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Jimbob,
Did you know that there were other English translations before the KJB? Were they also corrupt? Were the KJB translators King James Onlyists? Did they think that their translation alone was the word of God. Did they think that all previous translations were corrupt? Did they think that any translation written after theirs should be automatically discarded and labeled as being corrupt? I think these are valid questions. Can you please answer these?
You also ask me how would I know the difference between a corrupt translation and one that can be trusted? First of all, I will say that I trust the KJB. But there is no way that I can tell you that the KJB is a perfect word for word (no errors) translation without taking the same materials the translators used and testing putting them to the test. After all, we are told to test all things. But since I am not the one trying to prove that the KJB is the only translation that is the pure perfect word of God, and that all others are corrupt, perhaps maybe you can take this task on? And I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but 2 Timothy 4:3-4, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Jeremiah 23:36 have nothing to do with bible translations. You are also misapplying those verses.
Blessings to you also!
(Part 1):
Yes, I did contradict myself in what I said. I'm sorry for confusing you. I actually noticed it after I posted and later re-read my post. The first thing that popped into my mind was that you would catch that, and sure enough, you caught it. I thought about deleting that part and re-posting but decided to leave it as is. But since it confused you, I can repost that part if you would like me to?
You're asking me that if the holy men of God were the prophets of old, the apostles, and a few others as you said, will I please provide Scripture as proof of that?
Jimbob, the proof is in the same verse that you continue to misapply ( 2 Peter 1:21). One thing that I notice in the words "but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost," are the words "spake" and "were." Peter is showing past tense, not future tense. So, it makes much more sense to believe that Peter was speaking of the prophets and apostles, not the King James translators. To say that Peter is speaking about the KJB translators in 2 Peter 1:21 is totally false.
I stand by my statement that the KJB was not written as a standard to be used to prove the validity of other Bible translations." So, your question to me is "What if the KJB is the True Inspired Word of God?"
I'll give you the same answer I have given you before. The true inspired word of God was already in existence long before the KJB was published. If you don't believe it was, what did the translators use to produce the KJB? It is a translation, so it had to be translated from something. What did the translators use? Did they use anything written before 1600?
Our walk with Christ involves our spirit testifying with His Spirit that we are indeed children of God ( Romans 8:16). In actuality, I have that verse quoted backwards but it helps to bring home the message. Campus Crusade for Christ used to have as part of it's 4 points to the Gospel that our feelings should never be at the head of our decisions but faith in God. Christ is the captain of our salvation ( Heb. 2:10). Be thou my vision is an old hymn which typifies this concept. In our love for Christ and being part of His Body (the church) we should indeed have agape for one another; feelings as it were of love that is above and beyond this world and it's affections hence tranforming our minds. ( Romans 12:2).
Experientially; however we are prone to look at some nostalgia that somehow we can return to an Edenic state of innocence; as God has put eternity in our hearts. However; to live for ourselves is of course antithetical to living for Christ whichinvolves dying to self. However; the example of Christ being fully God and fully man demonstrates how real emotions of sadness or grief and indignation can be expressed as He sympathizes with us as our High Priest ( Heb. 4:14-16).
In a sense; we have the future hope in resurrection and the glory of the future rule and reign of Christ where we put our treasure. All things are good indeed if blessed by God; whether finding a wife; or meats etc. But sacrifice is something foreign to human nature; if we do such a deed in our own strength it is either to fulfill some longing we have; or for pride or some sort of satisfaction. What doesn't jive with humanism is revealing the root cause of sin; our sin nature and being willing to expose death so that indeed His chosen ones can have life. In the flesh we are only attracted to what our minds are attracted to with our five senses; the Lord operates outside that but we still react to it as vessels of His temple in us ( 1 Cor. 3:16-17).
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory
We are comforted by Jesus Christ in all things. You are loved by the Lord, for I am constantly reminded of you in my prayers.
Remember that you are valuable, it is easy to forget it. At least when we are out among non-believers. We can even be harmed by it. But never to death. My advice is that you take up on u the full armor of God on a daily basis. Ephesians 6 chapter. Never be discouraged, many depend on you.
God cares for you, He wants you to see it. And that you know it. We pray, I love u in Christ Jesus. Hallelujah God is good always.
Luke 24:20-22
Now back to Daniel speaking to Belshazzar, he tells him in ( Dan. 5:22) "O Belshazzar, hast no humbled thine heart, though thou knewest all this"
Daniel tells him he knew all about his father being driven from his kingdom until he knew that the most High ruled in the kingdom of men.
