All Discussion PAGE 466

Is this Earl Bowman?

If so does God use the means of deception to get his message across? Or does he use all aspects of truth?

If God is IN you and God cannot lie, Would he use any means of deception to carry out his truth?

Proverbs 12:17-22.

Brother SSpencer:

I quoted you scripture.

You believe: because God CAUSES you to believe.

His WORKS.

He doesn't cause everyone to believe at the same time.

Paul didn't believe until God caused him to believe.

Everything has an APPOINTED TIME; it the works of God, his timetable.

He chose Jacob; and not Esau, before they were ever conceived.

Hebrews 11:20 By faith (by the spirit of Christ) Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, concerning THINGS TO COME.

Jacob; the last, was given dominion over the first.

Genesis 27:37

The first born of flesh is not always the first born of spirit.

Matthew 19:30 ... The first shall be last and the last first ....

After the second resurrection, when Esau stands in his former estate, his flesh, he will be caused to believe and the yoke will be broken from his neck.

Genesis 27:40

All things were maded new by Christ resurrection, but all things have an appoint time to come to TRUTH.

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter POWER over the clay, of the same lump, to make one a vessel of HONOUR, and the other a vessel of DISHONOUR?

Daniel 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the world are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and NONE can stay his hand, or say unto him, what doest thou?

Jeremiah 18:4 And the vessel he made of clay was MARRED in the potter's hand, so he MADE it again ....

Psalms 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit (when he chooses to do so), they are CREATED and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Ecclesiastes 3:1 To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven

Psalms 123:2 ...so our eyes wait upon the lord, UNTIL he have mercy upon us ....

NOT YET are ALL THINGS put under him; BUT, when they are, God will be ALL IN ALL.

God Bless you, my brother in Christ.

Hi Jema. There are several biblical timeline charts on the Web, though probably the hard copies would be preferable. Study Bibles should also have such a chart as part of their appendix of other helps, as my Ryrie Study Bible has. For me, I've benefitted from them more when considering the various kings of Judah & Israel & the prophets who ministered during their reigns. This helps to appreciate those prophecies much better & seeing them prophesying as another prophet in the other kingdom was uttering simultaneously. Of course, some dates given in the charts must be somewhat fluid, but on the whole, I think a good job of preparing such charts to help us, was done.

Your points are well taken Tammy. It's not just the differing words (i.e. wheat, tares, clusters of grapes) that are significant. It is also the application as to when & where these judgements are performed (& we can note several judgements made during those final days, whether of Reward, Great Tribulation, the Rapture, of Israel, or surviving Gentiles, of the anti-Christ, Satan & his angels). Anyway, we are not alone in this; there are many other interpretations to just these two passages, which may or may not be closer to the Truth. The benefit of hindsight (when prophecy has been given & we see their fulfilment in the Bible or in our world), is always much more accurate, even though we can still find disagreement. So these passages, like the matter of pre or post tribulation rapture, can never be resolved until the final outcome/evidence, yet we are told to be watchful & careful in our lives. But why people lean to one or the other(s) positions of the Rapture should be carefully considered as part of our examination of the Scriptures & this is what I hope readers here would be doing & also waiting on the Lord's Help.

Thanks for your time Tammy - I have appreciated it & I think we'll close off this subject here, finding it beneficial to provoke our further search of the Scriptures. Every blessing sister.

Donna Stephens, aka Ruby Lea Read aka Earl Bowman. Whichever you truly are, your style and theology give away that one person is behind these post, I think.

So, I will ask you to let me know, Donna, are you also Ruby Lea Read and/or Earl Bowman? It would be good to know.

Dear Lydia, can you tell us what you want help with? We would love to be of help to you.

oops I meant to say that Jesus has power over Satan.

(Part 5):

Jimbob,

Paul wrote to Timothy in 1 Timothy 4:1, and he said now the Spirit speaks expressly that in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons. We have that in our day. It even happened back in Paul's day and they thought that it would really be a serious time. It was for them, but it's gotten worse!

