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Basic points: Scripture makes it clear that we as believers are to "suffer for His name's sake" ( Philippians 1:29). We are given a new heart with our stony heart removed ( Ezekiel 36:26). We are to love the brethren ( 1 John 3:14) if we have "passed from death to life." We also love our enemies ( Matt. 5:44) and we should read the entire passage to meditate on how we pray for them who despitefully use you"; etc. We are aliens ( 1 Peter 2:11-12; see also 1 Chron. 29:15) and not of this world. We are truly born again and seated in heavenly places ( Eph. 2:6) and our treasure is now in heaven as well ( Matt. 6:20-21). We understand that we were saved as hopeless sinners and therefore serve as "unworthy servants" ( Luke 17:7-10). We still have peace that passes understanding (Phillipians 4:7); and is not of this world ( John 14:27).
With all this we have an understanding of how we have been called and chosen and predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son ( Romans 8:29).
We learn to love His ways and His Word; trusting God for the difficult and hard scriptures and sayings as well. A true believer is being transformed by the renewing of His mind ( Romans 12:2) and is concerned about the needs of others; particularly within the house of God. Hebrews 13 as well as Paul's example ( 2 Cor. 11:28) despite the persecutions he endured. We desire to grow and also must believe He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him ( Heb. 11:6). That means we also desire to win the prize of the high calling (Phillipians 3:14). Therefore those in Christ should be careful not to lose their reward ( Rev. 3:11).
All this being said; there are examples of those who think they are saved but are not; as well as those who make it into heaven but suffer loss. Evidence of fruit can be seen in time; and each of us are responsible to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith ( 2 Cor. 13:5). Seek and ye shall find ( Matt 7:7-8
I agree, this matter is not that important. My original question to Giannis had nothing to do with water baptism and I did not want to get into a discussion about water baptism because that's one of those topics that always ends up in disagreement. So I don't have anymore to add.
And, yes, the original discussion was about Judas, and so, it may be time to close this thread and begin a new one on baptism, if you wish. For me, I think it is time for me to exit this thread. God's blessings to you and Jesse, always.
I agree that the reference of "they are not all Israel who are of Israel" does refer to ethnic Israel.
Steven, I do not wish to belabor this thread I have shared with Jema what I understand on this topic, and you have, too and can do so further. My intention was not to get in a long thread with you. You are welcome to go through these chapters and give your understanding as I did, but I do not wish to exchange with you because most of the time it doesn't feel right to me. Have a good evening. I would love to read your whole analysis of this topic to Jema, but, please, do not direct it to me.
Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Paul is asking if there is someone without faith, shall their lack of faith cancel out the faithfulness of God?
Paul answers that in vs 4 God forbid:
Israel's failures doesn't void out the promises of God.
God's promise to send Israel the redeemer was not voided by their wilful disobedience and rejection.
All his promises for the future of the nation will be fulfilled to his glory in spite of their unbelief. This is the unconditional covenant God made with Abraham.
Here's a few more verses causes people to believe the Church is the new Israel.
Galatians 3:28-29.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 2:28-29
"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Now these verses is not talking about an ethnic group.
Paul gives us the subject of the matter in Romans 3:1.
"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?"
Now here is where Paul was actually contrasting the Jews and the law, and the promise by faith of Jesus Christ.
Colossians 2:11-12.
This contrast the belief that righteousness came by the outwardly circumcised jew and the circumcision of the heart, in the spirit,
In other words Abraham was given the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith before he was circumcised.
Romans 4:11-13.
So Jew and Israel is not always used synonymous in the scripture.
Eph 6:13-17 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
May you trust in the Lord Jesus alone and not in your own understanding.
You stated; In Romans 9 "the subject really is not Israel nor the Church but God's righteousness and mercy and how one receives these.
Here is how Romans 9 starts;
1) "I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Here's how it ends;
9:31) But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33) As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Here's how Ch 10 starts;
10:1) Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2) For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Here's how ch 10 ends;
21) But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Here's how Ch 11 starts.
