All Discussion PAGE 518

Hi Gigi.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. is where supporters of Pre-trib, Mid-trib, and Post-trib get " Rapture" from.

16) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be "CAUGHT UP" together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

There's no questioning of the rapture between the 3 groups in verse 17.

The debate has always been when.

God bless.

Thank you GiGi for your prayers. Have a blessed evening

I need prayer for God to help me and my attorneys to win my disability case with Social Security due to the problems that I am having on the left side of my face & left eye from the two oral & maxillofacial surgeries, bone & skin graft surgeries of the right hip-right thigh-right lower leg in august and september 2022 . Thank you in advance for praying for me and with me. Have a blessed evening

Hi Gigi.

Thanks for responding.

I'm unable to engage at the moment.

I will soon be well rested and full throttle! I hope.

God bless you.

Hi Brother Chris.

No! It's my apologies Brother, I may have taken that wrong. I haven't been fully engage when reading or posting here over the last few weeks. And that's normally right at bed time around 8pm eastern.

I'm hoping to be able to share my thoughts after I settle down tonight or by this weekend.

God bless you Brother.

Hello Chris

Maybe I was not clear in my post.

Firstly the grk for "church" which is "ekklesia" is of feminine gender, in grk the church is a "she".

In 2 Thess 2:6 the word "to katechon" is written in the grk, it is translated in Engl. as "what withholdeth", it's exact meaning is "it that posseses" and it may imply "it that withholds/hinders". Iit is of neuter gender ( in grk the gender is obvious from the particle used, also from the spelling of the word).

In the following verse 2 Thess 2:7 the word "o katechon" is used instead. It is translated as " he who now letterth will let". It's exact meaning is " he who possesses or he who withholds/hinders". This time a masculine gender is used for the same thing that is also mentioned in the previous verse.

So 2 different genders are used for the same thing, "it" and "he". There is only one thing in the Bible that two genders are used for the same thing. It is the Holly Spirit, it is a spirit so it is "it", but also it is a person hence the "he".

Last, when we say that the Spirit goes away with the church we don't really mean that the Spirit goes, this can not occur since the Spirit fills the universe, but we mean that the specific ministry of the Spirit in the church as a guide, a helper etc pauses to exist. The Spirit came to the church on Pentecost and goes with the Rapture of the church . It is He who is going to resurrect our bodies and hand us to Jesus in the sky, Ephesians 4:30, "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." GBU

GBU

GiGi It does seem that the Holy Spirit would be present during great tribulation as Rev.ch.7:9,14 tells us a great multitude will be saved out of great tribulation. And v.17 tells us the Lamb shall feed them, and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. This feeding will be at the marriage supper of the Lamb. But when the wrath of God is poured out on the earth, Rev.15:8 tells us that no man is able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. This verse also says "And the temple was filled with smoke from the (glory) of God, and from his (power) Read Mt.24:30 Jesus comes in the clouds with (power) and great (glory) to gather together His elect. I see this verse also as meaning no one can be saved during the wrath of God until all 7 vials are poured out upon the earth. The Holy Spirit, nor any True Believers, will be present on the earth during the wrath of God being poured out. Jesus will come in the clouds for all True Believers "Immediately after the tribulation" Those Believers will be taken to the marriage supper of the Lamb, while the marriage supper is taking place in heaven the wrath of God is being poured out on the disobedient ones left on the earth, who were left just to face the wrath of Almighty God because they denied His Son. Then after this Jesus does return ((to the earth)) riding a white horse, with all True Believers riding white horses with Him, this will end the wrath of God and start the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ on the earth. Thank you GiGi for your reply, You will be Blessed for all your Prayers for other people. God Bless You.

Hello Patrick

I don't want to be offensive but sometimes christians can not distinguish between spiritual things and psychological things. Yes one can hear a demon speaking but this is extremely rare and not a continuous situation. Maybe instead of going to various churches, you should also think of going to a doctor and try to find out what happens to you. I believe that If that was a spiritual thing you would have been freed so far but you haven't. I think others must have told you that, that you should visit a doctor (a specific doctor) and this is also my advice to you. Try it, you have nothing to lose. GBU

Yes because that is Original.