Nebuchadnezzar did praise and honour God in ( Dan. 4:34,37) His son knew all this and still ( Dan. 5:22-23) v23 "But thou lifted up thyself against the Lord of heaven" he also said "and thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, and brass, iron, wood, and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know: and the God in whose hand thy breath is, and whose are all thy ways, hast thou not glorified". These were his gods. That explains why Belshazzar said "the spirit of the gods".
Not my assumption or my private interpretation Chris.
Thanks and God Bless.
I find it interesting to the see reasoning for offerings today in comparison with tithes in the O.T. All the offerings in the O.T. were utilized (i.e. consumed as food by the priests); the focus of course being tied in with the Temple sacrifices whether necessary or "freewill" extra offerings. The support of the church today; as noted especially among the Corinthians is important for spreading the Gospel. We see how Paul "robbed other churches" ( 2 Cor. 11:8-9). If we follow the principle of giving out of our earnings; I would say that most can give ten percent. The issue today; of course is all the credit people have with interest or usury to pay off which is against Biblical principles for God's people.
I do believe the concept of sowing and reaping is valid; but obviously those who are greedy for gain in the televangelism world are using this concept for "filthy lucre" as the scriptures indicate. Money to the church should be as James put it minister as pure religion to the widow and orphan; as well as the practical needs of the congregation. This allows those in need to be helped; those who don't help their own are called worse than an infidel ( 1 Tim. 5:8). This holds churches accountable; as well as the laypersons to provide for their families if able.
As part of the Body of Christ the needs of those who are ministering should be first and foremost (the workman is worthy of his hire). Financial transparency needs to be straightforward with a church budget; we shouldn't take "on faith" what we are told as there are Judas types around who want a piece of the action for themselves.
The first thing that we have to do is to not allow the basic premise of Psychology be a tenet for guiding our lives. Frued; as you are probably aware had all kinds of conclusions as to the sensual aspects of man with a very limited set of those he studied. Obviously there is the bias that we are all like animals; hence all our actions are based on instincts with the idea of the survival of the fittest and other concepts that supposedly has allowed man to evolve to the state they are in now from the apes and other so called ancestors of man.
What is to be noted here is the enneagram which is basically a New Age concept along with other things that are supposed to determine what type of person we are. That is tied in with this philosophy. Basically; our behaviors are supposed to be conforming to our individual temperment; which is focusing on a man centered idea rather than submitting to Christ and thus dying to self with Christ making us into a new man.
The Lord gives spiritual gifts to those and distributes them according to His will ( 1 Cor. 12:11). I would say that He still tends to give us traits that mirror somewhat our individual nature; which although flawed and sinful originally was created by God who had us fearfully and wonderfully made as Psalm 139 states. In the Body of Christ; however we are transformed and therefore our affections as set to things above ( Colossians 3:2). We are given gifts in order to praise God and edify one another. We therefore do well to associate with others that have a different set of gifts; which is opposed to the "me first" mentality of those who have a humanistic world view and chiefly are concerned about satisfying their own wants and not focused on giving his life for his friends ( John 15:13).
Basically one concept exalts fallen man and the other focuses on Christ and His Kingdom.
And as far as the Greek NT is concerned, the translators are generally found in two camps. Those using the older Alexandrian manuscripts & those using the later Byzantine m/s (the Majority Text), of which the Textus Receptus (TR) comes. It is my understanding that the older m/s were not as reliable at the TR (from which we get our KJB), because of their inconsistencies, deletions & amendments. Even though this bodes well for the KJB, can we truly believe the KJB is a perfect Word, rather, one of the better translations to hand today? If we tenaciously hold onto the KJB as the faultless Bible from God, then we will miss those errors, however minor, in translation, inadvertently accepting error for Truth. And it is those errors, even in punctuation or incorrect word usage, that relegates all Bible translations into a place where much study & reference to the original languages is needed, which can only help us get closer to the Truth.
As for 2 Peter 1:21, I have to agree with bro Jesse, that this verse doesn't refer to Bible translators but to those men of God who were moved by God to record these precious words for us. Every blessing.
Should we then compel such folk as these Pakistani believers to learn English first, and 18th Century English at that, so that they would be subject only to the KJV & not be left in ignorance & in corrupted thought by reading their particular version? I think that would be an impossibility & therefore one should ask, 'why then should people who understand their own language, or even an easier English version, be side-lined for doing so'? If the KJV is the only true & correct Bible version fully inspired by God, then there are a great number of people all over the world who are unable to receive the Truth. Rather, God can take up His Own Word, however much other translations fall short of the true, & minister to hearts & lives.
