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Can anyone please tell me what book has the devine order in it please. I know the dead in Christ will rise first & 7 yr Tribulation is after we are taken up to meet Jesus (not His 2nd coming) in clouds yet the rest is fuzzy & I can't find it. Thank you.

GiGi,

Thanks for responding. From a big picture perspective the true gospel is not about the political nations of the world in any sense. Although God is certainly concerned about everything that happens on this planet, and that includes the political nations. But not in respect to the gospel. The gospel is concerned about the spiritual warfare that exists between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan. And that is a spiritual warfare, and has nothing to do with political nations.

That said, the Nation of Israel was God's corporate representation of His kingdom during the Old Testament time beginning with Abraham. Just like the New Testament church was the corporate representation of God's kingdom during the church age.

Unfortunately, some want to make the gospel, a social gospel, or a political gospel.

The true gospel is the declaration of our terrible condition and situation before God, because of our sin and rebellion. And the incomprehensible mercy of God, at tremendous cost to himself, of providing a solution and unimaginably blessed inheritance for those whom He saves.

David,

Pt. 3

And it seems that some on this forum disapprove and criticize that I have researched a movement that isn't found in the Bible, but in recent church history. Why would they do this? Perhaps because one who investigates theories and belief systems may be able to shed some light on this theory that they do not wish to be exposed or maybe they are concerned that posting information from honest investigation may lead some away from dispensationalism. But I don't know really the reason I get so much negative remarks from some on here.

I do not criticize how others learn on here, but I do speak to what people do say with my responses. I do think that some may be taken aback by some of us, like you, me, Jimbob, who strongly disagree with dispensational tenets and also strongly hold to our post-Trib coming of Jesus. It seems that maybe they feel that their strong adherence to their beliefs from dispensationalism should just be accepted at face value and not be challenged. I think the cloth cuts both ways and those of us who step up to post should be willing to have their IDEA challenged w/o degrading opponents character, spiritual walk or maturity.

But I know that these topics are ones that dispensationalists feel very sensitive about. This is why I have not responded every time eschatology is presented on this forum. But I do post at times just to show that there are other viewpoints that contradict the dispensational viewpoint and to support others like you and Jimbob. I am pretty tough and can take criticism, but I will speak up when I think some critical statements are unfair or out of line.

Keep us the good work of taking every thought captive to the word of God, as I do, an many others on here do, too. It is so important to pray and allow the Holy Spirit to develop in each of us the mind of Christ . By doing so, we will know that truth that is only in Him and rightly interpret Scripture and have the freedom to search for better understanding.

David

cont.

-Jesus will reign during the millennium on the physical throne of David in Jerusalem as Israel is the top nation in the world

-Israel and millennium saints will be resurrected at the end of the millenium

-there will be mortal people living on the earth during the millennium who will procreate, live a long life, and die.

-Jesus came initially for the Jews, not for the Gentiles (some believe this ) so the Gospels are not "to" Gentile believers as far as applying directly to our lives

-There are unfulfilled promises God made to the Israelites concerning possessing all the lands promised

-God will fulfill these outstanding promises in the millennium

-Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and the other apostles were only for the Jews (some believe this)

-the to was applied to Israel only, not to Gentile believers (some believe this).

-only the Epistles of Paul apply to directly to Gentile believers (some believe this)

-other epistles and the Gospels are directed to the Jews only, so they do not apply to us Gentile believers (some believe this)

-that dispensational applications to Bible interpretation are the true way to "rightly divide the Scripture" (some believe this)

I know that there are probably many more beliefs peculiar to dispensationalist, but these are the ones I have read represented on this forum.

I am hard pressed to find firm biblical support for any of these tenets of dispensationalism. To me, they are all pre-conceived assumptions and speculation superimposed onto the Scriptures . This system uses selective Scripture verses that are twisted and added to to fit their belief system, not having the Scripture form one's beliefs first and foremost.

So, since I have just recently learned of these beliefs, I have endeavored to learn more about them, how they came to be, through whom they were promulgated, what was the background of these promulgators, how they were disseminated and reinforced over time, etc.

cont.

David, Amen to that. We want to have the mind of Christ concerning our approach to Scripture interpretation and end times beliefs. When I read in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John what Jesus said about His second coming when asked by His disciples, He never once spoke of a pre-trib rapture. If this was true, He would have reassured the disciples that they would be rescued by Him prior to the Tribulation that was sure to come at the end of time. But He did not. He said repeatedly that those who endure to the end will be saved.

