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The Word of God teaches us in 1 Cor. 2:14 that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.
This is why those communicating their messages in this 'forum' so often use the word 'discerning' while the 'Word of God' is not of any private interpretation ( 2 Peter 1:20). This is why it also teaches; that anyone that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man ( 1 Cor. 2:15).
Please remember, the words from the 'Word of God' are according to the 'Spirit of Truth' ( John 14:17). Furthermore, the Spirit of truth cannot be received by this world ( John 14:17) as this whole world has been deceived ( Rev. 12:9).
May we suggest you search the words 'a world deceived' an learn how you may know the difference between the 'natural' and the 'spiritual' body ( 1 Cor. 15:44) and how and by whom this whole world has been deceived ( Rev. 12:9).
Seek, and ye shall find ( Matthew 7:7).
It is God's will for all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth ( 1 Timothy 2:4), but not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven ( Matthew 7:21).
Many will say unto me that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? ( Matthew 7:22).
And then will I profess unto them I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity ( Matthew 7:23). If you would like to know who by nature your Father is, may we suggest you read John 8::43-45.
Heavenly Father, today we come to You in the name of Jesus for the sake of Jean. We ask that You cover her with You protection and that she will get a good result from the doctor. We ask that You will assure her that You will be with her always and that she can lean on You in all things. We ask that You fill her with assurance of Your love and care for her. Amen.
Please know that feelings can be intense but temporary and things will change in time with each new day that brings a fresh new perspective. Please give yourself time, ok? Your future self will say thank you to your current self if you just hold off doing anything hastily. There is a light at the end of the tunnel that you probably just can't see yet. Know that if you are a follower of Christ and ask for forgiveness then He has forgiven you. No sin is too great (besides blasphemy). Allow yourself to feel forgiven by God and then work on forgiving yourself and learning from it and moving on. Stay in God's word to help keep you on track. God bless.
Galations 6:22 kjv; Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
But let me be clear so that there is no misunderstanding.
When God writes about a historical event, that record is absolutely true and trustworthily recorded the way it literally occurred. And we can learn some historical and moral and spiritual lessons from the event and the literal record itself without going any deeper.
However, we have not come to the ultimate truth that God is teaching in that record until we have uncovered the underlying Gospel message that God is teaching in the particulars of the event and the words and phrases that God has used to record that event.
And, most importantly, as we seek to uncover the underlying Gospel message by comparing scripture with scripture and allowing the Bible to be its own interpreter, our conclusions must harmonize with everything else the Bible declares about that aspect of the Gospel. As God declares the scriptures are "not subject to any private interpretation".
This is not easy to do and takes time and effort to "compare spiritual things with spiritual". And God Himself must open our spiritual eyes to give us understanding in accordance with His will and His time table.
Fortunately God had provided some to be teachers that have taken time and study to do their homework and guide us in this. Of which I most certainly do not claim to be one. But we must recognize that no teacher is infallible and we must check out what they are teaching by going back to the Bible again and again.
May God in His Mercy lead us into truth as we search the scriptures.
"I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."
The bible is precious n holy...but the book in the right hand of the father cd not be opened till the 7 seals were broken...Which are spritual seals not anything to do with literal seals....The writen word...Nothin availeth anything in Christ Jesus but a new Creature... Gal 6:15....Not circumcision nor uncircumcision but only by that New Creature...Which is our new innerman the H.G. That Child of Promise....A baby Christ in the spirit...She brought forth a manchild which is gonna rule all nations...Which is that spirit of truth that is gonna reprove the whole world of sin and righteousness, judgement.
Chris,
Thank you for responding.
What you are saying makes perfect sense if we were to approach the Bible as merely a collection of writings by different authors communicating to different audiences in there own words about what they understood God was teaching them and wanted them to communicate.
But that is NOT what the Bible is because that is NOT what the Bible declares itself to be. The Bible declares itself to be the very Word of God Himself. And that God Himself is the Word. We cannot separate the two. The mechanics of how God assured that the human scribes spoke and penned exactly the events and information, using exactly the phrases and words, in the original languages, that God desired is ultimately God's business. But we can know for a certainty that it is so because the Bible, the Word of God Himself, declares it to be so.
So therefore, when determining how we are to approach and interpret scripture, we MUST look to the Bible itself and ONLY to the Bible and to the ENTIRE Bible to instruct us. That is to define our Hermeneutic. And God has graciously accommodated us in this matter.
No one would dispute that we must use proper grammatical rules of the original languages as a start. But we must understand that the Bible is its own dictionary and its own interpreter because it ultimately has only ONE AUTHOR. God Himself. And God may and does use a word or a phrase in one part of the Bible to indicate how we He may be using it in other parts of the Bible. "Jerusalem" is a good example.
In my previous posts I have tried to point out some of the scriptures where God defines what our Hermeneutic should be.
