All Discussion PAGE 443

John P thank you for your kind words John. I am also grateful for you and everyone else on this site for sharing the Word of God. Iron sharpens Iron! I really don't know how Paul came into this conversation but I do have to disagree with your meaning of the word clouds John. It does say that in ( Heb. 12:1) But that is the only place Paul said a cloud of witnesses.. We cant say Paul meant a cloud of witnesses in every place he mentions in the clouds if we are to keep those verses in context. Even back in ( Dan. 7:13) it says "one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven". In ( Acts. 1:9-11) We are told in v9 "he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight" and in v11 We are told "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven" (He was taken up and a cloud received Him, so He will return in like manner, in, or with a cloud) The harvest of the church is ( Rev. 14:14-16) v14 "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man" v15 Tells us "Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time has come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe" (The harvest is by the Son of man (Jesus Christ) who sat on a white cloud) We need to keep these verses in context John. ( 1 Thess. 4:13-17) v17 Tells us "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds" ("to meet the Lord in the air") (We meet Him in the clouds) ( 1 Cor. 15:51-54) Is the same event, when we meet Him in the clouds our bodies will be changed to spiritual bodies. This happens in ( Mt. 24:29-31) "Immediately after the tribulation" v30 "and they shall see the Son of man (Jesus Christ) coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory". Jesus does come in the clouds John. If I'm not mistaken I studied with the same Pastor you did for many years, this is one thing he did get wrong. Thank you John for your comment. Many Blessings.

Hey S Spencer,

Thanks brother, better late than sorry Ha! Ha! That is something an old man like me would say, love you brother. If we look at the word man it is not man it is oudeis and outheis, oudemia, ouden and outhen the meaning, no one, none, nothing, the same word is used in vs 4 the only one who could do what Jesus our savior could do as a man.

My understanding is only Jesus the Son of God could do what He did as a man like you and me and not an angel or any other being, but the Son of God could have done as a man giving His life for us. He lived a perfect life something me or you cannot do. This in my understanding does not show we go to heaven.

God bless,

RLW

Richard H Priday We are living some interesting times today, and the Bible tells us everything that will happen as if we were reading tomorrows news paper. This is a timeline as I see things happening today and in the near future, if you dont mind Richard. The prophecies of the Word of God are being fulfilled daily. I see us as being very close to the great tribulation starting. I think that's the last 3 1/2 year time period which God has promised to shorten for the elect's sake. I do believe we will be here for great tribulation, and like I said I think it will be soon. You said a false peace was confirmed with many during ( Dan. 9:27) This verse does not say its a peace treaty. It does say he will confirm a covenant with many for one week. This is the antichrist confirming this covenant for 7 years but it doesn't say the 7 years will be completed. God will shorten that last 3 1/2 years for the elect's sake. I believe the first 3 1/2 years are the beginning of sorrows in ( Mt. 24:4-12) I do believe we have been living in it for what I would say is 2 to 3 years. So what I see is the great tribulation period about to start but its going to be shortened for the elect's sake. I don't see any 7 year time period written definitively that could not be shortened by ( Mt. 24:21-22) The great tribulation time period is what God shortens. That is the last 3 1/2 years. ( Dan. 9:27) Tells us "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate" (In the midst of the week is half way, 3 1/2 years into it) In ( Mt. 24:15,21,22) v15 ""When ye therefore see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand;") (This is the Half way point) v21-22 "For then shall be great tribulation" The last 3 1/2 year time period is great tribulation, thats when Satan is cast out of heaven to the earth ( Rev. 12:7-9) Blessings Richard.

Jimbob, I am grateful for you and all of our brothers and sisters who are carrying forward the word of God. I will say what I believe what Paul was saying. Every person that preaches must be checked out in the word of God. There are many false prophets in the world today. They could be considered the same as most judges of today. Most judges go by precedent, not law, most preachers go by hearsay and not God's word. They rip The Word apart and makeup their stories, their sermon as they want. They do not know who Paul was, they only think they do. A lot want to take him out of the bible completely.

