All Discussion PAGE 474

Jimbob,

I don't see anything in the words I wrote that would indicate that I was offended, but I can assure you that you did not offend me in the least bit. I agree with you on 2 Timothy 3:16. The early church would have also agreed on this even though the KJV wasn't even in existence at that time.

As for your statement that "Everyone can't read the Greek language like you can Jesse, but most everyone can own a KJB and a Strongs Concordance to get the True meaning of the words in the Original languages." I completely agree with you on that also. It is true that everyone can own a King James Bible and a Strongs Concordance. But it is also true that everyone has the opportunity to learn to read Greek language if they so choose. It is available for everyone just the same as the KJB and Strong's Concordance is available to everyone. Please know that I am in no way claiming to have a greater understanding than anyone else just because I have learned to read Greek. I would never claim that.

You're telling me that being able to read the Greek text may not be as helpful to me as I think it is, but how can you possibly know how much it has helped me? I can tell you that it has helped me tremendously in my studies. Wouldn't this statement be the same as saying that one who finds looking up Greek words in the Strong's Concordance to be helpful might not be as helpful as they think?

Again, you have not offended me at all. I do agree with some of the things you post, but not everything. I know you don't agree with me on everything either, but I would hope that you might agree with me on something I share. If we couldn't find common ground on anything, what would be the use of these discussions?

God Bless you also!

STU,

You have given the correct wording of Luke 1:27. That's exactly what it says. My question to you is how do you get "Mary the mother of God was without sin" out of that verse? I don't see how you come up with that. Please help!

(Part 2):

STU,

You can actually go online to the Vatican archives, and they will tell you that the bible was once banned (By the Roman Church). Pope Pius IV had a list of forbidden books, and he prohibited them. The bible was on the list. Here is what he had to say:

"Whoever reads or has such a translation in his possession cannot be absolved from his sins until he has turned in these BiblesBooks in the vernacular dealing with the controversies between Catholics and the heretics of our time are not to be generally permitted but are to be handled in the same way as Bible translations."

For 600 years, the Roman Catholic Church attempted to keep translations of the Bible out of the hands of the people. Bible-believing people were mercilessly persecuted, and their Scriptures were destroyed. Those who possessed Bibles without a license were commanded to deliver them up to the Catholic authorities under threat of inquisition terrors. In most cases, even after turning their bibles in, they would still be labeled as heretics and burned at the stake. Their crime was that they were in possession of a bible. Bible translators and distributors were imprisoned and burned. Even after the Catholic inquisition was outlawed in many lands in the 18th and 19th centuries, the popes continued to condemn the free distribution of Scripture."

(Part 1):

STU,

History tells a different story. There was a long period in church history where the Roman Church forbad the reading of the Bible. Not only was it forbidden to read, but the Roman Church also would not allow anyone to be in possession of a bible. If you do a study on church history, particularly the Dark Ages (A.D. 500-1500), you will find out that the Roman Church burned bibles, and also burned at the stake those who were in possession of a bible. No one was allowed to question the teachings of the Papacy, and it made perfect sense as to why they would not allow the reading of the bible. If one was allowed to read for themselves, the fear was that they would discover the gross errors of the church.

The Roman Church, at the Council of Toulouse (1229 AD) had this to say:

"We prohibit also that the laity should not be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books." (Canon 14). A few years later (1234), at the Council of Tarragona, had this to say:

"No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments, and if anyone possesses them, he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days, so that they may be burned."

During the Inquisition, which was established by Pope Gregory IX in 1233, there was an "Index of Forbidden Books" which Roman Catholics were forbidden to read or possess. The bible was on that list. Bibles were being burned. Only certain high-ranking clergy were allowed to be in possession of a bible, and according to them, only they had the authority to interpret what the bible taught.

During the Dark Ages, even priests were unable to read the Scriptures for themselves. As a result, they were unable to compare the false doctrines sweeping through the Roman church against the doctrines of the Word of God. In Italy (Predominantly RC), it was still illegal to own a Bible until 1870!

