All Discussion PAGE 513

Prayer needed for myself for now and the future, I been praying for a long time for difference changes in my life, I been believing and having faith that what I pray ask for will come to life, but I think the devil always gets in the way. I am 60 years of age self-employed with no saving, staying with my 87 years old ill mother (Ada Avant) who is on a fix income paying for high rent we really cannot afford. I often wonder if the lord takes my mother today where will I go what will I do, I do take care of my mother, but I'm looking at reality. Please pray that (GOD) will (BLESS) me with change in my life where I don't have to worry about anything in my life, please pray that (GOD) in (THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST) will (BLESS) me with nothing but ( MIRACLES&BLESSINGS) in (ALL AREAS THROUGHOUT) my (LIFE),SPIRITUAL,FAITH,HEALTH,FINANCE,PROTECTION THROUGHOUT AREAS OF LIFE PROBLEMS,ETC!!!. Thank you all for your prayers, as I pray for all.

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1 Peter 4:17: not to apostate congregations as you believe, but to God's Judgement on believers who are persuaded to pursue sin rather than righteousness. His Judgement by His Spirit can first come as a warning, an affliction, even death, so that the soul might be saved. If such a judgement on His Church is certain, what then is the certainty of judgement of those who reject Him & His Gospel?

Unlike you, I believe that the Church (of true believers) is still valid & functioning today. I see nothing in the Scriptures to ever indicate that they will or have ceased. All I can say, is that God's View of His Church is very different to some other's view of a deteriorated apostate people.

You'll find this in Proverbs 25:28, Sansee.

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David0920. No, I don't "believe that every individual in every Church is a true believer". What I shared on this, is that Christ's Church, that invisible organism if you will, comprises His children, blood-bought, Spirit-baptized, eternally secured. The Church you and I visibly see is a congregation of people that we believe loves the Lord & follows Him. Are all of them saved? Neither you nor I can know the hearts of people - but God does, for He knows all who are His. This then is the Church that I refer to. This is His Church - The House of God.

The Churches in Revelation chapters 2 & 3. I'm unsure what you're referring to by asking about them. Maybe, that they weren't perfect Christians as Jesus had some serious things to say to them. And so it was and is, no assembly of Christians, then & now, contains perfect people - the Church leaders are bound to follow the Word of God, stay true to Christ & build up God's people. If the Churches were deficient or in sin, they would be chastised, whether as a group or individuals & yes, their candlestick may be removed, their testimony & usefulness be nullified, unless they repent & return back onto the righteous path.

Of the Wheat & the Tares parable: we live in a world where both the children of the kingdom & the children of the wicked one dwell. At harvest-time, both the wheat & the tares among them will be reaped; the wheat shall be kept & the tares burned in eternal fire. This explanation of the parable (13:24-30) by Jesus only speaks about the end-time harvest; the scene is "of the world" (v38), not the Church. The tares in their early stages of growth resemble wheat (appearing as also righteous). But at harvest & the reaping, the difference is easily seen & the separation of the good & evil correctly assessed.

Blessings, humbly asking prayers , for Christa for protection, strength and health,. For Lilly for protection, strength and health, for Martin for protection, strength and health, for Jazmin for protection strength and health, for sister Melina for protection, health and strength, for Pablo for protection, health and strength.

This is such an encouraging verse in God's word! This world is oftentimes so discouraging and the work of the Lord can become quite heavy and feel as if there is no reward in it.

I am so thankful God reminds us here that our work for Him WILL be rewarded! He is surely a God that understands our infirmities and our struggles!

So thankful to be one of His chosen ones! Thankful that He knows ALL! Thank you, LORD, for loving us so kindly and reminding us that our labour is not in vain!

Hebrews

I went through the Book of Hebrews this morning. Twice in fact. It gave me great joy in confirming some of the things God has taught me regarding how we are to approach the Bible and that we must allow the WHOLE Bible to be its own interpreter.