1)I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Here's the conclusion:
Romans11:25-27.
Back to my point.
Romans 9:6
"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:" doesn't refer to the Church.
It speaks of the promise of God, not the work of man.
Inheritance was not through natural birth!
It's through the promise given to Abraham back in Genesis.
The text involves Natural Israel and the Israel of God. (The remnant) Romans 11:5.
God bless.
GiGi mentioned John 3:26, "And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.".
Also John 3:22, "After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized."
Also John 4:1-2, "When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)"
So the understanding I have concurs with GiGi's. Jesus baptized his first disciples. then those baptized the next ones and so on.
GiGi it is important in the sence that if the apostles were baptized, so was Judas. But new birth precedes w/baptism, so Judas was saved. That is what all this discussion was all about.
GBU
Hello Jesse, and GiGi
Most of the apostles were John's disciples before joining Jesus. In that incident just before Pentecost when the apostles were to choose another disciple in Judas' place, Peter said to the rest of them, ( Acts 1:21-22) "Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, BEGINING FROM THE BAPTISM OF JOHN, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.". Some like Matthew were not John's disciples, but I suppose a large number of them were. Surely Peter, Andrew, John, James (the incident in the sea of Galilee), also Phillip and Nathanael ( John 1:45-52). So at least 6 out 12.
Were they baptized John's baptism?
In Luke 7:29-30 Jesus said to Pharisees, "And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.".
Also in Luke 3:3 says, "And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;"
So it was the counsel of God Hebrews to be baptized (how about the christian baptism?). Also it was for the remission of sins. So it was something so important that John's disciples had to do. Once John baptized others even Jesus, didn't he baptize his own disciples? So they were all baptized John's baptism.
Where they baptised the christian baptism later on? In Acts 19: 4-5 when Paul meets those disciples in Ephessus told them, "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." So all had to be baptised again in the name of Jesus. So as a conclusion the apostles were baptized both tJohn's and the christian baptism.
In Galatians 6:15-16 we've already established that Paul is speaking of the Church.
However it's clear he's talking about the two people in the body.
"The circumcision and the uncircumcision."
That's clear from verses 12-15.
Vs 15) "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Here in vs 16 he's clearly still dealing with the same two groups that make up the Church.
vs 16) "And as many as walk according to this rule, ( PEACE BE ON THEM,) and mercy, ( AND UPON THE ISRAEL OF GOD.)
If the Israel of God is the Church, Who do you say "the them" is?
There's definitely two groups within the Church Paul is speaking on from vs 12 onwards.
There's no way or reason to cross them up being that the circumcision is always speaking of Israel so the Israel of God relates to them.
And the uncircumcision always refers to the Gentiles and "Them" refers to the Gentiles.
The entire context is on "the two" in Christ.
So yes I do disagree.
I do agree with you that Romans 11 says the Gentiles are grafted into the vine. And the Church is made up as Jews and Gentiles.
No ones debating that.
However that has nothing to do with what Paul is saying in Galatians 6:12-16.
And it has nothing to do with my point.
My point is the Church is not called the Israel of God in the scripture.
More to come
God bless.
At the time in John 4, Jesus had already called His disciples I believe. This is why I think they were baptized by Jesus.
I don't think we can know definitively concerning this. The passage in John 3 says that Jesus was baptizing. We do not know if this incident was the same as John 4 or another time. It could be either.
For now, I will welcome your response, but I do not think this matter is so important that we go back and forth on it for long.
To really hammer this home; I need to discuss the other technique the enemy uses; namely that of telling us what we want to hear. All throughout church history; there has been a vacillation between outright persecution of the saints and damnable heresies that allow for any distraction and comfort in this life to take over and blind men to the truth. I would propose that the latter is far more damaging to the Saints today. Fear of man is something scripture warns against; but also flattery such as is warned of in Daniel 11:32 which the Antichrist himself will use to convince others to break his covenant and attack the Jews in the midpoint of the Tribulation.
