All Discussion PAGE 517

Hi Burney. "Divers" is just an old spelling for 'diverse'. And as you know, 'diverse' means 'of different kinds or forms'. So in Luke 21:11, "And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences...", would mean 'there would be high intensity earthquakes in many different locations throughout the World.'

Dear Patrick Stempin, welcome to the KJV site. I myself am from Scandinavia and have heard about the church you attend.

And Derrek Prince has some wonderful teaching/sermons on youtube.

That's what struck me when I read your words. That this is a tormenting spirit. It may be something unsettled, only the Lord knows. So we leave it to Him to give you the spirit of wisdom and understanding. Our dear Paul was a man who knew the spirits. When we know who we have and make an example of a tormentor. Then we throw it out in the holy name of Jesus Christ, according to the will of God the Father, Amen. I recommend you and look at this. In the meantime, we must hold fast to God's promises. We must believe in Almighty God in the holy name of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit who lives in our hearts today. So we pray in the name of Jesus Christ that He will give you the information you need to get to the bottom of this. Lord of lords and King of kings, our Lord will reign forever. His blood He sacrificed on Calvary He did once for all. Your ears must be open to the voice of God that will speak in you. His voice is always gentle. All other voices are bound and do not return in the Holy Name of Jesus Christ according to the will of God the Father, Amen.

May you go in peace and maybe look up the suggestion that Giannis gave you. You understand this yourself, I would think.

You must know/should know if there is something spiritual that is bothering you. Also remember the Lord's Prayer and the full armor of God, put it on every day. Love u in Christ and never lose hope, we pray for u in the name of Jesus Christ Hi loves u. Stay strong in the word of God. Luke 12 Chapter

Thanks Jimbob. "Last Days". 2 Timothy 3:1-4 would certainly apply to those days after the apostolic age - the days when his words would be realized. Since we're not given the years that these traits will be observed, we could safely assume that it was some time later. And certainly we can identify some of them (e.g. unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, lovers of pleasures, form of godliness, etc.) occurring well before our recent centuries. Therefore, I believe that Acts 2:17,18 is very applicable to the 'last days'.

Sorry, I can't take up the matter of 'sealing & the marriage supper' further, than what has already been presented. I can understand & appreciate your stance on them, and there is merit in what you write, but ultimately, it is what we understand the situation to be at the time that the Restrainer is taken away. Who He is & what are the resulting effects of His removal/departure can determine how we understand the other parts of this eschatological period.

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I think we can agree that the World today is in very bad shape, every area of human morality & decency are being thrown out the window. The heart of man is truly wicked & the acts of governments by dishonoring God & rejecting His Laws are being increasingly

manifested.

If then the Restrainer is God Himself, by the Acts & Presence of His Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:7 says, "until he be taken out of the way." That is, altogether being removed so that no more godly influence might bear upon this corrupt World. I don't view this as the Spirit's side-stepping His restraining work and yet maintaining His position within the Body of Christ. The fact of the Spirit even in the World assures us that God still has His Witness (of Himself) manifested in His people who radiate His Truth & Light. It must mean that with the Spirit gone & therefore also the Church, the magnitude of spiritual & moral darkness will totally overwhelm the World. As long the Church is in the World, God's Spirit must also be here; & this guarantees that the World will have the Light & Power of God shining against her - and this cannot be when the Church is gone.

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Thank you GiGi. No offence at all taken dear Sister - there's been a lot of hair-splitting going on already to try to come to grips & understand our various beliefs on this subject.

The issue here is: when are the "Spirit and the church" removed? I think you have been following these comments, so probably no need to revisit my input & Scriptures in support. And of course, bro S. Spencer is engaged in discussion with you as well, providing much of my own thoughts on the matter.

