All Discussion PAGE 455

Giannis

part 2.

I can accept that there is a tension in the paradox between a believer being able to apostasise and the promise of being preserved in our salvation by grace. I do not need to understand it fully because I really do not think we can. But when a brother or sister does go the way of the prodigal, we must treat them with compassion and grace, informing them that they are out of God' will and unsaved as long as they are in rebellion. The father of the prodigal said that his son was dead but now is alive again. This indicates that the son was "alive" prior to turning away from his father and living a rebellious lifestyle. We would want them to know their perilous standing before God and encourage them to return to God in faith and receive the assurance of salvation AS LONG AS they continue in faith. And when they return in faith, we must encourage them to look to God daily for Him to repair where one has breached one's trust in Him and rebelled again so that they will not return to a state of apostasy once again from which they may not ever repent of.

God took back the Israelites again and again from their fallings into idolatry and unbelief. He did so even when He had sent them into captivity. But when Jesus came and most of the Jews rejected Him, Jesus said that the kingdom was taken from them and given to another people. They died in their sin and apostasy. I think that when Paul said that ALL Israel will be saved, he was talking about those who are of Israel in Christ, Jews and Gentiles, spiritual Israel, because he also said that not all who claim to be Jews are truly Jews. Showing that only true Jews, who believe in Jesus, are saved since all of the Israel of God will be saved, which is the Church. But those that are Jews, but are not truly Jews, are not part of Israel then, and will not be saved.

This is how I understand this. If any Jew who does not believe in Jesus comes to believe, though he was broken off of the olive tree..cont.

Hello Giannis,

I think the verse you quoted in the final post is from Romans 11:22, not Hebrews.

You know, it seems that Christians are all so happy to agree that one is saved who calls on the name of the Lord and confess with one's mouth and believe in one's heart. ( Romans 10:9-13) and this is indeed true. This is what my sons did in their younger years. But then when someone turns away from Jesus, Christians say, "well, He must not have been truly saved." So, I say, did God not truly save them when they believed, confessed, and called upon Him? Does He save some times and not others? Romans says that anyone who does what this verse in Romans IS truly saved. When any Christian says of someone who turns from the faith in Jesus as not being truly saved, they make God a liar and not true to His inspired word.

And for the one who has turned away, how devasting for them to hear that they were not "truly saved" before they fell away. If it were me, I would then be convinced that God was a deceiver and unsafe to put one's trust in. I would not want to return to believe upon Jesus if the first time I was "not truly saved". How would I know that this next time I would be "truly saved" and be confident in being justified before God? This is a truly wicked way to handle the situation of a believer departing from faith. I could never say this to my sons: 1) because I do not believe that they were not truly saved and 2) the response of the one in peril is one of despair without hope of God doing what He promised.



The integrity of God's character is more important than to fall into this excuse of seeing those who left the faith as "not being truly saved" so that one can continue to uphold the doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved".

I believe that the salvation of anyone is a work of God towards sinners, for sinners cannot make themselves spiritually alive from being dead in sin. Regeneration is a work of the Holy Spirit and He does this when the gospel is heard.....cont

GiGi. Final part

Hebrews 11:22, "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS: otherwise thou also SHALT BE CUT OFF"

There are so many verses that are clear that salvation can be lost so that litterally one can write a whole book about it.

As Richard wrote how can one be happy if their salvation is always at risk? Yes I must be happy because God saved me, because He will do everything He can (according to His Justice which means He will never violate my freedom) to bring me back when I stray, like the Shepherd who went to find the lost sheep or the penny in the house, BUT I always have to guard my heart with fear because even if it was regenerated by God when I was born again, it still remains deceitful. And I don't know how I will stand when a temptation wiil stand in front of me. David just gave a glimpse to the naked Bathseba and that was enough to bring him down. Good for him he repented. Saul never repented.