No matter how you slice it; if we aren't truly convinced that the admonitions and warnings of scripture are real in our souls; we are not delivering a message that will prick the consciences of the recipients. This is really the firm root in ourselves spoken of in the parable of the seed and the sowers. ( Mark 4:17). This comes in conjunction with trusting God; and having a willing attitude towards reading and obeying it. I have found that if we trust in the Lord enough we can fairly predictably see the course of events when one is in error; including ourselves of course. Many seem to think that the curses and blessings in the Old Testament only were relevant to the Old Covenant. I would argue not. There are certain things that are ceremonial laws; and I believe the Sabbath Day is overruled; as it were with the Son of Man being Lord of the Sabbath ( Matthew 12:8). As far as the other 9 of the 10 Commandments along with other scriptures these are universal laws affecting a covenant of marriage (fornication and adultery); the sacredness of human life (murder); and boundaries (see Deut. 32:8).
In light of this; a true believer has some awareness that they are in a Covenant relationship with their Lord and Savior. See 1 Cor. 6:19-20.
I've been reading your posts on this topic. Thanks for persevering on the subject. It is food for thought.
. John's baptism was until Christ's death and resurection and after that people would have been baptized into Christ ? That's my understanding . I guess that must mean that a lot of people were re baptized after Christ's ascension ? Acts Ch 19 verse 1-5 .
Luke 14:31 gives us the hypothetical situation when we have 10000 men about to go to war with 20000. We have to decide whether to fight or seek a peace agreement. Given the very real odds against the armies of Israel; as well as God purposely reducing the size so that only His victory can be acknowledged (such as in Judges 7:2) we should carefully assess whether we are positioned to enter into spiritual warfare (such as Ephesians 6 describes).
Few would argue the importance of love as a virtue of prime importance being that God IS love ( 1 John 4:8). It is to be sought as 1 Corinthians 13:1 demonstrate how other giftings are subordinate to love and of course John 15:13 shows there is no greater love than laying down our life for our friends as demonsrated by our Lord and Savior Himself. I have discussed repentance in earlier posts on this subject. I thought it prudent to point out that we need to go beyond just acknowledgement of what scripture states is sin to the point where there is a revulsion and hatred within. After all; His Spirit is said to testify with our spirit ( Romans 8:16) that we are indeed His children. This sort of balances things out; we are to have Agape love where we love our enemies; also we are to truly hate sin whether it is within us; others or the whole world system. This encompasses the world; the flesh and the Devil. There seems to be a rather laccadasical approach when it comes to the enemy of our souls. Christ makes it perfectly clear as to his character but sadly when the seriousness of the matter of his deadly destructive rampage comes up almost always I seem to get a response that it is really no big deal. That is something frankly I find hard to swallow; given that God Himself will allow Satan to have authority over the whole world so that everyone who isn't written in the Book of Life will worship Antichrist and Satan by default. ( Rev. 13:8). That is coming soon.
continuation of 5.
its written in Psalms 139:13-16
13.For You formed my inward parts.
You [f]covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise You, for [g]I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My [h]frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.
.its written in the
2 Chronicles 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him. In this you have done foolishly; therefore from now on you shall have wars."
and Jeremiah 5:1-5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.
Proverbs 5:21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD And he pondereth all his goings.
Lastly repent of your sin and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ
3. For one to understand his word the word of God not Just the parable you need to seek God with all you mind heart and soul. this means that the things which come first in your life need to come second eg your family friend's workplace even your own children then put God first then all these things will come. doesn't mean your runaway from Home but its means. Delight yourself in God's word followship with God each moment of your life and don't wait for the opportunity to walk with God but make opportunity to walk with God. and pray always without ceasing humble yourself -the body and soul before God by fasting and read His word for faith Cames by hearing and by hearing by the word of God.
