All Discussion PAGE 412

Good morning Chris,

I appreciate your comments. And I agree that there are verses which seem to indicate that God's punishment for sin is "conscious existence experiencing punishment that never ever has an end".

But ALL of the verses relating to the nature of God's Judgment must be considered and not isolated from anything and everything in the Bible that might relate. And this very definitely includes 1) what the Bible teaches about the Mercy of God, 2) any Laws God lays down regarding punishment, and 3) the fact that Christ spoke in parables.

I fully understand that correcting an understanding that has existed in the churches for centuries is a serious matter and should not be undertaken lightly or quickly.

I will attempt to address some of the specific comments related to this question over time, although I will not have all of the answers.

For now though, I will just ask us to consider the idea of an unsaved baby that dies at birth spending an eternity, consciously experiencing punishment that never ever ends; over against what the Bible teaches about the Mercy of God. And I am aware of no teaching in the Bible that would suggest otherwise if the conventional understanding of God's justice and judgment is correct.

May God open our understanding as we continue to search the scriptures.

Thanks Bro. Landry....Gbu....Much truth in what you are saying....

Gods peace "Linda" Believing is something absolutely amazing. I thought about it yesterday. And now.

Faith caused Blessed Peter to go into the water and want to follow Jesus, Jesus then walked on the water. Peter Sunk into the water. He would so fervently follow Jesus walk on the wather.

Paul was on one of his travels around the Mediterranean. He had come so far that he wanted to take a trip to Rome immediately.

What kind of faith are we talking about? That and don't do our will or have it nothing to say. When we go out in faith to our neighbor for example, this one will be healed from all his illnesses, in jesus name, but instead of repenting, throw neighbor u out of the house. Then one will think,,, this i did now was not from God! BUT

I believe the Lord is with you wherever you are. You can choose to do things for Him. There i try to testimony always! He is always there for u and me, everyone. But have I the faith to lay my hands on ppl so they can get well from all theyr sickness? Not always i say with shame. Please forgive me Lord Jesus. I want to. And do it sometimes. Becouse if i dont have the faith for it, it is not time for it jet. It may come some other time, and ill hope it will come with Deliverance. Everything has to happen to glory the Lord Jesus. Not me. Remember that and go in faith sister, and be sure of one thing. If the Holy Spirit tell u to do something. U do it! It will not be something u not are sure about. Example: It will be naturally for u to walk on wather then! Dont be afraid for something, The Living God is with u. Stay close to the word of God, i love u in Christ. We can pray, we can fast, we can have belive and faith. In everything we must give big thx to the Lord. Always thx for everything u have got. U have it from Him.

1 Thessalonians 1 chapter.

Is it offensive to Jesus and god for me to pray for something I want in life? For example, I prayed to Jesus for A nice bible of my own, and for a job, and I've asked to have a good woman that I can love and marry to be placed in my life. I am reading the bible each day and follow its teachings without deviation or interpretation. But I haven't figured out what I shouldn't ask from Jesus, I don't want to pervert the word of god or the love of Jesus by asking for material things, I will never ask for something shallow and meaningless like cars or wealth. But I want to stay connected to the lord and the world, I want to earn my place in life and in heaven, I can't tell if its wrong to ask the lord for help with finding work, a woman to love, and a bible.

The Church and beyond five senses: The spiritual dimension (cont).

In a worship service; there are weapons at our disposal but if we never take them out of our holsters they are as useful as stage props. Praise clearly in the right context unlocks great victories; from the Old Testament the victory at Jericho is one great example. We are instructed in Psalms how to worship with music (and even dancing in Psalm 149 and 150). This should also hopefully help us to transcend all the barriers in our hearts so we can focus on the Word and let it have its desired effect on us as individuals and as part of the corporate Body.