You know in Greece in school we are taught about the fall of Constantinople by the Ottomans. History says (but it is possibly just a myth) that the turks found a little gate open in the walls and went in. Constaninople which was heavily fortified so it never fell for a thousand years, fall this time due a little door that was forgoten open during the seige. This can serve as an example of how satan works. He only needs a small opening in our heart to get in. And when he gets in the looting starts.

And by the way, why is satan fighting christians if they can never loose their salvation? But the Bible ( 1 Peter 5:8) says that he goes around to find someone to devour. Paul here talks to christians not to non believers.

Now about Israel, Paul says in Romans 11:26 that all Israel will be saved. Every single one of them? I can not answer to that. It is also written, John 19:37, "And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced"

GBU

PT 2

GiGi

One case was a guy who was a drug addict. He believed, God freed him completely from his passion, like he had never taken drugs before, He saved his wife, his little girl, his sister... All 4 of them stayed in the faith for years. Good people. The guy was working as a cleaner but he was struggling to earn his living. After years he decided to go back to his previous job. Before believing he and his family were going to beaches in the summertime and were selling cookies, ice creams, this sort of things. They used to earn a lot of money. So he decided to go back. The church warned him that such places are not good for christians, walking among seminaked women. Also there was the risk that his old pals would approach him again. He wouldn't listen. Later he was found by his wife dead with a needle in his arm. I just hope he had the chance to repent before his end. Who knows.

Second case. There was a couple that believed. Not married together. The woman was married before and was separated. The man had some serious alcohol issues, his liver was damaged. They separated. The guy got married to a sister in faith and had 2 nice girls. The woman prayed for her husband to be joined with her (my church does not remary separated people). but after many years they got back together (that is why we should always guard our deceitful heart). The guy left his family and they both left the church and lived together. Eventually he died due to liver destruction. The woman is still out there lost. Did he go to heaven? I don't want to give an answer.

God wants to save us, but the final decisions are made by us. We are not robots, we are not programmed, we have free will which He will never violate. God doesn't save only people who knows they will never leave Him. That would be unfair for the rest. The Bible says that He wants ALL people to be saved, but not everybody is saved.

Hi GiGi...Pt 1

About Judas, it is true that we don't know much about him apart that he eventually became a thief and kept stealing money from the bag ( John 12:6), so it seems he had some issues with money. I have also heard those theories about Judas but I don't know where they rely on, in which writtings.

I am sorry about your sons. My son also left the faith when he was 15, now he is 20, although he was born in the church. But we must trust God that He will eventually find a way to draw them back. This is a promise to believers, remember what Paul and Silas said to the guard in Philippi, Acts 17:31, "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, AND THY HOUSE.". There isn't much we can do on our own apart from praying and talking to them, if and when they wish to hear. I know very many cases of parents who didn't quit and insisted in praying about their kids and finally saw marvelous results. So be encouraged.

Now about the belief of OSAS I believe they found a method to overcome all those cases we see in the Bible, about believers who mess their salvation up, but also cases in the real life. The method is called "not truly saved". What does that mean? I know people who believed, were born again, lived a sanctified life for years, sacrificing many things for their faith, like their fame, even their job, they lost friends and relatives but sometime in their lifes for their own reasons they decided to go back to the sinful world and live as before. Weren't they truly saved? So what were they doing all those years in the church? What for? Were they masochists? Because being a christian means mainly sacrificies in every aspect of your life.

In the parable of the prodigal son we see a happy end, but in real life the end is not always happy. I always have in mind a couple such cases in my church. People who I met and had companionship with them for a long time.

Assurance of salvation: continuing thoughts on influence of Satan and his minions vs the Sons of Glory ( Hebrews 2:10).

I will start here with a brief analysis of Hebrews 2:10. This describes many becoming sons of glory; but also discusses the suffering involved with all true believers. We can compare this to 2 Timothy 3:12 to see how ALL who are Godly in Christ Jesus will in some form or another "suffer persecution." This can be compared with the "easy believism" rampant today; or even the bloodless sacrifice unacceptable to God which Cain presented in Genesis 4.

