All Discussion PAGE 452

S. Spencer

Thank you for breaking down that scriptural passage concerning Jesus and the disciples baptizing.

Jema,

Pt. 4 final

They will be grafted back into the root who come to Him in faith ( Rom. 11:23). So the true Israel is in Jesus. The Church fulfills all that was promised to Israel and CONTINUES the spiritual heritage of Israel and all who believe enter the SPIRITUAL kingdom of God in Christ for all eternity.

Judaism and the Jewish nation were brought to an end in A.D. 70 when the Romans decimated the population and demolished the city of Jerusalem and its temple which was the center of the Jews worship and religious rites. This was prophesied by Jesus and enacted by God because the Messiah had come who is the fulfillment of all the Old Testaments promises and covenants. The Jews rejected Him outright. God brought judgment upon the Jews, Judaism, and Jerusalem in A.D. 70 not just to punish the Jews, but also to end Judaism so that Jews can then have more incentive to turn to Jesus to be saved. And in being saved, they entered what was the true "end" of the promises and prophecies for Israel, that is the fulfillment and transfer of the ethnic nation of Israel to the spiritual people of Israel in Jesus.

After months and months of study, I find that I align more with covenant theology concerning Israel and definitely not with Dispensational theology that keeps Israel and the Church distinct and separate for eternity. The New Testament just doesn't teach this distinction nor tell sus to interpret Scripture with this distinction in mind. Rather, Paul tells us that believing Jews and Gentiles are one man in Christ ( Gal 3.28), so we are not to keep Israel separate from the church because the church is the people of Israel in Jesus Christ. Unbelieving Israelites and Gentiles are to be kept distinct from the Church. There are only two people groups in the world and history: the church and unbelievers. This is where the distinction lies. Period.

Also, Gal. 2:8 is where the gospel was preached to Abraham.

I hope this helps, Jema. I interpet the OT with the NT.

Jema,

Pt. 3

Romans 10 3 says that Israel was ignorant of God's righteousness (in Christ) and sought to establish their own righteousness and did not submit themselves to the righteousness of God (in Christ).

Rom. 11 begins by saying: "Has God cast away His people (Israel)? vs. 2 God has not cast away His people HE FOREKNEW."

Vs. 5 says that God has preserved a REMNANT of Israel that is of election by grace. So Paul says that only those of the remnant of Israel will be saved. Vs. 7 says that Israel as a whole have not attained that which they seeketh (righteousness before God), but those that are elected (the remnant) have received .., the rest being blinded. But there is a promise of God saving those of Israel who are of election.

In 1 Peter 1:9 Peter says that believers in Jesus are "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people.". Here Peter is using terminology that was once used for Israel ( dt. 7:16; 10:15) to equate the church with Israel.

Covenant theology does not say that Israel (or the Jews are replaced by the Church, but that all of the promises given to the nation through Abraham are expressly fulfilled in Jesus Christ, who is perfect ethnic Israel and perfect SPIRITUAL Israel in one person. All of the promises of God are "YES" in Jesus ( 2 Cor. 1:20). All that God promised to Israel are fulfilled in Christ. ( Gal. 3:19, Therefore, all believers are heirs of these promises that were made to Israel. Jesus and the Church are the continuation of TRUE Israel. Any Israelite who believes in Jesus is a true Israelite, ( Rom. 9:6-7). Paul says in the discourse of the two olive trees in Rom. 11, that those Israelites who did not believe were cut off of the root (that is holy, meaning Jesus), true Israel) and those gentiles that believe will be grafted into the root. And also, if those Israelites (Jews) who are in unbelief turn to Jesus and believe.....cont.

Gal 3:8

Jema, I write all of this because Paul speaks so

You're welcome Gigi.

Jesus certainly was overseeing some baptizing.

If you take those verses you presented chronologically I believe it explains itself.

John 3:22-26. "After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

For John was not yet cast into prison.

Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.

And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him."

Then in John 4:1-2 the Pharisees took notice of this but verse 2 explains it.

Vs 2. ( Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

John's ministry was about up.

"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. John 1:6-8."

John was to present the one in the loins of Abraham prophesied to come into the world in the OT.

John the baptist baptism was for Israel to turn/repent from Judaism.

Luke 1:16-17.

Malachi 4:5-6.

He announced one coming for the lost sheep of Israel.

God bless.

Jema,

Pt. 2

In John 8:56, Jesus said that Abraham rejoiced to see my (Jesus') day. Abraham knew that the promise God made to him concerning his seed was a prophecy of Jesus, the Seed, promised. Abraham knew that Isaac was a fulfillment of the promise, but also knew that Isaac was foreshadowing Jesus, the Messiah, the true Israel of God because the gospel was preached to Abraham in advance (I'll get you the Scripture citation later).

In Rom. 9:1-6 Paul speaks of his desire for his ethnic people to be saved because of the heritage they received: the covenants, the law, service to God, the promises, and from whom, concerning the fleshy lineage, Christ came (vs.4-5). In vs 6-8 speaks that not all who are of (ethnic) Israel are of Israel (Christ), neither because they are sons of Abraham in the flesh, are they children (of God), but the children of the promise (of Christ) are counted as seed.

Verses 22-27 speaks of God preparing before creation the vessels of His mercy created for Hiis glory and to receive glory. Then Paul says: Even us, not the Jews only but also gentiles citing Hosea 2:23 that God will call those people who are not my people my people and her beloved , which was not beloved (meaning those who are in Christ-the Church) who are now God's people, the children of the living God. That's us!

Verse 27 speaks of Israel as being as many as the sands of the sea, yet only a remnant of ethnic Israel will be saved. And this remnant are those who believe in Jesus. Verse 30-32 speaks of the gentiles who followed not after righteousness from keeping the law have attained righteousness by faith. And Israel, who tried to attain righteousness by keeping the law did not attain righteousness through the law, did not, because they sought righteousness in law-keeping and not in Christ by faith.

Chapter 10 begins with Paul expressing his heartfelt desire and prayer is for Israel to be saved. ....cont.

Hi Lisanne,

My understanding is, the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel, Genesis 37:9. The woman brought forth a man child who was to rule all nations, this is Jesus, Rev. 2:27 Rev. 19:15. Jesus will return to Israel, Zech. 14:4 Isaiah 11:11-12 Jeremiah 23:3-8 Ezekiel 37:21-25 Rev. 14:1.

Please do not take offense, Robert Breaker is interesting but like I said before some of the things do not line up. Like the Rabbi says 10 jubilees until the Messiah comes and that is calculated to the year 2017. How can that be a sign of what Trump did by moving our embassy to Jerusalem?

My understanding of what John saw in Revelation 12, was the woman, a dragon, and a war in heaven. The woman is Israel who brought forth Jesus, Jesus ascended back to heaven and is on the right side of the Father on the throne, this was almost 2000 years ago. The dragon is Satan, and the war that Satan and his angels are cast down out of heaven to earth and no more place in heaven for them, this is in our future, this will happen when the fulness of the Gentiles become in Romans 11:25.

So, if part of Revelation 12 is in our past, the way Breaker used the images in Rev. 12 to me does not fit. I hope this makes sense and is not offensive. You may have received good information from his video that helps your study.

God bless,

RLW

Hello Jema

S, Spencer has responded. He represents the Dispensational point of view. It teaches that when Israel is spoken of in Scripture it is always ethnic, national Israel. Also it teaches that the Church and the Jews are always to be kept distinct from one another forever.

I do not adhere to the dispensational theological viewpoint about Israel and the Church. I hold more to the Covenant Theology view concerning Israel and the Church. This view states that in the Old Testament and under the Old Covenant Israel is most often addressing ethnic, national Israel, excepting that some Scriptures are speaking prophetically about Jesus. The nation of Israel under the Old Covenant is a type or shadow of what was to come in the New Testament and New Covenant of Jesus.