I understand that your sense is that the Restrainer is not the Holy Spirit, but possibly, Michael. Then going back to 2 Thessalonians 2:6,7: the Church at that time knew all about this Restrainer, but the Church today is in the dark. Since the "mystery of iniquity (or, of lawlessness)" was already evident & at work, the one restraining these 'acts of lawlessness' from appearing in the one who is personified as the epitome of rejection of all of God's Laws, would have to already been active throughout the ages. Can this then be Michael?

Would the archangel be so empowered to restrain the iniquities of the world in such a manner for such a long period so that it would not come to fruition in the person of that Wicked one (anti-Christ, coming in the authority & power of Satan)? This may be possible, but seems highly improbable, rather that God Himself has kept the world from sinking into the mire of full-blown depravity awaiting the day of His abandonment of the World to Satan, that His Judgement against the World, culminating at the final outpouring of His Wrath & battle, might be seen & justified.

Dear S. Spencer again,

You said that it is 2 Thessalonians 4 where dispensationalists find the doctrine of the rapture. I interpret that as the second coming after the tribulation.

You said that one cannot hang a doctrine on one verse, but here you admitted to doing so.

I have considered the dispensational viewpoint from many angles Scripturally and cannot attest to it being true.

I have read the Scriptures fairly thoroughly about the return of Christ and the gathering of the saints and conclude that He comes after the tribulation and gathers ALL saints at this time, not at a pre-trib rapture and then gathers more at s coming in the clouds after the tribulation and then gathers again those from the millennial reign.

I just don't think the Scriptures teach this anywhere. But I can find many Scriptures that say that Jesus comes again (once) after tribulation and then gathers the saints. I posted some Scriptures in my previous post. So, I do not hang my doctrine on one verse in Scripture.

Hello S. Spencer,

I did know that dispensationalists use the passage in 2 Thessalonians for as proof for the rapture doctrine. I just say that I believe it describes Jesus' second coming at the end of the tribulation.

I will say that I am convinced of my position on this just as you are. If I am dogmatic, then you are also, to be fair.

And lastly, I know you ask me to cite Scripture for my thinking. I would if I were beginning a thread on this topic, but Scriptures have been thrown around on this thread repeatedly. For me, when someone explains their belief on a topic, I take it up my self to search the Scriptures to see if what one says aligns with what God has revealed. I urge you and others to do the same. There are so many Scriptures that say that people will be raised on the "last day" and that Jesus returns after the tribulation.

John 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24 are but a few. Also Job 19:25 Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27----therefore the rapture does not happen before the tribulation. All believers are gathered to Christ after the tribulation when they are either resurrected or translated into their glorified bodies.

Hello Texsis. I was wondering this week how you are doing.

Hello David, I included Mr. Camping because he repeatedly set dates for Christ's return and they failed. So , to me that is a false teacher. I can say that I do not know more about him. So, thanks for the info.

Look at Luke 15:17-20 and remember this statement

When we are down to nothing, God is up to something!

Thanks brother Giannis. Thanks for the clarification on this matter. Very helpful.

Just one other thing you mentioned, "when we say that the Spirit goes away with the church we don't really mean that the Spirit goes, this can not occur since the Spirit fills the universe, but we mean that the specific ministry of the Spirit in the church as a guide, a helper etc pauses to exist."

Would you be stating here, that at the Church's Rapture, the Holy Spirit still 'continues' on in the Earth & affecting the hearts of men as He did pre-Rapture? This is worth considering as I've tended to follow the line, 'that if the Church goes, then the Holy Spirit must go as well, as it was for this reason alone that He was sent by Jesus to seal, baptize & fill the believer'. John 14:16,17 & John 16:7 seems to indicate that the reason for the sending of the Holy Spirit was for the Church's inception & existence. That through the Church, the Gospel would go out, the testimony of Jesus would be manifest, & the forces of darkness would be held at bay.