Satan is fallen and can never get out of that state. He is the "god of this world" however ( 2 Cor. 4:4) and as a usurper is given much authority which only increases at the end of his reign until the Lord suddenly destroys his puppet the Antichrist at Armageddon and finally judges Satan at the end of Revelation 20. We need to remember that Satan uses minions to convince us to sin; in order to gain legal authority over believers in particular; the world at large is already under his thumb to some respect. This is why we must be wary even of hell testimonies that perhaps Satan has placed to distract men to another false gospel as the remedy; or also could be products of a vivid imagination. Of course heaven testimonies need to be dealt with the same way.

I stated before although it may be buried as a response to older commentaries that I have heard of individuals who deny Christ at the end of their lives; and also who have had many years of solid teaching and still die lost and blinded; my own family had an example of that as well. There are many others who drift away for a time; some of which who come back after they are brought to a realization of their state. Sometimes God will pull back that curtain and blinder the enemy has on their souls and they will understand how wicked the enemy truly is; as well as their own horrible state without God's grace.

Assurance of salvation: Corulers with Christ or coconspirators with the Devil.

It is helpful to go back to the Creation story to see God's original plan and design for man; and the results of the fall. In this segment I will look at the enemy of our souls ( 1 Peter 5:8). Lucifer's fall is covered in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. When we see that narrative play out we see where sin actually originated and the cause was mainly pride. That blossomed of course to violence and other things ( Ezekiel 28:16) which I would briefly propose was an angelic society which may have started in heaven and perhaps led to a judgment between Genesis 1:1 and 1;2 sometimes called the "gap theory". For our purposes we will summarize that there had to be some time for the angels to be drawn to follow Lucifer; as well as to some time after all the angels sang to God's glory at creation before he fell ( Job 38:7-9).

Lucifer was much like man; in the sense that he was created to worship and adore the Lord; made flawless and beautiful and in innocence there was nothing wrong about that. He was a Cherub ( Ezekiel 28:14); therefore at an elevated status much like Adam and Eve were given authority to rule and reign over the rest of Creation in a unique role and status.

The serpent was used by the enemy to deceive through appealing to man's hidden knowledge that could somehow elevate his status and bring them something more than God intended as the real thrust of the temptation. A lack of TRUST in God is where the real issue is; and that of the heart of man which Jeremiah 17:9 makes it clear is desperately wicked. Therefore; what God made had the potential to become corrupted and wicked; in the same token one who is saved is made to glorify God and destined to become as Paul stated a "celestial body" ( 1 Corinthians 15:40). There is a resurrection for all men; but one to eternal soul damnation for the wicked ( John 5:29). The wicked cannot enter the Kingdom of God ( Rev. 21:27).

Continuing thoughts on salvation assurance in light of the plan of redemption for the whole world

My last segment showed how Christ will confess us before the Father; Luke 12:8 further indicates that He will confess us before the angels in heaven. This; of course depends on if we are sheep or goats; wheat or tares. It could be argued the first example is at least focused on the Tribulation and reactions toward the Jews who will be persecuted worldwide at that time ( Matt. 25:36). In the scriptures on wheat and tares things are clearly at first glance identical with both such individuals. This would be focused on those who fall away as well as being of Satan all along; or false converts rather than necessarily the unbelieving world at large who may have no belief in God at all or follow some other faith rather than Christianity.

This key is vital; for once someone has been given enough knowledge they are held to a higher standard. Again; though for now and these scriptures it shows those who started off that way and continue to heap up a reward of evil for themselves until they are cut off (see Psalm 91:8). The harvest is of course known as to the result ahead of time by Christ. We should all agree whatever a final destination is it is known by God and He is a God of all truth and justice as well as righteousness.