Here is one example of how something can be a powerful weapon in the spiritual realm; or conversely involve "shooting ourselves in the foot". We see many "declarations" that are uttered in worship music and in certain messages by worship leaders. If it is scripturally based on God's promises; then it is used rightly; the principles of God are eternal. But when men have their own agendas; particularly when doctrinal error or some enticement to sin (such as blessing financial contributions that are motivated by filthy lucre; or relationships outside of proper marriage vows) then we can't expect God to answer with what we want. When we play games like this; making God a sort of genie in a bottle; we open ourselves up to deception and ultimately destruction. Again; as in all things there is a certain truth within all error to render greater power to the poison.

Error ultimately not only results from engaging in such practices; but it also discourages those who wish to pray for what is the Lord's will. Such can be the case when someone is moved to pray for finances; for instance for needed projects such as the missions field; who may; for example involve petitioning the Lord for opportunities to expedite the Great Commission. The blessing of true sacrificial giving may be missed because of not challenging others in the other extreme.

Church: Beyond the five senses (continued)

My previous posts have discussed the extreme of overly legalistic churches vs those who are overly emotional; in short. Within a certain context; it is often helpful when one can experience the joy of the Lord when expressed more openly in a different type of fellowship on occasion as well as those from more expressive congregants to be introduced or reestablished with fellowship in more traditional worship. There is room for correction in either case; one extreme has the warnings of the Ephesian church abandoning their first love in Revelation 2:4-5; while there are sufficient warnings not only for order as in the Corinthians church but against false doctrines and "damnable heresies" such as 2 Peter 2:1 mentions.

This discussion; to reiterate is considering a true fellowship of worship sort of example and the various styles; preferences or modes of worship that often are commonplace and overlap; as stated in the introduction based on general parameters in scripture but as we shall see often influenced by culture in a given nation more than we may observe after being immersed in such traditions for a long time. To fast forward to the big picture let's look to the supernatural realm; specifically related to the angels and demons; under the authority of Christ and Satan and what a service is like in that dimension concurrent to our actions inside a church service on earth. The test of doctrine; for example shows how to test the spirits as to which ones proclaim Jesus has come in the flesh as opposed to those who deny it ( 1 John 4:2). That may define falsehood; but it is equally true that a church can be dead and lose its "candlestick" ( Rev. 2:5) so that as the Ephesians did; have all the right words but lose any effective power for change.

Briefly; worship must contain the truth reflecting God's character and unchanging attributes as well as express worship with all of the soul; body and mind ( Deut. 6:4-7)

Church: Beyond the five senses part one

The introduction concluded with a discussion on the law in scripture. I have found it refreshing that in most Reformed or Orthodox Presbyterian congregations the 10 Commandments are usually read toward the outset of a service on a weekly basis.

That would cover either a section in Deuteronomy or Exodus; and when in the order of service often elaborated on in the sermon in the New Testament as to the implications with the New Covenant of Grace. What is often missing in the services of say; a Baptist service is a call to penitence and repentance; which sometimes is inserted immediately before a Communion service. Any service which is missing such a call before that sacred event is in grave danger of sin; not warning those to come to the table in a manner worthy of such an event. Matthew 5:23 and 1 Cor. 11:27-29 should be sufficient to warn us of grave consequences of ignoring this warning. Similar admonitions can be given for Baptisms; weddings and membership vows.

Further scriptures show how those who are in authority as elders and deacons are to be sufficiently mature in their walk and conduct; and still more (especially Corinthians) give the marching orders to establish order in a service so we may go beyond being babes in our faith.

Just as the law isn't the end all of faith; rather Jesus the author and finisher thereof ( Heb. 12:2) we should of course have agape love toward one another as the preeminent thing; with phileo and other human affections flowing from that foundation.

The opposite extreme is churches which have at best sidelined and at worst abandoned doctrines of truth for another set of rules; where there is a focus on experience; emotional highs and other manifestations; or in short a creation is worshipped rather than the Creator. We can look at the Corinthians as a good example of a true church which although chaotic wasn't beyond correction; and a false church sold out to Mystery Babylon.