In the OT, the prophets & those of God's people were inspired or energized to utter God's Message, but the Spirit was not given as He has come now to dwell in the Church (of people, not building). Therefore, the Spirit's coming is for the Church, & through her He will reprove the unbelieving world "of sin, and of righteous, & and of judgement". If then the Church is removed prior to the Great Tribulation, what would be the need of the Holy Spirit in the World? The reason He was sent, was for the Church & their testimony & the reason for His departure was for the 'god of this world' to have free course without anymore restraint; justifying the full Wrath of God to fall on all who reject Him. Would there be any Scripture or reasoning from the Scriptures, to show that the Spirit must continue here, after the Church is gone? I'd be interested to think deeper on this. Blessings.

Here's one of many verses in the old testament that suggests a 1000 year reign here on earth.

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

God night.

And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

GiGi,

I would not include Harold Camping in your list. I listened to Family Radio and Mr. Camping for several years. He was certainly wrong about setting a specific date for Judgement Day and came to recant of the idea that we could know the day.

But he was very accurate in many of the his teaching and particularly in his approach to interpreting the Bible. He was always Vehemently opposed to any extra-biblical revelation of any kind whatsoever. And constantly taught that the Bible alone and in its entirety is the only word of God and is to be our ultimate authority. He was a faithful Bible teacher and corrected several of his teachings over time as he continued to search the scriptures.

Many regard him as a false prophet particularly those that remain in the churches. I absolutely do not. But he was not infallible as no Bible teacher is.

I pray for all to research 'Blacks LAW' & 'Bill of Rights'. Lord allow it to inlighten everyone in your truth as they read & grow wiser which inturn will save them thousands of dollars a year. In Jesus name, Amen. For if any app or site is true to His word, (especially Christian sites & apps) they will support you in your search & not hide things from you. God be w/each & everyone in these trying times.!

David0920 Thats a good point David, that is the truth! Also any verse that speaks of Jesus coming in the clouds is the resurrection, or what's called the rapture.

Hi Gigi, Thanks for your reply.

I was responding to you saying

"You do not think that 1 Thessalonians 4 passage speaks of the rapture".

That's why I gave you 1Thessalonians 4:16-17.

I am very surprised that you hold such dogmatic eschatology views and did not know that is where we get the Rapture verse from.

And yes Gigi, You are right in that Salvation is a far more important topic. But the door is now open on eschatology and I haven't read hardly any of the replies and I believe it is profitable.

I did get your rebuttal with kindness.

Thank you.

I will give You some answers and questions with kindness,

Maybe you can help me understand your viewpoint by way of scripture.

Post-trib has several viewpoints.

Some put the rapture after the tribulation but before the day if the Lord.

I've seen you reply the rapture comes at the end of the world. forgive me if I sound confused but you don't give a breakdown chronologically or scriptures.

Eschatology covers a lot of scripture. You can't hang a doctrine on a single verse.

We're not trying to push our viewpoint but with the use of scripture let's give the reason we hold our it.

Thanks in advance and God bless.

David, Agreed. We need to be very wary of anyone who claims to have revelation outside of Scriptures, especially if these words and ideas are at variance with what has already been revealed in Scripture. We also need to be wary of the religious sects that emerged as a result of people who supposedly received visitations, visions, and audible words from God. In the past few hundred years there have been plenty of these.

I can name some here to warn others:

Joseph Smith (Mormonism), Charles Taze Russell (Jehovah's Witnesses), Ellen White (Seventh Day Adventists); Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Scientists), Amy Semple McPherson (Four Square Gospel), E.W. Kenyon (Theosophist, Meta-physicist), William Branham (Pentecostal Healing, Latter Day Rain, Manifest Sons of God, New Breed, One New Man, New Apostolic Reformation), Earl Paulk, Oral Roberts (Healing) Harold Camping (False prophecies), C. Peter Wagner, (false prophet) to name a few.

Perhaps it is good for believers to check out many of the people who have been part of the prophetic, charismatic, pentecostal, Signs and Wonders movements of the past 200 years. This can be eye opening and lead believers to come to reject the teachings, written books, etc. of such false teachers and also the movements, sects, they founded.