Being that apart from Divine Grace we cannot save ourselves or know how to follow the truth; ( Eph. 2:8) we must recognize that even if we have committed no obvious sin for a long time we are in the end no better off than others; we are worse in a Pharisaical sense proud of our own righteousness thinking we can earn our way or find our own way to heaven. It also leaves us vulnerable to Satan who appears as an angel of light ( 2 Cor. 11:14-15). Often missing in the subject of sin is the Father of lies who is behind mens thoughts of evil bringing out the worst in them. ( John 8:44). I will peer into that subject in my next writing.

Assurance of salvation: Focus on meaning of 1 Timothy 2:4 in light of current subject matter

The matter of Predestination becomes a thorny one on this verse. On the surface it would seem a Universalist mindset saying that all men eventually will be saved is a logical conclusion but clearly the Bible indicates otherwise. When we examine the same book in chapter 4 verse 10 we see that Christ is the Savior "especially of those who believe" which makes no sense unless we understand that He knows all who will eventually come to Him therefore in that sense while we were yet sinners; Christ died for us as we see in Romans 5:8. There are certain joys and comforts in this life as well for everyone; saved or lost to some extent; the subject being called "common grace" is a cause of no small stir among some; I would prefer to say delayed sentence.

This verse clearly is different when we understand the will of the Father toward Christ and all those predestined to come to the Lord as we see in the Book of John. There are verses in Isaiah where it states that He came to take away the sins of many ( Isaiah 53:12; also see Hebrews 9:28). It is clear also that "few will be saved" ( Luke 13:24).

The focus on much of this should be on God's method of salvation; all man centered attempts to somehow fulfill statements in the Sermon on the Mount may appeal to a humanist or even an atheist in principle; but in reality unregenerate man has no capacity to fulfill the law; let alone the deeper implications; both of omission and commission of righteousness and avoiding sins of those types as well.

His church is a part of His Body in a mystical sense but also in a very real one as well ( 1 Cor. 12:27). He purchased it or redeemed it with His blood; and this in a legally binding covenant as it were. God always keeps His end of a bargain; man on the other hand finds many schemes. Again; the key is if the Lord confesses we are His own ( Matt. 10:32).

LaTonya, very good news! Thanks for getting back to me.

Giannis

Prt. 3

The nation of Israel is a good example of this, too. At one time they were the people of God, a chosen nation, a royal priesthood, a peculiar people ( Ex. 19:6, Deut. 7:6, 10:15).

But due to their repeated idolatry and rebellion, even after the captivity in Assyria and Babylon, and then even more so in Jesus' day, the kingdom was taken from them and given to another people (the believers in Jesus). Romans speaks of the cultivated olive branch which represents Jesus as the holy root, and the Israelites as the branches. Paul speaks about the branches being broken off (unbelieving Jews) and the Gentile believers being ingrafted into the root (Jesus).

But is says that even if some of the branches were broken out because of unbelief and rejection of Jesus (Jews), some Jews who come to believe in Jesus can be grafted back in once again. This illustration never says that the whole nation of Israel is grafted back in, only those who truly return in repentance to God through Christ. These believing Jews then become a part of the holy nation, royal priesthood, peculiar people chosen of God (now the church of Jesus, which is the people that, were given the kingdom) ( 1 Peter 2:9).

Israel's selection by God and their subsequent rejection of Him and then being cast aside by God with God able to restore those who repent and return to Him in faith again, although very true and real, also is a type and shadow for those of the New Covenant who may fall away and wish to return to God through Christ. He will receive all who are contrite of heart, heavy laden with sin, and desiring to once again have fellowship restored with God in Christ. This is such wonderful news about the grace and mercy and desire of God to those who are to inherit the kingdom promised.

oops, I meant Judas may have thought Jesus was a false Messiah.

Giannis,

Can one who the father chooses and draws to Jesus turn away from Him in unbelief after having believed and received the Spirit and grace? How does this square with the concept of election and the irrevocable calling of the gift of God?

