All Discussion PAGE 477

Salvation by man, or salvation by God?

(Part 4):

We also know from Scripture that no one can keep himself saved. John teaches, in 1 John 5:18 (as recorded in the oldest Greek manuscripts), "We know that everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin; but the one who has been born from God, God is keeping him and the evil one does not touch him."

John also states in John 10:27-29, "My sheep hear my voice and I know them; and they follow me. And I give to them eternal life; and they will never perish forever and not anyone will seize them from out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to seize them from out of the hand of my Father."

Jude states in his doxology in verse 24, "But to the one being able to keep you without stumbling and to set you before His glory blameless in exultation."

Paul in his writings emphasized the keeping power of God's Spirit in Ephesians 1:13-14: "In whom also after having heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also, after having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance, for redemption of the possession, for the praise of His glory."

He states again in Ephesians 4:30, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Probably one of the most powerful Scriptures of God's keeping power is Romans 8:38-39: "For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor powers, nor any thing which has come, nor things coming, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The only way a person can be saved is by a spiritual birth from God; and the only way a person can keep his salvation is through the keeping power of God.

Salvation by man, or salvation by God?

(Part 3):

Paul writes on the same subject, in Galatians 5:17, "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are opposing to one another; in order that you should not do what you want." These scriptures show that believers cannot be taken away from Christ by the flesh, because the Spirit of God is dwelling within to prevent that from happening.

Jesus Himself said, as recorded in John 6:37, "All that the Father gives to me will come to me; and the one coming to me I will never cast out." He goes on to say, in John 6:39, "And this is the will of the Father who has sent me, in order that of all which he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up in the last day."

Also, in His prayer to the Father, as recorded in John 17:11-12, Jesus said, "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep through your own name those whom you have given to me, in order that they may be one, as we are. When I was with them in the world, I was keeping them in your name; the ones who you have given to me I kept, and none of them perished, except the son of perdition; in order that the Scripture might be fulfilled."

I emphasize the permanency of salvation because the bible teaches that God is the one who saves, and He does so from out of His mercy. According to Paul, in Ephesians 2:8, grace, faith, and salvation are gifted from God. John says, in John 1:13, believers "were born, not from blood, nor from the will of the flesh, nor from the will of man, but from God." Therefore, according to Scripture, a human being cannot save him/herself.

Salvation by man, or salvation by God?

(Part 2):

In the early Church, the requirement for salvation was the presence of God's Spirit dwelling within a person. Paul instructed, in Romans 8:9, "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this one is not of Him." In Romans 8:14, he wrote, "For as many as are being led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God."

And again, in Romans 8:16, he instructs that "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God." Also, in 2 Corinthians 13:5, Paul challenged the church at Corinth: "Examine yourselves, if you are in the faith; prove your own selves, or do you not know your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you, except you are reprobates?"

John, writing in 1 John 3:24 supported this same understanding: "And in this we know that He abides in us, from the Spirit whom He has given to us." He repeats this same truth, although worded somewhat differently, in 1 John 4:13, "In this we know that we dwell in Him, and He in us, because He has given to us of His Spirit."

From the preceding scriptures, we see that salvation happens only when God's Spirit enters and remains in a person's spirit, thereby causing spiritual birth. Nothing in the Bible teaches that salvation is accomplished by the repetition of the Sinner's Prayer or through the performance of any other kind of human formula.

In addition to teaching that God is the sole source of salvation, the Bible also teaches that every saved person is kept by the power of God. Peter writes, in 1 Peter 1:5, that believers are, "The ones who are being kept in the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

Salvation by man, or salvation by God?

(Part 1):

Over the last 40 years or so, emphasis on the ability to save has been shifted from God to man. As a result, the permanency of salvation has been called into question, because this approach to salvation emphasizes that believing certain truths can save a person and then that same person can subsequently lose his/her salvation by disbelieving those same truths.



However, the bible clearly teaches that salvation is based solely on God's Spirit coming into the spirit of a human being; and in so doing, causing that person to become a new creation, a new person. A person's experience of regeneration by the Holy Spirit is an act of God, not of man.

Biblically, the salvation process begins with God the Father. Jesus said, in John 6:44, "No one is able to come to me, unless the Father who has sent me should draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day." In John 3:3, Jesus says, "Unless anyone should be born from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God."