In the New Testament and New Covenant, Jesus is the completion of the Old Testament and Old Covenant. He is the "Seed" promised to Abraham in Ge. 17:7 as Paul tells us in Gal. 3:16. Further in chapter 3 Paul speaks of those who believe in Jesus as being children of God (which is the same thing said of ethnic Israel in the Old Covenant) ( Gal. 3:26). Because we have put on Christ through our baptism (vs. 27), in Him there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile) for all believers are one in Christ (vs. 28) and therefore, if we be Christ's then we are Abraham's seed (Israel) and heirs according to the promise (to Abraham in Gen. 17:7)

Gal. 4:24-25 speaks of the Jews (Jerusalem) as being in bondage to Judaism (the Law) being of Mt. Sinai and of bondage to the Law given. But in vs. 26-31 speaks of the Church as the New Jerusalem, of Isaac, children of the promise given to Abraham. Verse 30 says that the children of the bond woman (ethnic Israel under the law of Moses) is cast out and the children of the promise (vs, 30) (the Church of the New Covenant in Christ, the promised Seed) are heirs of the promises to Abraham. We (the church) are heirs to what was promised to the heir of Abraham, who is Jesus.

cont.

Yes, S. Spencer,

I meant to write John 3:22-23. Thanks for catching that.

Cindy, I will pray for Renay.

Thank you for the input. I think most would be willing to make up a story to protect someone (violate do not bear false witness command), yet, I see no scripture saying this is ok to do. Imagine an old ex who just got out of prison at your doorstep and you him she doesn't live there anymore- Are we just assuming it's ok to lie based on the world's standards or is there something in the Bible that indicates lying isn't as bad as harm to a loved one?

Concerning Saul's "obsession" with killing David.

It began with envy after David slew Goliath; "Saul hath slain his thousands, David hath slain his ten thousands."

Later, God gave Saul an evil spirit. I Samuel 16:14-23

8. The Church of Philadelphia in revelation which is the faithful church does it exist in America How do I find a pastor who meets all the biblical qualifications to preach and how do I find a church who is faithful to Christ who keeps Christ word and have not denied his name."

1.When Jesus says in John 5:24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. When he says believes him who sent me is he talking about the father that sent Jesus or God that sent Jesus.

2. In Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. What is the will of the father.

3. How do I understand all of the parables of Jesus Christ.

4. When I pray to repent am I praying to jesus for forgivness or to the father for forgivness and is my whole life in prayer to the father, to jesus or to the holy spirit?

5. How do I know if jesus knows me? "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

6. How do I know if my name is in the book of life?

7. "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood lhas eternal life, and mI will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood nabides in me, and I in him. 57 As othe living Father psent me, and qI live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. What does this mean?

8. The Church of Philadelphia in revelation which is the faithful church does it exist in America How do I find a pastor who meets all the bibical qualitfications to preach and how do I find a church who is faithul to christ who keeps christ word and have not denied his name.

I went on this app and it has questions and one said if you commit suicide are you safe I know I'm not saying that correctly and everybody said if you are a born again Christian that you can't lose your salvation if you commit suicide please tell me if that's right or wrong thank you

My sister Renay is scheduled to have throat cancer surgery on Thursday, April 20, 2023. Please pray that God guides the surgeon's hand...

I wouldn't hesitate to lie to some one in order to protect some one else from physical harm . God knows our hearts and our motivations and we must trust Him to judge us with righteousness and also mercy .

Hi Adam.

If I had to face a situation like that I have what you might call a premeditated scenario that involves a lie.

"If I saw this killer coming and don't have time to hide but was able to hide my wife and lie about her whereabouts at the present time I certainly would.

I even have the hiding place already picked out and the lie prepared.

