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I would like to add to what has been shared by Jema and Richard.
Here is a scripture that may adress your concerns on knowing what or whether you should ask for particular things.
Romans 8:26-27.
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Commit yourself to the Lord and he will line your heart up with his will.
I hope this helps.
God bless.
When God brought destruction on the whole world in the flood of Noah's day or in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, which are pictures of God's final judgement on the unsaved and the world, I think we can be quite sure that there were new born or very young babies amongst those that experienced these judgements in exactly the same way as adults. There is no distinction made.
And when the Israelites were commanded to destroy everyone in the cities they concurred, there was no special provision made for children. These also were pictures of God's final judgement on the unsaved.
I am very convinced that the child of whom David was speaking was "saved". The language can mean nothing else. And God had revealed this to David.
When God saves us He gives us a brand new Resurrected Soul which in itself cannot sin. When David's child died He therefore went immediately in his soul existence to be with Christ in heaven. And David, having confidence that he himself was also saved, could expect and therefore say that he also would go to be with Christ in heaven when he died physically. As does every True Believer when they die physically. And David and his son, like every True Believer, will have their salvation completed when they receive their Resurrected Spiritual Body at the Last Day when the Resurrection and Rapture of all True Believers will occur. And David and his son, now in their complete personality, body and soul, will be "caught up to be with Christ in the air".
I am very certain of these things and believe the Bible leaves no doubt that this is the case.
These statements are in the first instance the Word of God and not the word of David.
They are are most certainly God's statement about mankind in general (apart from Adam whose initial condition at creation was quite different).
This is an example, I believe, of our differing understanding regarding the nature of the Bible, itself; and how God declares we are to interpret the Bible.
I hope this Lord's Day finds you, your family, and all that comment on this site well.
I want to say that I appreciate your comments very much. I read them and respond to you directly and have had discussions with you on several topics because they are likely representative of the majority view of those that post in this forum. And are, I suspect, representative of the views held today by many in the "evangelical" community and have been taught in many churches to varying degrees.
Your comments are clearly thought out and challenge my thinking and scriptural understanding as I hope mine do yours and others.
We do have a different understanding in several areas; and I believe those differences stem primarily from a difference, to some degree, in our understanding of 1) the nature of the Bible itself, and 2) how God instructs us in His Word, the Bible, to interpret what we read there.
Nothing that I say in my comments is meant to be a judgement on you personally. That is God's business, not our business, and certainly not my business. But any time any one of us are confronted with God's Word it is serious business. And I suspect we are in total agreement on that score.
I just felt the need to say this and I suspect that you have gathered that already from our discussions, which I hope will continue.
Again, God's blessings on you and your family.
That means a lot to me.
God bless you and all that you do.
Perhaps I will free up some time to join later.
Blessings.
Here it seems that David is accusing the corrupt judges (vv 1,2) of gross wickedness. Such was their deplorable condition that they displayed their propensity towards evil soon after birth. He says, that "they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies"; I see that he is taking some license in using hyperbole, for how does a newborn babe speak lies?
These men were not wicked in the womb, even though David acknowledged that he himself "was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me" ( Psalm 51:5). Whether in Psalm 58 or 51, the indication is that the sin nature already exists in the embryo & of course that sin nature manifests not long after by the committing of sin. David saw that the wickedness of those men was so great that their propensity to sin was manifest soon (some time?) after birth - not in the womb. If you believe that a "newborn baby is subject to the wrath of God and eternal death..." (& by extension, it must also be subject to God's Wrath in the womb), when no sin has been committed, that would be an extreme position to hold to, which I believe is baseless. There is no Scripture at all to suggest what you state & of course all those babies that are stillborn, aborted, have their lives taken after birth or simply cannot have the Gospel preached to them for their response, are all subject to God's Wrath & eternal death (& as you understand it: separation from God into annihilation & oblivion).
The 'age of accountability' is simply an attempt to show that our sin nature is judged only when we sin outside of the womb - never inside. Sin is a deliberate act of offending God - it can't be done on the inside.
I understand why we might concoct a theory of an "age of accountability". But God puts that idea to rest in very clear and concise language.
Psalms 58:3
The wicked are ESTRANGED from the WOMB: they go ASTRAY as soon as they BE BORN, speaking lies.
Romans 3:10-18
As it is written, There is NONE righteous, no, NOT ONE : There is NONE that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after God. They are ALL gone out of the way, they are TOGETHER become unprofitable; there is NONE that doeth good, no, NOT ONE. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins;
Because of Adam's sin, mankind is infected with SIN and is spiritually DEAD from the moment of conception. And it requires God's action to change that condition. The Bible declares that action as becoming BORN AGAIN. That is SALVATION.
There is no "age of accountability". No matter how much we may wish it to be so.
