King James Bible
King James Version (KJV)
All Discussion PAGE 444
Viewing page: 444 of 6006
< Previous Discussion Page Next Discussion Page >
434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Posting comments is currently unavailable due to high demand on the server.
Please check back in an hour or more. Thank you for your patience!
I believe where we got off track is we're forgetting to mention an important aspect of the topic.
The Church!
John was the forerunner for Christ. He came to the Jews to prepare them.
The kingdom was at hand.
John performed the baptism of repentance.
The jews rejected their Messiah.
That brings us to Pentecost ( The birth of the Church. )
Then as Paul says in Romans, Salvation went to the Gentiles.
This is where the function of the Holyspirit is different from the way it moved people before the resurrection.
Hebrews 8:8-13.
In the old and new testament it takes the Spirit of God to save a soul.
We were giving the difference between new testament water baptism and baptism of the Holyspirit.
Only one puts Jews and Gentiles in the body of Christ and only one saves reveals and seals.
CONCLUSION.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. Hebrews 8:10-11.
GB
We are sealed by the Spirit.
Ephesians 4:30.
Here's the contrast to that.
Matthew 13:19-23. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
The Holyspirit spirit reveals the truth of God and takes the truth and seal it.
Also;
John 16:12-15. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Here in John 16:30-32 we have a picture of the disciples belief shattered after Jesus was crucified.
But after they were sealed they preached boldly!!
Look at their condition in Matthew 28:16-17.
Ephesians 1:13.
God bless.
Sorry for such late delays in answering your replies.
I'm on the road and working during the week.
There's no improving on the great reply Brother Chris has given!
However here's my answer, atleast the short of it.
As for the People in the OT, they were saved by the same way those in the NT are saved. They were righteous by the requirements given at that time that pointed to the Cross.
Everything anyone did or do, whether Johns baptism or the disciples baptism "whether before or after" Pointed to one who was coming or came. And that is Christ!
As for them being clean before Pentecost.
John 15:3-4 tells us how the disciples were clean. "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Christ was with them when he went to the Father he said he would send them ANOTHER Comforter. Even before Christ was risen the Lord spirit has always been active in revealing truth and saving souls.
Matthew 16:17 is an example.
They had the Chief Shepherd with them, When he was smitten they scattered!
For the same reason the disciples didn't fast like John's disciples.
Mark 2:18-20.
As for the example sequence you laid out.
Quoting you;
"Peter said to people to just have a knowledge about Christ then get water baptised and then get born again?
That confuses me! I'll leave that one alone.
You asked; "What is baptism? and referenced Colossians 2:12 "Buried with him in baptism"...
You also referenced " Romans 6:3-7
, "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so WE ALSO SHOULD WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE.
We are to recognize this as done!
Water baptism didn't do neither.
Water baptism ritually points to the operation being done.
Gb
As for me, my confidence in my salvation, with the reception of the Holy Spirit, is because of, not only the total life-change He has brought me (if you only knew of my life before salvation), but also His direction of my mind & spirit towards to the things of God, my resolve to please & worship Him alone, & the confidence that my salvation is secure & rests on nothing else but His unmerited favor towards me & His precious Word. As well, in my ministry experience, I've seen the Spirit of God work in wonderful ways, both in me & before my eyes, which would be too long & unapplicable here. These things I've mentioned here cannot happen to those who haven't been gripped by God's Love, changed inwardly, & have God's Power by His Spirit working within. I may not speak in other tongues or have other manifestations that some believers look for as evidence, but the knowledge & experience of God working in me & before me is my perennial testimony of His indwelling Presence in my life. That's just a brief testimony I share with you, because you've asked. Every blessing brother.
This is my understanding of the re-birth experience - when the Holy Spirit comes in to reside, the life must change completely & irrevocably - if that doesn't happen (& the person will know it, if truthful), then that re-birth claim is spurious, thus giving way to many deceived but 'religious' persons in the Church.
