All Discussion PAGE 515

Well S. Spencer,

I don't think that what you aimed to show by these 9 posts then was above board. I thought you were really trying to us information that could shed light on the what Christians believed post apostolic up to now. But it seems you were toying with me.

I am very sincere in what I write and post. I have studied the Scripture over and over again on end times since my teens. I have walked with the Lord for as long as I can remember, so therefore, I have been a believer nearly all of my life. I can't remember a time when I did not believe the Gospel nor put my faith in Jesus. I hope that makes it more clear to you.

I think there is value in studying history whether from an book or from the internet. The testimony of Jesus in believers has a history of nearly 2000 years. We should be humble enough to learn from others across the ages.

I do not think I am an authority on any matters of doctrine. I am not speaking authoritatively in my posts. But I do believe my viewpoints align with Scripture.

For me, I prefer it when people explain their doctrines not just list Scripture after Scripture without much explanantion. I do hear you when you ask people to use Scripture, and I do, but do not always cite it.

I do not think it is always helpful to break down Scriptures as you say. I think this often leads to error. So you can do your posts your way and I am fine with that.

And I will take your suggestions to heart. But also, I hope you can come to appreciate my way of presenting my views as they are, like yours, interpretations of what we have learned from the Scriptures.

Steven, it seems that when we disagree on a viewpoint such as this one, you do tend to say things to discredit my viewpoint as being invalid because I research along with studying Scripture. Please! I doubt you came to your pre-trib views nor dispensational thinking only by studying Scripture. I can pretty much bet your have read about it in writings other than the Scripture.

My prayer request for healing and continued strength for my husband Lydell H. that has been suffering from a massive stroke and is bed bound! He has been suffering for 6 months with a stroke one after another may now be suffering from another heart attack and had to be placed back onto the ventilator! Please pray for healing & his continued strength in the Lord!

Gigi.

I didn't read any of that Material!!

Not one sentence!

I didn't know Irenenaeus was mentioned.

I was just showing your 99.9 percent might be in jeopardy.

Just kidding.

I was showing you can get what you want out of the internet if you search hard enough.

I'm not saying that it's not useful.

But I am saying I wouldn't use it as concrete evidence.

Gigi I have seen you state you walked with God for 60 years!!

I don't quite know what that means but it sounds good.

I expect doctrine broken down by scripture when you present yourself as a authoritive figure.

You've also stated that you're not as "scholarly" in the old testament as you are in the new testament,

But I would say you can't be scholarly at one and not be at the other!

And most of what you get out of Revelation and the end times is going to come from the Old Testament.

GB.

Gigi.

Here's the title of the post.

The Rapture: A Pre-Darby Rapture

Petterson, David

Part of the The Rapture David Petterson series.

Hi Gigi.

Don't mean to upset you.

Every bit of what I just posted was off the Internet.

I was on my way to the airport and I forgot to give the purpose or exercise I was trying to display.

You can get arguments for each side on the internet.

This is not to authenticate a view.

But this is to show the internet is not the way to go on this topic.

Why not break down scripture when you reprove someone, you might help them that way.

But if you say, "They didn't hold that view in the early church then it shows you don't trust your own studies or haven't studied "SCRIPTURE". There's a different in studying doctrine and studying scripture.

Good night.

Thanks brother Jesse for that extra information from Joel & how we should understand the last days. After reading your comment, my thoughts also turned to Hebrews 1:1,2, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath IN THESE LAST DAYS spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds...".

Here, the distinction is also made clear: there were the old days when God spoke to HIS people through the mouths of His prophets, but now in "these last days" (i.e. the whole period from Jesus' first Coming & ministering to His people, as the Word of (& from) God made flesh, till He comes again). And when He comes again, it will be for HIS Church (the great assembly of saved Jew & Gentile). When the prophets of old spoke as 'thus & thus saith the LORD', Israel held them in disdain & rejected God's warnings, resulting in them being sent away into exilic chastisement. But in these last days, those who've taken heed & believed in God's Words, even in Jesus His Son, will also be taken away, not to chastisement & His Wrath as disobedient Israel received, but to Himself, as we "wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10). Thanks again Jesse & every blessing.

S. Spencer,

As you suggested, using Google is not a good way to prove a doctrine.

However, as you have done here, we can use an internet search to find our more about what history shows us from the time of the apostles up to now.

I have read all 9 posts and have replied to some. I don't think that you have proven that more than few isolated people believed in pre-trib rapture over the course of Christian history. Some of your citations do not speak to a pre-trib rature, but to the one and only Second coming of Jesus after the tribulation. So I am unconvinced by your reasoning here. I continue to hold to the post-tribulation second coming of Jesus and the one and only resurrection and glorification of believers bodies at that time. I believe the trumpet call in Mat. 24:29-31; Rev. 11:15; 1 Thess 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:51 all refer to the same trumpet call-the seventh and last trumpet that bring an end to the Tribulation and the beginning of Jesus' reign with the saints.