So that lie and intent for this particular situation is already in me.

So the question I would ask is, is this premeditated lie sin before or after the fact? "There's no doubt I'm going to do it "

I'm not granted that amount of faith at the present.

HOWEVER!

God may grace me with the faith I need for the moment and I would certainly be praying it.

This is the dilemma in living in such a wicked world with only a measure of the spirit and this coward sinful flesh.

This reminds me of Peter when he denied the Lord to stay alive.

"At the time he wasn't spirit filled."

Christ told him how he would glorify him by his death in John 21:18-19.

When he was indwelled and strengthened by the Spirit he preached Christ boldly and was made an Apostle to the very people he feared.

God bless.

Hi Jema.

That's a great question.

Eschatology is shaped around this topic. Also Dispensationalism and covenant theology is tested by this in a sense.

This is something I've been wanting to get to for some time now but I've been to busy.

Thanks for bringing this up.

Some say God is done with Israel and the unfulfilled old testament promises was fulfilled in the Church.

And there's others weren't comfortable with that and say those promises was made to the church not " The Nation Israel."

I would direct both of these groups to Isaiah 41:8-9.

"But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away. ( Seed in this verse is not used in the way it's used in Genesis 22:18.) The seed in Genesis 22:18 relates to a promise of Christ.

Seed in Isaiah 41:8 relates to a nation whom that promised seed would come.

You will see the interpretation of these verses moved around to shape or hold on to a certain espoused eschatology.

When it comes to identifying a people there's three groups as seen in 1 Corinthians 10:32. ( Jews, Gentiles and the Church. )

The rolls and promises to these groups are distinct. Understanding that is important. .

Taking Gods promises literally is also important.

More on this later.

God bless.

Please remember me and my family today in your prayers

Goodmorning Gigi.

Is John 4:22-23 your intended scripture?

Perhaps you meant another.

God bless.

Praying For Sara Ann Chira-Tivy. i don't know what she stands personally. but she don't like Christians not only that she believes in abortions and taking anything that have to Christians and making it from Satan standpoint praying she finds Christ.

Hello all . Can I ask a question please ? Does any one out there believe that we / Christians , are now Israel ? If yes why ? If no why ? Just interested in every ones thoughts on this , thankyou .

Hello Adam. You've asked an interesting question, and even though I've tried to picture various scenarios that would fit your question, I don't think I've succeeded.

Assuming that this attacker is in close proximity to me & of course a family member is also likewise, but hidden from his view or in a more distant place, I believe that the love I have for my family, even a friend, would cause me to present myself to him to accept his wrath than to the one I love. But then again, if the family member is somewhere in the house/property, what would prevent him from conducting a room-by-room/yard search? And if the family member was away or fled the house, then this decision of mine would for the present would not be of much concern - I would still declare ignorance as to their whereabouts, which may well be a true statement. If this is what you're thinking of (i.e. not divulging information as to where the family member could be located), then I think it would be quite appropriate to not give him the answer he wants - he has no authority to compel you to do so.

Sorry, that the above might come over as a very general answer - it's simply because I can't really perceive another situation, where the attacker was unable himself to search out the one he's wanting. Now, if the attacker wasn't a criminal but a representative of one of the law enforcement agencies, then yes, honesty is required to give them the information they seek.

Please send prayers for a situation with my friends to be resolved, thank you all.