Consequently, if the Father does not draw a person to Christ, that person cannot be saved. It is only after the Father has drawn someone to Christ, that the Spirit of Christ enters into the spirit of that person and a spiritual birth takes place.

These same truths are taught by the Apostles.

Paul, in Titus 3:5 wrote, "Not out of works in righteousness which we did, but according to His mercy He saved us, through washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit."

Peter said, in 1 Peter 1:3, "Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the One who according to his great mercy has regenerated us again into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."

This is a question for those that side on the pre-tribulation rapture point of view. I am honestly asking this question, probably out of concern more than anything. What would it take, how far into the tribulation would you say the pre-tribulation rapture wasn't going to happen? Would it take: ( Mark 13)

12Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

Or

14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Or

The Mark of the Beast being implemented?

Please think on these things, because our time is short. At the least, have a marker to when you'll be willing to accept things aren't taking place like you thought, and prepare your heart and mind for what is to come. In Christ, God Bless

Hello S. Spencer;

I am still going through what you have posted. I just have one comment for this post. In 2 Peter 3:11 the question is what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness? This question is qualifed by the phrase "Seeing then that all things shall be dissolved" and the phrase after (vs. 12) "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat."

Verse 13 says "Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

So I am not sure why you answered the question of verse 11 with "NO!"

To me it is asking us to consider how we should think and live our lives knowing that everything we now know that exists will be destroyed in the day of the the coming of Jesus. We are not to value the things of this world as much as we are to value the things of God and what our inheritance is when Jesus returns for us. Verse 14 says "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found in Him in peace, without spot, and blameless."

So Peter is wanting us to be mentally and spiritually prepared for the coming of the Lord knowing His promises and staying the course of faith in Him.

But anyway, why did you say "NO!" it just seems like an out of place answer to the question posed.

I agree. 2 Peter Chapter 2

20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Like you've shown, Adam, there are many verses that warn a Christian to not fall away. It is possible, and it will be worse on them that have known the truth and turned from it, than to have never known it at all.

God Bless

Part 2

Jesus told His 12 at the last supper, Matt. 26:29 Mark. 14:25, He would not drink of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new in my Father's kingdom, in the kingdom of God. This can only be either when Jesus sets the kingdom up for the 1000 years, or when all is made new, a new earth and a new heaven, but it would be on earth not in heaven.

If we use fine linen, clean and white to identify the Church as the armies coming out of heaven we see in scripture many times the angels appear in white, white linen, and pure and white linen, Matt. 28:3 John 20:12 Acts 1:10 Rev. 16:6 and many more, and the bride in Rev. 19:8 the fine linen is the righteousness of saints, is this just the righteousness of the Church or all the saints?

The earth is round and the gathering of the elect/saints will come from all over as a delegation meeting Jesus in the air as He is coming down to set up the kingdom as we see in Matt. 24:31. The armies in heaven are angels coming with Jesus the gathering will happen on the way down.

I know I probably did not touch on all, there are so many parts. I hope this shows some of my understanding, but I still do not see where anyone is taken to heaven.

Thanks for your reply, if we inspire each other in love to study it is good.

God bless,

RLW

Hey Jinbob,

Part 1

I do not mind one bit, I feel we are all here for each other. Revelation is to me hard, I feel some things have not been revealed and the events that were shown to John are not written in chronological order. Chapter 15 starts with a sign in heaven of the seven angels having the last plagues filled with the wrath of God.

My understanding is this is after the seven trumpets and with Matt. 24:31 1 Thess. 4:16 1 Cor. 15:52 or Rev. 11:15 and Rev. 19:11-15 shows Jesus returns on the last trump so Jesus is on the earth at this time with the ones in the first resurrection. I do not know of any scripture that says Jesus goes back up to heaven after He comes down to reign as King.

So, in Rev. 15:2 where and when is this vision John is seeing? Does Rev. 15:2-3 say this group is the Church or is this event the same event we see in Rev. 20:4 after the battle and Satan is locked up? Rev. 15:4 it is talking about all nations will come and worship the Lord. Is this not during the Millenium reign as in Jeremiah 3:17 Zechariah 8:21-22 Isaiah 2:3-4 and more?