Thanks for taking the time to bring these posts forward. As I said to Chris, I don't prefer to address eschatology because it usually brings division. And I gave my reasons for responding to this thread also. I do not wish to continue to hash this out. I respect your right to your viewpoint, and I hope you will respect my right as well.

Dear S. Spencer

Identifying a few people pre-Darby that taught a pre-trib rapture does not show that this view was widely held. Millions upon millions throughout the centuries adhered to only one coming of Christ at the end of the age after the tribulation. The miniscule percentage of those who thought like Darby are very rare, not common.

But I am willing to listen to your thoughts on this.

Just because these believers in a time of widespread persecution expected the return of Jesus anytime reflect the emminent expectation of pre-trib rapture does not equate them.

These believers were being persecuted and thought, as you stated, that they were experiencing the Tribulation that Jesus promised to "cut short". Their expectation has nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture because they thought they we in the Tribulation already and were anticipating Jesus coming and therefore, "cutting short the tribulation"

2 Thessalonians 2:2-3 even says "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: For that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition:"

These verses warn believers about those who say that the coming of Christ is eminent!

S. Spencer, this does not speak of a pre-trib rapture because it says plainly,"in the end" which is the end of history-Jesus' second and last coming.

Dear S. Spencer.

In Revelation, when it speaks of the heavens being rolled up like a scroll, this is the coming of Christ after the Tribulation. He then begins to pour out the wrath of God on all those unbelieving on the earth. Of course the righteous have been resurrected and changed and reside with Jesus at this time, thus being spared the wrath of God. But these righteous were not raptured before the Tribulation, as you assume.

S. Spencer, can you give the exact quote and reference for Irenenaeus?

S. Spencer, this citation does not mention a pre-trib rapture, but a pre-millennium coming of Christ and that the judging of the saints in heaven (or the place this person indicates) will take three and half years. NO mention of this being during the Tribulation.

So it proves nothing of what you are saying.

S. Spencer

Neither of these citations in this post speak to a pre-trib rapture, but to the second coming at the Last which is the seventh and final trump in Revelation that ushers in the second and only return of Jesus after the tribulation.

Teresa, My grandson and I prayed for Ryan and your family tonight. May God bless you and keep you all safe, saved, and sanctified, in Jesus name! The name above all names.

Hallelujahthank You Jesus

Hi Gigi.

You said 99.9 percent of the early church believed in a post trib.

How did you come up with those numbers?

Here's one reason we shouldn't rely on Google as a sure way to build doctrine.

Part 1 of 9.

No, you didn't miss it. Neither did Darby. The article title is not suggesting that the Rapture occurred before the days of John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), but rather is pointing out that a belief in the Rapture of the Church (in particular, a pre-tribulation Rapture) existed and was taught before Darby's birth. As an example of the allegation that belief in a pre-tribulation Rapture is relatively recent, Michael Bird wrote, "The pretrib view did not appear on the scene of church history until J.N. Darby in the 1830s."[1] In this article, we will examine some of the references in biblical works pre-dating Darby that either explicitly taught or appear to teach a pre-tribulation Rapture.

See part 2.

Part 2.

Early Witnesses

After the time of the apostles, a number of writings indicate belief in the imminence of Christ's return, which is consistent with pre-tribulationism. Clement of Rome (35-101), Ignatius of Antioch (died 110), The Didache (a late first-century anonymous Christian treatise), The Epistle of Pseudo-Barnabas (circa 70-130), and The Shepherd of Hermas (second century) all reference Christ's imminent return. Even though it appears that the apostolic fathers were largely post-tribulational (because they believed the persecution they were enduring was the tribulation itself), they held to the doctrine of imminency. J. Barton Payne (a post-tribulationist) concluded that "belief in the imminence of the return of Jesus was the uniform hope of the early church.

See part 3.

Part 3.

But it appears that Irenaeus of Lyon (120-202) was a pre-tribulationist. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John) and articulated his eschatological views in Against Heresies, Book 5. First, he referred to Enoch's translation and Elijah's being "caught up" as previews of the Rapture. "For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up." Second, Irenaeus refers to the Church's being "caught up" before the tribulation. "And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be' ( Mat 24:21). For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption." The italicized "this" in his quotation is clearly a reference to the tribulation, which he then introduces

See part 4.

Please pray for work breakthroughs in Jesus's mighty name.

Part 4.

Victorinus of Petrovium (died 304) was a bishop in modern Slovenia, martyred during Diocletian's reign. In his commentary on Revelation (6:14), he writes, "And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.] For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away."[6] Later, while explaining Revelation 15, he writes, "And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.] For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst. Therefore, Victorinus believed the Church would be raptured before the breaking of the seventh seal (and therefore, before the seven trumpet judgments and the seven bowl judgments), making him, at least, what we refer to as "pre-wrath" in his eschatology.

See part 5.

Part 5.