As far as endurance goes, God produces endurance in us. God works in our lives to produce the endurance we would not be able to manufacture by our own efforts. He does this as we properly respond to our trials. When we go through trials and hardships, even severe persecution, God gives us the ability to endure through them.

You listed persevere as a definition which is correct. Perseverance of the saints means that God keeps believers by his power, and strengthens their faith so that they can persevere. Perseverance of the saints is God's work. God uses various methods to cause believers to persevere. We are put through trials, we are tested, but we will persevere, we will endure because Christ in us gives us the ability to endure.

Lastly, if I may share a couple of quotes:

"The one who endures - This statement in one sense describes the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Genuine disciples will endure to the end of their life or the end of this age not by their own efforts but because the indwelling Spirit enables them to endure to the end. Endurance does not save anyone but it demonstrates that one is truly saved! Stated another way, it is not one's endurance (self-effort or works) that saves them but that one is able to endure because of the fact that they are saved."

(Charles Spurgeon)

"Faith that perseveres is faith endowed and sustained by the indwelling Holy Spirit of Christ.

(Matthew Commentary)

Blessings in Christ!!!

(Part 4):

Jimbob,

I agree with you on 1 Peter 1:7 that "This verse tells us our faith will be tested before the appearing of Jesus Christ." Christ has not appeared yet, but yet our faith is being continually tested every day. We do not know the exact time that Christ will appear, but our faith is presently being tested.

Here is what I see in 1 Pet. 4:12-13:

In Verse 12, he says beloved (which is an affectionate term for those who are loved by God, the objects of His love). Then he says think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you. Don't be surprised. Don't think it strange. The term fiery trial in the Old Testament is the word for furnace, and it's used for the refining processes of the metals. It was introduced to us a little in 1 Peter 1:6-7, wherein you greatly rejoice, (that is, concerning your salvation), though now for a season, if need be, you are in heaviness through manifold temptations (or trials): that the trial of your faith, being much more precious than that of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto the praise, and honor, and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

So, he's already introduced it and said that you rejoice over your salvation, but for our time here on the earth, you'll be going through the fire, the refining process. He says think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you. Trial means to approve of something after testing.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it says "falling away." The Greek word is APOSTASIA. It's the word apostasy. So first of all, there must come an apostasy first. Apostasy means that people will leave the truth of the gospel, leave the faith in Christ, and it will be a godless world more and more. So first of all, there must be an apostasy against God and the gospel.

(Part 3):

Jimbob,

2 Timothy 2:11 is the creed for the servant. When we see the phrase "it is a faithful saying" in the New Testament, it is literally, "the word is faithful." It was a phrase used in the New Testament church to say that these phrases were going around various churches, coming from various teachers and apostles that were not found in scripture, but were considered to be the word of God at that time. There was no New Testament. So, whenever a teacher says this is a faithful saying, it means this has been established in all the churches from the apostles and others, and it can be considered to be the word of God.

2 Timothy 2:12-13 should be taken together. If we believe not, yet he abides faithful: he cannot deny himself. This is the creed for a servant. Whatever hardship I must go through to serve Christ, if I be dead with Him, if I suffer, I'm going to live with Him and I'm also going to reign with Him. I've entered into the sufferings of Christ, not my sufferings, so that as I identify with His life and sufferings now, one day I'm going to reign with Him.

In Matthew 24, if I begin with Verse 1, it is easy to see that Jesus is speaking to the Jews, not Gentiles, and not the church. Matthew 24:9 says, "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." These are to the Jews. We are not suffering, nor will we suffer any of these things. The reason I say this is because Jesus is going to give direction as to what they (Jews) are to do about it. This lines up of with the fourth horse, the pale horse in Revelation 6:7-8 where death comes. He says, they will kill you: and you should be hated of all nations for my name sake.

(Part 2):

Jimbob,

Why would the 12 be hated? Because they preached Christ. Jesus knew ahead of time what their fate would be. They would be persecuted, tortured, and except for Judas who killed himself, they would die horrible deaths. They would suffer martyrdom. Did they endure to the end? Yes, they never wavered in their faith, all the way to their death. They endured to the end of their lives, and it would be safe to believe they were saved. But Jesus was not speaking to the church telling them they must endure the 7-year tribulation period, and if they endured, they would be saved.