I agree that there are many places in Scripture that speak to the real possibility of a true believer apostasying. And also many Scripture verses that speak to the assurance of salvation to those called by election. .

So, what is the truth on the matter of "Once saved always saved"? This is a very confusing paradox taught in Scripture.

For, me, I take both aspects into account. I would never tell someone who once believed and fell away that they were never really saved in the first place or they would not have fell away. This would leave them even more unsure of the truth of the gospel they once believed. But for one who is a believer and has doubts, I would show them Scripture that gives assurance of salvation.

My sons, are a good example of this. They were exposed to the gospel over and over throughout their childhood, and they believed in Jesus up through high school. But through outside exposures of worldly ideas, they fell away. I would not tell them that they were not really saved as children and youths, nor would I say they are still saved in their present state of rejection. I would tell them that when they placed their faith in the gospel and believed in Jesus, they were indeed saved, but now in their unbelief, they need to repent and return to Jesus to once again be saved. Jesus will always receive any who call on Him for salvation through faith. His grace is available to all who seek Him, regardless if it is their first turning to Him or a turning back to Him after turning away from Him. But I would say that no one in rebellion to God in unbelief is in a safe and saved position before God and must turn back to Him for forgiveness and faith.

These real scenarios on this topic present a perplexity.

Giannis,

Good explanation and citations. I, too, think that Judas was chosen to be Jesus' disciple , given grace to believe, and later betrayed Jesus. He is not the only person in the church who has walked with the Lord with the Spirit indwelling and then betrayed the Lord. Some repent, as Judas is said to have done, but some never return to God. Judas is a an apt example of this. We do not know that he loved money more than Jesus. We do not know why he betrayed Jesus. But, we can know that sin caused Judas to betray Jesus in a premeditated way, having gone to the priests to make a deal.

It may have been that Judas was drawn away from Jesus due to wishing to receive monetary gain. But we do not know that because the text does not say that explicitly. So, it is speculation to say that the reason He betrayed Jesus was out of love for money.

Then again, for speculation purposes, perhaps Judas was disappointed that Jesus was NOT going to set up an earthly kingdom since Jesus had predicted his coming death on several occasions in the weeks prior to Judas making a deal with the priests. He may have at first believed that Jesus was the promised Messiah, but then hearing that Jesus would be killed caused Judas to doubt that Jesus was the Messiah, but another also Messiah. He would know that a false Messiah should be turned over to the authority of the priests. Judas may have been zealous for the truth of God and surmised that Jesus was an impostor. Of course, this would be an incorrect deduction on Judas' part, but I do think that he was looking for the coming of the Messiah and his kingdom and found Jesus' claims incongruous to His predictions of His death coming very soon.

We do know that Judas was influenced by the devil and succumbed to the deceptive temptations that were brought on him by the evil one. Yet, and Jesus did say that of all 12 apostles, only one was lost that the Father had chosen for Him. This begs the question at hand. ...... cont.

Hollyyyy is he to be praised!!!! his name is great!!!!

This passage mirrors what our nation is going through. The USA was once famous for our vast fields and vineyards as Moab was. To prevent further ruin to our nation, we must return to the LORD GOD and to HIS worship in truth and in Spirit.

John 4: 24

Let us all turn our hearts to the LORD and HIS precepts, HIS promises and glorify HIM.

Only the true GOD can and will bring to pass what HE promised as HE has spoken. The ruin of our nation is at hand and there is no escape except through submission unto the LORD JESUS CHRIST. 1 Timothy 2:1-3; 2 Chronicles 7:14, 15; 2 Peter 3:9; Romans 10: 9-12; 12:1,2

The LORD make HIS face to shine upon all on this forum, and be gracious unto all who call on HIS name: Numbers 6:25

April 15, 2023

Hello Richard.

I was going to write some more but I think I may have tired all of you. Maybe later. I have never heard of Dake's Bible.