4. your Prayers life is directed to The Trinity This means there's one God who exist as one person yet eternally exists as three distinct Persons God the father God the son and God the Holy Spirt. pray and ask Jesus the son of the Living God to teach you how to pray. as its written in John 14:13-17 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
5. God is knows each man better than we know our self and the 12Who can understand his errors? Cleanse thou me from secret faults. meaning we don't understand even our own hearts any better and only God knows it. and this is not just one person but each man on earth dead or alive God knows us. by age by language by what you like by what your preferer to speaks truly nothing is hidden from God. you might think your alone but if you read the scriptures. we are all known very well to God.
God -
The bible the Old Testament was written in Hebrew and the New Testament was originally written in Greek then English. in order to understand why Jesus, the son of the living God, said the father who is God.
you need to go back to geneses and to be exact in Hebrew where you find in Genesis one 1:1 in Hebrew Elohim. the Name ELOHIM is in Plural and immediate we are introduced to God the father God the son and God the Holy Spirt.
Now we see from the very first chapter of the bible The Trinity created all we see visible and the invisible which we can note see with our naked eyes.
This means there's one God who exist as one person yet eternally exists as three distinct Persons God the father God the son and God the Holy Spirt and in
2 peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
Pray that God will give you understanding.
Amen.
The will of the father is to obey His word. and the Word is the bible and all that is written in it 2 timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
and in its written in Joshua 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
and lastly this is the will of the father that each man shall obey His word and if we will obey, He will be our father and we, His people.
Deuteronomy 28:11And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I
I'll finish responding as soon as I can.
I am still reading and pondering on a few things before I finish responding. One thing that comes to mind, and I thought I might run it by you for your thoughts, but would it have been possible that the 12 may have already been baptized by John before Jesus called them, since John was already baptizing people?
Just a thought. I finished responding as soon as I can.
Blessings to you in Christ Jesus!
I may be different, but in my understanding of the Bible, I approach scripture simply and do not try to complicate things with preconceived ideas and let the Bible and the Holy Spirit do the interpretation. To me, a symbol will have a non-symbolic meaning.
A symbol represents something real, a real person, a real thing, or a historical event. When I read, I understand words in a literal sense first, then in a figurative or spiritual sense if the literal doesn't make sense.
Are the Christians now the Israel of God? Have the promises to Israel and the church merged into one common heritage? If so that brings up.
Will the promise of the land given to Abraham's seed, Isaac then Jacob be fulfilled? Isaiah 11:11-12 Ezekiel 37:21-25 Jeremiah 24:5-6 Ezekiel 34:11-12 Ezekiel 36:24-26 Hosea 3:4-5 Micah 4:6-7 Zechariah 13:8-9
Will Jesus the Messiah return and reign on the earth, with a rod of iron? Isaiah 2:1-4 Isaiah 11:1-4 Daniel 2:44 Daniel 7:14 Zechariah 14:1-4 Jeremiah 3:17 Revelation 2:26-27 Revelation 11:15 Revelation 12:5 Revelation 19:11-21.
Will there be a literal millennium during which Satan will not deceive the nations and Christ will reign on earth? Revelation 20:1-6 2 Timothy 2:11-12 Isaiah 2:2-4 Isaiah 11:5-16 Isaiah 65:19-25 Isaiah 51:4-5 Zechariah 14:16-21 Micah 4:1-4 Psalms 46:7-11 Matthew 19:28.
To me there are too many scriptures that are showing God has not replaced Israel with the Church. We see in Romans 11:24-27 a day when God will again turn to Israel, the day Jesus returns. Forgive me if some of the scriptures do not fit.
God bless,
RLW
You are right, we are to keep open to the workings of the Holy Spirit as to understanding His word and the formation of our beliefs. You are right in that what we think is correct may change in time, and we should be willing to consider other ideas.