See Reply comment Please @Donna Grace Re: Baptism Of Jesus and not as You stated of 3 Trinity caught me off guard. Never heard. Baptized 2x

Thank You By: ChosenChildofGod

I can't believe this question actually came up. I was told this last night for the 1st time Ever heard in my Life. Baptized at 12 in Baptist to again 2021 due to ongoing warefare generational etc. At 60 yrs old just felt need to do because so much changes to all the negative bad experiences home storms to ones coming around just robbed to even homeowners. Then Generational more. I have Always have carried Spirit to hear see to discernment now big time. This lady had blown me away telling me my sins weren't forgiven if not baptized in Jesus name. Said all had to do with Catholic we're demons. I'm so glad you posted this as I've wanted all day to ask someone. Thank You, Always a Christian more so than EVER SINCE 2020. KNOW I'M NOT SINNING KNOWINGLY REPENT DAILY BC NOT PERFECT. She's suppose to be Evagalist Apolitical? Just met? I'm drawn to Prophecies. Also told me if I didn't speak in tounges I couldn't have the Holy Spirit. Unbelievable

Hello GiGi,

I believe you are on the right track. Without getting into the scriptural proofs which I may do later, I firmly believe the Bible is teaching that....

Christ will return on the clouds of glory IMMEDIATLY after the Great Tribulation has ended and all of God's Elect (i.e. anyone from every nation throughout time that God plans to save) have been saved.

Christ will bring with him all who have been saved and have previously died physically and are currently living and reigning with Christ in heaven in their Resurrected Soul existence (there are a few that are there in their Resurrected spiritual bodies like Enoch, Moses, Elijah and a few that were resurrected when Christ was crucified). And their bodies will be resurrected a glorified spiritual body.

Those True Believers that are still living will be changed into their glorified spiritual bodies in the twinkling of an eye as they are Raptured, i.e. caught up to be with Christ in the air and every eye shall see them along with those that have returned with Christ.

This event will also usher in Judgment Day when the unsaved will experience God's Judgment and ultimately be eternally destroyed along with this sin cursed earth.

Christ will create New Heavens and a New Earth where all whom He has saved will live and reign with Him eternally as a complete personality in their glorified spiritual body and soul where sin will never again raise its ugly head.

So to summarize...The Resurrection, the Rapture and the beginning of Judgement Day are simultaneous events that will occur immediately after The Great Tribulation.

The idea of Christ returning to set up some kind of a physical kingdom on this sin cursed earth and a separate future salvation plan for Jews and Gentiles is absolutely contrary to what the Bible teaches. And in my opinion the reason that we have such divergent understandings of these events is a failure to apply the principles that God has laid down as to how we must interpret the Bible.

prayers for your health and hearing Gods voice.

Freda, I was thinking of you last night in my prayers. Thanks for the update. Glad that your palate is healing well without infection or return of the tumor. I will certainly pray for all you have requested here. May the Lord strengthen you today in His mighty power. Amen.

Dear Queen, that is a very good question.

We, as humans, can forgive one another without shedding our blood as a sacrifice for the sins of others to bring about forgiveness.

But we should understand that God' s holiness and righteousness far exceeds our own and the offense of even one sin is so great God that it involves the sinner being separated from God eternally unless atonement is made through the blood of His Son.

The blood of Jesus removes the infinite offense to God of even one sin, let alone the sins of the whole world for all time. We cannot compare God's requirements for forgiveness to man's.

We are sinners, God is pure and sinless. We have no sense of what His perfection is like. However, we are told that the plan of salvation was made even before anything was created. So, God's counsel is beyond us to know completely. But Scripture tells just that blood must be shed for sins to be forgiven and that the animal sacrifices of the OT are shadows pointing to the sacrifice of Jesus which is of infinite value compared to that of animals or of sinful mankind.

How precious is this sacrifice of Jesus, the shedding of His blood and the dying of His perfect body on the cross. His sacrifice has made a way for mankind to be reconciled back to God, turning away God's wrath from us and restoring us to God in Jesus' righteousness.