Thanks for reading my posts anyway.

GBU

Assurance of salvation (continued thoughts after interim sabbatical as it were)

In short; I am not sure if arguing all points against the subject is worth it; as it likely won't change any minds. I will submit that some issues are a reward issue; as not all are going to get the prize as in Paul's example; and there are scriptures such as Revelation 3:11 stating that we can lose rewards. The basic idea i that Christ must succeed in bringing all His children to glory as that is part of the Father's plan which cannot be thwarted.

As to another point; yes it is true I have heard from one friend of mine who is an evangelist how his own mother turned away from the faith the last few months of his life; and it is true that his mother in law heard the Gospel for many years during home Bible studies and still never came to saving faith. It is also true that judgment is harsher for those who become reprobate from the faith than those who never believed ( 2 Peter 2:21).

THere are also things related to groups of people which must be carefully interpreted as opposed to individuals. That can skew things in the subject of Predestination; for example or even for those such as I that believe in the 5 points more or less can misinterpret something isolated.

I plan to continue this series; and think verses that describe Christ dying for the sins of the whole world may be a good place to begin. After an extensive study in Hebrews on such apparent contraditions to my premise a couple years back I may go there next to explore some of the warnings there as well as the Gospels and being a branch cast into the fire.

Whatever happens; we all should be searching the scriptures daily as the Bereans did. We still should fear God; knowing He is not just Savior; but Lord; King and Master of us all. Learning His ways is the most important thing; not just a bunch of facts about Him. The Word is our instruction manual but unless taken to heart it won't change us.

Hi Justjay

My belief about Judas differs from that of Chris.

Many wonder why did God select Judas as an apostle while He knew he would betray Him?

The answer is, for the same reason that He selected Saul as the first king of Israel while He knew he would fail, for the same reason he selected Balaam as a prophet while He knew he would betray Israel, for the same reason that He selected Jehasi as a successor of Elisha while He knew he would later go after money, for the same reason He selected the sons of Aaron as high priests while He knew they would eventually dissobey His commandments by placing strange fire so they got punished. For the same reason He created mankind although He knew we would fall into sin and He would be compelled to sacrifice Himself to save us. For the same reason He selects today ministers in various churches and gives them talents to work for Him but some bury them and end up in the outer darkness( Matthew 25:14-3). For the same reason He saves people that would later leave him and end up in hell.

Because He is a fair and good God who gives opportunities to everybody; to people to serve him when he knows that they want to do that and they are in a good spiritual condition and have the ability to carry the load of the Lord. It is like a father who although knows that his son is a lazy boy who will probably never succeed anything in his life, still loves him and does everything he can to help him. Gives him all sort of opportunities and sacrifices a lot for him. Because he loves him and wants to see him happy in his life. But the result depends on the son, not on the father.

Judas resembles much to Saul the King. He was a good choice in the beggining. He was born again llike Saul was given the Spirit of God and prophesied. But later ended up loving money more than Jesus like Saul loved honor and fame more than the God who made him a King. At the end satan entered him like Saul got possesed by an evil spirit, they both ended up in hell. Very sad.

Assurance of salvation: Continued after short respite

Dear folks: I appreciate the unprecedented amount of commentary; as you see one individual has sent me a ten part series defending how one can become lost after being found. I am sure that I could muster a response to every point made; although I am aware owning a Dake's Bible that there are 800 or so verses cited supporting that viewpoint not to mention that it is the premise of the entire Bible interpretation. Dake's has over 100,000 cross references; although at the time the author believed in separation of the races as was sadly the thought among some in the south in the 50's.