It also saddened me in that those who would see this as a message supporting some future glory and salvation plan for National Israel are not following the Biblical principles for interpreting scripture and are missing the glorious truths God is teaching in this Book about the Nature of Salvation for those of every nation whom God has and continues saving as He builds His eternal Kingdom, both during the Old and New Testament times.

That Christ spoke in parables and that the Old Testament sacrifices and other ceremonial laws were types and figures of the Nature of Salvation itself.

That those sacrifices could never take away sins and were pointing to the work that Christ performed in securing the salvation for everyone whom He came to save.

That salvation is 100% the work of Christ alone. And that out works contribute nothing.

That it was a warning to the New Testament churches to heed the lessons of National Isreal.

That it is a warning to each one of us to examine ourselves to make our calling and election sure.

That God has only one salvation plan for every individual from every nation whom He is saving throughout time.

That we are to walk by faith and not by sight.

And that God's salvation plan will be completed when Christ returns next.

Thanks for that confirmation brother Jesse. One point that GiGi was referring to & I quote her, "You (i.e. me) have given what I discovered as to what the Greek says for that with the exception of the addition of the word (gone). I did not find that word in the Greek translation. Rather the word used in the translation is meant to mean: to arise from the midst; to reveal or become manifest, etc. but there is no mention of the subject of the phrase being gone or taken away." So the reference she makes is that the Scripture (and Greek) does not speak of the restrainer "being gone or taken away", rather "to arise from the midst; to reveal or be manifested".

Now in your comment here, I notice that you too have read that verse as "Taken out of the way, removed, or gone could all mean the same thing. The Textus Receptus reads HEOS EK MESOU GENETAI. The translation is "Until out of the midst he be gone." So, there must be some suggestion in the Greek that it should be read as you & I are reading it, when the Greek doesn't actually show that the restrainer, after revealing the man of sin, goes anywhere or is removed. This difference in the Greek & the English translation can be confusing, & I think it is a vital part of both understanding the verse & supporting the belief that it is God's Spirit referred to & whether He just arises from the midst, or reveals, or manifests, or whether He is removed from the scene. And if He is removed or taken away, where does it leave Christ's Church?

And then the reverse could be true if the Greek is read another way: 'if the restrainer only reveals & arises from the midst, it shows that the Holy Spirit will still be here/remains here, therefore assuring that the Church continues to be present during anti-Christ's rule & the rapture can only happen much later/through much tribulation'.

Thanks Jimbob. The narrative on the anti-Christ in The Revelation has received different interpretations - of which I'm not quite certain which one is best.

Using the Scriptures you've shared, I tend to understand it in this way:

a. Revelation chapter 12 is clearly referring to Satan & his dealings with Israel. I realize that some understand that the 'woman clothed with the sun' is the 'Church', but I don't share this view in light of the passage.

b. Revelation chapter 13. Unlike Satan (the dragon), a beast now arises from the sea. Because of the complex attributes of this beast, it can't represent a single person/entity. Rather, I interpret verse 1 as that of the satanic power that resided within the world's great powers (verse 1: seven heads, ten horns, ten crowns are explained in Revelation 17:8-14), and these exhibit the evil emanating from Satan, culminating in the anti-Christ.

c. Revelation 13:3: one of the beast's heads which was wounded to death & then healed, seems to be the last empire, of Rome, that is for now dead, but will one day revive in the person of the Anti-Christ. So my understanding that it isn't anti-Christ that is wounded & revived, but the Roman Empire, from which he arises. What form this empire takes one can only guess, with other nations in league with her.

d. Revelation 12:9: Satan is indeed "cast out into the earth with his angels", but Revelation 13:1 are the satanic empires of which anti-Christ will emerge ( Daniel 7:7,8 gives us view of this - particularly v8: "the little hornlike the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things").

e. Revelation 13:11: I attribute to the rising of the false prophet, exercising the power of the first beast, doing miracles, making & giving life to anti-Christ's image, killing the disobedient, & requiring the mark of anti-Christ upon all. Here is the unholy Trinity: Satan, the anti-Christ (the healed & restored head of the devilish empires that arose in history), & the false prophet.