Apart from salvation, a new born baby is subject to the wrath of God and eternal death, whatever that may be.
Secondly, a parable does not reveal people's names or places - for if they did, then it no longer is a parable (a simple story) but a true account with real people. So in the case of Luke 16:19-31 for example, people's names are given (Lazarus & Abraham), names which shouldn't appear in a parable; once names are given then the implication is that those people & events are real & not just a story with a message. If the story teller just used proper names or places (e.g. Lazarus & Abraham or anyone else in a parable) glibly, then he could justifiably said to be a liar, for those people did not actually exist in the story given.
Lastly, I believe in the eternal nature of the human spirit/soul - it can never be destroyed. So here then is a further hurdle we have to deal with, as to the destiny of the 'real' person, even if the body lies & disintegrates in the earth. Just thought to share these points at the outset so you know where I'm coming from. Blessings.
Thank you David0921, I appreciate the ongoing discussion on this very important doctrine.
Just to first consider "the idea of an unsaved baby that dies at birthexperiencing punishment that never ever ends", I confess that the Bible gives no clear teaching on this. There have been opinions given when folk here have enquired about the 'age of accountability' & even though various ages have been suggested, I think the consensus has been that the transmission of the sin nature in no way condemns a babe or adult to judgement for it. It is when sin is committed that makes a person a sinner & therefore accountable. What that age is, is anyone's guess, though my sense is that when the child (not babe) understands error/sin & the reason for discipline, that child whose heart is then smitten each time a sin is devised or performed, becomes a sinner & is accountable. Fortunately, with good Christian parenting, Sunday Schools, Child evangelism ministries, & so forth, at least this young soul can be secured into salvation, when the gravity of sin & the need of Jesus is understood & accepted.
But to your comment that 'all verses relating to God's Judgement must be considered, not isolated' are important; along with God's Mercy, His Laws, & of course Christ's & apostolic teaching given to us. This could be a long road ahead for us, but to make clear points at the start: my understanding of parables (as Jesus shared them) might be very different to yours. There are approximately 30 parables of Jesus given in the Gospels & all of them follow these two distinctives:
a. they were simple stories that His hearers could understand & identify with (e.g. a farmer, a Samaritan, sheep, treasure, coin, wheat/tares, fig tree, etc.) but these stories had a deeper meaning (of God's Kingdom & its values) & implications that weren't grasped by His listeners, including His disciples.
Cool that you make your own laundry soap. Hope your son digs into the Word and that the Holy Spirit opens his mind up to the truths it contains, especially ones that he needs to understand at this time in his life.
Going off to bed now. God's blessings to you always.
Continued...
The account goes on to say that anyone who refuses to be sprinkled according to this ritual remains unclean and cannot participate in religious life of the congregation. They are cut off from the people.
Perhaps this emphasis on following the way God directed to be cleansed has a few purposes: 1) for people to recognize the depth of their sinfulness that will always result in death 2) that each person needs to be cleansed from sin that comes from our sinful nature 3) that God has prescribed on way to be cleansed from touching a dead body-there is no other way for the OT Israelites 4) For us, this rite reminds us that there is only one way for us to be cleansed of our sin-not by this rite (it is a foreshadowing)but by the sacrifice of Jesus and for us dying and rising with Him to become holy, pure, and reborn spiritually.
This chapter gives God's explanation and institution of the rite of the red heifer for purification from sins.
The heifer blood of the heifer is to be sprinkled before the doorway of the tent of meeting seven times by the priest, although the priest does not slay it, nor burn it, nor collect the ashes, He is to observe this part of the preparation of the ashes for purification.
Next the whole carcass is burned completely to ashes outside of the camp. Cedar wood, hyssop, and scarlet (wool) is to be thrown on the fire to be burned with the heifer. The ashes are to be collected and stored in some type of vessel to be used with running water and hyssop in the cleansing process.
After all of this is done, the priest and the one(s) who did the work are to wash themselves in water and also their clothing. They will be unclean until the evening begins.
Matthew Henry speaks of the heifer rite being a foreshadowing of the complete giving of our Lord as a sacrifice unto death for the cleansing and remission of our sins. He says that the running water may refer to the cleansing work of the Holy Spirit at conversion. I think these are fair assessments by Mr. Henry.
Whenever someone touches a dead human body or human bones or any affects touching the body, the person is considered unclean for seven days. He is to go to the priest on days 3 and seven to receive upon himself the cleansing water mixed with ashes and sprinkled upon him with a branch of hyssop. Also, all of the belongings and things inside the tent and the tent itself of the one who has died must be sprinkled with this red heifer water for cleansing from death.
Matthew Henry also mentioned that the institution of this rite specifically for contact with a dead person demonstrates that death is a result and punishment of sin. It is directly linked with sin, since sin brings death to every person that every lived.