Paul was saying 'go forth and preach the true word of God, we cannot 'save anyone' but we can sure plant the seeds and God is the only one who can make them grow.

Paul spoke many tongues or languages; among them he spoke the common man's Greek or what we would call street talk today.

We say 'Paul wrote most of the new testament'. It was Luke who did most of the writing but those words God would give Paul to speak, Luke would write.

We can see how he would use the word 'cloud or clouds' in Heb. 12:1. Seems he would use it more than once as 'a cloud of witnesses'.

So seeing how God's word can be tourn apart by false prophets as in 1st Thessalonians 4, where most false prophets would get the 'rapture' from, when the word 'rapture' is not even in the word of God, Paul again would use the word 'cloud': he would say,

we would see Jesus 'coming in clouds', meaning in a cloud of witness. If we read from verse 13 to the end of the chapter. We will then see in verse 15 the word 'prevent' meaning we cannot be 'before them'. Why? We are standing on earth and they are with Christ. So we will also be changed into the spiritual body in the wink of the eye. May God bless us, everyone.

Hi Ronald.

I was going through some old replies that I haven't read and here's a question you asked me that I never answered.

Your question was;

Is there any verse in the Bible that says at any time we go to heaven?

There's verses in the Bible that look ahead and show us "IN" heaven. Revelation 5:3 AND NO MAN in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

Also read all of ch 5.

Better late then never.

God bless.

Our present reality

It is sobering to look at the history of great kingdoms such as Rome and the eventual downfall by corruption within. I have read about many similar events as to today in America that caused Rome to fall; such as many government type handouts; and of course licensiousness sexually. There is even a theory about the verse Luke 17:27 that there may have been same sex unions in the past that is being referred to.

Certainly Sodom and the surrounding cities shows a similar pattern to today. We should take note of Lot there; who decided to settle originally in the fertile plain; allowing appearances with his eyes to be what drove his decision to move there in the first place; while Abraham sought a better country as it were; and had promises not fulfilled in his lifetime through his progeny. The same concept of course brought Moses out of Egypt to wander in the wilderness for 40 years in what should have been a journey of a few months.

The pride that came before the fall of course is a sin associated with sodomy amongst other things. As I alluded to previously; the first seal of Revelation comes before war; famine and pestilence; a false peace confirmed with many according to Daniel 9:27. There has not been a mesmerizing orator since the time of Hitler and perhaps Mousallini in World War two that was able to conquer so quickly; gone are the Napoleans of the past. As Daniel states in chapter 8; verse 23 rulers will become completely wicked in that time when Antichrist; a man of intrigue arises. The one world religion will also promote the one world government. Through peace he shall destroy many ( Daniel 8:25). With world economies dissolving; and the removal of the ancient landmarks ( Prov. 22:28); no doubt he will realign the nations when he "divides the land for gain" ( Dan. 11:39) and that with the help of a "strange god."

Some think we can tough it out in the Tribulation. Let's not be there if we can avoid it!!

Agape.

The subject of hell-A necessary discussion

I have had a situation where a brother attending our church in small group has expressed doubts as to whether the lost remain in hell forever; as well as whether there is a state of "soul sleep" between the death of the body and our Resurrection.

This isn't the first time I've run into someone who felt that there was a "soul sleep" due to verses describing what appears at first glance to verify that theory. The answer lies in the meaning of the passage as to the word "qeber" which indicates the body ceasing to exist and "sheol" which is the realm of the underworld (in O.T. times where all went before the Resurrection allowed Satan not to hold the power of death). ( Heb. 2:14-15; Psalm 68:18; Matt. 27:52-53).

A logical analysis would determine that if we did cease to exist; there would no longer be wrath against us so that if we were to revive and we didn't exist for a time; then He would suddenly have to rekindle wrath; and also have to take into account the time when we weren't around as we couldn't still have a sin nature in that case. It also nullifies what appears to be a real account of Lazarus and the rich man in hell where Abraham was mentioned; along with those who appeared at the Transfiguration having to be explained away as some apparation.