Joesph,

When God is not answering our prayers there are a couple of things that might be going on. First, we are likely asking amiss, meaning we are asking outside of God's will. We are asking within our own will. James 4:3 says Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

God's ways are higher than our ways and God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts. We are finite and cannot see the entire picture but God can!

Secondly, we can hinder our prayer life with unconfessed sins. Psalms 66:18 says If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

Isaiah 59:2 says But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

These are two reasons that prayers are not answered...The first is in my opinion more often than the latter...

Another reason is...it is simply just not time yet! We always have to remember everything is in God's perfect timing! Not in our timing as I said previously, we cannot see the whole picture but God can!

So continue to pray and ask the Holy Ghost to lead you in your prayers or maybe just simply ask if your prayer is really within God's will.

God's unanswered prayers are sometimes His greatest blessings!

please remember me and my family in your prayers

Oh yes thankyou ! Very helpful , thanks again .

Where is the Proverb thst states He who does not rule his own spirit is like a city without walls

2 Thessalonians 2

Pt. 3

I am convinced that if I am alive when these two events occur stated in 2 Thessalonians before Jesus returns, then I want to be stronger in my faith and be willing to be persecuted and killed for my faith, as it is the intent of the Anti-Christ to "war against the saints." I want to endure to the end in faith. I want to use the time I would have during the time I am alive in the Tribulations to turn unbelievers to Jesus by presenting the Gospel and pointing our the deception of the Anti-Christ. If believers are removed pre-Trib. who will help those who are lost find about about Jesus? We should desire and pray to have the boldness and "whatever it cost me" attitude of Paul and the apostles to bring Jesus to the lost through trials, persecution and even death in order that some may be saved.

But back to this chapter. I will reiterate that the main topic of this section is the return of Christ, not the emergence of the Anti-Christ. If we keep our thought an that aspect of the context of this section we can come to a clearer knowledge of the truth of Paul's teaching and come to admit that it does not teach the Pre-Trib rapture of the church. Which I think is a terrible heresy birthed by Satan to deceive the church into error and complacency.

I am not meaning to offend anyone who holds to the pre-trib view. But i just do not see it in this section of Scripture, as many Pre-Tribbers believe. Please be open to consider that one's view may be dangerously wrong. I regularly check my beliefs against Scripture to see for sure if I am being true to Scripture. I may still be wrong on some things. I am humble enough to think that. I hope others will be humble enough to rethink their view of Pre-Trib rapture against Scripture as well.

I do believe that the church will go through the great tribulation.

2 Thessalonians 2

continued.

Rather than "until he be taken out of the way" So it seems that the return of Christ is being restrained until these two events occur. We are not old whom the "he" is, and so perhaps it is not for us to actually know. But I can say that it is not the church or the Holy Spirit being removed because the chapter says that the church will be gathered upon Christ's return after the son of perdition rises up.

Vs. 8

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming."

The return of the Lord is not to rapture the church here, but to destroy the son of perdition, the Wicked.

Vs. 9-10

"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

So, if the pre-trib rapture is a lie, then it is of Satan and heresy. Gal. 5-19-21 lists heresy among the many sinful actions that will keep one out of the Kingdom of God. This is very sobering to consider.

Vs. 11-12

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion. that they should believe a lie; that they all might be damned who believe not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

So God allows those who prefer a heresy to the revealed truth of the Word to be deluded unto damnation.

Because of what Jesus says about his coming in the Gospels of matt. Mk. Lk. and in John says the resurrection is on the "Last Day" I believe what is expressly spoken by our Lord. To believe the inferred teaching of the pre-trib reapture to me is standin on shaky ground, even serious error or heresy because the Scriptures do not actually saying anything outright to support this doctrine.