I, too, only knew of the pre-trib rapture doctrine (which I heard in my early 20's). It seemed a possibility then, but the more I read on the end times I soon came to reject this teaching because I could not find it mentioned of supported in Scripture anywhere. And from there, I believed what Jesus said in the Gospels concerning His return.

It wasn't until I came on this site a year or so ago that I was exposed to dispensationalism that ingterpreted that:

- the 70th weeks of Daniel was not fulfilled and is to be fulfilled during the 7 year tribulation.

-that God put a "pause" in the prophetic clock at the 69th week

-that Jesus offered the earthly kingdom to the Jews but they rejected it and HIm

-therefore, God went to plan B: Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection to save both Jews and Gentiles who believe

-the church age is part of plan B

- there is a distinction between Israel and the church and it needs to remain so as a separation for the rest of history

-the church will be raptured pre-tribulation (resurrected NT saints and Christian believers only)

-the Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth with the rapture of the Church

-the Tribulation begins the prophetic clock again for the 70th week to be fulfilled

-the Tribulation saints will be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation

-Israel will be the predominant nation in the world with renewal of the sacrificial system and all peoples will live by the OT

We are all very much humans and so prone to making mistakes . God is faithful to forgive us so please trust in His mercy and don't torment yourself with guilt and regret . Stay close to Him , learn from your mistake and trust in Him . You are not the first and you won't be the last to make a bad choice . Cling tighter to your Heavenly Father and you shall be blessed .

Because of what I'm saying about the churches of our day, I want to provide what I see from my own personal experience as well as what I have learned from others about church history and particularly the last 50-75 years or so. I am old enough to have observed some of this. Let me say emphatically that my observations and experience should never be a basis for scriptural interpretation in any sense. We can interpret our observations and experience from scripture. Never the other way around.

We can see from scripture that the church even very quickly after the cross began to depart somewhat from truth. We read this in Galatians and in the seven churches in Rev 2 and Rev 3. The Bible speaks for itself regarding this.

The church had gone very much astray by the time of the Reformation, when God raised up faithful men like Luther, Calvin, Knox and others along with the invention of the printing press that made Bibles available to the masses. Many of the Creeds and Confessions that define post-reformation churches and denominations were developed at that time and made giant steps toward correcting some of the false teachings prevalent in that day. But they were not infallible.

Unfortunately up until and including our day, very little in-depth Bible study and questioning by the churches of those Confessions has been done. And even worse, they came to have an authority in the churches equal to or more so than the Bible itself. But despite all this, God was very patient and longsuffering with the churches in continuing to use them as His primary means of getting the Gospel out into the world.

Today, however, if we examine what the churches are doing and teaching we find that the Bible has essentially lost its authority as we see activities and teachings within the churches that would never have been tolerated 50-75 years ago. And virtually every church teaches a do-it-yourself Gospel where WE need to DO something to become saved.

More later perhaps.

An analysis of "the Lie" in 2 Thessalonians 2:11.

1 Timothy 6:9 talks about traps which "drown men in perdition." Let us consider for a moment how things will stand after the Rapture of the Church (assuming of course in a Pre-Trib rapture viewpoint). Before we tangle with what seems to be an impossible situation for those remaining on the earth to believe what just happened is anything other than calling His saints home to glory; let us rewind back to the time of Christ. In this time there clearly were many miracles which could only be attributed logically to God. (see John 9:32 and the healing of the blind man). Nonetheless; Satan (or Beelzebub which is a reference to an equally evil entity) was attributed to such things by the blind Pharisees. ( Matthew 12:22). This was despite the obvious fulfillment of prophecies which pertained to Christ from the Old Testament; not to mention his own prophetic warnings of crucifixion to come as well as the Resurrection seen by 500 ( 1 Cor. 15:1-11). Such hatred shows the blindness of the minds of men by the god of this world ( 2 Cor. 4:4); as well as our own state apart from the illumination of the Holy Spirit to such matters.

So looking ahead to the beginning of the Tribulation; we should expect more of the same. Evil will be unrestrained at that time unlike any time before or since ( Matt. 24:21). Since all but 8 died in Noah's flood; we expect therefore that the demons being loosened will be the thing making things worse since a number actually will physically survive to the end. A short inspection of the media today should clearly indicate how entrenched images of occult and Satanic worship has become acceptable to the mainstream. When we see undeniable and verifiable signs such as fire coming down from heaven that the False Prophet performs; it is no surprise the world embraces it; and worships the image (as well as likely creating it themselves perhaps on their own computers).