Dear Brother Dan , with reference to the two scriptures you gave me from Luke : Ch 12 V 4+5 the word used in the Greek is ghehenah and it refers to a valley just outside of Jerusalem , the valley of the son of Hinnom or Ge-Hinnom , its first mentioned in Joshua Ch 15 V 8 . Excavations in that very area seem to indicate that it was used in ancient times as a rubbish tip and an incinerator . That would explain the constant burning / fire . As we know , Jesus spoke in parables . As for Ch 16 V 22-25 , there is a fascinating article on a site , I don't know if I'm allowed to say it but I can say the writers name I think ? Dr Nicholas J . Schaser , the site is called Israel Bible Weekly and it's fab . According to him , I will try to keep this brief , we Christians make the mistake of thinking that the rich man is below Lazarus , when in fact they are both on the same level , to lift up one's eyes is an ancient Hebrew idiom , used also in Genesis Ch 22 V 4 + 13 , it means to scan the horizon , read the Genesis references and that will make it clearer . The hell of V 23 is Hades , Hades is where all the dead go ( the grave ) while they wait for the ressurection . The bosom of Abraham is to Jews , a place of peace , love and joy and comes from the Jewish book of Jubilees Ch 22 V 26 : the two of them ( Abraham and Jacob ) lay down in one bed and Jacob slept in Abraham's bosom . Lazarus experiences this in Hades as he awaits his ressurection . John Ch 1 V 18 could be referring either to God or Abraham as Jews often called Abraham their father . This also gives us a more significant understanding of John Ch 13 V 23 perhaps ? The article is excellent , as is the site . Remember Jesus spoke in parables that his listeners at that time would , hopefully , understand . More later .

Church: Beyond the five senses

Introduction: There is a prescribed manner of conduct in the Scriptures which give us a basic guideline of how to conduct ourselves in public worship. The ceremonial aspects involve; more or less an invocation to prayer and beginning the service; songs of thanksgiving; a sermon; and communion on a set schedule. That and other events such as weddings; funerals; outreach; recreational activities go on more or less on a rather predictable pattern.

As to how the individual interacts with the rest of the local Body present; wherever you go there tends to be a seating and greeting pattern; a mode of discussion when approaching the Pastor; deacons and anyone else with a position; and another one for the rest of the laypersons-often dictated by the proclivities of our personalities; and mutual interests or lack thereof. Ministries tend to have a rather predictable involvement; a few individuals do the majority of service oriented projects and prayer meetings; and one or two others do most of the greeting.

A careful analysis of what is written so far will expose the fact that these activities could go on in a church where the Lord is present; to almost any other religious and perhaps non religious meeting place. The fact is; in either case we tend to familiarize ourselves with what is familiar and sort of at our comfort level. We are in danger of putting form ahead of substance; and focusing on what our natural senses dictate rather than what God is trying to say to us.

The same could be said of the law in scriptures. It is vital to drive us to Christ; as Galatians 3:24 states but never has the power to save. We love its many facets as Psalm 119 explaines in great detail because it illuminates the design of God for a peaceful society and for a manner worthy of those calling themselves citizens of heaven. It is; of course justice and mercy which Jesus excoriated the Pharisees with in Matthew 23:23 as missing.

Dear Brother Dan , thankyou so much for replying to me . I do hope that everyone on here who participates in this topic can do so as respectfully as you have , it's a hot one I know :) . I've written down the references you posted and I'm going to go through each one today and hopefully get back to you tonight . There is that big question that I asked though , if the soul that sins dies , how can it be alive everlastingly in hell ? The gift of eternal life is given by God to those who believe in Him and in His Son . The wages of sin is death , so how do sinners end up with eternal life in a place of torture ? I would love someone , anyone to give me an answer to that question . I shall get back to you later regarding the references you posted . Thanks for engaging in this hot topic so openly and in such a friendly manner , I love to talk about these things but I'm afraid of things turning aggressive but I don't think I need to worry about that with you . Get back to you tonight .

remember me today in your prayers

Page 2. David0921

Or, the account of those three in hades: Lazarus, the rich man & Abraham. Was Jesus deceiving His disciples by instilling fear in them about eternity that the rich man was in torment in hell ( Luke 16:23,24)?; & this was only the first judgement - he had to still stand before God in the resurrection readied to be cast into eternal fire. If the full consequences of man's sin & rejection of his only hope from God for his salvation is rejected, can man ever expect any other Mercy after death?