Acts 19:1-7. I've understood those disciples to be ones of Jesus, not John (sorry if I misled you in this). We know that Jesus had many disciples, not just the twelve ( Luke 6:13; Luke 10:1), so these twelve in Ephesus may well be counted amongst those who believed that Jesus was the Messiah & attended to Him whenever they could. The disciples that Paul met were only baptized by John (not in his name but by him, hence called John's baptism). They never heard of the Holy Spirit, because under John's baptism, that wasn't necessary - they received his baptism pointing towards repentance & the Savior. And why should they be baptized first & then receive the Holy Spirit? In this formation of the Church, we do read of the Holy Spirit being given after the laying on of hands (here in Acts 19:6; Acts 8:13-17), so evidently, water baptism can precede reception of the Holy Spirit in those days. So, at that time, they seemed to be separate events, but today the Holy Spirit is received by true repentance & faith in Christ ( Romans 10:9,10). As Paul stated, salvation comes by confession & believing - and in my understanding, salvation can only happen by the Work of the Holy Spirit within the person. Onto Page 3.
Thanks bro Giannis for your comments. Just looking at our comments overall, I think that our understanding of the terms used differ. As in "clean" ( John 13:10,11); how should we understand that word? Was Jesus referring to their absolute purity or the state of their heart towards Him & learning from Him? I doubt if the disciples were sinless, so I would lean towards to their state of heart. And of course, one amongst them had a heart of hypocrisy, ongoing sin, & eventual betrayal.
I don't consider the Last Supper event as their First Communion (as we know it). They met simply to participate in the Passover, as all good, law-abiding Jews would do. But Jesus took that opportunity to then point the Passover to Himself as the Lamb Who would be slaughtered & His Blood shed. From the meal on the table, Jesus extracted the bread & the cup to pointedly show them the manner of His Death & its meaning, & for their future remembrance of this very sad yet great event. Should the disciples have been Christians (saved) to participate in the Passover? Or, could they not baptize others, even as John did? Or even preach to others & give healing from demons & sicknesses? In all these occasions as you have highlighted, the disciples were with Jesus or sent with power to do the work. They received His direction & empowerment to accomplish these tasks, yet remained ordinary unsaved men. Without Jesus, they were miserable, faithless, powerless men - but they were learning - being discipled. But when Jesus returned to His Father, His Promise was that they would not be left alone, but receive "power from on high". And should we even mention of what these disciples became when the Holy Spirit came upon them and in them? They were born again & empowered to live lives & do works that were uncharacteristic of ordinary men - and they remained faithful to the end of their lives. Onto Page 2.
Re: Matthew 27:50-54 (as also in Matthew 27:63,64: pertaining to Jesus rising from the grave), I see that the same word (in a different form) is used in the Greek. By the way, I wasn't referring to verse 50, Jesus "yielding up the ghost" as to His resurrection, but to the event after His three day entombment.
So when we get to those saints who died & arose (vv 52,53), I understand those verses to show that there were two parts to this event. Firstly in verse 52a, when Jesus yielded up His Spirit on the Cross, simultaneously those specific graves were opened as the veil was rent & the earthquake, etc. But those departed saints remained dead in their graves until verse 52b, 53: "and many bodies of the saints arose and came out of the graves AFTER his resurrection" (at least that's the way I read those verses). This would affirm that Jesus was indeed the 'firstfruits of the resurrection' ( 1 Corinthians 15:20-23), since those saints only arose & came out of their graves (i.e. their resurrection, 'egerthesan') after Jesus first arose. So if I visualize the scene at that time: Jesus appearing to the women & then the disciples & simultaneously these long-departed saints now walking among the populace - this event alone should have sent Jerusalem into some turmoil. Thanks again brother & every blessing.
God bless,
RLW
Thanks, Chris I was just being silly with the ruckus, I took a closer look at John 3 and I understand what you are saying about John 3:13 being in the discussion with Nicodemus. Jesus is telling him that no man had, or could go up to heaven, to bring the knowledge of heavenly things. That is a better understanding of the context of what Jesus was telling Nicodemus.