I will pray for all of you

Chris, I'm not sure about this but this just came to me when I read your reply to GiGi about the restrainer possibly being the antichrist. The antichrist will receive a deadly wound in Rev.13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. I've always thought of this deadly wound as being one of his earthy powers, as the verse says "(one of his heads) as it were wounded to death". But if the antichrist was to receive a deadly wound and Satan were to ((enter into him)) as he did Judas Iscariot, (Lu.22:3) and (Jn.13:27) could it be possible that the restrainer is the antichrist? I have always thought the 2nd beast in Rev.13 was Satan because Satan is cast out of heaven and ((into the earth)) in Rev.12:9. Then the 2nd beast comes up ((out of the earth)) in Rev.13:11 and this beast looks like a lamb, and speaks as a dragon. If this beast is Satan he would be disguised as Christ, looking like the lamb but speaking as the dragon. .12 says he causeth the earth and them that dwell therein to worship the first beast, (the antichrist) whose deadly wound was healed. v.13 says "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. v.14 He deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast, (the antichrist) Then v.16 comes the mark of the beast so this would be happening during great tribulation. Eccle.1:9 tells us "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. So if Satan possessed the first son of perdition, (Judas Iscariot) then he will possess the second son of perdition, (the antichrist) also. I would like to get your thoughts on this, also Spencer, GiGi, or who ever has anything they would like to add. We should all be learning together, the Word of God is Alive!

Part 2: Attempting to forestall the inevitable.

IT seems that with the downplay (if even being a factor at all) of coming to saving faith of repentance for individuals another issue is being unwilling to confront national evils which we are called to sound out against as per Ezekiel 33. There are several reasons for this; one being fear of societal disapproval or persecution; going against the grain of many who are rather lukewarm about the subject and the most insidious perhaps being our own tendancy to be overcomfortable as the pot approaches boiling as we see in the case of Lot. James 5:3 should be carefully read; as many think that through their own efforts they can make it through the Tribulation; or even be able to endure things before that should there be a crash in the metals market; or perhaps something else such as nuclear fallout that could render such wealth useless. There needs to be a healthy balance between wise prudence in resources and hoarding; the former being ideally used for other saints in a time of crisis as was in the book of Acts; and the latter being a tendency to fall into based on political persuasion being set above spiritual wisdom.

As with my first part in this series; it should be obvious that the crap will hit the fan; so to speak. Or; as I put it God is much more longsuffering than I am; considering the long list of abominations our own nation has committed; although hardly alone in such actions we have been the catalyst for expanding these horrors worldwide (abortion; pornography; illicit drug trade).

Whether we are Babylon or not; or a part of the final world system it is evident that destruction when it comes will be so speedy that there is no remedy to avoid the famine; plagues; war and demonic infestation of the earth at that time short of Divine Intervention and protection.

Satan will have his day in the spotlight; so let us work while it still is day. ( John 9:4).

The attempt to forestall the inevitable.

It seems; at least from much of my personal experience that kicking that perverbial can down the road is a rather common tactic for the unbeliever; namely that of death and judgment before our maker. Of course there are many other techniques as well; such as minimalizing the true hopelessness of our sin nature; attempting to steer all conversation on the evils of the world apart from our own accountability and sometimes obvious vices.

One of the blinders that we often embrace from our youth is some sentimental view of those of our own family or friends who have passed on; as being somehow in a better place. We do ourselves no favors here; for Jesus Himself didn't demonstrate any mercy for the rich man with the very real tale of the Lazarus Parable. It is the Lord which works in us who shine forth as the stars as part of the Body of believers which is the significant part of every saint of God that lasts on into eternity; albeit with different levels of glory and each being uniquely created to represent a particular blend of characteristics. We see this in the spiritual giftings in this life. Lest we "hyperspiritualize" any of this stuff; ALL aspects of a redeemed life from work to family to recreation as well as our "spiritual" duties such as witnessing; scripture reading; prayer; etc. are called to be a representative display of Christ's character in our lives.