Jesse I'm sorry if I offended you, I promise you that was not my intent. You said "you appreciate that I enjoy Greek and sharing Greek words" I don't enjoy Greek, when I do share Greek words its only to show the True meaning of the word from the KJB to be helpful to others who don't use a Concordance. I study the Word of God using a Strongs Concordance which gives the True meaning of those words in the Hebrew language and the Greek language. I do see the Word of God as being God breathed, ( 2 Tim. 3:16) it is exactly what God wanted it to be for these last generations, and that would especially apply for us today. Everyone can't read the Greek language like you can Jesse, but most everyone can own a KJB and a Strongs Concordance to get the True meaning of the words in the Original languages. You said you do own a Concordance so I would assume you find them to be helpful for finding deeper Truths from the Word of God through the meanings of the words in the Original language. You said you sometimes enjoy reading the Greek text over the English Bible because it brings out much more meaning? If the KJB is the Inspired Word of God (which it is) then that's why the Strongs Concordance works with it to get the Original meanings of the words. Modern versions have changed the words so you can't use a Strongs Concordance to get the True meaning of all their words. I honestly mean no disrespect Jesse, but being able to read the Greek text may not be as helpful to you as you think it is. If we Believe the Words of the LORD are pure Words and that God preserved His Words for ever, ( Ps. 12:6-7) then we do have those pure, God breathed Words today. Right? That would be the KJB. Again I truly mean no offence Jesse, I am learning on this site everyday, we all should be. Its not about who knows what, it should only be about seeking and accepting His Truth from His Word. We can all learn from one another, as I have said many times Truth matters. God Bless you Jesse.

(Part 2):

Jesus Himself teaches this in Matthew 24:13 when He says, "But the one who has endured unto the end, this one will be saved." Endurance is a major characteristic being developed in each believer through the maturation process. It is only through endurance that the gospel is preached, and it is only through the development of endurance that a believer is able to hold steady through the tribulations and hardships of life to reach the end when all believers will reign with Christ. Paul, in encouraging the Thessalonians concerning the patient waiting for the coming of Christ, writes in 2 Thessalonians 3:5, "Now may the Lord guide your hearts into the love of God, and into the endurance of Christ." Enduring circumstances is a fundamental characteristic of the person who is saved.

Chapter 21 of Luke presents the hardships that will come upon those who belong to Christ in the last days. In our study text, Luke 21:19, Jesus commands His followers to gain their souls through the endurance of these hardships. This statement is parallel to one found in Matthew 24:13, "But the one having endured unto the end shall be saved." Both of these gospel writers present the teaching of Jesus as saying that the one who belongs to Christ will endure unto the end. Patient endurance, according to Jesus, is a characteristic of the one who is saved; it is not the work ethic of the believer.

Blessings to you in Christ!

Brother Chris,

Thank you for the additional clarification. I think we're on the same page here. If we take Matthew 24:13 from the English text, it looks like it is a challenge for us to endure. But the Greek text a different understanding. It gives the proof of those who are saved. They will endure.

Matthew 24:13 (KJV) "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Matthew 24:13 (TR) "HO DE HUPOMEINAS" translated the one having endured.

And yes, you are correct. The Textus Receptus has the word HUPOMEINAS. This is one who remains under or one who endures. It is a form of the word HUPOMENO which is made up of the preposition HUPO meaning under, and MENO which means to remain. Also, MENO (Remain/Abide/Stay) by itself denotes permanency. Once a person has experienced a spiritual birth by receiving Christ, that person is then abiding and remaining in the Lord because of the Spirit of God abiding in him. This position, or condition, can never change, because the Spirit of God forever lives within the spirits of His people. This also would apply here. We endure to the end because we have Gods Spirit permanently abiding in us.

But both words (HUPOMENO/HUPOMEINAS) are very close. As for HUPOMENO possibly implying that salvation cannot be guaranteed now unless the Christian works hard at it to maintain his endurance & thus receiving salvation at the end, I have never looked at that word that way. But I do see how one might come to that conclusion.

You mention the reformers, which I think is a great example of enduring to the end. This also proved their salvation. They could only endure because of the indwelling of Gods Spirit.

I am running out of space so I will need to send a part 2.