It also puts a major damper on our evangelism. What kind of conviction do we have if the messenger is in doubt of God's Word in such a metter? There are dozens of mentions of hell even in the Old Testament in Psalms; as well as the account in Numbers where Korah and his immediate family was taken alive to hell ( Numbers 16:32-33). I haven't seen the stats on that subject but with the rejection of many key doctrines by today's so called "evangelicals" I would bet at least half don't believe in a literal hell.

In short to not include hell with heaven is like cutting all verses about the wicked attached to ones about the righteous; decimating Psalms.

The Rapture

According to 1 Corinthians 15:22 at the last trump the Lord comes for His church. Some say that Matthew 24:36 is referring to that day that no man knows the day and hour as being the Jewish feast of Trumpets. There could be something to that; with Christ fulfilling the Spring feasts already; namely the Passover lamb sacrificed for us; and the Pentecost ascension which; by the way was always celebrated on the "8th day" of the week.

As my last post indicates; there is little talk today among most professing believers of the Rapture. We see what could be an analogy of a separation or Rapture of some in Luke 12:45 where the watchmen is beaten by his fellow sorkers. There is even some say that same pattern in Song of Solomon 5:7.

Luke 21:36 instructs us to pray that we are worthy to escape all these things and to stand before the Son of Man. The original language uses the word "agonia" or something to that affect. Clearly; not all believers are praying in such a manner which questions their walk with God as to either their salvation or their position of readiness. I have probably presented some ideas last year as to whether all Christians are raptured or if some have to go through some of the Tribulation. What is certain is that these warnings; along with Revelation 3:10 are for those who are awake and waiting which I contended in my last posting that Malachi 3:16 spoke of.

Whatever our eschatology; fearing God and anticipating His arrival isn't restricted to those who hold a Pretribulational and Premillenial viewpoint. I have fellowshipped with Amillenials and Post Millenials who had more conviction about Christ coming as well as the terrible judgments on the earth than those who claim what I espouse; namely the Rapture followed by the 7 Year Tribulation and a Millennial rule of Christ before the eternal new earth. Even if I could press my viewpoint it isn't worth splitting hairs; we should all look to the scriptures daily.

Jimbob, you did not them one of the most important characters to compare the KJV and Niv.

That is Ezekiel Chapter 13, starting with verse 15 or 16, 'I am against those who teach my children to fly to save their souls'.

Richard H Priday thank you for your comment. I'd like to ask you a question Richard if you don't mind, in your response you stated that you believe there is truth in both statements.

Do you believe we have God's pure, preserved Word today? As the LORD promised in ( Ps. 12:6-7) to be preserved for ever.

Richard H Priday thank you for your comment. This is a comparison of these verses only. Both cannot be Truth! If we Believe the Words of the LORD are pure and preserved words for ever, like ( Ps. 12:6-7) promises they will be then we do have those pure preserved Words somewhere today. If not the Word of God would be a lie. Thats not possible, God cannot lie! It doesn't matter if other translations are older than the KJB, if God preserved His Words for ever then whatever was used for that pure, preserved translation are the ones that were and are Inspired by God. The KJB took 7 years to translate, ( Ps. 12:6) The words of the LORD is the subject in this verse and it tells us "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth ((purified seven times)). A (time) in the Bible is 1 year (purified seven times is purified 7 years the exact time period it took to translate the KJB) 7 years! The KJB is in perfect alignment with the Original languages. All the modern versions take that away by changing their words, they also remove complete verses.

Here's a good example of them leaving out a verse.

The KJB in ( Mk. 15:28) Tells us "And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors"

The Proof of the fulfillment of this verse is from ( Isaiah. 53:12)

The Niv removed ( Mk. 15:28) completely.

A verse that is showing us, and also is proof of scripture being fulfilled is removed by the Niv.