Another important point here is that Christ was a man of sorrows ( Isaiah 53:3); as well as all other characteristics that chapter describes in great detail. There were many who admired him as a great teacher or prophet ( Matthew 16:13-20); but only those that understood that He was the Son of God (or the "I am") were truly saved. This shows why many didn't remain with Him; He wasn't afraid to challenge those would be disciples ( 2 Timothy 4:10; Luke 18:23; Matt. 19:22).

Another problem exists when we are afraid to confront national sins. See part 2)

This verse is like the Lord commanding me knowing what I am going through at this time

GiGi,

I am not at all familiar with history of Dispensationalism. But what I know of its teachings and from what I read in comments here of those that hold that position, I am quite convinced, as you are, that it is contrary in many ways, especially regarding the future of National Israel and the events of the end times, to what God declares in the Bible .

The divergent views that I read hear regarding the end times and some other doctrines are, I believe, in large part due to a failure to interpret scripture using the principles that God lays down for us in the Bible itself. And instead to a high degree, substitute man's wisdom which will ultimately lead us further away from the truth.

May God in His Mercy open all of our eyes to His Truth as we continue to prayerfully compare spiritual things with spiritual.

You know Chris,

I think we are all on here to learn, so it is unfair to speak of those who do not share one's viewpoint as being dogmatic and not also apply this term to oneself. I agree that eschatology concerns future events, so that none of us can truly know how the details will pan out. But we can know the overall order of events and the major events by studying Scripture, which I have done multiple times over the decades, and others like you and S. Spencer have done. We just do not agree on what is revealed in Scripture. I do not think either of us will persuade the other, so we do need to face this fact in a gracious manner towards one another. And I don't think there is anything wrong with being sure of one's eschatology beliefs as long as one has the mindset that the future history and the Holy Spirit may change one's thinking as we go forward.

As the Greek interpretation of the phrase "until he is taken out of the way" of 2 Thess. 2:7. You have given what I discovered as to what the Greek says for that with the exception of the addition of the word (gone). I did not find that word in the Greek translation. Rather the word used in the translation is meant to mean: to arise from the midst; to reveal or become manifest, etc. but there is no mention of the subject of the phrase being gone or taken away.

I can agree with your statement that the restrainer may not be the Anti-Christ.

I hope you have a good day, Chris. Thanks for your reply.

Spencer

I feel the same as you do about those who believe the system of dispensationalism. To me this is a theory that seeks Scripture to verify it rather than begin with Scripture to know what it teaches. John Nelson Darby needed to continue to create new co trine to add to the pre-trib rapture theory to make it work in regards to Scriptural support. I believe that he created a system that appealed to "itching ears". When I read both the Old Testament and the New Testament concerning these things I just cannot see where this theory hold to the truth of the Word.

Thx Mel8 For good words it warms a cold body today with blue ice outside and strong winds from the northwest of the Northern Hemisphere. I've been doing something as mundane as moving furniture.

God bless us all with strength in the last days in anticipation of the Lord's return. Love you all in Christ. Stay strong in the word of God.

I would like prayers for my journey now as widow, and having to deal with so many changes, I am a Christian been saved and Baptized. When my husband was sick with cancer, I was concerned about how I was going to pay all the debt when he died so I filed for bankruptcy Chapter 7. and I had been discharged, then by husband passed before that happened. So I had a life insurance for 10,000 to pay for his funeral costs and they took it from me too. The thing that I am concerned with is that I didn't have patient to wait on the Lord to guide me instead I decided to go and due it on my own, without asking the Lord what I should do. I asked him for forgiveness and now I am trusting in him to guide me through all of this. I know I need prayers. So if you can pray for me. Thank You

Chris,

If I may quote from your comment to which I am replying:

"When the Spirit is taken away so that the Great Tribulation might commence on Earth, the Church must also be taken, or else we have a Church without the Holy Spirit."

While it was your intent I'm sure to teach otherwise, you have caught what I believe the Bible is actually teaching in your statement. I went through this in a prior comment but allow me to repeat. This is in part a very sad story.

We first must understand that when God speaks of the "church" or "His people", God can be referring to either the churches and congregations as the corporate representation of God's Kingdom made up of both Wheat (True Believers) and Tares (those that appear to be true believers but are not) ( Matt 13:24-30,36-43), or He may be talking about the "eternal church" that includes only True Believers... this depending on the context of the passage.