For me, I am understanding that believers WILL go through the Tribulation when the son of perdition becomes known end employs his plan....

Ok, Here is a stab at 2 Thessalonians 2

Been thinking on it all day.

In reading verses 1-4

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit. nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Here the topic of this chapter is said in the first verse: concerning the return of Jesus and the gathering of the saints to Him.

This is the emphasis of this chapter.

Verse 2 warns the Thessalonians to not be disturbed by those who say that Jesus return is imminent (at hand). This does speak against those who teach that Jesus could come anytime.

Vs. 3

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the Lord's return) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

Paul is saying that Jesus will not return for the saints until these two things occur, so this chapter is not speaking of a pre-trib rapture.

Vs.4-5

"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things."

So we are told to not be deceived by anyone who would say that Jesus returns prior to a great apostasy AND the son of perdition exalting himself in the place of God in the temple. Paul says that he already instructed these people concerning these aspects of Jesus' return.

Vs. 6-7

"And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be reveaked in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already workl only he who letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

Since the main topic of this chapter is the return of Christ. Perhaps these verses are speaking of what restrains the appearing of Jesus and His return. Sicne the Greek translated mean "until he is manifested or arises amidst, or is revealed

Do we go through the great tribulation? Eph.6:10-13 (10) Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. (11) Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. (12) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (13) Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. (Who are these verses telling to Put on the whole armour of God to stand against the wiles, (trickery) of the devil in the (evil day)? If the rapture were to take place before this evil day then theses verses would be telling non-believers, the disobedient ones who don't believe in Jesus and are about to face the wrath of God to Put on the whole armour of God to stand against the wiles of the devil? That makes no sense at all, does it? The evil day would more than likely be great tribulation. Acts.14:22 tell us "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God". (Do we want to believe what the Word of God tells us? It very clearly says we must through much (tribulation) enter into the kingdom of God!) The word (tribulation) is #2347; it means pressure, afflicted (-tion) anguish, burdened, persecution, trouble. Acts.14:22 told us to continue in the faith through what sounds like a really tough time period, almost like we are being tested? 1.Pet.1:7 That the trial of your faith being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be (tried) with fire, might be found unto praise, and honour, and glory at the appearing of Jesus Chrst. The word (tried) is #1381; it means ((to test)). We will be tested during great tribulation. The (appearing) of Jesus Christ is Mt.24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation.

The wrath of God is vengeance for the disobedient, non-believers in Jesus Christ! 1.Thes.5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. (Who is the "us" in this verse?) Jn.3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (So this verse tells us those who believe on the Son, (Jesus Christ) will have everlasting life. And those who don't believe on the Son, (Jesus Christ) the wrath of God abideth on him.) 1.Thes.1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which (delivered) us from (the wrath to come.) The word (delivered) is #4506; it means to rush or draw (for oneself) rescue. (So we are rescued from the wrath to come, to come means its not came yet. so we are taken away before the wrath of God is poured out. Remember believers on the Son have everlasting life, non-believers will have the wrath of God abideth on them. The word (wrath) is #3709; it means violent passion, or [justifiable] abhorrence, punishment, anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath. (Gods wrath is violent passion, punishment, anger, vengeance for their disobedience and them not believing in the Son) Rom.5:8-9 tells us we are saved from wrath through him. Col.3:6 For which things sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience. Eph.5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words; for because of these things cometh the wrath of God on the children of disobedience. The word (disobedience) is #543; it means disbelief, unbelief. When will this wrath come? Rev.11:15-19 The seventh trumpet, (the last trump) v.18 says "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shoudest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shoudest destroy them which destroy the earth".

Brother Chris,

Since GiGi was seeking help with the Greek specifically from you or Giannis, I chose to remain out of this discussion. I did see your mention of myself and brother Giannis (and by the way, thank you for trusting in my knowledge of the Greek). That is encouraging.