This is the same thing we see in Matthew 24:13, and Mark 13:13. We have to take these verses in context of who Jesus is actually speaking to. He wasn't speaking to the church. The church was not in existence yet. In Matthew Chapter 24, and Mark Chapter 13, Jesus is speaking to the Jews (Jewish believers).

I am looking at the other verses you gave. The first being 2 Timothy 2:11-12. That needs to be taken along with Verses 7-14 where Paul is giving Timothy instruction for service. Paul is confined, and in Verse 9, he says he suffers trouble (because of the gospel). He suffered in prison, was put in chains, and beaten. But in 2 Timothy 2:10, Paul says, "therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes.

The word endure here is HUPOMENO which means to remain under. Paul says I remain under all of my difficult circumstances because I can be bound, but the gospel can't. Therefore, I endure all these things. He says I preach the gospel wherever I am enduring the hardships, so that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Paul endured through tribulation/trials.

Hi Jimbob,

Sorry for the late reply. I have not had a chance to be on here for a couple days. I just read your address to myself and brother Chris. This might be a little long, so I apologize ahead of time. I will begin this as (Part 1):

I had previously asked you if you were referring to the word HUPOMENO because #5278 in the Strong's Concordance is the word HUPOMENO. However, both the Textus Receptus and the Greek Interlinear use show it as HUPOMEINAS, not HUPOMENO. Those words are closely related but when properly used, they convey different meanings. I don't know why Strong's says HUPONEO when the Greek text actually uses HUPOMEINAS. If you own a Greek Interlinear Bible, you will see the correct usage.

HUPOMEINAS is used in three places in the NT ( Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, and Mark 13:13). It is #5278 in the Strong's Concordance, but the word is HUPOMEINAS, not what's listed in the Strong's. This word (HUPOMEINAS) describes a person who is saved. A saved person (will) endure to the end. Some take these verses and try and tie them into the end-time tribulation period, and they say that the church will go through this and the ones who shall endure to the end, they will be saved. They say that you have to endure to the end of the tribulation. But that is not the proper context of these scriptures.



In Matthew 10:22, Jesus is speaking to His 12 Apostles. This is the training of the 12 which is outlined for us in Verses 16-42. Jesus is not speaking about people enduring through the end time tribulation. In Verse 22, Jesus says, "And ye (the twelve) shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." He's speaking to the 12.

Did Jesus eat the Passover? Tradition or scripture? Does it matter? For study not to offend.

Passover Day when the lambs were killed is the 14th of Abib/Nisan. Exodus 12:3-33 Leviticus 23:5 Numbers 33:1-3 Mark 14:12 Luke 22:7

The 15th of Abib/Nisan is the first day of the 7-day Unleavened Bread Feast, first day and the last day are Sabbath days, it starts at sundown and is when they ate the Passover and after midnight they left Egypt. Numbers 33:1-3 Deuteronomy 16:1-8

From the Last Supper to the burial, Matt. 26:17-75 Matt. 27:1-61 Mark 14:12-72 Mark 15:1-47 Luke 22:1-71 Luke 23:1-56 John 13:1-38 through John 19:1-42.

This day started at sunset. On this day we have Jesus and his disciples going into the guest chamber, they ate a meal, Jesus initiated the New Covenant, they sang songs, Jesus washed their feet, and they were there for hours. They went to Gethsemane where Jesus prayed, Judas came with the priests and a band of men and officers,

They took Jesus to Annias and Caiaphas and was judged. Then early that morning they took Him to Pilate and Herod and back and they said crucify Him. They nailed Jesus to the cross the 3rd hour, 9 AM, Jesus died at the 9th hour, 3 PM, and was put in the tomb, all this in one day, before the sunset, the 14th of Abib/Nisan Passover day.

In Luke 22:14-16 Jesus told them He was not going to eat this Passover with them. In John 18:28 they would not go in the hall, they would be defiled because they have not eaten the Passover, and later that day they had to catch the blood and put it on the altar.