The Words of the LORD! In ( Jer. 30:2) (The LORD told Jeremiah to "(Write) thee (all) the (words) that I have (spoken) unto thee in a (book)" The word (write) is #3789; it means to grave, by implying to write, inscribe, record. The word (all) is #3605; it means the whole, any or every, (all) manner (the) whole. The word (words) is #1697; it means a word, a matter (as spoken of), commandment, saying, sentence, arrange. The word (spoken) is #1696; it means properly to arrange, but used fig. (of words) talk, teach, tell. The word (book) is #5612; it means writing (the art or a document) by implying a book, evidence, learn. letter, register. ((What all this tells us is that God commanded that every single Word that He had spoken was to be recorded in a book)) If God considered His spoken Words to be that important in the Old Testament do you think His Words would be any less important in the New Testament? ( Ps. 12:6-7) v6 The word (pure) is #2889; it means pure, sound, unadulterated, uncontaminated (innocent or holy) (pronounce clean). In v7 the word (preserve) is #5341; it means to guard, (to protect) maintain, obey. The word (ever) is #5769; it means eternity, always, ancient (time) continuance, eternal, ever (-lasting) (with-out end) (These verses tell us that we will have God's pure, sound, unadulterated Words for all eternity) ( Proverbs 30:5-6) (Every) Word of God is pure. The word (Every) is #360; it means the whole, all, any or every, (all) manner, altogether, (the) whole. Jesus Christ ((was the Word)) in the New Testament in ( Jn. 1:1-3,14) v14 Tells us "And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us" (Do you think the Words of Jesus Christ who WAS THE WORD were important enough to be documented in a book for ever to fulfill God's promise from ( Ps. 12:6-7)? holy men of God were used to translate those pure, sound, unadulterated, uncontaminated Words, for ever in ( 2 Pet. 1:19-21) You cannot get this information from modern version bibles, just the KJB. Blessings.

God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance according to Romans 2:4. The beginning of this verse asks if we show contempt for the riches of His kindness; forebearance and patience. That meaning could be directed towards those who are nonbelievers; who are "suddenly destroyed without remedy" ( Proverbs 29:1). It also could be talking about those who would use grace as license to sin as we see warned against in Romans 6:1-2.

I would propose that this also has relevance with today's compromised Gospel which downgrades the fear of the Lord; and our necessary attitude toward repentance. I believe it can be true that someone can be so afraid of say; losing their salvation or thinking God can't possibly forgive them that they have an unhealthy disassociation with their Lord and Savior. The other extreme is probably more prevalent today; however. In those who are given the admonition in Romans 11:22 I would argue that if we are in Christ we will persevere; and that is evidenced by continuing to fear the Lord and that is aided by the continuing presence of the Spirit bringing us to maturity.

My focus in this post is on those who would want to make the Gospel less offensive. What seems like intuitive knowledge on a human level is paradoxical on the spiritual-God's love is only magnified when the rest of His Word describing His wrath is presented. To "flee from the wrath to come" ( Luke 3:7) certainly is relevant today; for judgment ultimately but the Tribulation as well. The seriousness of sin seems to be disregarded with today's messages; I would propose that we should make people uncomfortable when they are in the House of God rather than comfortable if that means dumbing down the truth. If we show a half hearted faith it is no wonder there is so much lukewarmness in the church today. Matthew 12:34 states out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speakest. May our hearts be sold out to Christ; not with one foot still in the world.

(Part 2):

Jimbob,

I agree, Matthew does not mention a rapture of the church anywhere in Chapter 24. In fact, he never mentions a rapture in any of the chapters. You say that there is not rapture in ( Mt. 24:4), and that I am believing something that's not written over the pure Words of the Lord Jesse.

You are absolutely right about Matthew not mentioning a rapture in Verse 4, But you are falsely accusing me of believing something I never said. I never once said that any of those verses preceding Verse 4 mentioned a rapture. All I said was I believe the rapture takes place before the start of the Tribulation Period.

You go on to say that "The comment I made about the 7-year tribulation starting in ( Mt. 24:4) Would mean Jesus comes for the church in either that verse or the 3 verses before that."

Why would Matthew have to mention Jesus coming for the church in Verses 1-3? Again, you already agreed with me that the pains of birth (first 3-1/2 years) started in Matthew 24:4. So why didn't Matthew mention Jesus coming for the church in the preceding three verses? Maybe for the same reason that Paul, after speaking about the Rapture of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 didn't immediately speak about the Tribulation Period, or the wrath of God being poured out in the very next verses. He didn't need to, and Matthew didn't need to mention a rapture in Matthew 24-1-3 either.