I was hoping that brother Giannis would have taken this one. He is far more advanced in the Greek than I am. However, I have not seen him on here recently, so I will take a shot at this and hopefully he can come on and add to what I am sharing, tell me I'm out in left field, or whatever he might want to add.

The King James says "until he be taken out of the way." Taken out of the way, removed, or gone could all mean the same thing. The Textus Receptus reads HEOS EK MESOU GENETAI. The translation is "Until out of the midst he be gone."

Now, if I may share my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:7.

For the mystery of iniquity is already working: That's in Paul's day.



And right now, whether the person is alive or not, we have the one world system taking shape, and then he'll step right in to the situation.



Only he who now letteth will let, and that's the nice Old English language. It's the same word hinders, or restrains.



He says, and he who is restraining, will continue to restrain until it's time for the antichrist to be revealed, until he be taken, that is, this restrainer be taken out of the way.



There is much speculation as to what is the restraining force. I believe it's God.



Some people believe it's the Spirit of God in the church, that at the rapture when we're removed from the earth, that God's Spirit in the form of His people is gone.



That is true. But as we study through the Revelation, we find out that it's the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit himself. Whether it's in His people or not in His people, it is the Holy Spirit. God's Spirit will remove the hold, or restraining on the man of sin, and he will be revealed.

Blessings in Christ Jesus!

Mel8,

Matthew 17:12 says, but I say unto you, that Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they willed. Likewise shall they do to the Son of man, He shall suffer these things.



So Jesus said, indeed Elijah shall come first and restore all things, and that Elijah is come already. Very confusing, and that doesn't answer any questions. He will come and he has come. I'm sure the disciples are going Huh?



In John 1:21, the religious leaders sent delegates out to John's baptism and they asked him who are you? John says I'm not the Christ. In Verse 21, they said are you Elijah? And he said, no.



In Matthew 11:14, we see that John sent his disciples to ask Jesus a question, are you the Messiah or do we look for another?



And after His disciples left, He told the crowd that if you can receive it, John the Baptist is Elijah which was to come. What a lot of confusion here!



The key is found in Luke 1:17 when the angel Gabriel was speaking to Zacharias and he said that when John comes, he will come in the spirit and power of Elijah.



So he will not be Elijah the person, but he will have the same spirit and the same ministry as Elijah. Now what that means is that Elijah has come, but he as a person will come in the future.



And many, including myself, hold that in the book of Revelation, one of the two witnesses that witness in Jerusalem during the tribulation is Elijah coming to introduce the coming of Christ.



Both he and the other witness perform the same miracles and signs as Moses and Elijah did. But Elijah the person will come first.



That's why every year at the Passover meal, a Jewish family will leave an empty chair at the Passover table. It's because they believe that Passover time is when Elijah is going to come and announce the second coming of Christ. So they leave a chair vacant for him.

Very interesting how Jewish customs line up with things we study in scripture!

I hope this helps!

So again Chris,

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

What is the "house of God" in this verse? Is it not a reference to the churches and congregations which have gone apostate.

The "house of God" during the church age are the churches and congregations that God had established as the corporate representation of His Kingdom in this world in which reside both wheat and tares.

Just as National Israel was the corporate representation of God's Kingdom from Abraham until the Cross which included both those saved and unsaved. And upon which God's judgment came, again and again, because of their unbelief.

How am I understanding this verse incorrectly?

So Chris,

Does that mean that you believe every individual in every church is a true believer? It is difficult for me to understand how you could read the entire Bible and still believe that.

How do you understand what God is saying about the seven churches in Rev 2 and Rev 3?

How do you understand Jesus' explanation of the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13?

How do you understand Paul writing under the inspiration of God to the Romans, the Galatians, the Corinthians? Or some of the passages in Hebrews?

If I understand correctly what you're saying, quite frankly, I'm stunned.

Thoughts I have on 2 Thessalonians 2:6-12.