The Passover meal was eaten after sunset and before midnight, the 15th of Abib/Nisan, Jesus was in the tomb.

Jesus was the Passover Lamb and the First and the Last. He was nailed to the cross at the same time the first Tamid Lamb was sacrificed, all the sin sacrifices were put on top and He died at the same time the last Tamid Lamb was sacrificed and put on top.

Hopefully, this is enough to study.

God bless,

RLW

What do people mean that NT gospel teachings aren't so necessary to follow? That they're a wrongdoer period? Following them could be essential to our faith. They're the fruit of the indwelling spirit, but it's not about turning from sins.

Anyone who believes we must turn from OT sins as evidence of faith would mean they don't need to follow NT Gospel teachings much.

OT sins are completely covered, but the Gospel teachings are not that covered. NT Gospel teachings are what make faith evident in a person.

It says if we don't obey his commands the truth is not in you. It must mean those commands - the Gospel teachings - to love thy neighbor as thy self.

I hope you agree.

Thanks and I agree with what you on It's Christ who is our gift.

However I was commenting on your "unique display" or style, not theology. Your display is familiar.

I've been away for a couple of weeks.

If my memory serve me correctly there used to be a Donna Stephen's a few years ago that visited the site briefly but I don't believe that's you.

Let me ask you; Are you saying salvation is universal whether one accepts that gift or not?

I think I get what you are saying . Adams wife came from his rib and Christ was wounded in his rib cage for us , John Ch 19 verse 34 and 1st John Ch 5 verse 5-8 . The first Adam and the last , both got there wives from their own body .

Brother SSpencer:

I read your comments; I know you believe salvation is a gift of God, by the grace and mercy of God.

If it's a gift; then all the WORKS have to be the works of God, otherwise man would contribute to salvation.

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it IS GIVE (gifted) in the behalf of Christ, not only to BELIEVE on him (the WORD) ...

Our believing is the work of God, we don't even contribute that to our salvation.

We were resurrected with the FAITH of Christ, a gift, not our doings.

God bless your, my brother in Christ.

if a husband likes to dress as a infant.does the bible allow her to file for divorce?

I am not a 100% christian. I am off and on can i have some help?

A very unique display of theology you have there Donna Stephens.

?

Amen to that Pierre 1939 .

Today is the day that most Christians celebrate the last supper of Jesus and His disciples. It is a Passover supper from what I can tell.

I participated in a Passover meal at a church I visited. It was very interesting to learn how the Passover was celebrated and its meaning in light of Christ's fulfillment.

I don't think that I would make this a habit in my life, but it was a helpful and edifying occasion for me to at least do once. Perhaps I'll get the opportunity to do so again, as long as it is celebrated by Christians and the significance of each aspect is explained in light of Christ's fulfillment.

We can do so as an option, but I believe we are not to practice the OT rites as an obligation because Christ's work not only fulfilled the OT Mosaic system, but also put it away forever, since it was a shadow and a tydpe pointing to the reality of Christ, His person and His salvific work.

The book of Hebrews is a good read concerning how Jesus fulfilled the OT Mosaic covenant completely and faithfully. No one else can do so. That is why we need a Savior.

So, recall how poignant this last supper must have been for Jesus and then later for His disciples after He was crucified, dead, resurrected, and ascended as they recalled the supper and all that followed whenever they together partook of the Lord's Supper. The disciples of all people knew the significance of the Passover meal and its meaning and then understood even more so the OT ordinance in light of what Jesus did to fulfill this ordinance in the shedding of His blood and the way God passes over our sins because we died with Christ and rose with Him spiritually speaking.

How precious is our Passover Lamb , slain for us, for the forgiveness of sins, and the redemption from the kingdom of darrkness into the kingdom of light, and for the deliverance from evil and the evil one.

Agreed Cindy, I don't think there is a Scripture where we are instructed to address Satan, but only to resist Him as Jesus did int he wilderness. Eve should have done that, too, along with Adam. But we know so much more that they did about good and evil before they sinned.