To make it clear; my basic premise is that one cannot be lost after truly being saved; and that based on Predestination; the work on the cross; etc. Or; I could quote 1 John where it states that he who says he is without sin is a liar. Hence only death or the rapture takes that out of the equation since in heaven we can no longer sin and fall away. The understanding from the Gospel of John in particular which I dissected some time last year chapter by chapter is quite helpful as to seeing how the Godhead has procured a plan for the Son to only bring those who the Father has given to the Son. Again; I cite Corinthians where it is stated that some make it as through the fire suffering loss; some have interpreted the wood; hay and stubble as only works done poorly. I also have brought out the case of Peter who continued to err even after the Resurrection as stated in Galatians for example back to the law (or as Paul states circumcision).

I would say that it is His sinless perfection which must indwell a true believer; but acted out by some more than others in regard to submission; commission and omission of certain behaviors. Romans 8 seems to make it pretty clear that God has foreseen glorification for all those called and chosen. That means of course sanctification must be there; or producing good fruit.

Correction:

I made a mistake when I said 6th bowl judgment. I meant to say, "By the time we get to the 6th seal judgment, God's wrath has begun ( Revelation 6:17)."

Jimbob,

(Part 3):

You say that the wrath of God is very different from the great tribulation. I disagree with that. I believe that the wrath of God is poured out during the last 3-1/2 years of the 7-year Tribulation. In Revelation, we see the seal judgments and the bowl judgments. By the time we get to the 6th bowl judgment, God's wrath has begun ( Revelation 6:17). Then we have the description of the 7 bowl judgments beginning with Revelation 15:1 and going through revelation 16:21. Revelation 15:1 calls it the wrath of God.

The 7th bowl judgment is poured out at the end of Revelation Chapter 16. This happens before the second coming of Christ. So, the wrath of God is poured out during the last 3-1/2 years, not after the second coming of Christ.

Jimbob, hopefully I have answered your questions, whether you agree with my answers or not. Now to be fair, I would like a turn to ask you a few questions. You said that you believe we are living in the beginning of sorrows time period right now! great tribulation will start soon. Also, you honestly believe we are much farther along in the Lastdays timeline than most True Believers think we are.

I believe I mentioned that we have been living in the "last days" for about 2,000 years now.

But, my first question is: Do you believe that the "beginning of sorrows" and "birth pains" are both referring to the first 3-1/2 years of the 7-year Tribulation?

If you believe the beginning of sorrows is the first 3-1/2 years, how far into this time frame do you believe we are in, or when did you first start believing we were in this time period?

If we are in the "beginning of sorrows" right now, would you say that Christ is coming back within the next 7-years?

Last question: If Christ does not come back within this time frame, how would you explain that?

If you choose to answer my question, I wish to thank you ahead of time. Blessings!

Jimbob,

(Part 2):

For your next question, "If all those who are left on the earth to start the 7-year tribulation period are non-believers then who would the war in ( Rev. 12:17) be against who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ?"

Here is my understanding of Revelation 12:17:

First of all, it says that the dragon was very angry with the woman (Israel), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, (and the remnant would be the believing Jews), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. So, as I think I already mentioned before, there is a 144,000 Jews who are sealed on their foreheads who will be protected. But there will be other Jews on the earth who will receive the testimony, especially from the two witnesses who are in the streets of Jerusalem.

But there will be people on the earth. And we know that there will even be an angel flying in heaven warning the people not to take the mark of the beast, but to believe in God. But their lives will be taken if they do not receive the number. They will not be allowed to live because they've rejected the system. And they'll be killed with the sword.

And that will fulfill this group that is underneath the altar when God says to avenge your blood is not yet, there's still more coming, more people who have to die during the Tribulation Period that will be taken up under the altar of God. But there will be other Jews and Gentiles here on the earth that basically will believe in Jesus Christ as Messiah and Savior. They will lose their lives. But after Satan sees that his efforts to chase the nation into the wilderness fail, he'll go after the remnants seed.

Jimbob,

(Part 1):

No offence taken. I can understand why you say some things don't seem to be adding up. I feel the same with some of the things you are saying so that makes perfect sense to me why you would say that. As for your first two questions, "Isn't it part of the pre-tribulation rapture belief that the Holy Spirit is taken away, removed from the earth when the church is raptured?" and "Wouldn't the Holy Spirit have to be here if people are being saved?"