During the Church Age, God the Holy Spirit was present and active in the churches that were attempting to be reasonably faithful to the Bible as they were commanded to bring the Gospel both within the church and to the world. However at the Beginning of the Great Tribulation, which I believe is the period we are in today, God the Holly Spirit has been removed from the corporate churches and Satan, coming as an angel of light, has actually been installed to rule there ( 1 Pet 4:17). True Believers have been commanded to flee the churches ( Matt 24:16) , and God is only saving OUTSIDE the churches as the Gospel goes forth from individual Believers and ministries not associated with a church. And during this time of God's Final Harvest, also called the Latter Rain, God saving a "great multitude that no man can number" ( Rev 7:9).

Immediately after the Great Tribulation, Christ will return to perform the Resurrection, and the Rapture, and the final destruction of Satan and all of the unsaved.

I think this is the only solution that harmonizes these and all the verses.

Eschatology.

Don't fill up your cup.

Leave room for learning.

When we study scripture it harmonize itself into doctrines such as theology, Bibliology, Anthropology, Soteriolog, Pneumatology, Ecclesiology, ect..

One that is not studied much is "Israelology" That's one of many reasons there is so much confusion in eschatology.

When you dive right into eschatology and neglect "Israelology" and what the old testament has to say about End times our understanding becomes a battle!!

Revelation is nearly impossible, Matthew 24 and 25 becomes confusing.

So we topic search to fill in the blanks. When we do we're going to find Pre, Mid, and Post- Tribulation and Millennium views.

By error the shaping and building of some understanding of scripture starts.

Some attempt to shape the rest of God's word around their eschatology!!

It becomes dear to them because if it doesn't hold water their whole theology sinks.

Now faulty hermeneutics comes into play. To fit their eschatology into their theology they have to do a lot of spiritualizing scripture.

Mostly the Post-trib group is guilty for this.

Some say we're already in the Millennium, "Christ is going to rule in our hearts." However there is diverse views in this group.

This one is new to me!!

Some believe in the Millennium, but entirely ignore the old testament and say the Millennium is in heaven!

And they say the rapture is at the end of the world During the time of judgment.

If the Millennium is in heaven and the rapture is afterwards ( End of world )

How are you caught up to meet the Lord in the air? or Caught up at all? Where are you going? Your already there!

My point is it is their entire framework that rides on their eschatology.

Everything else is built on it.

So to them to deny the Literal Millennium here on earth, Pre-trib, Diversity of Saints, OT Saints, Church, Tribulation Saints. is Paramount.

This happens when we deny Israel's righteous place in God's program.

GB

I lost my husband on December 28, 2022, So I am on my own living on social Security, I know it will be hard having a house payment and car payment, that's Ok. But I am 76 years old and I don't like asking my family for money. Is that being pride, I know God doesn't like pride?

I believe that we need to be very very careful about attributing things to ' evil spirits ' etc . I have a few health problems , one of which is SLE . This can actually affect my brain and in turn affect my moods and thoughts and beliefs . If I didn't know that this was caused by SLE I might have thought that I had an evil spirit around me , others also might have come to that conclusion . We humans are basically bags of chemicals which are not always perfectly balanced due to many things . Genetics , environmental toxins etc . I think we should always consider organic causes before jumping to the evil spirit answer . I didn't know that I had SLE for a long time , God was there for me , calming me , comforting me , strengthening me and helping me to keep control of myself , He guided my behaviour by allowing me to know the difference between right and wrong and that which is acceptable to Him and that which is not . All thanks to God for keeping me safe .

please remember me and my family in your prayers today

People knew the Truth thousands of years ago , many of them couldn't even read or write and yet they still had an understanding of and a relationship with , their Creator . We don't need the internet , we need the Bible , Old and New . That's all . All those thousands and thousands of people who came before us didn't have the internet . Their understanding was probably better than ours because they had a clear and focused vision of the Truth without a load of erroneous or irrelevant or innacurate information . The devil likes to distract us and in this age that we are in now , he's doing very well for himself it seems .

Dear Shepherd of God,

I need a Powerful vigil intercessory prAyeRs to COMBAT THE ROOTS Of MONEY Problem in my Livelihood & Career.

To COMBAT THE ROOTS Of FATHER'S WOUNDS, MOTHER'S WOUNDS,IN LAW'S WOUNDS, FRIENDS WOUNDS, RELATIONSHIP WOUND. { As I Decree as same SECRETS oF JABEZ PRAYER upon My Life & Livelihood ; 1 Chronicles 4:10

"And Jabez made a prayer to the God of Israel, saying, If only you would truly give me a blessing, and make wider the limits of my land, and let your hand be with me, and keep me from evil, so that I may not be troubled by it! And God gave him his desire." }

ThAnKs for your help and prayers.