Rev. 19:7-9 the marriage of the Lamb is come, does not mean at that moment it means all that must be fulfilled for it to happen has been fulfilled, the wife has made herself ready. So when will the marriage and the marriage supper happen? In Rev.19:9 it says "Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb." Is this only the Church? How are we to understand Rev. 21:9-27?

See Part 2

send prayers for Sister Gianna, she could be going through a hard time right now.

Thank you Hammer,

These verses are good to know and apply to our lives in Christ, too.

Asking for strong protection and breakthrough for us and all in need. Lord Jesus please fight our battles. Thank you.

Please read the bible asking the Lord to guide you. The church of latter day saints is not a biblical church.

Lord Jesus please richly bless, protect and guide them. Please help them in accordance with your perfect will Father. Thank you and praise you. In your holy name I pray. Amen.

Asking for strong protection and breakthrough for us and all in need. Lord Jesus please fight our battles. Thank you.

Cindy thank you and I believe that is what I have to do in this situation

Thank you well put and it is harder cause it's a family member . I know that this is something I can move on from but the resentment will still be there. That sister is now living with me because she has no place to live. It is at time unbearable for me but God helps me through it. We always fall out about money which is the root of all evil. She works and I don't at this time but I was blessed with some money. So she always have her hand out but she has a job . I can be stressful at times

Adam I hear what you are saying....Very interesting...But satan is gonna sow a Tare in with the good seed the wheat...making us do all kinds of evil things..That y Paul was saying when i wd do good good evil is present with me....Paul was taken hostage by satan and his TARES...Even in the natural sometimes a soldier is taken hostage and the enemy makes him say all kinds of things publicly to his home country...He is brain washed, Thats y Paul was saying if i do something I do not consent unto its not I that does it but sin that dwells in my members...Oh wretched man that i am....Roman 7:16...We are involved in a war with satan....This war is raging in our minds thus war in heaven The tares against the wheat...With my MIND i serve the law of God but with my flesh the Tare the law of sin... Romans 7 :25 kjv..Paul was involved in a warfare...But Paul cd not fallaway simply b/c the Wheat is the H.G....Just b/c a soldier makes all kinds of derogatory remarks about his home country does not make him a traitor....Thats us, the Tares tries to take our MINDS but nothin can separate from the love of God.

...... Romans 8: 38 ...For i am persuaded that nothin can separate us from the love of God...Not life nor death nor principalities nor powers nor things present nor things to come nor heights nor depth nor any creature shall be able to separate us from the love of God....But we must remain a good soldier and endure to the end...Even tho satan is gonna try very hard with his Tares to make us fallaway...As jesus said my father that gave them me is Greater then all and no man can pluck them out of my Fathers hands....Any way Adam this is my slant on falling away....Hope it helps ya a bit...Gbu Adam

Other verses referencing the "love of God". Eph. 3:19 "And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God". John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him". John 15:10 "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love". 1 John 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous".

Please remember me and my family today in your prayers remember my daughter and her husband Jessica and Adam

Dear CSmith925, I was bullied by two girls in high school, and as an adult by a whole group of people who started a Facebook group just to smear me. What I did in both cases--mostly--was ignore them. I didn't know what else to do. I found out pretty quickly with the second time that striking back only fed their wickedness. Never cease to pray for them and to pray that they will leave you alone. If at all possible, get yourself away from them by changing schools, transferring to another job location or even changing jobs, moving to another area, whatever it takes. I know it isn't fair, but neither is life and remember that God will deal with these bullies. If you are in fear of your life, go to the police and get them to issue restraining orders. I wish that I had more advice, but I don't and have never met anyone who has ever been able to stop these evil people in their tracks.

Amen Hallelujah! Thank you for the good work you have done here.

My church thinks so well that we should be pulled away.

I see it like you and others here on the web. And bothered, not so that it gets on my nerves, but I pray that one day I can have the word. And can speak freely with the wisdom of the Holy Spirit and anointed by Jesus Christ. We must learn to use the spiritual sword, Amen.

They go astray all those who say this. Many fall asleep in this nighttime song, unfortunately.