See part 2
Thank you for your recent responses. I believe that currently, we have a differing view on the subject of death, and hell. This subject comes up from time to time, and a fresh new thread may be beneficial at some point going forward. This thread is getting a little long so I will try keep this a short response without additional scripture.
You stated that Jesus spoke in parables, yes He did, but much that he spoke about was not in parables, and He can be taken very literally. An example is the verse that I gave you below:
Luke 12:4-5
4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Jesus tells us to fear God because not only can He kill us, He can also send us to hell! I think you believe that Satan and his demons will go to hell.if so, this is the same hell.
If it is as you seem to believe; that when we die as a sinner, we just remain dead forever, Jesus would have plainly said that, and he did not. There would also be no need for a resurrection of "all souls" the just and unjust - for judgement - which is also stated plainly throughout the bible.
GB
Thanks for the nice welcome back!
I've missed this site, and interacting with many of the folks here, including all of the regulars. I've taken some much needed time away to relocate our residence, and attend to the family, and all of the issues associated with getting settled into our new area, including some new work demanding more of my time now, than in the past.
It's so nice to see you are still very active here, along with some of the other regulars. I will check in from time to time, as time allows. Gigi, I have always admired all you do on this site to encourage and pray for so many people, and the good conversation, and sharing of all of your scriptural knowledge is a wonderful gift, and I truly believe that it is Spirit inspired!
God Bless You!
I also happened to get a copy of a Dake's Bible that someone left on top of a compactor at work. I couldn't locate the person with the name on the front; it ended with Smith a rather common name. I have a few issues with it; but with over 100,000 cross references it is a valuable asset in my collection. A couple years back I helped a woman in church who was consolidating and getting rid of stuff and she offered me her collection of about a half dozen Bibles (one of which has 4 translations simultaneously in it). Eventually; my original Bible in high school started fraying something fierce (wasn't preserved well either in hot storage spaces; etc).
As to work; we are commanded to work or not eat. That comes sometimes after months of effort; but again I was able to start after leaving my workplace with full time work and extra projects in Pittsburgh when I needed to help with care for my elderly parents in the Philly area. I spent several months searching and with fruitless efforts trying to get notary work but have worked since January 2022 in my current position in Food Service.
I wouldn't even say a car is worthless. I had a 1997 Honda or thereabouts which was a trade in for a much nicer 2014 car that I gave to my former roommate in need. It wouldn't pass inspection when I got here and since my dad really can't drive anymore the ownership of his car (which was a 2004 but with very low mileage; less than the one I had from 2014) was transferred to me.
As for money; I also have seen evidences of quick answered prayer needed for missionary efforts which I mentioned somewhere last year in a comment. Remember it is the love of money which is the root of all evil not money itself. Earthly things are a test of loyalty for heavenly ones
Sin; righteousness and judgment to come may not be the only function of the Holy Spirit but is essential. While a Word of Knowledge or Prophecy may be used to wake someone up; those filled with the Spirit and having their garments white and unspotted ( Ephesians 5:27 and other passages) who themselves are living with a healthy fear of the Lord will be noticed.
Perhaps it would be better to intentionally make people UNcomfortable by bringing them to church; it should start with ourselves when we see others who are clearly sold out to Christ that at times may put us to shame.
We know from the Word that it is the sin NATURE that is the root of all sorts of bad fruit causing behaviors (i.e. sinful actions). It seems rare today; along with the lack of fear of the Lord; "sloppy agape" as they call it for many to take seriously sin even after being genuinely saved. Discipline is needed; but of course the adage "we don't smoke; cuss; drink or dance" and other things to that affect aren't going to do anything against the power of sin. Legalism is dead by itself; along with the doing it "my way" adage. (Man all these quotes probably will get me flagged).
Lest we wake up someday in many of our churches and realize that we are a motley crew without much in common with each other and decide to call it a day and move on; often we find ourselves in the same boring pattern of worship week after week.
Once we realize how strange it is that we are; as it were His peculiar people we can understand how fellowship in the Spirit is supposed to work. It is easy to connect with the prettiest; smartest or most gifted orator in our congregation; or be more wrapped up in customs or even doctrinal knowledge than being in corporate worship of the LIVING God who ever lives to intercede for us ( Heb. 7:25 again).
How to minister to others based on giftings and callings comes AFTER we get beyond focusing on just our five senses.
Continuing the thought of the invisible realm (see John 20:29); we begin to understand the promises of God's protection of His saints ( Psalm 91:11; Isaiah 52:12) through the angels; we see how to correctly "bind and loose" ( Matt. 16:19); how to align more closely to what Christ is interceding in our behalf in seeking His will ( Heb. 7:25); and of course see those in bondage loosed from Satan's grip ( Luke 4:18-19) taken from Isaiah 61:1.