And finally, I think I remember your comments from a while back, relating to how we use the Scriptures & I referred to biblical hermeneutics. I apologize if that wasn't you, but your name seems to stick in my mind. The comment I believe was 'the Bible in its entirety must be our ultimate authority, comparing Scripture with Scripture'. I do acknowledge the Scriptures that you believe support only a physical death at the end, as punishment, but I also gave you others, which you can look at above in this thread. I'm using the same rule that you gave us; how do those Scriptures & those that others here have given you, apply/complement/fall short of what you believe? Because of your earnestness to consider all of Scripture, I would be very interested as to how you bring these seemingly opposing Scriptures to your understanding. Thank you & blessings.

Page 1.

Thank you David0921 for your reply. I just wanted to confirm that this was your belief, even though you had mentioned, "When was the last time you heard a sermon that focused on the Judgment and Wrath of God for sin?" I couldn't imagine what this 'sermon' would have entailed, given what you earlier stated. And even now I wonder, if you were the preacher dealing with this subject of the spirit & soul's eternity, how you would describe the "Judgement and Wrath of God for sin"?

May I suggest that your message would simply be one of death, annihilation, to be forgotten forever? And if you had to share the Gospel with an unbeliever, this is also what you would tell him but that there is hope of an eternity of new sin-free life with his Creator & Redeemer? But he might ask, as I certainly would, 'if death is the only punishment for my sin, then don't WE ALL HAVE TO DIE SOME DAY?' 'And then if this resurrection into new eternal life is the blessing because of my turning away from sin unto a Savior, what would it matter to me if I were dead & never experience this new life since there is no knowledge of God or of eternity in the grave?'

In other words, to an unsaved person with no regard to his many (enjoyable) sins in this life, knowing that one day he will die & leave it all behind, why shouldn't he continue in such a state on Earth if only a physical death & no more was at his end? I know that in my previous life of much sin, this type of Gospel wouldn't have moved me at all - life in sin would be more preferable knowing that death would just mean a total cessation. But the Holy Spirit impressed upon me the nature of my sin, the Wrath of an Holy God towards sin, & the awful consequences to reject His Offer of Love & Forgiveness. Should I have refused (though in my situation with the burden of the Spirit, refusal wasn't an option), should I then expect that God would still show me favor with just a punishment of a death which comes to all anyway? to Pg 2

Thanks Brother.

I concur and God bless you in all that you do.

Be strong in the Lord.

Blessings.

Hi Brother Ronald.

Good to hear from you as always!

I was just emphasizing a portion of those verses that emphasizes everlasting punishment by the hands of the Lord.

( he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.)

Psalms 75:7-8. But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.

For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them.

God is Love but he is also a righteous Judge.

Torment is everlasting I believe because the heart of the wicked is everlasting and uncurably evil.

We have discussed my take on the Holyspirit restraining evil in

2 Thessalonians 2:6-7.

I mentioned that because man has no Idea how evil he really is apart from the restrainer/Holyspirit.

When the restraint on evil is taken out of the way you see a picture of man continuous rebellion even in the midst of torment in

Revelation 16:8-9.

I believe you and I along with others have discussed this in the past and I know we have different views on this however we respects one another view.

I believe Sasha had opposing views on this belief and was heavily engaged in these topics and later suze. Perhaps they're checking in from time to time!!

It's getting late Ronald,

Perhaps we will talk over the weekend.

God bless you.

God bless you.

Hi David.

My apologies brother, I may have taken that wrong.

Sorry for such a late response, I just made it home from off a long trip.

It's late here on the east coast.

I'm off to bed.

God bless you.

Hey S Spencer,

Not sure? You did not reply to anyone, but we have Jesus standing on Mount Zion just in front of Jerusalem with the 144000 firstfruits unto God and the Lamb. Firstfruits are the first that is sacrificed, this is just after or at Jesus's second coming.