We must keep in mind that God has given us the Bible, not as a history book, but to present HIS PLAN FOR MANKIND AND HIS CREATION. And to DEMONSTRATE HIS GLORY. To show us our relationship to God. To demonstrate His perfect Justice and unfathomable Mercy in Salvation. In other words. the GOSPEL
I share the above example from Paul to show what the correct understanding of the Bible is & what is the correct hermeneutics & exegesis to be employed. But if you believe that understanding the historical, grammatical, contextual aspect of Scripture is unimportant because that it undermines what God is trying to say, then I cannot accept that. I guess it comes down to how the biblical writers penned their works. I can't accept that they sat there with quill in hand, ink pot at their side, & waited for God to move their fingers according to His Words to them. These men loved their God & trusted Him to assist them bring out God's Message on paper/papyrus, etc, accurately as God directed. Were they devoid of mental acuity or lacking consciousness of the world around them, when they wrote? Did they need to question God, 'why am I writing this when I don't understand why I'm writing this?' What I'm saying, is that they were in full possession of their faculties & as they felt led to write (even the epistles that Paul wrote from prison), the Spirit of God filled their minds to pen those words. Nothing mysterious, nothing extraordinary - just men of God bringing God's Message, just as we might have today, with a pastor preparing his Lord's Day message, soaked in prayer & concern.
Now in the 21st Century, how should we understand those messages? Is it incorrect that we should desire to learn of the background of those accounts in the Bible? Or should we treat, for example, Nebuchadnezzar or Babylon as unimportant, & just seek to gain some deep spiritual insight & particularly find it in the NT to inspire us? I'm sorry, this type of reading & interpretation can only lead to greater error & further away from the Truth when the reason for the writing & its actual message is not taken literally & applied correctly. The NT writers knew this & if they found some deeper meaning, they never let on to their readers, nor to us.
Thanks David 0920 for your detailed explanation of your understanding. I wasn't quite sure of it from your initial & subsequent posts, therefore my continuing to pursue it so as to be sure.
Okay, now that I understand you, I can appreciate why you would find disagreement with my belief on correct biblical hermeneutics. First to your questions. Since you enquired of me those questions, I thought to myself, well how could you find answers to them yourself? Just as I cannot find any biblical instruction 'not to do any of those things you suggested', so to, I don't believe there's any instruction to do so. The reason we can find Scriptural support & understanding in the NT, is because those who know the Word can see the connections.
There are many things that we read in the OT that we can see fulfilled in the NT. You've suggested the sacrificial system & ceremonial laws; the account of Ruth, Esther & Job; and others. We can even see the Apostle Paul finding connection with Hagar of the OT to the NT (i.e. concerning the Law, Hagar was the bondwoman, representing the Covenant made at Mt. Sinai & bringing the Israelites into bondage to the Law). But the freewoman (Sarah) - the heavenly Jerusalem, was given by promise, that which gives us freedom from the bondage to the Law & liberty now in Christ ( Galatians 4:21-31)). Here, Paul gives us the correct way of reading, interpreting & applying these OT events to the NT Church. He saw that Ishmael's birth was according to the flesh ( Galatians 4:23), i.e. Abraham not holding onto God's Promise that one "that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir" ( Genesis 15:4); but Isaac's birth was according to God's Promise.
It is supposed to take 12 seconds to do. ALL the on line Bibles don't go by page number, they go by chapter and verse.
Thank you so much, God Bless you and yours
In Love and Light
Kathy
The only references I can think of that the Church can appoint as assistants, are found in Acts 6:1-6, where the apostles felt that their ministry was being diverted from the Word of God to looking after the physical needs of others (such as to the widows needing help). And the other mention of this type of ministry, which comes under the umbrella of 'deacon', or a part of the office of the 'diaconate', is found in 1 Timothy 3:8-13, concerning the character & Christian witness of those men so employed.
c. Matthew 24:29:31 does indeed show Jesus coming in the clouds as does 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17, but the difference is that in the Matthew verses, His descent is ultimately to come onto the Earth (His 2nd Coming) to gather His Elect to reign on Earth, but the 1 Thessalonian verses show the Church rising into the clouds to be with Christ, & not on the Earth. I guess that is why it is referred to as a 'harpazo', a snatching away of His Church, who is to be shielded from God's Wrath (Tribulation) falling on them. In His 2nd Coming, there is no 'harpazo', just a gathering together of the Elect. Revelation 19:11-21 speaks of what appears to be, Armageddon. This is Christ's 2nd Coming, for war, for collection of the Elect & the Marriage Supper on Earth. So yes, the Matthew 24 & Revelation 19 passages appear to be the same event, though the former speaks of His Coming & the latter giving more detail to His Person & that great final War.