Jimbob, our discussion on this topic seems to be at a stalemate. We are not going to completely agree with each other on this, so I see no need to continue on and I am ending off with this discussion. I would much rather discuss things that we can agree on.

God Bless!

Hello Jimbob,

You're telling me that I am saying Jesus comes in ( Mt. 24:4) where it says nothing about Jesus returning, and yet I am doubting the Words of Jesus in ( Mt. 24:29-31) where Jesus very clearly tells us He will return in the clouds to gather together His elect.

First of all, accusing me of doubting the words of Jesus is a pretty harsh thing to say. I would NEVER doubt the words of Jesus. Secondly, I did NOT say that Jesus comes in Matthew 24:4. If you have been carefully reading the things I've said, you would see that I have already stated in another post that Matthew 24:29-31 is the promise of His coming (2nd coming of Christ). I never once said that He comes at Matthew 24:4. If you can point out where I said that, then I will make the correction. In case you missed it, I will state it again. Matthew 24:4-14, Pains of birth. Matthew 24:15, Pivotal point, Matthew 24:16-28, Perils of Tribulation, and Matthew 24:29-31, The Promise of His coming. (2nd Coming of Christ).

In this thread, you asked me when I thought the 7-Year Tribulation period began. I answered by saying that the first 3-1/2 years of the 7-year Tribulation is known as the pains of birth which is covered in Matthew 24:4-14. This was your response: "You (I) said "The first 3 1/2 years of the 7-year tribulation is known as the pains of birth which is covered in" ( Mt. 24:4-14) I completely agree with that Jesse."

You asked me "Does this 7-year Tribulation period you speak of start in ( Mt. 24:21)?" I responded by saying that the 7-year Tribulation begins once the church is removed. I then said that the beginning of the 7-year tribulation begins at Matthew 24:4.

I did say that the beginning of the 7-year Tribulation begins at ( Mt. 24:4). You agreed with me on that. But then you say "I'm sorry but Jesus would say something about an event that is that important, there is absolutely nothing in that verse or the 3 verses before that shows anything or says anything about a rapture."

See Part 2:

Thank you Ronald, I ran out of room!

Open dialogue is awesome and my lamps are full!

I can answer these in detail but not sure you'll understand me unless you listen to him in detail.

I am so detail oriented that I have to watch and listen 3 times, with that said, I would have to go back again to answer each of your points.

He never gives dates, he speaks of signs, wonders and clearly states saying things like; could this be, is it a sign? idk, etc.

The woman referred to in the Bible depends on the context.

The view is best seen from Israel, because these signs are for Israel.

Jesus will return to Israel

I might ask if that's true? Clearly some things are written so easily to understand and others are not so easy but nothing as far as dates are etched in stone.

If I see a sign and put some other info together from Old Testament and New, it's left for me to decide whether it's coincidence or how many coincidences until I begin to see something more ?

Gary Hamrick also mentions this being Israel but I'd have to go back to search exactly where and I have no doubtswho I listen to as I pick out pretty much the best.

Breaker is simply demonstrating some possibilities for the open minded.

I don't need to do chemistry to prove Jesus existed because my faith is strong since a child, we were never taught all this perhaps because when I was young we are talking DOB in 1956. Ouchonly that if you doubt, what's true or not, you can research it.

I never have one source but the KJB is the root of my other sources.

I do remember clearly the September and December part and it was clearly stated a warning several months before.etc. so I don't have to look that up.

The understanding is for others not to take dates literally, listen carefully to details, he never stated that Sept 17 to be more than a possible sign.

He does move fast, that's why I stop the video and go back.

The weather on a certain day is recorded 10 years ago so it would only be time consuming but doable to find out.

I have no doubts he did his homework