Praising God for He gives us clarity and understanding and the right words! Thank you again dear brother in Christ I love you and everyone. We outside Israel are His buds instilled into the Tree and which the Lord Himself has grown. Amen

John 7 chapter.

Thanks Brother Jesse.

God bless you.

Hi Ronald.

Thanks for the reply.

I will be reaching out to you hopefully sometime today after work.

God bless.

Hi Jimbob.

Thanks for the reply,

I will give my response hopefully this evening sometime after work.

God bless.

That's between her and God. Leave her for Him to deal with. He will.

Latonyad,

Very unique name.

The difficulty is hardest when it's family members, why? Mainly knowing them in a closer way than someone outside the family. Family members for the most part are loved 1st than trusted second.

Yet for persons outside the family it tends to start with trust than love. That's a foundation which requires time investment, a family member not as much so.

Understand these are only basics "rules" and there of course much more but for space this is the short version.

What I tell young people and older as well, to have a relationship outside the family it starts with "trust" not love. Evidence of that is when a couple separate what's mostly, said is " I trusted you", trust 1st always. Love might take time but remember it's for life.

This works both with family and friends, since self is who we are, the expressions of character or behaviors are what gives us the measure of trust. We get disappointed in the results which were not expected, again from both groups.

And it's very difficult with family to forgive.

Overlook, or ignore the treatment received from them.

I left so much out, but I hope the "just" passes through.

In our Bible it reminds us to be kind to those who hurt us, and pray for those who use us.

But you know telling someone that at times is not much help, with what we are feeling inside our heart/soul. So let's change something here, let's tell ourselves since I don't fight flesh and blood, but a spirit persay. It's for me to be stronger, what!! Yes stronger, when we are believers in Jesus our Lord we decided to follow and obey. And grow in a relationship, so we decided to grow deeper in a relationship with Christ. Look to the Lord for direction and at the same time pray for your sister. BLESS her. Though she uses you, or it feels like it.

Use this as a spiritual race track, or bar bells. It's a race, we have hard times. Change your thoughts and thinking by remembering, the "they don't know, in your hands My Spirit.

D

Ronald Whittemore I hope you don't mind if I try to answer this question. You asked "Is there any verse in the Bible that says at any time we go to heaven"? I would say ( Rev 15:2) is showing us a picture of the church, or elect in heaven after they had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his mark. Also in ( Rev 19:7-9) the marriage of the Lamb is come, wouldn't this be the wedding supper for the bride of Christ, the church? which would have to take place (after the rapture) of the church. We see that the bride, or church comes back with Christ (FROM HEAVEN) in ( Rev 19:14) This verse tells us the armies that followed Him upon white horses are clothed in ((fine linen, white and clean)). Now we look back to the wife at the marriage supper in ( Rev 19:8) This verse tells us the wife is arrayed in ((fine linen, clean and white)). So the bride, the church are a part of the armies in heaven that follow Him to the earth on white horses. These verses don't say the words we go to heaven, but they sound like we do go to heaven. Blessings.

I'd like to share some verses I've been noticing lately during my readings in regards to once saved always saved or not. Some verses appear to support it so I see why people believe this, but is that really what it means?

John 10:28 - neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

What about followers who voluntarily left His hand?

Luke 15:4-7 - Jesus gives the parable of the lost sheep. But the sheep is still a follower. If the sheep denounced its Shepherd and left the herd to become a wolf, Jesus doesn't say He goes to rescue wolves but just the sheep in His flock. Verse 7 also adds a condition- "if" the sheep repents. People often skip that part. Maybe it's uncomfortable for some to humble themselves to genuinely repent and ask for forgiveness to God. I think this is what Jesus expects. It doesn't say the Christian can follow the world, sin as much as he wants, abort babies, use profanity, cheat, lie, steal, kill, abuse the body with drugs, and fill with lust, and not repent, not follow Jesus and be 100% fine. I see no verse saying that is all is fine if done intentionally. Seems like doing that is like spitting in Jesus's face and mocking what He did for us.

Heb 6:1 talks about repentance. Heb 6:6 says those who have "fallen away" can be brought back through repentance. If it wasn't possible for Christians to fall away then why does the Bible say that Christians can fall away? It says its a disgrace, like crucifying Jesus all over again.