Why would they remove that verse if their words are Inspired by God? Their words are perverted, they are changed which makes them words of men that are not Inspired by God. If we Believe in God then how can we not Believe God's Words are True? Every Word of God is pure. ( Ps. 12:6-7) ( Proverbs. 30:5-6) Add thou not unto his words.

( Rev. 22:18-19) The penalty for adding to and taking away from God's Words is very severe.

Thank you for your comment Richard. Blessings.

Hey Chris,

Thanks again, I hope you don't mind, I understand you are done with this, and this is not to drag this on, a tit-for-tat and there is no need to reply. I usually keep posts short, but I feel I left things out and this will be it for this topic. Thanks again for the light on John 3:13.

The Priests and Pharisees kept on pushing Jesus for signs and proof and they were dead set on killing Him from early in Jesus' ministry. Jesus told them in John 8:28-29 that they would know He was the Messiah the Son of God and those things that happened when He died were proof for them. In John 5:25 "the hour is coming and now is,"

My understanding of the saints that came out of their graves was the same as Jairus's daughter, the widow of Nain's son. and Lazarus, when Jesus cried out caused all those things to happen and the saints came out of their graves and went into the city. Not in their glorified bodies but like Lazarus and the others.

In Matt. 27:54 They saw all these things happen they feared greatly saying "Truly this was the Son of God." The priests and Pharisees knew then they just killed the Messiah the Son of God. That is why they went to Pilate to guard the tomb, Matt. 27:62-66, as we see the disciples in shock still not knowing Jesus was going to be resurrected. The priests even with big money paid off the soldiers to tell a lie, Matt. 28:11-15.

Jesus is the Firstfruits and my understanding is He is the only one who has been resurrected with a glorified body until He returns.

God bless,

RLW

Hello Spencer, Chris and Alex.

I haven't got any free time to go through your posts now (I just had a look at them) but I hope I will be you with you tomorrow or most propably during the weekend.

GBU

Assessing where we are now.

Not knowing the day or hour is something we must live with. I will preface this segment by saying that it seems there are very few in churches these days proclaiming the Day of the Lord is imminent; let alone the Rapture. Again; as I stated in my last commentary when we assumed 1948 had to be the beginning of the last generation and the Lord hasn't come yet instead of letting that argument die we have kind of assumed that now that the cat is out of the bag that no one cares to discuss what appears to be a glaring contradiction of proper interpretation. The world; however seems far more interested in the end times and what is coming to ;pass than much of the professing church these days from what I can tell.

Today; we have in the Mideast the initial unveiling of a huge facility in Dubai where there is a synagogue; mosque and church and a one world monotheistic religious complex has been started (with Papal blessing). We also are at the edge of our dollar collapsing along with that of many governments; electronic currency and cashless societies already pretty much taken over in India as well as new currencies based on gold in Russia; China and Iran. It would seem from scripture that the final world system may begin with such a currency before heading to the Mark of the Beast.

I have said it before and will repeat that FIRST comes false peace as the first seal in Revelation indicates. We have already seen the "Abraham accords" and that likely will continue to advance until the "covenant with many" is confirmed ( Daniel 9:27). These things must come to pass; as the Rapture as well as the Revelation 4 indicates must occur "after these things."

There are a few who are as the stars in the sky; a few; a remnant who are burdened over all the evil and discuss these things anticipating Christ's return (see Malachi 3). God has a book for those in remembrance who will be raptured out before His judgments come forth. That weknow

Considering the times

Matthew 24:30 talks about the sign of the Son of Man; followed by the well known verse 34 about this generation not passing until all these things come to pass.

Psalm 90:10 seems to show the limit of a generation as being 80 years at most. If 1948 was the sign of the fig tree; that means that the Lord should return by 2028; obviously with a 7 year Tribulation and being currently in 2023 that can't happen.