I believe the verse says what it means. To look circumspectly to see what the topic is, what is being said, here are the verses:

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

When you see the word "Then" it's telling you what is coming next, after the Beginning of Sorrows, and then you see the word "And" three times, that is a continuation/inclusion of things happening at that time, then we see the word "BUT", meaning a totally different statement but connected to what's being said. So, the topic is first, speaking to believers about what will happen during the end times, warnings. But the person that is able to endure all those things, until the end, those very people shall be saved. Logically, if you don't endure those things, you will not be saved.

If Mary was not made clean by her fetus....Christ in her.... How in the world are we gonna be made clean by his words spoken unto us....And remember Jesus was the LIVING word made flesh and BLOOD....The living word contains HIS BLOOD...As my words are spirit and life...Life is in his blood the living word....But not the written word that old covenant...Calvary was a N.C.

Just as God's seed formed Christ in MARY....The seeds of the sower are gonna form Christ in us.... Gal. 4:19....My lil children of whom i travail in birth again till Christ is formed in YOU....The wheat is a baby Christ the H.G. That Child of Promise simply b/c the sower of that good seed is Christ the bridegroom....Thats y he has to know us...He wants to KNOW everybody...Thats y Isaiah saw Knowledge covering the whole earth as the waters covering the seas...This knowledge is an INTIMACY that is gona result in a birth of Christ in every body...Thats y Jeremiah saw all men in travail and birth pains...30:6...Thus an Israel of GOD...If i be lifted up i will draw all men unto me....Thats y the woman in Rev 12:5 is giving birth....Remember Jesus said the field is the world...Where that good seed will be sown...Thus he will impregnate this whole world with is precious seed. ....3 of the prophets saw this whole world at rest and full of his GLORY....That was the N.C. God said he wd know them all from the least to the greatest Jeremiah 31:34...Thats everybody.. the world...But the book in the right hand of the father has to be opened 1st which is that N.C. that he wrote with his own blood...Thats when we will sing a new song...We will no longer sing this Churchanity Song...(Sunday go to meeting song)....As Bro. Paul said when that which is prefect is come that which is done in parts will be done away with....She brought forth a man child that is gonna rule all nations, thats right here on this beautiful EARTH...The manchild is the H.G. the gift of God to us sinners...Which is mankinds fruit unto God..ok Gb

please remember me and my family today in your prayers

Chris

Certain translations of the Bible were prohibited by the Catholic Church because they were considered heretical or contained anti-Catholic commentaries1. However, reading the Bible was never prohibited by the Church1. In fact, it was encouraged by many Church leaders throughout history.

GIGI

It is written in Luke 1:27 in the Holy Bible in KJV on this site.

"To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary."

To all the people who answered my question the Holy Bible does state that in Luke 1:27

"To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary."

Apologies for the delay in responding to your question, KD7IVS.

We see these names, Urim & Thummim mentioned in various passages (e.g. Exodus 28:30, Leviticus 8:8, Numbers 27:21). Not much is known about them (there is even ignorance & debate amongst the Jews about this), except that they were likely stones (maybe precious stones) that were placed in the Jewish high priest's "breastplate of judgement"; sometimes referred to as the "breastplate of decision". Within that breastplate were also the names of the 12 tribes of Israel, so it appears that there might be a connection there, where the high priest used these stones to determine God's Will in certain situations concerning Israel.

How God chose to guide the priest to a correct judgement/decision is not told us: whether by the appearance of Light (Urim) or Perfections or declaration of Truth (Thummim). In 1 Samuel 28:6 which you referred to, we read of King Saul making enquiry of the LORD, but the LORD did not speak to him, whether by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by the prophets. This then seems to be some of the ways that God revealed His Word to His people, and these stones, Urim & Thummin, were used by the High Priest to learn the answer from God for the people.