This is the way God has deemed as the only best way for our sins to be forgiven, not by sacrifices we make or offerings, or prayers or religious practices on our part, but only through the shed blood of Jesus unto His death for us.

Please pray for my mom Lorraine's salvation and pray for her healing. She lost her hearing, has memory loss, bad posture, body pain, and high blood pressure. Pray for excellent health. Pray for a long life for Lorraine.Pray for the removal of debt and financial blessings and financial security for Lorraine. Pray Lorraine's possessions last a hundred times longer and will supernaturally become newer and repaired. Also, please pray for salvation and excellent health and long life for my uncle Seve,aunt Jackie and Pray salvation, healing and long life for my mom's boyfriend Joe who has cancer.. In the name of Jesus Yeshua Hamashiach Amen . ... Please Pray GOD Blesses me with a life partner real soon in JESUS Name. I've been praying for this since 1995

Chris, I think you are splitting hairs here to support your theory of the Holy Spirit being removed when the church is raptured. I am not intending to offend you, but Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit regenerates and indwells every believer and that every believer is part of the church. Also, those who come believe during the tribulation are part of the church and filled with the Holy Spirit, therefore , the Spirit and the church is not removed prior to the tribulation. There is not mention at all of the rapture of some of the church. All of the church is gathered at Christ's second and final return on the Day of the Lord. After the saints of all ages are gathered to Jesus, the wrath of God is then poured out upon the earth by Jesus. This takes place after the tribulation.

Agreed, Chris

Yes, Donna, I believe that Jesus' words are the final authority for all believers and, although He was speaking to his disciples at this time, His instructions are to all who will be involved with making disciples and baptizing new converts, even to us. I do not subscribe to the theory of Mel8 that Jesus was speaking only to the apostles and therefore these instructions are not for us.

This is the teaching of dispensationalism that separates the gospels from Paul's epistles saying the gospels are for us but not to us because Jesus came for the Jews and spoke to the Jews, not us. This theory diminutizes Jesus and enlarges Paul as our teacher. But Jesus is our Lord and His words are Spirit and life. We are to listen to Him, as the Father said at His baptism and transfiguration. It is error to be so dismissive about the instructions of Jesus.

't sit w

Because dispensationalism teaches a distinct separation between Israel and the church, any Dispensationalist can chose to dismiss any part or the Scriptures as not being to them (nor applying to them) if it doesn't sit well with their mindset. This is a dangerous precedent to use concerning Scripture and erroneous at that.

For believers, Jesus should be exalted above all else, Paul included. His words and instructions should be heeded and obeyed, as Revelation 22:14 says, "Blessed are they who do His commandments." This is concerning all believers.

So, to dismiss what He commands concerning baptism in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and insist that baptism is to be done in only in the name of "Jesus" is error. And it is a recent error that came about from the Oneness Pentecostal stream that came about in the early part of 1900's denying the Trinity and adopting modalism (Also known as Sabellianism or Monarchism in the early centuries of the church which was refuted and deemed heresy in both cases). So the "Jesus" only movement is aberrant in their teaching.

What is the meaning of divers places?

Agreed, Jimbob

Hello S. Spencer

I do not think that 1 Thessalonians 4 passage speaks of the rapture, but of the 2nd coming of Jesus on the Day of the Lord. It says that this coming of Jesus (referred to as the Day of the Lord in chapter 5:1-2) will be with a shout and with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet. This is the last trump spoken of in Rev. 10:7: Rev. 11:15 and in 1 Cor. 15:52, and in Matt.24:31. These passages are all speaking of the final trumpet sounding at the return of Jesus AFTER the tribulation.

Those who espouse a pre trib "secret" rapture have to make assumptions about the Thess. passage to support this theory as it is not plainly taught in Scripture. But the second coming (not third) on the Day of the Lord and the gathering of His people is plainly taught. That is why I do not ascribe to the pre-trib rapture theory but to the "rapture" of the church at the end of this age at Jesus' second (and only return). The Scriptures do NOT speak of any coming between His ascension and His second coming (which would be His third coming according to pre-trib theory).

I believe Jesus is our greatest advocate for a life of peace and contentment. I feel the love of God and Jesus and the love of myself the most when I repent and improve my life. I am glad that Jesus and John the Baptist spoke about repentance when they first started teaching. I love repentance and true improvement and preparation for meeting God after this life.