In a sermon entitled "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World," Syrian church father Pseudo-Ephraem (fourth to sixth century) wrote, "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. The gathering Pseudo-Ephraem mentions appears to refer to a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church.

The Middle Ages

Admittedly, the influence of Origen and Augustine was successful in turning the established church to a belief in amillenialism by around the fifth century. This view would dominate the Medieval period, with little-known exceptions. However, one exception was the Apostolic Brethren in northern Italy. This new (and thus, persecuted) ecclesiastical order eventually numbered in the thousands and evidently held a pre-tribulation Rapture position. In 1316, an anonymous treatise entitled The History of Brother Dolcino articulated some of the beliefs of the Apostolic Brethren. Their leader, Brother Dolcino, believed he and his followers would be taken to heaven and protected from the actions of the Antichrist before later descending back to earth, thus holding to a belief in a pre-tribulation Rapture.

See part 6.

Part 6.

The Archives Open

Johannes Gutenberg's movable-type printing press in the 15th century made books more widely available. With more Bibles accessible to read and study, more biblical works were printed, especially following the Protestant Reformation. Many of these works were shelved and have been gathering dust in the antiquity sections of libraries across the world for centuries. But within the last two decades, some of these works have been converted to digital (and thus, searchable) formats. One Christian historian, William Watson, has taken advantage of these available works, spending hundreds of hours reading and searching Puritan writings from the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. A simple word search for "rapt," "rapture," and "left behind" yielded at least two dozen findings, from notable authors such as Increase Mather, Cotton Mather, Philip Doddridge and John Gill. Unquestionably, some of the uses of "rapture" by these writers refer to the act of being taken up to heaven.

See part 7.

Part 7

A few examples of William Watson's findings will have to suffice, given the length of this article.

William Sherwin (1607-1687, minister at Wallington) wrote, "The Saints at the sounding of that last Trumpet at the end of the world shall be changed in a moment, at the twinkling of an eye rapt up to meet Christ in the air." He even refers to the early church fathers' agreeing with him: "This Doctrine many of the ancient Fathers acknowledged Justine Martyr Irenaeus Tertullian even Augustine sometime held it, though by the subtlety of Satan, forgeing lyes to asperse the Millenary opinion, and stirring men up to foist in offensive errours in these latter times hath again discovered it, after so many hundred years of its lying hid for the most part in the Church, to be a doctrine really embraced by his faithful people [who] will doubtless certainly know, that upon their rapture to meet Christ, they shall be perfected in glory evermore in heaven."

Boston Puritan Increase Mather (1639-1723), father of Cotton Mather, wrote, "When Christ comes, Believers shall see the King in all his Glory, and shall go with him to the Land that is very far off. Heaven is the Land that is very far off. Christ has assured believers it shall be thus, John 14.2 . He will not go back to Heaven and leave them behind him. No, they shall sit with him in Heavenly places [later] they shall come down from Heaven . They shall be with him when he comes to Judge the World.

See part 8.

Part 8

Morgan Edwards (1722-1795) helped found Rhode Island College, which eventually became Brown University. While a student at Bristol Baptist Seminary, he set forth a very clear pre-tribulation Rapture belief: "The dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (1Thes.iv,17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the father's house' (John xiv.2), and so disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints." Edwards' reference to "three years and a half" does not mean that he was a mid-tribulationalist. His writings indicate he believed the total duration of the tribulation period to be not seven years but three and a half.

There are far too many references to the Rapture in Watson's published findings to articulate here. He cites Thomas Collier, John Asgill, Robert Maton, John Archer, James Durham, Jeremiah Burroughs, Archbishop James Ussher and dozens of others. The archives have opened, and the allegation that belief in the Rapture did not appear until Darby in the 1830s simply won't hold.

See part 9.

Part 9.

Appreciating Darby's Contribution.

Although there are many references to the Rapture (some pre-tribulational) by published works before his time, we simply do not know if John Nelson Darby was influenced by these works. His writings articulating a pre-tribulation Rapture should not be minimized but fully appreciated. We are indebted to him for his enormous contribution to the subject, setting it forth in a clearer way to a wider 19th-century audience and beyond. Darby did not invent this teaching, nor did the many who taught it prior to his time. He taught it, and they taught it, because the Bible teaches it.

What some fail to take in consideration is some of the early church was being persecuted and thought they were already in the tribulation as Paul emphasized in his writings.

There also early writings that were never translated.

We can't Google search what we think the early church believed and (Shape) our doctrine accordingly and yet when asked to bring forth scripture you can't properly do so.

This type of negligence can hinder growth and it will show up in your theology.

When truly studying Gods word our theology should shape our eschatology, Not our eschatology shape our theology.

God bless.

Yes it is.

Amen. I enjoyed the reading.

Please pray for my cousin Steve, he has cancer, pray for God's mercy and grace for him. Please also, my cousin Joe, for salvation, and Brandon, for salvation, and hat God will convict him of abusing drugs. Thank you all so very much!

Thank you, I just prayer with and for you,Amen.

I know the need. Me too!