Hi Stu. I see that many here have responded to you out of concern for you. I also realize that the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church can be very strong & indeed become a part of one's whole belief system & directing of life's affairs. What these folk here have shared is Truth, as given from the Bible, God's Word to us, and not according to Church teaching & dogma. The fact that the Papacy have permitted Catholics to read the Bible for themselves, when once upon a time it was forbidden, is a wonderful permission where Catholics (even those among my acquaintances) are now reading & asking questions; you may be one also wanting to seek Truth. The Church, from history, whether Catholic, Protestant, or whatever, has never been the sole repository of Truth - only the Bible contains it & we need to put aside if possible, what we've been taught & listen to what God's Word has to say.

Enough has been written to you on Mary's spiritual condition: that she was a normal human being, coming to Earth the normal way, & attaining the same sinful condition that we all have sadly received. You have mentioned the name, the Virgin Mary, & equating that title to her 'sinlessness', & why should she be so referred to as Virgin Mary, if she wasn't pure? Apart from what others have shared, I also understand this title given (even as far back as Isaiah 7:14), refers to the fact that Mary, Joseph, those acquainted with her family & those who would come to trust in Jesus as the Messiah, would know that it was God alone Who did this miraculous work of impregnating Mary with His Holy Seed. There were many virgin women in Israel at that time, & all had to have sexual relations with their husbands to conceive. But Mary was an exception: her Seed came directly from God, untainted with a sin nature, & she would be used as the means to fulfil prophecy & bring a Man, fully Divine, into the World. Hence, I see that the title, Virgin Mary, applying to this fact: that this was a miracle from God.

That was enlightening brother Jesse & many thanks for that clarification. I did look up Matthew 24:13 in Strong's Concordance & noted that if 'hupomeno' was the word used, then 'to wait, stay behind, endure' would be accurate. But in context & in how the Greek is grammatically expressed, then 'hypomeinas', (from 'hupomeno'), is the word used & implied, which of course as you wrote is, 'having endured' (or, 'the one who has endured').

And this 'difference' might appear to be minor to most unless one understands its ramifications. The former (hupomeno) implies that salvation cannot be guaranteed now unless the Christian works hard at it to maintain his endurance & thus receiving salvation at the end; whereas the latter (hypomeinas) shows that the Christian who has received salvation will/must endure to the end - no exceptions, no allowances made. That any turning back from God's Promises, denial of Christ or the faith, even succumbing to threats to life or family, only shows that a mighty spiritual change & the ministering Holy Spirit within has never been evident in the person's life.

I think that this would be an extremely sad scenario, when one's life is placed ahead of the Lord's Love & Mercy - when self-preservation is counted more important than self-sacrifice for the Love of God. And so we see many examples of Matthew 24:13, both today & especially of yesteryear, of the reformers who withstood the onslaught of popery against them & went to the stake, willingly accepting the fagots lit about them, remaining resolute in faith & calling on God for strength. These have endured because of the Spirit's enabling within & not on human resolve & strength for victory, which only guarantees failure - for some have denied their Lord. Their joyful deaths proved their salvation & outworking of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

Thank you Sister. We had a great time away but always good to get back home & into a regular routine again.

Jimbob,

I do own a Strongs Concordance, but I do not have access to it right now. It has been quite a while since I have used a concordance. Ever since I have learned to read and understand Greek (still learning), I have not relied on my concordance as much as I used to. My Greek NT (Textus Receptus) which I read from does not have the Strongs numbers. Sometimes I prefer to sit and read the Greek text over my English bible. For me, it brings out much more meaning as to what the English text is actually saying. Plus, I enjoy reading the Greek text as much as I can in order to become more fluent at it. I appreciate that you enjoy Greek and sharing Greek words. Other than looking words up in a concordance, if you don't mind me asking, what is your background in Greek, particularly with Greek sentence structure and how each word fits according to the way it is presented in the Greek? I believe the word you are speaking of is HUPOMENO? I mentioned in my post that this was an Aorist Participle, which is how I came to my understanding of how the word was being used. I can explain Aorist Participles if that helps.

Blessings to you also!

Dear all brethen and new born in Jesus Christ. As long as the Lord is good, He will bring us home. It's because there's still someone who's yet to be saved that He hasn't put everything in order yet.

Who among us would throw away the only One in this world who is really good with us.

Of course, humans can be Kind, but not good. Jesus says so, no man is good. It is Only 1 that is good and it is God Himself.