I am not trying to beat up on anyone or any one group in particular. It is just those in these groups have produced so much of the error in the church today.

Chris Thank you for your reply. You think the Last days started 2000 years ago? In 2.Tim.3:1-4 we are told how people will be in the last days. Do you think these verses are meaning the last 2000 years, or the time period just before the return of Jesus? Many scriptures can have a double meaning as you know Chris, for that present time, and also have a prophetic meaning for another time period. You also said those who were sealed in Eph.1:13 are not the same as those who are sealed in Rev.7:3-4? You could be right on that Chris. But then again you could be wrong. You did say in a previous comment those saved during the great tribulation would only have the Word of God, didn't you? In Eph.1:13 It says "In whom ye also trusted, after that ((ye heard the word of truth)), the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." These had to hear the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation before they believed, (THEN) they were sealed with the Holy Spirit. That could be the same Chris. Now to move to the marriage of the Lamb. You say its not a critical matter of teaching, especially in this subject we've been discussing, of the rapture and the great tribulation? I would have to disagree Chris and here's why. We have to see a timeline from our interpretation of the Lastdays, or if you want to call it the Endtimes, scriptures. Many scriptures are prophecy for the time period just before the return of Jesus Christ. The marriage of the Lamb could only happen (when keeping verses in context) at the same time the wrath of God is being poured out on those left on the earth. When the marriage supper ends and Christ returns riding a white horse it ends the wrath of God and starts His 1000 year reign on the earth. Read Rev.19:7-15 The marriage supper, The return riding a white horse to the earth, v.15 He treadeth, (puts down) or ends the wrath of GOD. It is the timeline when kept in context! Thank you again Chris.

Greetings and hello in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ! Requesting prayer for two friends and myself! First, my friend Jenny is requesting prayer for her heart has swelling of the left ventricle along with low blood pressure, heart flutters with catching her breath! Her lab reports did not come back normal as her iron, hematocrit, etc. were higher than normal! Jenny requests prayer for her healing with mind, body, and soul!! She loves the Lord and seeks prayer in these areas as her job is very stressful!!

Next, my friend Candy is requesting prayer for her son and granddaughter as these individuals are looking to have surgery for sex change with her son becoming a female and her granddaughter taking sex drugs to become a male as she is only 15 years old!! Her son was raised in church and has turned away from God and His Ways! Had been a believer but sadly felt that the world offers more for him. Her granddaughter does not attend church as she does not know how much God truly loves her! How she needs to hear the Gospel message of love and forgiveness that Salvation brings from Christ! Candy is requesting prayer for her family's healing and restoration and salvation through Christ Jesus! How these individuals are being lied to and deceived from the father of all lies! Lastly, requesting prayer for myself as I am facing a financial hardship with needing brakes, tires and cooling system and transmission service needing to be done on my vehicle as I cannot afford to have these services done! I am also waiting for Social Security SSI hearing to receive benefits as I was denied in November of 2021! With the high cost of food, gasoline, etc. these necessities have risen to such high costs that I cannot even afford much as my income is under $12,000.00 a year! I am seeking prayer for a miracle for my finances! My health has improved over the year as I am prediabetic and Praise God my lab work came back better than previously before! God has brought healing to me! Thanks

Thank you for responding GiGi.

The biggest difference that you cite is, of course, the nature of God's judgment on the unsaved.

Your understanding reflects the understanding and teaching of essentially every church and denomination throughout the church age. And when I was in the church, I did not question that understanding either. I have quite recently come to believe otherwise, and will provide what I believe to be some scriptural proof in future postings.

I believe that Hellmin the Bible refers to the grave. And I believe God's punishment for sin is death. That is both physical death. And the death of our soul. It is not a death of eternal suffering as the church has taught. It is annihilation. And I understand that is heretical to what we have been taught in the churches and what most believe. I am only going to present a passage here that you and others may want to ponder. It is a Law that God lays down in Deuteronomy 25.