This is after the ten nations destroy Babylon and whoever has worshiped the beast and taken his mark will drink of the wrath of God, so this wrath is after the second coming, and he/beast along with all who have worshiped him and taken his mark the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever as we see in Revelation 20:9.

When Jesus returns there will be no rest until all enemies are put under His feet. Am I off base?

Brother, not sure about your post help me understand.

God bless,

RLW

Giannis, I am in the same boat as you with my sons. They were brought up in the faith and walked away as teens. It has been over 20 years now, and I am still praying for them all to return to the Lord, as well as the person they are making a life with. I will continue to pray for your son, too.

I always am blessed by your posts. The board has been kind of spotty lately as far as robust conversations. And there have not been as many prayer requests and questions as was normally submitted. I hope this changes. I love hear from many different folks who have frequented this forum and I hope more who may be reading but not posting will also join the conversations with us.

All are welcome.

Hello GiGi

Thanks for your wishes. Well I'm facing some challenges lately but I and my samily are OK. I am just worrying about my son because time is going by and he shows no signs of coming back to God. Fortunately he has got some good mental brakes since he was born in a christian family and knows the Truth. I am here almost everyday, I just haven't posted any comment. I wish you all the best for your family. GBU

Hi FaithfullCairaway

Firstly we start from the Old Testament.

Jesus has said the story of the rich man and Lazarus who lived in the Old Testament era, Luke 16:31.

They both (their souls) went down inside the earth but in different compartments. The poor man Lazarus went to a place called Abraham's bosom (which means together with Abraham and all the saints of the Old Testament) were he was comforted.. At the same time the rich man (the sinner) went to hell were he was tormented. Why didn't the righteous people like Lazarus go into Heaven? Because Jesus had not been sacrificed yet so no people had the right to enter Heaven. It is Jesus' sacrifice that actually erases people's sins (even those of people who strive to live a righteous life) and that had not had occured yet.

After Jesus was resurrected from the dead He took the souls of the righteous people from Abraham's bosom and carried them into Heaven. How do we know that? Because in Rev 6:9-11 we see the souls of righteous people in Heaven, under the altar (which means under Jesus' sacrifice) inside God's Temple in Heaven. The sinners remain in Hell.

At the end of this world, after the resurrection of all people who lived since the begining of mankind,the final Judgement will be done by God. The righteous will go to live with God in the new earth He is going to create for them living happily for ever and ever. And the sinners will be thrown into the lake of fire and will be tormented for ever. see Rev 21

Matthew 25:34, "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand (the righteous), Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

Matthew 25:41, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand (the sinners) Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

GBU

Hi GiGi,

Things sound good. Your hubby, that is so cool, I used to ride in the 70s, still have M on my driver license. Love you guys.

God bless,

RLW

Ronald, glad you are keeping up with the conversations here.

My son, Brian, is in Singapore right now waiting for his wife to have her immigration interview next Wednesday. If it goes well then she will be able to come home with him with a green card visa.

My other son, Kevin, just became engaged to his fiance. She is from Kenya and is here completing her college dergree. They plan to get married July 7th. Her Visa expires in September, but it may be different for them since they will be married in the U.S.

So, we are hoping all goes well with her and her immigration also.

Thank you for keeping my sisters in your prayers. I have not spoken to them since last summer after my mom's passing. But i continue to pray for them.

My husband just finished his last work of week last week. Now he is officially retired. He is on a long motorcycle ride today. Left early in a.m. and will be home after dinner time tonight. he loves riding his motorcycle and now he can go any day he wishes.

Ronald, we always welcome your contribution here.

Hi GiGi,

Thank you for thinking of me, I am here every day, just not inspired to reply. Your son is in my prayers along with your sisters.

As long as our love is for each other we are ok.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Ronald, was thinking of you this morning. Glad to have you posting here today.

Revelation 14:10-11.