1 Timoty 1 chapter and the last v. Says Paul that he gave them to satan, that they might learn and incite mockery.

Paul did not condemn them, but gave grace space so that they might learn!

That's exactly what we need to do.

Stay strong in the word of God. And do what ever He says u to do. Then u will se that God is good to u and yours, and much more.

He IS, happy Easter, love u all in Christ.

STU,

No, the Bible does not say that Mary was without sin. Romans 3:23 says that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. This means that every human being except the Son of God made man (Jesus) never sinned.

Welcome back Chris.

Dear STU

I agree that the Bible says that Mary was a virgin. In being a virgin and becoming pregnant by the Holy

Spirit, Jesus was then born of a virgin, as God prophesied through Isaiah (Is. 7:14)

STU, I stand by what I wrote to you. The Bible never says that Mary was without sin. It says that only Jesus is without sin. He alone is perfectly holy. All men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God ( Romans 3:23).

So, Mary was saved by the sacrifice of Jesus like every Christian. But, because of God's sovereign selection of her to be the mother of Jesus, she indeed, is blessed of all women.

Even so, the Bible says that every knee will bend and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God (Phil.2:10)

But the Bible nowhere says that every knee will bow to Mary.

So, STU, I challenge you to read the four gospels and the epistles to see

-whether it says that Mary was sinless or not,

-whether it says that we should bend our knee to her or not,



-whether we are asked to pray to her or not, whether she is called our mediatrix (having the power to be our mediator between God and man) or if Jesus is the one Mediator between God and man ( 1Tim. 2:5),

-whether she is man's co-redemptrix with Jesus or if Jesus is the only acceptable sacrifice for our sins ( Heb 7:27; 9:14)

-whether she was translated to heaven without dying

After you have read all of the New Testament to find the answers to these points, then you can get back to us and give us Scripture citations that support any of the Catholic beliefs about Mary.

Hello Stu,

You wrote:

"Why would the Bible call Mary the mother of God " The Virgin Mary" if she was a sinner and besides Jesus is free from sin so God his Father would not have chosen a sinner to give birth to a sinless Jesus."

Instead of taking scripture at face value like Psalm 51:5 it seems you prefer to believe your own assumptions. I suspect that you already know that fornication/adultery is sin, and that not all sin is fornication or adultery. So, its very possible for a sinner to a virgin- that describes most teenagers, of which Mary was one. Do you believe its possible for a sinner to not to a certain sin like fornication/adultery? If so then you would agree that a sinful person can be a virgin like Mary.

Now, for the second part of what you assumed:

"Jesus is free from sin so God his Father would not have chosen a sinner to give birth to a sinless Jesus."

How could you know what God the Father's thought process was? Do you have a scripture that says what you just said that He "would not have" chosen a sinner?

There is no scripture saying that. But there's plenty of scripture supporting the opposite.

Paul - killed Christians and had a "thorn" in his side, but chosen to spread the gospel and write much of the Bible.

Moses - murdered a guy and possibly a speech impediment, but chosen anyway by God.

David - had a guy killed so he could have an affair with his wife- pretty sick sinful stuff, but God used him anyway.

Remember how Jesus paid extra attention to the vile and "worst" sinners, like the prostitute, and tax collector, thief, lepers, etc.

It seems that God actually takes a liking to people who are imperfect sinners.

Have you ever read this verse?

"And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." 2 Corinthians 12:9 KJV

Send prayers for where Sister Gianna is, it's on tornado watch and is stormy, and someone got injured too.

Hello Jesse. If you don't mind I've got something to add to your comment. I don't see where you got your understanding of the meaning of the word (endure) as "but the one who has endured" Jesse in ( Mt. 24:13) from your comment. I see the word (endure) in the Strongs Concordance as #5278 in Greek, it means to stay under, (behind) i.e. remain, to undergo, i.e. bear (trials) have fortitude, persevere, abide, (take) patient (-ly) suffer, tarry behind. Also it would seem at least in part, the things this verse is saying one must endure unto the end are the things spoken of just before this verse in ( Mt. 24:9-12) The word (saved) is #4982: it means "safe" to save, i.e. deliver or protect, heal, preserve, be (make) whole. The word (saved) in this verse has the same meaning as the word (saved) in ( Rom. 5:9) where it says "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be (saved) from wrath through him". We shall be (saved) or (delivered) from wrath through Him. This is just what I see from these verses anyway. Thank you Jesse for the post. God Bless.