Throughout the Old Testament and of the shadows of the Son of Man you will see that God had always ordained a plan of redemption to be made for mankind after the fall. This is why God would provide a lamb to be slain in Genesis when Abraham offered his son Isaac as a burnt offering. Or how Judah wanted to intercede for Benjamin's captivity in Egypt or even how Moses wanted to die for the children of Israel when they committed the grave sin of worshiping another god despite their recent commitment. God did not want man to suffer for another man, instead he sent his own begotten Son to intercede for us,

through the punishment and fulfillment of the cross and the judgment of sin, where he became sin for us. Now that it is done, God has completed His plan of salvation for us and all we have to do is believe; and this is his grace and the new covenant which is his body and his blood.

God had already shown Adam and Eve that when they were in their fallen state and were without the Spirit of God (for He had left the moment they sinned to eat the fruit), He clothed them when they were naked and provided for them. He had to kill animals and taught them and their generations that there is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood. For it is written in Leviticus 17:11; "For the life of the flesh is in the blood."

Now there is one whose life and blood is more precious than that of bulls and goats; which is he who is life itself: Jesus Christ, and the sacrifice that was made, is made once and lasts forever, and there shall be no more need or time when a new sacrifice needs to be made. Jesus had come in the flesh to tell us these things, to tell us the truth about him because he and the Father are one and he came to show us the Father himself. "Jesus answered: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

Hello Jimbob,

I do agree that the Holy Spirit will always be with each and every believer, indwelling them and working in them. Jesus said that He will be with us always, and He does this through the indwelling Holy Spirit. He will be with every believer even unto the end of the age. I do not think He is removed because God is every where present and active in our world. He will continue to be active through the tribulation.

I do not believe the restrainer is the Holy Spirit nor the church. Perhaps Michael is assigned by God to restrain Satan as the Scripture speak of Michael being the protector of God's people in Daniel and also one who contends with Satan in heaven before Satan is cast out of heaven and comes to earth in a rage (Revelations 12:9).

It seems, from the 2 Thessalonian passage, the church of Thessalonica knew whom was restraining Satan and about the coming of the lawless one. But we are not told what Paul had said to this church concerning this topic prior to writing this letter.

It seems from reading about Lucifer in the Isaiah passage that he was created with great beauty but we are not told that he was second in power next to God. But Michael seems to have been created with great power and is able to overcome Satan when there is a conflict, such as in Daniel and in Revelations and when he won over Satan for the body of Moses. So it makes sense that the restrainer is Michael as God appointed him to be the protector of His chosen people.

But the text does not identify the restrainer, so any attempts by us is truly speculation or assumption. Therefore we should be careful to not be closed to other ideas concerning this matter but eliminate possibilities by way of using the Scriptures to do so.

Good morning Nacol1900,

I likely will not continue this dialog because I'm have difficulty understanding what you are trying to communicate. The impression I get is that you believe God is still speaking to mankind outside of the Bible, perhaps in a dream or a vision or a voice or a tongue. And that you believe we are to understand what God is teaching primarily from these extra-biblical revelations. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It is true that God spoke directly to individuals beginning at creation until very early in the New Testament period. As He was doing this God was actually writing His Word, the Bible itself; communicating His plan for mankind and the world, establishing His Law, and presenting His Gospel which is God's Judgment upon all of mankind for sin (our disobedience to His Law) and His Mercy in Salvation for His Elect (His payment for their sin and the inheritance that awaits them).

Once God completed the Bible, any direct communication to individuals ceased. And God very clearly set forth the command that we are not to ADD TO nor TAKE AWAY FROM God's Word, the Bible ( Rev 22:18,19). And He specified very sever penalties if we violate that principle.

Therefore, The Bible ALONE and in its ENTIRITY is and remains God's only direct communication with mankind once the Bible was completed.

God does declare in the Bible that He will open our understanding of the Bible, in accordance with His will and on His timetable, as we read and study the Bible applying the principles that He has established in His Word, the Bible.

May that be so in your life by God's Mercy and in accordance with His sovereign will.