Deuteronomy 25:1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.

Deuteronomy 25:2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.

Deuteronomy 25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.

God is declaring here that there is a limit to punishment that mankind is to observe. And God not only requires mankind to obey this law. But God himself is bound by this law, as he has not repealed it anywhere in the Bible, that I am aware of.

More on this later, as I have run out of room here.

Let me just say that this is an example of the incredible mercy of God.

Very true Sixten Alin.

Hello Freda, I will pray for this.

Just know that Disability does not pay much more that what your normal Social Security amount will be. So, please check into this because it may not be enough for you to meet all of your monthly needs at this time in your life. If your job pays more, perhaps that may be the best unless you are very close to retirement age. The more wages you earn the more your Social Security you will receive when you reach retirement age.

Even so, I will keep your requests in my prayers. You have been through so much. It must be hard and so stressful besides all of the pain.

Yep, David. I am glad you reminded me of these statements in John 6.

David, oops, ran out of room...

The destruction of Jerusalem was the definitive action of God to show the Jews that, whether they like it or not, the Levitical sacrificial system was ended. Whether they accept Jesus or not, any animal sacrifice or offering according to the Levitical laws were not longer acceptable to God, since Jesus fulfilled all of these means of forgiveness of sins infinitely in the shedding of His blood and the giving of His sinless life for the sins of mankind.

The "specialness" of the Jews was also ended in that in Jesus both Jew and Gentile are chosen by God as His elect royal priesthood and princes with Jesus as our eternal High Priest. (as it says in Hebrews). It is true that the nation of Israel was chosen in OT times to be the means through which God brings forth the Messiah, but once Messiah came (Jesus) their special purpose was finished. We are all now equally elect of God.

I have always thought it strange that the Jews have been so sure of their "specialness" but do not seem to esteem the Israelites of the the other tribes as equally as "special". It is as if they have denounced their own brethren. There are millions of millions of Israelites scattered among the nations of the world along with millions of Jews, too. The Israelites of the other tribes most likely do not know their ancient heritage as they mixed their genes with the gene pool of all the surrounding nations through intermarriage.

But the Jews, who were in captivity for a much shorter amount of time, kept their gene pool more separate from the other nations and continued to practice the Judaism that came out of the Babylonian exile (which was very different from the religion and culture of the Israelites that entered the promised land with Joshua after being freed from Egypt, covenanting with YHWH on Mt. Sinai, and wandered in the desert for 40 years.

I do not believe as the Dispensationalists do concerning Israel and the church.

Dear David, I do agree with much of what you say but differ in these ways:

Our physical bodies will be resurrected and then transformed into the bodies we will have for eternity. These bodies will be like Jesus' resurrected body, tangible, flesh and bones bodies that cannot decay, die, or possess any aspect of sin. These bodies are spiritual in that they are animated by the Holy Spirit and governed by Him. Our present bodies are carnal in that they are animated by the laws of nature and are governed by the sinful nature. I believe that Jesus is still fully human along with being fully God. He retains all of His humanity, body, soul, spirit as we will also.

I believe that unbelievers will be resurrected also in physical bodies of flesh and bones but they will not be transformed as ours are. They will be immortal, but will not be incorruptible and unable to sin like ours. These believers will live forever under the judgement of God in hell (the lake of fire) and the wrath of God will forever be upon them. I do not believe in annihilation as you do.

I am not sure about the resurrection and judgment happening at the same time for both believers and unbelievers, as in Revelation 20:5 it says that the unbelievers will not be resurrected one thousand years after the resurrection of the saints.

This seems to indicate a 1000 year reign of Jesus. But I think that this reign is in heaven. After that 1000 years, then the unjust will be resurrected and judged to spend eternity in the lake of fire with the devil, the fallen angels, and the Nephillum.