And the KJV itself can never be that perfect translation since no modern language can always capture the intended meaning, nuances, grammar differences, etc. from the original. The KJV can come close to the original Scriptures, as does the LSV (Literal Standard Version) & its sister, Young's Literal Translation (YLT), but none are perfect. Then the question: 'how many differences must we allow between the original writings & the translated works, to make one believed to be the pure Word of God & the other a corrupt version'? This then becomes an extremely moot argument with each side basing their beliefs on what they've learnt or what they've been told to believe. Only an intensive examination will show the degree of departure from the original writings, but would both sides of the debate be willing to acquiesce to the other when based on facts?
To your comment now Jimbob. Your reference to the direct Words of the LORD ("Thus saith the LORD", and others): indeed, when such phrases are used, we know that the first recorders were compelled to write them down verbatim, or else the LORD would soon correct them (even as we see an example in Ezekiel 13:1-8). So here there is no problem. But what happens when these recorders such as Daniel, write down what they heard from those Babylonian kings? Do they need Divine Guidance to write, though certainly in need of God's Help to remember if the writing took place sometime after those events. So Divine Inspiration or even God's Word being wholly true & pure, must mean that God superintended over these recordings, ensuring that the recorders wrote exactly what God spoke or what they had seen or heard from others.
Now when it comes to translating the original writing to another language, it is true that God can still enable men, however much they might be lacking in some of the exacting skills to do the work, but the end product can only be the best that both language & abilities allow. A case in point but with a question first: how would you feel about the Bible (say the KJV) being translated into another language aside from English? I'm a little familiar with the Urdu Bible (the one used by Christians in Pakistan). When sharing from the Word & going through my message with my interpreter, I checked the verse 1 John 4:10 with him. I asked, 'What word would he use for 'propitiation' (a difficult seldom-used word) & what did that word mean to him & others? He said, 'the word in Urdu was 'kafara' & meant 'atonement'. I then asked if there could be any further meaning or thought to this word & he gave a definite No. I then explained to him the proper meaning of propitiation & he admitted that he had never heard of this explanation & there was no word in Urdu to describe the 'Anger of the LORD being turned aside or averted'. That was a fruitful time for all.
This is really interesting.
Figure up how old o bamah was when he left office.
Born 8-4-61
Left 1-20-17
Don't forget to add the 29th day of February.
( Rev. 13:16-18)
You mentioned here, "Nebuchadnezzar had a son to reign after him who did not know God". In light of what you wrote just before this, is it your assumption that Nebuchadnezzar did know the true God? Maybe I have again misunderstood you, given a verse such as Daniel 2:2. True, after Daniel interpreted the king's dream, the king developed a new understanding of Daniel's God, but in Daniel 2:47, it would be difficult for me to believe that the king rejected all his gods to believe in & serve the True God. I guess this would fall into the category of one's personal interpretation of that passage.
So Daniel 5:14 still remains confusing; as to why the LORD would permit 'the spirit of the gods' to be written here & in Daniel 3:25 He should permit "the Son of God" - regardless of which king was referred to.
I'll now get to your other comment Jimbob.
Yes, all this is Definity happening today. fo instance the book of Matthew 24 the rumors of wars and wars we can see that increasing Infront of eyes. Earth quick and many things.
in the book of John 4:181
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
hence, we see the raise of the false preacher but in droves.
So, all this is happening, and others will happen Amen.
There were the manuscripts in Hebrew for the Old Testament. Right? They were written down, documented. (Thus saith the LORD) (The word of the LORD came unto me, saying) (Then came the word of the LORD) (Thus saith the LORD of hosts) (Thus saith the LORD God) The LORD spoke to them personally to document His Words.
What about the Greek the New Testament? We don't have them other than in the Bibles that we use?
God preserved His Word "from this generation for ever" so the final generations would have those pure, preserved, Inspired Words of God. The only way we could have those pure Words today is if God used men to translate those Words into another language, like the English language. (holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost)
The reason the KJB is the most printed book is because God was and is in control of His Words being translated, ( 2 Pet. 1:19-21) and distributed for this time period, or else we would have nothing but deception in this time period. Satan would have a field day deceiving people without the TRUE Inspired Word of God.
( Ps. 12:6-7) v6 His Words are pure. v7 His Words are preserved for ever.