Do you think that being a virgin means that you are sinless ? Do you think that sexual intercourse in a sin ? If so , can you please explain why you think these things , thankyou .

Psalm 91 Verse 11 of this Psalm was quoted in Matthew 4:6; which is indicative of the promises which the Son of God no doubt had being part of the eternal Godhead with the angels He created for eternal worship in heavenly places.

Looking at the preceding verses; we see promises for those who are God's children to be hidden (compare with Colossians 3:3); and we shouldn't ignore the following statement in verse 2 about those who TRUST God. We also see promises which apply in general to God's covenant people such as Deuteronomy 7:15; and fulfilled by Christ in verses such as Isaiah 53:5. Ultimately; however these promises will be fulfilled in the Millennial Kingdom as may be indicated in verse 7; and in the Tribulation for those dweiling in heaven as indicated from verse 9.

Luke 10:19 shows how Christ fulfills certain promises in freedom from Satan's grip which is similar to what it states in Psalm 91:13.

The remainder of the Psalm could indicate Christ's reward as well as our own during the Millennial period as well. There will also be natural life expectancies (see Isaiah 65:22) that are vastly extended at that time.

As we look at things today; of course we still live with all of creation groaning as it were; such as indicated in Romans 8:22. Satan himself will get his due reward; ending once and for all his usurper role as a pseudo ruler; who ultimately fulfills God's prophetic plan; as it did when he entered Judas Iscariot so that all things could be fulfilled and Christ would die for our atonement ( Heb. 9:28; also read Isaiah 53 in its entirety). We are all in perishable bodies for a brief time; but we certainly can find ways to shorten our lives due to sin adding to our miseries. For now; pestilences and other things can be held back or mitigated; but that will not be helpful during the Tribulation. At that time the 144,000 will be supernaturally protected before God brings judgments upon the earth. May we live soberly in the fear of God

Jesus is without sin how could His mother be with sin if she is called the Virgin Mary.

You are picking and choosing what you believe and not what is written in the Holy Bible. It states that Mary was a Virgin, which is why she was called Blessed; every knee will bend. You have an opinion and that is not the truth.

STU I hear ya...Thats y Jesus was born for us sinners....He is our savior....Jesus is exactly what we sinners need...That New Heart and New spirit...A new innerman...The H.G....Thats y he said if i be lifted up i will draw all men unto me...And that great Promise was that Christ wd be multiplied as the stars of heaven...Thats y the sower of that good seed wants to sow his precious seed in our hearts..That we might birth a baby Christ the H.G..That Child of Promise...That we might be bornagain of his incorruptible seed which is that living word....Making humanity incorruptible..Resulting in an Israel of God which are spirits that are gonna be born in us sinners via his seed....Thats y he has to know us...Thats y they refer to Jesus as the bridegroom he wants to sow his seed in our hearts...Thus there is a baby christ in our future...Which is the H.G. That Child of Promise....And in Rev 12 :10 the Kingdom comes after the woman births the manchild which is the H.G the Kingdom...The Kingdom of God is not in meat or drink but in joy and peace in the H.G. Romans 14:17...Thats y Jesus was saying unless you receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there in...The reason we refer to the H.G. as the Promise is B/C the H.G. is the multiplication of JESUS IN US SINNERS VIA HIS PRECIOUS SEED the word....That was the great Promise that Christ wd be multiplied as the stars of heaven in us sinners via his seed ....God so loved the world implying humanity...And God was so passionate about this Promise of multiplication that he swore by his very self....in Hebrews 6:13...Thats y Jesus was saying to whom the word came it made them Gods...And the scripture cannot be broken...Thus we will be married to God making us 1 with God.... Isaiah 62:5...As a young man marries a virgin so shall thy God rejoice over you...ok Gbu