You will not go to hell if you trust God and what He has done for you. You see, God the Father sent his begotten Son who is Jesus Christ (also known as the Word) into the world so that he can receive it back. Jesus Christ was the lamb that was slain for the sins of mankind, which includes you and me; so that God's justice and God's wrath could be fulfilled. Jesus Christ lived a sinless life and knew no sin, but still became sin for us because in such a way God loves the world, so that he himself will receive punishment instead of us. Now that Jesus Christ is risen and proclaimed Lord according to his resurrection, it is known that he has victory over death and that all who believe in him will appear like him. If you believe that He died for your sins and shed His blood for your forgiveness, you are saved and adopted into God's family by the sealing of the Holy Spirit.

In this dispensation, known as the Church Age, it was revealed to Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, for it was the mystery that was not revealed to others beforehand. The Church is the body of Christ placed to be a light to the world until the day of the Lord; which is God's wrath during the seven year tribulation and his second part of the second coming at the battle of Armageddon.

God has placed every believer in his body, just as he is the head of the body, and every member is like its members, and he will never forsake them. This means that all those who believe today and are saved will never be forsaken, as Jesus himself said in John 10:28; "And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

In this way, you can be sure that if you have put your trust in Christ alone and in the work of salvation performed on Calvary's cross with His blood, you are saved and you will never perish.

Donna,

Jesus begins by saying, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations.



Now the word "go," and we hear this quoted often, but the word go in all of the manuscripts, it is not a command. It is actually what is called an Aorist Participle.



It's translated "After having gone." It is not a command to go. It's after having gone. And then the commandment is, disciple all nations. That is what the word "teach" means, disciple all nations.

Jesus said make disciples. He didn't say go make church members or Christians, but make disciples of Jesus Christ. There is only one kind of Christian and that's a disciple. If a person is a religious Christian, that's not true Christianity.



Then we have two what are called Modal Participles. These express what Jesus meant by disciple all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.



Now the reason why all three of the Godhead are mentioned here is because the Jews actually immersed or baptized three times. We do it once. But the Jews would dunk three times for baptism. They didn't know why they immersed the person three times.



But Jesus said when you immerse three times, one is in the name of the Father, one's in the name of the Son, and one's in the name of the Holy Spirit.



And guess who changed it? Constantine! Around 316 A.D., Constantine says that if that's the way the Jews do it, and if that is the way Jesus told them to do it, then we are only going to dunk once, just to be different.



So we dunk once in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And the Jews dunk three times.



But that's why Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is used here. When we go to the book of Acts, we see that they baptized in the name of Jesus.

So now we have got this "battle of the baptisms" going on. One is Jewish, and one is Gentile.

Hello GiGi. Thank you for continuing to pray for me. I have seen my dental doctor again on the 23rd of February. Everything inside my mouth looks good but I'm still having problems. The swelling on the left side of my face isn't going down fast enough. So I cant get anything else done until the swelling is gone away completely. I still cant eat solid foods, cant use drinking or eating utensils yet, still having problems with my right hip, still having left eye double vision problems, and very high medical debts that I cant pay for. I go back to work Monday, 6th of March and I need prayer for that. Im doing the best I can with God's help. Please continue to pray for me. Have a blessed day

Barbara, Hold on sister! Help is on the way! God has heard your prayer. He does love you, and JESUS does love you. Keep knocking on Heaven's door. Jesus WILL make a way for you and those precious children. Matthew 7:7-8. Keep crying out to Him.

I'm praying for you this morning. Heaven knows YOUR name!

Romans 3:23

Romans 10:9

Repentance is so important. Lay down everything you can think of that you know is sin. Ask God ( in Jesus mighty and powerful name ) to help you repent and forgive you. He will help you with all of these needs. And make up your mind that you're gonna live for Him no matter what comes your way. If you fall get back up again, this is a battle and you will get knocked down sometimes but don't stay down. His mercy is brand new every single morning so hit your Heavenly Father up first thing in the morning as soon as you open your eyes.Go and find a Bible teaching preaching church. James 5:16. Call on God,call on Jesus!

Much love to you sister. Jesus loves you.