIST DWELLS IN.

A NEW CREATION, as the FATHER and SON are ONE, you are now ONE IN THEM.

This is the GOSPEL, the KINGDOM of GOD, Christ in you, sinful flesh DIED on the cross, ONLY Christ arose, a New creation arose.

1 Timothy 6:16 Christ ONLY has IMMORTALITY, dwelling in the light .... in the presence of God ......

This mortal shall put on IMMORTALITY ....

Ephesians 4:4 ....ONE body .... ONE spirit ......

Ephesians 4:6 .... ONE GOD .... Father of ALL ... above ALL ... through ALL ...in you ALL ...

ONE .... GOD ..... ALL in ALL ......

God bless you as he bring you to TRUTH.

Hiya Jema...no offence....But leme give ya my slant on this 2 nd Child that Bathsheba had with David....The 1 st Child died symbolic of the 1 st child that was born by this relationship of Christ with the early Church....Which was Christianity that died in its infancy....Original Christianity was a beautiful Child but it was sick....We have not seen a child like Original Christianity for 2 k yrs But it died in its infancy....B/c the early Church had a husband which was the law....Thats y Paul said you are dead to the law by the body of Christ that you should be Married to another even to him that was raised from the dead... Romans 7 :4 ...Remember Bathsheba had to marry ANOTHER even David....My lil Children of whom i travail in birth AGAIN a 2 nd time till Christ is formed in you...At Horeb Moses married all Israel to the law....Saying this is what God has enjoined unto you....But You are dead to the law by the body of Christ....Bathsheba was dead to Uriah by the body of David....Eccle 4:15 I saw the 2 nd Child that shall rise up in his stead ( Christ stead) and there is no end to the ppl he shall be king over...Whosoever receiveth one such Child in MY name... the 2 nd Child.. The Woman in Rev. 12: 5 is giving birth to the 2 nd Child which is the H.G. the Children of PROMISE that are gonna be as the stars of heaven..Her 1 st Child Christianity died.... Micah 5 :3 Therefore shall he give them up till she that is in travail has given birth then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the Children of ISRAEL....Thats y Paul said when that which is perfect is come that which is done in parts will be done away with...We know in part and we prophesy in part but when that which is perfect is come (the 2 nd Child that spirit of truth) that is gonna reprove the world of sin and judgement and righteousness....The manchild is gona rule all nations with a rod of iron..which is the 2 nd child... the spirit of truth that is gona reprove the world of sin etc...The 2 nd Child.

Jema,

I want to add something to my original note to you on this passage.

The key verse in this passage that cements the understanding that David's child was "saved" is 2 Samuel 12:23.

But now he is dead {physically dead and his body in the grave}, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him {in heaven to be with Christ when David dies physically, because that is where David's son now resides in his soul existence to await the Resurrection at the Last Day}, but he shall not return to me {in his physical body while David is still living physically}.

This fits perfectly with what the Bible teaches about the true nature of salvation and what happens to a True Believer when they die physically.

We can pray for physical healing for a loved one while they still have physical life, if it may be God's will to heal that person. And more importantly we may pray for spiritual healing, i.e. salvation for a loved one, if it might be God's will to save them, while they are still physically alive.

While it was not God's will to return David's child to physical health and the baby died. God most certainly did save David's son before he died physically.

And all of this was performed by God in accordance with His perfect plan. And the account provided for us in the Bible for our instruction.

Please pray for my daughter who is in Spiritual battle and is not living in the will of God.

Chris,

Pardon my misspelling in my comment regarding the cities the Israelites "conquered"; not "concurred".

Hi David , thanks for your reply , may I ask , what do you think that David means when he says : I shall go to him but he shall not return unto me ?