One possible interpretation is that the Revelation 6 sign where the nations know the wrath of God and Christ is about to start would be what the sign is referring to not the actual physical return at Armageddon. Preterists are right at least to AD 70 and certain signs that showed the destruction of the Temple in the generational timeframe within 40 years of the crucifixion. Thus; we need to assume a double fulfillment which much prophecy indeed refers to.

Some have proposed 1967 and the recapture of Jerusalem as the date referred to. Even if that's the case it doesn't leave much more time; as we are already 56 years from that date and at least 63 years past then if he returns say in 2030.

Another theory I have is that the final generation may not BEGIN until the " Psalm 83" war which is an invasion of the nations immediately surrounding Israel which are NOT mentioned in the Ezekiel 38 war. There is also some confusion on the timing of Ezekiel 38-I will just say that there are some similarities to the battle (so called) after the Millenium with some important differences.

At any rate; we must realistically assess if we have been wrong assuming 1948; as many have already fallen away since 1988 came and went along with many other dates announced as to when "it had to happen by then." Many more have gone Postmillennial in their doctrines in recent years as a response I would expect. We certainly need as a minimum to believe in the literal physical return of Christ. That is the bottom line.

Again; there are verses in Psalms as to the wicked prospering where God shows their ultimate end (See Psalm 73:22). We could also look to the book of James on the gold and silver rotting in the last days; or Christ's warnings about the rich man who built more barns for himself; or Lazarus and the rich man in the afterlife. Many wicked become prosperous; and if our treasure is not in heavenly places we are setting ourselves up for disaster. It does seem like an odd translation.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Greek often has multiple meanings which cannot be put into the English language without it seeming choppy. I'm not sure about Hebrew; but of course there can be multiple manuscripts. Keep in mind also that the Geneva Bible and Tyndale came out BEFORE KJV and perhaps there are African translations much older than that which are available to us today. Also old English can have different words than we are used to with modern language that may seem to have a different meaning.

I would tend to think there is truth in both statements; which is often the case in different aspects with different translations. That being said; there have been a fair number of scriptures in NIV that seem to diminish the emphasis on the Godhead in regard to Christ for example.

I would state that the nation of Israel; that one third that goes through the fire ( Zech 13:9) would be indicative of those who make it through and are physically preserved (as opposed to the other 2/3 who perish). So in terms of the individual, it is different as to whether they will turn to God or else follow Antichrist. God has a predestined plan due to covenants with the nation of Israel as well as predestined plans for those who the Father has given to the Son according to many verses in the Gospel of John. The time of "Jacob's trouble" certainly is the focus of Daniel's "70th week."

Asking for strong protection and breakthrough for us and all in need. Lord Jesus please fight our battles. Thank you.

Thank you so much Gigi! Thank you for your prayers and also your words of encouragement. Teenagers have it really tough in our world today. I hear of so many struggling but the Lord is able to deliver. Thank you again. Praying for you.

I do pray that God will take control of the situation he's very powerful I pray that these people will change their ways and ask forgiven for what they have done if not there is two places there's a nice place there is the bad place I pray this in Jesus name

I pray in Jesus name that you get your job

John P thank you for your response. You said arguing the KJV serves no purpose. I agree arguing serves no purpose John. But what would you say ( 2 Tim. 4:3-4) is referring to? "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine"

(Where could that doctrine be today that's not (sound doctrine)? The Truth does matter John.

( Jer. 23:36) Tells us "for ye have (perverted) the words of the living God"

The word (perverted) is #2015; it means to turn about or over, to change, overturn, pervert, change.

This verse is saying ye have (changed) the words of the living God, this is prophecy for us today also you did agree with that in your comment.

The Words of the LORD are pure Words ( Ps. 12:6-7) Not to be added to ( Proverbs. 30:5-6) lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

The word (pure) is #2889; it means to be pure, sound, unadulterated, uncontaminated, morally innocent or holy.

If the words of the LORD are added to or changed then those words become doctrine that's not sound, they are contaminated, they are not pure anymore. All the modern version Bibles especially as many as we have today cannot possibly be sound doctrine, they are (perverted) = they have all changed their words, they are no longer pure words. They do not align with the Original languages like the KJB does which to me shows a second witness in the languages.