But maybe what Jesus said to Peter, "Get thee behind me, Satan. So we maybe we can say, "Get thee behind Jesus, Satan. Since Jesus has power of Satan. And to quote Scripture when we sense that Satan or one of his fallen ones are speaking to us or harassing us or tempting us.

Most of the time, what is bothering us is our own sinfulness, and we need to also recognize that we draw ourselves into sinful situations or temptations. As God's redeemed children, we do have protection from the devil and his desire to harm us both physically and spiritually. We can remind ourselves of this and know that God is willing and ready to protect us when we repent and turn to Him for help and forgiveness and protection from sin and wickedness around us.

Alex, I believe that the kingdom we inherit is the new heavens and the new earth, not one on this earth, the New Jerusalem. But blessings to you, Alex. I will not involve myself in a discussion on this matter further at this time. Instead I will read the

Scriptures you give me and also investigate further what the Scripture say about the inheritance of the saints-the kingdom of God.

Dear Alysasamaksm,

Jesus instructed His disciples to make disciples of all nations (through the gospel) and to baptize these disciple in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and for them to teach these disciples all that He commanded of them. Matt. 28:19.

Alyssa,we are to believe the truth about Jesus for salvation, which is the gospel message of His sinless life to fulfill all the requirements of the laws for us, His physical suffering and death on the cross to satisfy the offense of our sins to God and bring forgiveness of sins, and His bodily resurrection, that brings to us justification before God and the guarantee that we will be resurrected bodily and be glorified at His second coming. We are to believe that He is God in the flesh, the eternal Son of the Father who, though God and Spirit, became man while keeping all His divinity, to be our Saviour according to the promises made throughout the Old Testament.

Alyssa, these are the basic beliefs for one to believe for salvation. We are to believe that our salvation lies solely in Jesus and we receive this salvation by faith through grace upon receiving the truth of the gospel. Water baptism is a command of Jesus26:20for those who come to faith in Him. ( Matt. 28:19)

Peter preached as such in His sermon at Pentecost. ( Acts 2:28) and again in Acts 3:19. Paul preached as such in Acts 17:30 and 20:21 and 26:20. Preaching repentance and turning to God in faith in Jesus through the gospel message. The practice of those who believed was to be baptized following conversion.

So, while it is not absolutely necessary for salvation for one to be baptized, Jesus did command believers to be baptized, just as He commanded people to believe in Hm to be saved. Baptism is an outward sign of an inward spirtual cleansing and of being crucified with Christ and buried (thus the waters of baptism) and raised with Christ (thus the coming out of the waters of baptism) and seated with Him in the heaven.

GiGi Gbu but you need to read a bit in Rev.11:15...The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our lord and his Christ....And he shall reign for ever and ever....The kingdoms of this world is implying right here on this earth...Which is beautiful for situation as DAVID said...Nothin more beautiful then Christ in us sinners right here on this earth.

...... Psalms 48:2 beautiful for situation the joy of this whole earth...And as Jesus said the Kingdom is gonna be with in you...Abide in me and in you ...GBU G....He is gonna reign for ever and ever right here on this earth...seed time and harvest forever...

When we read about the sower and his precious seed as in matthew 13...We should keep in mind that great Promise in Gen.26.4...When God made that Promise that Christ wd be multiplied as the stars of heaven and Gal, 3:16...Now unto Abraham and his seed were the promises made but he said not unto seeds plural (natural Israel ) but unto 1 seed which is Christ....Thus its Christ that is gonna be multiplied as the stars of heaven...Thus the sower and his precious seed the words of that book the New Covenant that Jesus wrote with his own blood....But his offspring are not flesh and blood Children....But spirits as Jesus said that which is born of the spirit is spirit...Which is the H.G. a spiritual Child...The Children of Promise..An Israel of God... Whosoever receiveth one such child in my name receiveth me... Romans 9 :8... Flesh and blood are not the Children of God its only the Children of Promise that are counted for that good seed which is the living words which are the seeds of the sower the living words of God....The contents of that book in the fathers right hand that Jesus wrote with his own blood...Thats y Jesus was saying take heed that you despise not one of these lil ones....The babes and sucklings are his Children that can worship God with a perfect Praise....That are Gonna be born in us via his seed...In heaven their angels do always behold the face of my father....That new born babe desiring the sincere milk of the word is a baby Christ that is gonna be born in us...The Children of PROMISE....But the spirit of truth that is gona be born in us cannot speak for while...He is just an infant spirit....Our 1st born, our only son....The tongues they heard at Pentecost was the babes and sucklings crying out in the spirit....That New born babe desiring the sincere milk of the word..is The H.G. a living heavenly being born in them...As we have borne the image of the earthly we must also bear/birth the image of the heavenly...Which is the H.G.a living being...OK TY