Heb 5:13 says that some Christians are still living on milk like an infant and still not pursuing righteousness. Some in this forum have claimed that effort to be righteous is "bad" and apparently doing evil is good? That of course is from satan.

Heb 5:2 talks about Christians who have gone astray or "out of the way" of the path. If it were not possible to veer off the path of following Jesus then why does the Bible warn us not to do that?

Heb 4:1 warns Christians to not fall short of God's "rest".

Heb 3:19

Hello Spencer. If you don't mind I've got a few things to add to this. ( Rev 19:7-9) Is the marriage supper of the Lamb, this has to be taking place (after) the rapture of the church. Right? (The ((coming of the Lord)) or ((coming in the clouds)) is the (rapture) of the church, its called the (day of the Lord) for non-believers as it will come as a thief in the night to them. Those non-believers will be on the earth facing the wrath of God while those raptured are at ( Rev 19:7-9) Now in ( Rev 19:11-16) This is when Jesus Christ returns to the earth (with His church) to treadeth (end) the winepress and fierceness and wrath of Almighty God, and rule the nations with a rod of iron in ( Rev 19:15) The church will come back with Him. ( Rev 19:8) has the wife arrayed in fine linen, clean and white. ( Rev 19:14) Tells us the armies (which were in heaven) that followed Him upon white horses were clothed in fine linen, white and clean. The wicked who are left on the earth are not all destroyed, but they will go through the wrath of God in ( Rev 16) When Jesus returns to the earth on a white horse (with the church who will reign with Him) the beast has gathered together an army, and kings of the earth to fight against Jesus in ( Rev 19:19-21) There will be a battle, Jesus cast the beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire. Now ( Rev 20) Starts with Satan being cast into the bottomless pit for a thousand years. Who asked about two groups in ( Rev 20:8-9) A look at ( Rev 20:7) tells us Satan is loosed out of his prison and he goes out to deceive the nations. Those who compassed the camp of the saints are those that Satan deceived in ( Rev 20:8) The saints would be those who are reigning with Christ for the 1000 years. ( Rev 20:8-10) This is the battle of Gog and Magog which ends the Millennial reign on the earth. ( Rev 20:11-15) Is the great white throne judgment where the dead (spiritually dead) are judged. After this its either the lake of fire or Eternity with the LORD. Blessings

Hey S Spencer,

Just a little there are many parts, and this subject is hard, what we are looking for when the end comes only will affect those who are living when it starts, if it is today, are we ready? We should study it with 1 Cor. 8:2 in mind. Jesus's return is after, Satan is cast down, the beast, the false prophet, with his 3.5 years given him Rev. 13:5.

I think most agree it is the gathering together of the elect, saints, chosen and faithful, who will be in the first resurrection, whether we use Matt. 24:29-31 Mark 13:24-27 1 Thess. 4:16-17 1 Cor. 15:51-53 or Rev. 11:15 and Rev. 19:11-15 it is the gathering together. Where is the destination?

Most will also agree we through Jesus will be saved from the wrath of God, Rom. 5:9 and we are not appointed to wrath 1 Thes. 5:9. Where do the elect go after the gathering and thinking that the white throne judgment is for just the lost, causes division? Are we gathered and taken to heaven, or do we come back down here on earth to reign with Jesus? This earth is round so we see in 1Thes. 4:14 to Jerusalem.

Jesus is coming to carry out the wrath and those in the first resurrection are to reign with Christ on earth, Rev. 20:1-4. We see Jesus brings the wrath, Rev. 19:11-21, also, it is pictured in Rev. 6:14-17, and Rev. 11:15-18, the seventh and last trump.

God has placed Jesus above all until the last enemy is under His feet and destroyed and that will be death, 1 Cor. 15:24-26 Rev. 20:13-14. In Zech. 14:4 When Jesus returns, He will stand on the Mount of Olives where He ascended. The meeting Him in the air is the delegation of saints gathered together to welcome our King back to this earth, and the camp, the gathering of the saints will be around Jerusalem, where He will reign from Rev. 20:9 not to go back from where He came.

After Jesus returns, we see the vials poured out in Rev. 16.

Is there any verse in the Bible that says at any time we go to heaven?

God bless,

RLW