( Rev. 22:18-19) Tells us what God thinks about adding to or taking away from His Words.

Again thank you for your comment John. Many Blessings.

Another comparison of 2 Bibles. The KJB and the Niv.

1st the KJB.

( Ps. 10:4-5) v4 Tells us the subject is "The wicked" v5 Tells us "His ways are always grievous".

The word (grievous) is #2342; it means to pervert, pained, (be) sorrow (-ful) travail (with pain) tremble, be wounded.

2nd the Niv.

( Ps. 10:4-5 Niv) v4 the Niv says "In his pride the wicked does not seek him; In all his thoughts there is no room for God".

v5 Tells us "His ways are always prosperous". The Niv is saying the ways of the wicked are always (prosperous).

Now seeing as God is not the author of confusion, ( 1 Cor. 14:33) The word (confusion) is #181; it means instability, i.e. disorder, inconstant.

Which of these verses or Bibles would you trust?

And once again ( Proverbs. 30:5-6) v6 seems to be proving the Niv to be a liar.

How many of you put your trust in someone who lies to you?

Blessings.

Children love animals. I believe God loves his animal also. Animals will be in the third heaven age. In Ezk. we are told the child plays with the adder (snake), and the bear and sheep are there.

Chris thank you for your response. Its easy to find this information on nasa's website, you just google the path of the 2017, and the 2024 eclipse and it will bring it up. I'm sorry I probably could have worded that a little better Chris, after the two eclipses cross the Nation the center point, (where they intersect) is right in the middle of the Nation. You could also google "seven Salem's of the 2017 eclipse". Thats also really interesting along with the intersecting point of the two is western Kentucky right over the New Madrid earthquake fault line. Is God getting ready to do something really big in this country? It would seem so! Again thank you Chris.

Looking forward to your next response if you do some research on this. Blessings.

Good day and peace Lisanne. When Moses was in Egypt and the first born were killed, God gave instruction to mark the door posts and the top, a sign of the cross? They were spared from trial by following God's instruction. The point I am trying to make is God protected the Israelites (chosen ones) from his wrath. Yes, I believe we will be changed and raised to meet Him in the air; no one knows the hour. Christian's will go through some form of tribulation, and by following God's instruction, we will also be spared from His wrath. God is with us.

I am sorry for not asking my question more like "When God chose New Testament words, koine Greek, the language of the common people, was chosen. Would this choice be contradicted with an uncommon 'Thou shalt not', etc.?"

Jimbob I did not mean to sound over zealous, forgive me if I did. I do believe that this prophecy is meant for all times. I also believe that arguing the KJV serves no purpose.

This reply is meant for you and all the family. (all God's children).

Hiya Giannis....I think its by faith that we know we have been impregnated by his good seed the living word...Our whole spritual make up changes when we are with Child of the H.G...Thats when we have the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen...Nobody can see what we have in the spirit....But we can feel the Child moving in our spirit...which is the H.G. That Child of promise...At first its just an infant spirit that cannot speak...and sorrows have filled our hearts b/c of his Words as Jesus said....When a woman is in travail she has sorrows but after the Child comes her sorrows are turned into Joy...Whosoever receiveth one such child in my name receiveth ME....And it was b/c of his words which are his seeds they were impregnated by his Voice.....Thats y Peter was saying being bornagain by an incorruptible seed even by the words of God that liveth and abideth for ever....But there has to be a time of gestation spritually speaking...From the time he breathe on them sowing the good seed (his breath his word) to the time of Pentecost when the H.G. CAME IT WAS LIKE 50 DAYS....A time of sorrows that was turned into a time of joy....But thats what faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen....A spritual pregnancy...gbu

Yes Jim,

I do agree, all prophecies are meant for us today, and to the end, especially this one. I also believe the pulpit will be the first to be judged. God Bless