ThAnK YoU LoRd JeSuS cHrIsT!

Matthew 13:24-30

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:36-43

Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one. The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

1 Corinthians 2:13

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Matthew 13:10-17

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Matthew 13:34,35

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Psalms 78:2

I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

Habakkuk 2:3

For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

Page 2 to GiGi.

Then the question, 'from whose midst?' You gave the option that the 'he who restrains' might refer to the anti-Christ. Yet, the next verse, states that only after the restrainer is removed, will "that Wicked be revealed". Clearly, "that Wicked" is the anti-Christ because "his coming is after the working of Satan with all power, etc., etc." (v9). So, the restrainer cannot be the anti-Christ, or else he would be the one restraining himself from appearing until he is taken out of the way.

Then when we read the phrase, "until out of the midst he might be (gone)", I believe that this Restrainer is taken out of the midst of God's people, and by His position in believers & His working through them as Christ's witnesses on Earth, "the mystery of lawlessness" is held from manifesting itself fully. When the Spirit is taken away so that the Great Tribulation might commence on Earth, the Church must also be taken, or else we have a Church without the Holy Spirit.

And that 'mystery of lawlessness' that has been working in the World throughout the ages, is finally able to materialize into the likeness of the Devil incarnate, where God's Laws & things Divine are totally abolished by him & his laws take their place. And for those unbelievers remaining on the Earth, God sends them "a strong delusion, that they should believe a (his) lie..that they all might be damned" (vv11,12). Thank you Gigi for your time given with this subject.

Page 1.

Thanks Gigi for sharing that, aligning with your other comments on this subject. And yes, eschatology is always a difficult subject to understand & analyse as it's still future & the narrative given in the OT, & by Jesus & the Apostles, are somewhat fragmented, pertaining to their pressing reason for speaking or writing. We are then left to put it all together & come up with a doctrine. Therefore, how we gather up these fragments of Scripture scattered all over the Bible & interpret them (hopefully not in a way to force them to fit our belief), will determine whether we dogmatically hold onto our position or leave the subject open so as to consider other possibilities or scriptural revelations. And I place myself in this latter position (as you can see in my staying the course with Jimbob), to learn what Scriptures are taken & used in support & what is done with those 'other' Scriptures. As I even mentioned once to him, if these 'other' portions were unavailable or too indistinct to make sense of, then I believe I too would strongly lean to the position that you both hold.

Anyway, it is what it is, so we move on, without holding any ill-feeling towards one another, and that rather we should reserve our dogmatism to the essentials as that concerning the Triune God & our great Salvation.

Concerning 2 Thessalonians 2:7 though, it would be good if brothers Giannis or Jesse dealt with the Greek rendering of that verse, as they are way more qualified than I. But to pre-empt their input with my gleanings from the Greek Lexicon, it seems that the verse in Greek would read, 'for the mystery of lawlessness is already working, only (there is) the one restraining it at present, until out of the midst he might be (gone)'. So to the point you raised on the latter part of that verse: "actually should read until he rises from the midst (or something close to that)", aligns with what you've stated, & I believe David0920 also mentioned 'midst' (Gk. mesos). (cont'd).

Dear S. Spencer,

I must say that you do not know what I know of Scripture, nor do you know how I form my beliefs. But you have assumed that I first have a doctrine and then search the Scriptures to prove it. That is not true of me.

I also do not intend to reprove anyone. I just wish to present my viewpoint and to respond to others stating why I disagree.

I believe that you are a serious Christian who loves the Word, studies it, forms your beliefs by it, and lives it out in you life. So am I that way. I ask you to believe this about me also.

For now I wish to leave this conversation, if I may. But perhaps I will respond to something someone writes. As you may know, I usually do not lead out with a post starting a new thread. I usually respond to what others say.

I want to have healthy conversations with others by being respectful, earnest, truthful, thoughtful, and helpful. So, we shall see how the Lord leads me from this post forward.

Have a good nights rest. It is late here on the west coast, so you are probably snoozing. I tried to get to the snoozing part, but couldn't. So, I got up and came here. Off to bed again. Hope I can sleep well. Been having sleep difficulties since my hand surgery 2/2. I hope I can overcome this soon.