Those who love Him keep His commandments ( John 14:21) and originally found in Deuteronomy 7:9. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom ( Proverbs 9:10 but found many other places in scripture).
For a case study; let us examine 1 Corinthians 14:22-25 where we have tongues and prophecy as applying to unbelievers in one verse then switch to believers in the next verses. This means that evidence of the power of God needs to be present AND a clear message relatable to the sinner or saint present given. In reality there cannot be a supernatural manifestation of the Spirit WITHOUT a piercing of the soul ( Hebrews 4:12) that is of course accompanied by the Gospel as the rest of the verse indicates. It also shows how a church must be corrected as He chastises all His own (found further on in Hebrews 12 verse 6).
The fact that some spiritual activity is occuring isn't evidence that God is at work; it could be demons. The fact that this was still a place where His Spirit was at work was evident in the fact that Paul's severe discipline had results; and that right quick (as the Brits like to say). This is clear from chapter 7 of 2 Corinthians. As I started off this discourse; I mentioned the Ephesians. They were threatened with total removal of their candlestick in Revelation 2. Therefore; being dead would be worse than immature; even with all the correct doctrines and outer actions; ceremonies; etc.
John 16:8 shows how the true Spirit of God works.
I just want to say that Jesus is the object of our faith. We are to know what He has promised to us who believe and then live accordingly living each day in His will and believing that He will always be with us. he is always ready to forgive us when we confess our sins. He is always willing to hear our prayers and answer us with what is best. He is the only truly reliable person we can count on because He is not only the perfect human person, but also God who is always perfect.
Linda, I would love to have a more in depth conversation with you concerning your question. Perhaps you can explain why you asked the question or what is it about walking by faith that needs more explaining. People on this forum will be happy to help you in gaining better understanding. God bless you always.
I am one who does not think that you are looking for disputes on here. I always appreciate your input. We have agreed on so many things and others things we don't. But even so, we both desire to present our POV in the best way we can.
This is a good forum. Most of the time, conversations are helpful. At times things get passionate and that is fine with me. WE should be passionate about getting to the truth of matters concerning what God has revealed in His Word. I don't think this is being aggressive or contrary. I think that most of us are well meaning and also selective about what topics we engage in. What may be very important to one person may not be so to another. Over time we discover one another's sensitivities, which is a good thing.
So, I just wanted to respond to this post after some thought, because I wanted to assure you that I am one who respects you and your contribution. I also respect your straight forward approach, which is similar to my own. I find it refreshing to converse with someone who speaks their mind freely and directly. That helps to keep us from guessing what others are trying to convey.
We always need to consider what people are actually saying without trying to judge someone's motives or tone. I try to avoid doing this because it isn't fair to the other person to assume things they haven't communicated in words and I am one who takes people for what they say in their posts. And I say what I mean and mean what I say as well.
So, be encouraged today, Steven. We are blessed to be here together. When we all meet up in the resurrection, none of our differences will mater anymore because we will know what will actually take place before that time and after. So, all things will be made clear and we will just bask in the blessing of one another in Christ.
So good to hear from you! You.ve been very quiet on here for some time. Glad that you are still with us.
My husband is not much of a "group person". He likes to do stuff by himself most of the time. He bough a whole bunch of tools last year to do woodworking projects. We work on those together. He likes to rice solo on His motorcycle rides. I told hi I was going to get him a license plate that says wither "IGOSOLO" or IMALONR". We laugh about that, but it is very true.
Thanks for the info about the Patriot Guard.
I just got done transplanting some plants. Hubby is on a ride again today, but a much shorter one, maybe four hours. Enough time for me to get something done with my plants. A few weeks ago I weeded a big patch of ground behind my back fence. The neighbor that owns it is 84 and cannot do it. So I have done it for the past three years since they took two cedars down and left it open. Well, this time I got a really bad reaction to something in the dirt there (most likely the cedar chips left from the chain sawing. Well, both of my calves ended up severely blistered with an angry rash. I have needed to keep out of the dirt since then and have wrapped my legs with ace bandages over dressing pads to allow for healing. I have not returned to my vegetable garden since then because I need to turn over the soil to plant seeds. I am nearly healed from the rash, so I hope to get into the garden this next week.
Weird how sometimes you react to something and other times you don't.
Anyway, I appreciate your prayers and hope that you are doing well. Are you still living with your son?
*K..to original response of your kids & husband GiGi, "that's fantastic. Seems all is going well. Super happy for y'all. As for your husband & his free time, has he ever given it any thought into joining the Patriot Guard? He chooses when he rides or not to ride. I was in for a short time in Utah. Not only did we do parades, they get to be part in burning of many American flags..it's done in a 'very proper manner'.! They also do funerals for fellow Patriots & (I had to work but..) my fellow PGs were part of the ride in taking one of the last remaining "code talkers" to his resting place after his passing in May 2019. God bless & be with you both.