( Prov. 30:5-6) v5 Every Word of God is pure. v6 Add thou not unto His Words. (If we are told to "Add thou not unto His Words, then we would have to have His Words, Right)?
( Rev. 22:18-19) These verses clearly tell us we should not add to, nor take away from the words of the book of this prophecy.
( Jn. 17:17) "thy word is truth"
( Jn. 14:23) "If a man love me, he will keep my words"
( Rev. 1:3) "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear ((the words of this prophecy)) and keep those things ((which are written therein))"
Thank you again, Blessing to you Chris.
You asked me "But what would you say if you found out that the KJB is not the bestselling translation?"
I would say the Word of God is being fulfilled more everyday. These verses tell us that will happen in the Lastdays.
( 2 Tim. 4:3-4) and also ( 1 Tim. 4:1)
You said "I do believe there are some "corrupt" translations out there (not ALL as you say) I also believe there are some good translations out there that can be trusted"
My question to you would be this, How do you know the difference then between the two?
We have to use the Word of God to show us the Truth from the deception. The difference between the good and the bad. If there are doctrines of devils, and doctrine that is not "sound doctrine" then we should rely on God's Word to show us the difference between His True Word, and the doctrine thats not sound!
Thats what I'm doing when I use ( Jer. 23:36) Any Scripture that changes their words would be corrupt, not sound doctrine.
Its not my opinion its from the Word of God.
And ( 2 Pet. 1:19-21) The (prophecy) came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
If this is the translators in 1611 (which it is) (bringing forth) the (prophecy, the pure, preserved Word of God) then that makes the KJB the True Inspired Words of the LORD preserved for ever.
( 2 Tim. 3:16) Tells us All ((Scripture is given by inspiration of God)) (Scripture)) (is God breathed). If the KJB is that Scripture then that makes all other scripture corrupt words, or changed words of men. Those men were not inspired by God but they were (moved) by the Holy Ghost. The word (moved) is #5342; it means to "bear" or carry, bring (forth).
They brought forth the Words of the LORD in the KJB.
Blessing to you Jesse.
Then later on you said speaking of ( Dan. 3:25) neither the KJB nor the Niv is considered sound doctrine. You even said the book of Daniel is not doctrine? The word (doctrine) is either #1319 or 1322 in Greek; 1319; means instruction (the function or the information) doctrine, learning, teaching. 1322; means instruction (the act or the matter) doctrine, hath been taught.
So (doctrine) is our instruction, what we learn from, what we teach from. Our doctrine is the Bible we use and get instruction from. The book of Daniel is doctrine, it has a lot of prophecy in it even for the Lastdays.
You have said several times that I keep "misapplying" ( 2 Pet. 1:21) This verse tells us "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost"
The word (prophecy) is #4394; it means ("prophecy") prediction (scriptural or other). How much (prophecy) would you say is in the New Testament? The book of Daniel also has much (prophecy) wouldn't you say Jesse?
This (prophecy) is what the holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. The word (spake) is #2980; it means to talk, utter words, speak (after) to lay forth, (fig) relate in words (usually of systematic or set discourse) describe, put forth. Jesse if the holy men of God were the prophets of old, the apostles, and a few others as you said, will you please provide Scripture as proof of that?
You said I have not provided Scripture showing All modern versions are corrupt.
I have provided many verses but this one proves it Jesse. ( Jer. 23:36) The word (perverted) is #2015; it means (TO CHANGE) In context this verse is saying they changed the Words of the living God! ALL modern versions are guilty!
p2 soon. Blessings.
Many kings of Israel during the OT were good kings who served God, and many had sons to come up and reign who fell away and did not serve God. It would not be unusual to see this in the book of Daniel. As it did happen here.
Nebuchadnezzar had a son to reign after him who did not know God.
Seeing this may give you a better understanding of these chapters Chris.
This is short but I don't have time now to finish it, I will try to finish up on this later today.
I'll get back to you and also Jesse as soon as I can.
The Word of God is Amazing, it is Alive.
God Bless you.
Thank you.
.....They met him in the air/wind on the day of Pentecost Acts 2:2...but that Mighty rushing wind/air was the H.G. which is spirit....Not A LITERAL AIR OR WIND....But the Spirit....As the gift of God is the H.G. which is Spirit ....Thus we meet him in the spirit right here on this earth....As the kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdoms of our Lord and his Christ...And he shall reign for ever and ever... Rev 11:15...Thank you Jesus....