As to the first question, I cannot speak for others that believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. But here is what I can speak for myself. I am assuming that these questions come from 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7. Those verses never say that the Holy Spirit has to be removed before the wicked one is revealed, so no, I cannot say that the Holy Spirit is taken away.

What that section of scripture tells me is that there is a restraining force that will continue to restrain until it's time for the antichrist to be revealed. I believe the restraining force is God's Spirit who will remove the hold, or restraining on the man of sin, and he will be revealed.

But does this mean that the Holy Spirit is gone from this earth just because the church has been removed? No, it does not. I believe that God in His fullness (Father/Son/Holy Spirit) is omnipresent. The Holy Spirit is not confined to just dwelling in the church but is also active in His ministry reaching out to those who are lost. So, with that being said, and to answer your question of "Wouldn't the Holy Spirit have to be here if people are being saved?", yes, I believe the Holy Spirit will still be functioning in His full capacity even after the church is removed. Why? Because God's Spirit is omnipresent.

Pray that my children gets saved. We are homeless. please pray that the Lord will provide us a place we can afford.

Amen.! Galatians 1:1-12 also proves there is only one gospel to follow. NO other book of any form, belief or cult will do.! Pray this day finds you well & still w/Christ.! I've believed all my life yet didn't truly come to know Him till I stopped listening to others & read, studied & learned for myself in last 2-3 years.! God is so good.! Just sad I waisted over 50 yrs getting here. Yet, it's all in His perfect timing.

GiGi The procedure went great my New Heart is still doing the job .they went in to see if I had any blocked arteries and check the pressure of the heart. All is well kidneys is functioning better since I am hydrated now they had to give me fluids to do that . Things are looking better thanks to God and your prayer's . Stay blessed

Yes Elihu... Good question...But the seed of Christ is a much greater seed then Abraham's seed....The Promise was both earthy and heavenly....But when God swore by his self that is indicative of a greater much greater Promise for all of humanity....A heavenly seed....As the Child that is born in us by faith is the H.G.....Is that Child of Promise...Yes Isaac was a child of Promise but was still under the stain and the spot of Adam...But Christ is very God the son. The only man worthy to be lamb of God...As Jesus carried no such spot or stain as did ADAM....Elihu my feelings are there has to be an Israel of God as in GAL 6:6....And Isaac was the beginning of the nation of Israel that became as the sands of the seas in multitude...But Christ also was also given a promise that his seed wd be multiplied as the stars of Heaven....Resulting in a perfect Israel....A ppl that cd not sin b/c they are bornagain of his incorruptible seed....Resulting in a heavenly Child born in us sinners...The H.G. That Child of Promise....Unless you receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there in....Which is that heavenly Israel....As we have borne the image of the earthy we must also bear the image of the heavenly....Via the seed of Christ his words of that new covenant....Via his blood at Calvary.

Elihu everything in the O.T. is just a type and shadow of something in the N.T....That is much better simply b/c its under the blood of Jesus....As the blood of Jesus is a greater blood ( sacrifice) then that of animals...ok GBU

Dear God the Father in Heaven, in Jesus Christ we pray in Your Name. You who are the King of kings and Lord of lords. You who have given us the light when You rose from death. We come to You now and ask for Jesus too come with His Light, praying that darkness once and for all depart from PropheticBuu. No darkness shall be in one of Your children, Lord. We proclaim in Jesus Christ the holy name of LIGHT COME, darkness disappear! Amen Ephesians 5:8-14

Thank You God for the answer to prayer in the Lord Jesus Christ name, You are Almighty Lord You God Is Great, Majesty, Eternal God, The Power is in You Lord and everything is subject to You, We will honor You with our lives forever and ever. Hallelujah Amen!

Please remember me and my family in your prayers ,