2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2:9 Even him, who's coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Do we look at the restrainer as just one being one who holds back the antichrist or is the Antichrist being held back by the light which is the Holyspirit in us as instruments.

When that light is taken up then It's his time (THE antichrist) as mentioned in verse vs 6.

And also since the Church absent from the scene then we see the effects of vs 10 and 11. (And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:) "THE LIE"!

What is this strong delusion? And what lie could be presented that wouldn't affect today's world?

During this period there is a lot going on. This time period something is going to happen global that cannot go on now.

The great tribulation is yet 3.5 years future.

The Antichrist is a familiar foe, even non-believers heard of him. His future activities are well described amongst the world.

When there's no light then there's darkness. His accomplishments would be difficult while the Church remains.

Thank you David0920. I have read some of these areas you've touched on in your recent posts elsewhere, and since I find that I simply cannot acquiesce to what you've written, I've avoided responding. And here too, you've given examples of your understanding of 'the Churches, 1 Peter 4:17, Matthew 24:16', to which I don't agree.

I don't believe the reference to 'Church' in the Bible ever represents both the true & the false (or, the wheat & the tares, as you shared). The Church, which is Christ's Body, purchased with His Blood, & sealed with His Spirit, can never be fragmented to the point where some 'churches are true & others not'. I can only see in the Word that the Church is the Body of Christ (of the True), & any other representation of it, whether by their name or unbiblical beliefs or patterns, is simply our own categorization of them as 'church', & not the biblical meaning. Whenever the apostles address the Church in their epistles, it is to Christ's Body of believers, & within that Body, some may be careless in their lives, or even have false teachers arising from amongst them that need to be identified, corrected or rooted out. If a 'church' is not built upon Christ & His apostles' teachings, then this is a false church, or a nonentity, & consigned amongst the world of unbelievers.

So, when you write that "the Holy Spirit has been removed from corporate churches and Satan, coming as an angel of light, has actually been installed to rule there", I don't believe that the Spirit was ever there - there may be semblances of religiosity & adherence to the Word that can fool many, but how do they stand before God. And so 1 Peter 4:17 speaks about judgement of the members of His Body who don't remain true & not to the (true) Church which can never be removed.

Can someone please explain , Matthew chapter 17 verse 11 ? Jesus appears to be speaking of a future event , but then in verse 12 he says that Elias is come already . Thanks in anticipation .

Thank you for your reply, each day I learn something new from the Bible, I know God forgives us even when don't do the right thing, I am forever grateful for Jesus who died on the cross for our sins, and that someday he will return to meet us in the air. Thanks again for your encouraging words.

so there was 42 generations from Abram to CHRIST .2. things i want to know ,how long was it from Adam to Abram? 2. how long from Christ to the present?

I agree GIGI that we should share what we believe the Scriptures are telling us with both a view to explain & to also learn. My reference to 'dogmatism' was how some believe & tenaciously hold onto, without any allowance for other views to be considered as possibilities. I don't think that we are being dogmatic here (though it can be appreciated that through much study, we have good reason to believe what we've learned), but holding to that correct position of learning from what others perceive & what the Spirit might further open up to us. And this is particularly true on subjects such as this, where Truths are not nicely arranged for us in an order easily understood, as we see in the examples I gave of the Triunity of God & of our salvation in Christ. Here, I believe that the Scriptures are abundantly clear, both in their wording & their extensive references to them.

2 Thessalonians 2:7. I agree with you as well here, that the word 'gone' cannot be seen in this verse; or even 'taken out or removed'. But I think that in the Greek, that is inferred - will need more expertise from our other brethren who can appeal to the grammar as to whether we accept this understanding or refute it as being erroneous. Blessings sister.

The ice storm we had caved in our roof from falling limbs, just above my sons computer (just missing my head), my bible, all my notes and my phone. My sister sent me her old study bible cuz I didnt like the ESV I got from church. Son was recently able to get me his old phone turned on. Thnx for thinking about me. Pray alls well w/you.