Like you, I believe that Jesus is not going to set up a kingdom on earth, nor will this kingdom be for Israel with a renewed Levitical system of sacrifices and offerings. That system was ended with Christ's death (the tearing of the curtain that separated people from the presence of God in the Holy of Holies) and was demolished in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. that made it so that there was not longer any temple

Mr. Spencer,

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (PRECEDED) them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Rapture can only occur at the time of the Resurrection. So when will the Resurrection occur? Read John 6

Four times in John 6 God declares the Resurrection is the Last Day. The Last Day is Judgment Day.

The Rapture, the Resurrection, and Judgment Day are the LAST DAY.

Chosen Child of God,

oops... ran out of room..... to pick up from where I left off....

..sent by both the Father and the Son. Jesus saying that "We" will make our home in believers speaking of the Spirit, the Father and Himself as plural ( John 14:23). At Jesus' baptism, Jesus was present in the water of the Jordan, the Father spoke from heaven, and the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus visibly. When Jesus prayed, He prayed to His Father and also the Holy Spirit resided in Jesus without measure. At the transfiguration, Jesus was present and also the Father spoke from heaven. Before Jesus ascended He breathed upon the disciples and said, "Receive ye the Holy Spirit (who was a separate Person than Jesus).

These recorded instances are strong Scriptural evidence that God is one Being who exists as three Persons. Not three different gods, but One True God and also three Persons in union with one another.

It is a mystery, but that does not mean it can be said to be untrue, only that we cannot understand this aspect of the One True God fully, but, instead, we believe what Scripture says by faith, not by sight or reason.

Dear, Chosen Child of God.

You are right to be wary of this woman.

She is a false teacher. I would advise you to end your interactions with her.

Every believer receives the Holy Spirit when we first believe. In fact, it is the Holy Spirit who works in us to regenerate us according to His wisdom and power. He also implants faith in use to be able to believe the Gospel. From our perspective it seems like we chose to believe, which saves us. But really it is all the work of God in us to bring us to believe-all a gift of grace.

The Holy Spirit also indwells us at conversion, connects us to the Father in right relationship, sets us within Jesus as a member of His body, and goes on to work holiness in us over the rest of our earthly life, which is sanctification.

I am glad that you are moving closer to God in your day to day life. I am 66 and have been a believer all of my life. Truly, your baptism at 12 was all you needed to obey the command of Jesus, but there is nothing in Scripture that prohibits a subsequent water baptism when one comes to have amore mature grasp on one's need for Jesus and understand more what one's conversion means.

The beliefs that we are to baptize only in Jesus' name; the rejection of the trinitarian nature of God, and that only those who speak in tongues have the Holy Spirit indwelling are all part of the Oneness Pentecostal sect, which is a very recently emerged sect from the past century that came from the turn of the century Pentecostalism of the early 1900's - 1930's. These teachings grouped together have not been taught until this time.

Paul warns us about anyone who preaches a different Gospel that what he preached, especially those who add something that is needed in addition to what was preached by him. Also, the "Oneness" of God doctrine that Donna brought up does not agree with what God revealed in the New Testament with Jesus being one with God, but also the Son of the Father, and the Holy Spirit, being God but being sent

Dear S. Spencer, thanks for your reply. I agree that believers will be "raptured" in the way described in Scripture.

But the Scriptures do not speak of a 'Secret' rapture, nor of a 'semi' coming before the second coming at the end of the age. Also, the Scriptures make it plain that ALL of the saints from the beginning of time until the end of history will be raised or translated. And, the Scriptures all describe this gathering of the saints unto Jesus as happening at the end of the time of tribulation.

I realize that we disagree as to the when. I will say that I am thoroughly convinced of my understanding on this. But it is fine for you to respond further. I just do not wish to go back and forth a lot on this subject. It has been one of the main topics on this forum lately and I do think that there are more important topics to discuss having to do with who God is, how we are saved, and what our life in Christ entails.

In Matthew and Mark Jesus's brothers are named. Also it has unknowned sisters. Can you tell me the verses concerning brothers and sisters?