I'm very sorry what happened to you. thank you very much for your advices. May God Bless You Cindyt.

Alex,

part 3

the kingdom of Christ is NOW. He is in heaven at the right hand of God reigning over his saints in heaven and on earth.

The only way for the Jews or Israelites to enter this kingdom is by the blood of Jesus through faith by grace, just like the Gentiles.

So, as you say, today if You hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, but turn to Jesus and be saved. This is what the Jews and Israelites must do to possess the promised Messianic kingdom. We all must be born again in order to enter the kingdom, as Jesus said to Nicodemus. All who trust in Jesus to save them, believing all He says about how we are saved by Him, will indeed be saved.

The world is full of unbelievers who need to hear and believe the gospel message of Jesus. The nation of Israel is far from this saving faith as a nation, being mostly secular now. And the Gentile world is also in rebellion to God and not in Christ's kingdom either.

We should pray for the true gospel message be proclaimed far and wide to unbelievers in hopes that some will be saved. All of the elect of God will come to faith. God knows how many and who these are. He will work in them to bring them to salvation using His gospel and believers to share it.

Alex, we can depend on the blood of Jesus, shed for us. We can obediently be baptized in water in the name of the Father and

of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (It was not part of the OT system, but of the new, as it was and has been practiced by the apostles and the church since Jesus said those words. We can walk in faith with the newness of life as we are a new creation. We can confess our sins and know that Jesus will forgive us and cleanse us from alll unrighteousness.

I know this is long. But I hope that you are blessed today in the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Alex,

Part 2

...He will give the Kingdom up to the Father that God will be all in all (the only Sovereign of the Kingdom). 1Cor. 15:24

Jesus will rule with His Father forever over the saints and it will be a kingdom of joy, peace, love, power, grace, and righteousness. (Rom.14:17)

God will rule over the kingdom as the only Sovereign. He will rule over heaven and the lake of fire ensuring the blessedness of the saints and the eternal punishment of those under His wrath.

Jesus told Pilate that His Kingdom was not of this world ( John 18:36) It is spiritual and heavenly and also within us.

It is not a Jewish kingdom because Jesus said that the kingdom would be taken from them and given to another nation. ( Matthew 21:43) (This nation being the saints of God-both Jew and Gentile) Jesus' words were fulfilled in 70 A.D. on the generation that was then present. Matthew 22:7; 23:38; Luke 21:20,24) The Romans surrounded Jerusalem and lay siege to it. They burned the temple and the city to the point of desolation. 1.1 million Jews were killed in this siege. Thousands upon thousands were taken captive and enslaved.

Even though there is a nation called Israel today does not mean that there will be an earthly kingdom with the Messiah. About 25% of the Jews worldwide emigrated to Israel since it was given nation status in 1948. The national archives of the Jews were destroyed in the 70A.D.. This means all of the records of peoples families and lineages. The other tribes of Israel have been scattered all over the world and intermixed with the Gentiles. There are a small percentage of these tribes in Israel now. So we cannot say that the whole nation ahs been regathered. But even if there comes a national regathering of ALL of Israel, this does not confirm that there will be an earthly kingdom with Jesus reigning. His kingdom is one of righteousness where sin does not enter it. This world is sinful and corrupt...

This siege ended the time of the Jews and the OT Mosaic system.