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

You are replying to a comment by "Bcjcta"

Jesus said Yes! Matthew 24

Starting from the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 c.e.

until he comes. Then there's God's Wrath coming against Satan the Devil (the Dragon, Serpent REV. chapter 12), Wild beast (Authorities, Kings, HORNS chapter 17,18), and False Religion (Babylon the Great, Prostitute Revelation 17:1-6; Revelation 20:1,10)

Revelation 17 spoken in illustration then the angel explains

Revelation 18 spoken in illustration how powerful Babylon the great is (False Religion:The Great City)

Revelation 22 spoken partly in illustration and then true talk at the end

Rather it's believed or not, the scriptures (The law passed from Heaven Psalm 83:18) has spoken. 2 Peter 1:20,21

Only time will tell

You are replying to a comment by "Bagwill" 5 days ago:

Where in the Bible does it say that it's okay for women to be preachers.

MOUNTHOREB REPLY: Woman can prophecy not new info outside of the scriptures 2 Timothy 3:15-17. However, They preach what they have learned to others outside of the church or congregation. When asked a question about the bible. a woman can reply to anyone who is asking the question. even if it's a man, elder 1 Timothy 3 or someone in authority. but within the church or congregation 1 Timothy 3, a woman does not have authority over a man to speak to the whole church or Congregation 1Timothy 2:11,12,14 (unless there's no men available, if this is the case she covers her head within the congregation to PREACH 1 Corinthians 11:5;16 because of the angels in heaven) however, Outside of the building, yes a woman can teach others outside (family, neighbors etc.) Acts 2:16,17.

Jesus allowed women to speak to him and listen. even sit at his feet and ask questions. he allowed woman to speak and listened to them. and to follow him as he preached. Luke 1:36-38; John 4:7-54; John 11:20-29; John 20:11-18; Acts 1:14; Luke 8:1-3; Luke 10:38-42; Romans 16:1-5; Acts 18:2; Acts 18:24-26;

In marriage: Ephesians 5:21-33

These are all the scriptures I can think of. Revelation 22:17 "Its free"

You are replying to a comment by "FaithfullCairaway" 2 days ago:

When we die do we automatically get to go to heaven or do we have to wait until the resurrection?

MountHoreb Reply: I personally can't recall at the moment Jesus giving any details

regarding The Apostles quick resurrection.

But We do have evidence of Jesus Resurrection Luke 24:46. when he died he was on the earth as an

invisible spirit Acts 1:3. Jesus as an invisible spirit ( john 4:24) has the ability to materialize into a human

Luke 24:3,5; Acts 1:9-11 . All angels Can transform themselves Luke 24:4; Luke 24:36

We also have an example of Apostle Stephen who was stoned by the infuriated High Priest.

he knew it meant his death for speaking the truth. notice what he said at Acts 7:54-60;

We have proof that Stephen appealed (prayed) to Jesus in Heaven Acts 7:59.

To no disappointment: Jehovah ( Psalm 83:18) Only selected or Chosen a few

to go to heaven according to Revelation 14:1,3. notice the scripture said "from Earth" (redeemed or taken from)

Not all are picked as presidents only one is. and there are those selected under him. Revelation 20:4,6

HOPE THE SCRIPTURES ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION: Psalm 37

You are replying to a comment by "Eric rod"

When you Say pre post, Do you mean signs?

Hi Jema,

Jesus tells us below - that we should fear God as He can cast us into hell.

Luke 12:4-5

4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Here a just a few of many verses stating that the unjust/unbeliever/unrepentant sinner will suffer for eternity in Hell.

Luke 16:22-25

Matt 25:41

Matt 3:12

Matt 25:46

Daniel 12:2

Mark 9:44-49

2 Thess 1:8-9

Rev 20:10

Rev 14:10-11

I know in the world we live in today, the popular belief among many preachers and Christians is that God is only good, kind, loving, and forgiving, and because of this - He will not throw anyone into Hell - to suffer for eternity. But that God will only leave us dead for eternity. This kind of teaching is false doctrine and does not conform to the bible, and Jesus own words. As Christian's we must always have a healthy fear of God.

Proverbs 1:7

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."

God tells us Hell is real!

Read and Believe!