Thanks again Jimbob, this discussion has been very fruitful & to also learn that a 'post-tribulation rapture' can actually apply to a 'post-trib/pre-Wrath' understanding (which is yours). I've always, maybe mistakenly, understood that the post-trib position required believers to not only experience the anti-Christ's reign of terror on them but also the full extent of God's tribulations/Wrath before they are gathered together for the Millennium rule of Christ. Hence my thought that yours was more a mid-trib one, or at least somewhere within the last three & half years of Daniel's last week of seven years. Blessings.
Acts 27 chapter. God bless us all with visdom and understanding, i pray for u friend.
b. Verses to show that God's Wrath is included in the (Great) Tribulation: I gave some in my last comment; but from Revelation chapters 6 to chapter 18 we read of the various Judgements of God (Seal, Trumpet, Bowl) & events during that time. I realize that some have attempted to place some of the earlier judgements into our present timeframe, but I won't go into that here. As well, 2 Thessalonians 2:6-9 speaks about the 'restrainer' who keeps the anti-Christ from appearing. If the Restrainer is God's Spirit as I hold to (or, as you believe, the two witnesses, & we can discuss this further), then this act of the restrainer's revelation assumes that God has commenced Earth's countdown, by now giving Satan, the anti-Christ & his side-kick, free reign on the Earth, when once the Spirit withheld Satan from having his full control over men. The Church, believers, their prayers, the Gospel's Power, & more, are Truths of the Presence & Working of the Holy Spirit. Then comes a sudden removal to allow anti-Christ (Satan incarnate) to gain full control. Therefore, I see that God's Wrath is already manifested by this act alone, which of course culminates in the final outpouring of His Wrath ( Matthew 24:29 cf Revelation 15 & 16). So, I do agree with you concerning the outpouring of God's Wrath in those last days of the Great Tribulation, but I see that it will have already begun when God determined to remove His Restrainer.
I agree Jimbob, our early Church teaching would normally have great influence on what we believe today (I first went to a Fellowship that preached almost weekly on Christ's coming/rapture, & the Pastor often said of himself, 'I won't see death because the Lord's coming is so near'). And we believed him & waited patiently for the Lord Jesus. He left this Earth over thirty years ago & still no rapture, so clearly his hope was certain but his assessment of the world's events & God's Timing were incorrect. So there's error to be noted. I believe that when I was saved much later in October 1979 (in my mid-20s), & then had a yearning to apply myself wholly to the reading & study of God's Word (even leaving paid employment to do this for six months), I had to also 'attempt' to cancel out what I was taught, but learn Truths from the Bible itself & then re-introduce those earlier teachings if I could now see them clearly in the Word. So, what I've written earlier to you in support of my belief is largely from the Scriptures I've considered & not from earlier exposure to this doctrine (in fact, some of these Scriptures weren't even addressed, if I remember correctly).
So, to your three questions:
a. I don't see Revelation 14:14-16 ("harvesting") as that of the Church's rapture. 'Jesus thrust in His sickle & the earth was reaped'. Then two angels appear (one with a sickle, the other having "power over fire"). Clearly, these angels were engaged with gathering the "clusters of the vine of the earth" to be cast into the "winepress of the wrath of God" (this might allude to the battle at Megiddo). So what happened when Jesus cast in His sickle? When the earth was "reaped", what took place? The possible answer is in Revelation 14:13, "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth..." (from henceforth). This is not the Church, but those who are martyred under & following (henceforth) from the beast's reign. I don't see a rapture in this passage.
Dear Heavenly Father we bring before You tonight the request of Kelsey's father. We ask You to prepare both Kelsey and her future husband for the life they will share in sacred marriage before You. We ask that You will cause them to meet in Your timing and the situation of Your choice. We ask that You implant in each of them the love that You would have them share together and develop this love in each of them separately before they marry and together after they are married. We ask that You will cause each one to seek You first and that they will desire to live out their marriage before You as the only One who can make their love be lasting and godly from the time they first meet until the end that You bring. We ask that You will help Kelsey and her future husband be made fit for one another and fit for marriage by the power of Your word revealed to them in Scripture. We pray that Kelsey and the man she is to marry be compatible with one another and forebearing of one another's faults, as none of us are perfect partners, but being imperfect, the opportunities are many where we need to love, forgive, and accept one another's weakness out of a desire to be merciful as You are merciful. We ask this of You Father, in the name of Your Son, Jesus. Amen
If we assume that most people on here mean well and wish to speak about what they know to be true then we can be open to listening. If we do not agree with what someone says, we can respond back or just let it go. Being prayerful is key in discerning if and how to respond. This site is a learning place for us. We learn about the Scriptures and God who inspired them. We learn from and about others. We also learn for and about ourselves as we consider the views of others. I try not to read too much into what somewhat writes, but wish to take posts at face value and believe that the person is being upfront and honest about what they think. I try to speak to what someone has stated and not to what I think is someone's motives or evaluate someone's spiritual walk. I pray for those I interact with on here and especially for the prayer requests of others.