On the other, We are told in Hebrews 9:27 man is appointed once to die but it is God's will and His pleasure, and some things we have not been told. We know in Hebrews 11:5 Enoch was translated that he should not see death, and in 2 Kings 2:11 Elijah was taken up, other than that we speculate.
We do know Moses died Deut. 34:1-5, that is why I believe the transformation was a vision, whether a future event like things John was shown in Revelation or just a vision to strengthen the three to be apostles. My understanding is our soul is not immortal, to me scripture says we are mortal 2 Cor. 15:46-48 and will be until we are resurrected, 1 Cor. 15:53-54. The spirit that goes back is our breath/life, Ecclesiastes 12:7
In Matt. 27:50-54 my understanding is different, the word resurrection is a different word than used for all the other times it is in scripture it has more of a meaning of waking up. I would think after being hung on the cross for 6 hours one would be in and out of consciousness. In vs 50 Jesus cried out and yielded up the ghost.
All the things that happened next are connected with and, all happened when Jesus died. The earthquake opened the graves and those who arose went into Jerusalem when Jesus died not after Jesus was resurrected. That is my understanding, but scripture does not tell us about who they appeared to or what happened to them. Verse 54 confirms this to me and ties it to John 8:28.
Thanks for your reply and a better understanding of John 3:13, but my understanding is still no one but Jesus has ascended to heaven or will.
God bless,
RLW
Chris
When that eunuch believed and got w/baptised by Philipp nothing seems to had happened as in Ephessus. Neither in Samaria before the apostles coming by. When Cornelius and his friends believed the Holly Spirit came with tongues, similarly in Ephessus. Why? Nothing seems to have happened to Paul himself when he himself believed and got saved. So sometimes something happens and other times nothing happens. Why? Because they are separate events. When Paul wants to mention new birth in his epistles he just writes "reborn" or similar expressions. When he wants to mention the baptism of the Holly Spirit he clearly writes that, He distinguishes between them.
Personally as far as you are concerned do you know (not just believe) that you are baptised in the Holly Spirit. And if you say yes, then how do you know that?
GBU
Hi Chris
Without any offence meant I don't think that many christians in the whole world hold the belief that the apostles were not saved (ie born again) before Pentecost. So that means that although they were not saved, still they were called "clean" by Jesus, they participated in the first Communion during the last supper, they baptised other people, they were sent by Jesus to preach salvation to the Jews (without themselves being saved?) etc etc. Hard to believe, sorry.
Peter's preaching to the Hebrews on that day clearly makes Spirit baptism a separate event taking place after believing.
Similarly the incident in Samaria, in Ephessus. Trying to explain those events otherwise comes up with strange explanations. Like the apostles were not saved, like one can believe (just a mere knowledge) then gets baptised but still not saved, etc.
Lets go back to that meeting between Paul and the disciples in Ephessus.
Acts were written by Luke the Evangelist. Luke describes those people as disciples. Disciples of John? Wouldn't he write that? When he wrote the book of Acts he knew that those were disciples of John (assuming they were), so why doesn't he mention it? Why does Paul ask if they received the Holly Spirit after they believed? He assumed they had just a mere knowledge about Jesus? Why does he ask them in what name were they baptised? John didn't baptise people in his or other name. So He assumes that they were baptised.
The disciples told Paul that they had never heard of the Holly Spirit. Paul is surprised and asks them in what name were they baptised, because when one is baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holly Spirit, they have definitely hear that , the Holly Spirit. So how come theynever heard of it?
OK lets assume you are right and they were John's disciples. Why does Paul baptise them in water before them been born again? He should had done the opposite. So you see that trying to explain it like you do brings some strange explanations.
The Book of the Prophet Jeremiah
Chapter 23
1
Woe be unto the pastors6 that destroy18 and scatter56 the sheep of my pasture! saith7 the LORD.
2
Therefore thus saith1 the LORD God of Israel against the pastors6 that feed6 my people; Ye have scattered52 my flock, and driven them away,55 and have not visited1 them: behold, I will visit6 upon you the evil of your doings, saith7 the LORD.