All Discussion PAGE 939

Chris,

For sure, but we can always pray for others here and if someone presents a view that we think does not align with Scripture, then that is an opportunity for us to pray for that person specifically. Those who do not post have views that are unknown to us and we can certainly pray generally for everyone who reads a discussion, we just cannot be as specific as when someone posts. So, everyone is encouraged and welcomed to share their thoughts and beliefs here. There is a lot of love and concern here on this site and we all can feel valued by one another, in my opinion.

Exodus 24 continued. So, it seems that this pavement would be made of all the primary colors that would together make all the colors of the rainbow. It was clear and transparent, without blurring, flaw, or imperfection. How awesome that would be to behold! I wonder how it affected Aaron, his sons, and the 70 elders? I also wonder if the people below saw any of this.

It says "But YHWH did not lay His hand on these nobles (elders)". I think this means that He didn't slay or harm them for seeing this manifestation of Himself because he chose to reveal Himself this way, knowing what man can take of His glory and not be consumed. During this visitation of YHWH, the 74 ate and drank with God. Not that God ate and drank, but that the 74 had a ceremonial meal for the sealing of the covenant. The blood sprinkled on the altar symbolized God's oath and the sprinkled blood on the people symbolized the Israelites' oath concerning this new covenant.

Next, YHHW calls Moses and Joshua up further on the mountain to the cloud that surrounded the top of the mountain. I like how God said, Come up to me on the mountain. He says He will give Moses tablets of stone that have the law and commandments that God Himself had written on the stone tablets. Moses is instructed to teach these to the people. Moses told the elders, Aaron and Aaron's sons to stay where they are and be regents (leaders and judges in Moses' stead for the Israelites.

The glory of the YHWH rested upon Mt. Sinai, covering the mountain for six days. Perhaps Moses went up the mountain on the first day of the week and on the seventh day (the Sabbath) YHWH to Moses out of the cloud.

It says that the sight of the glory of God was like a consuming fire for the Israelites below. Moses went into the cloud and was there for 40 days and 40 nights with YHWH.

Thus ends this chapter, leaving us in suspense! These people experience so many amazing things with YHWH. Surely this experience would be life changing!, But we shall see.

Trying to learn God's will for me and God's giving gifts

Exodus 24 continued...

I guess I had never thought of the blood of Jesus going two ways like this. After Moses sprinkled the blood on the altar He read the covenant that he had written down to the Israelites. Again, the Israelites said in unison that they would do all that YHWH had said to be obedient to the covenant (and Him). Then , after the people consented to the covenant, he sprinkled the blood on the Israelites. Interesting how Moses says This is the blood of the covenant which the LORD has made with you according to these words is so similar to what Jesus said at the Last Supper concerning the New Covenant of His shed blood for us.

So both parties of the covenant had assented to the covenant with Moses being the mediator, just like Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant between YHWH and mankind.

After this. Moses took Aaron, Aaron's sons and 70 elders up the mountain as YHWH had instructed him to do. And when they had gone up the mountain as far as YHWH had instructed it says that they saw the God of Israel. Now I do not think that they saw him face to face (which I believe means in all of His glory or the completeness of His essence) because no man can see God face to face and live. It is said that Jesus is the only One who has seen God face to face and He lived because He is the eternal Son of God and saw Him face to face eternally prior to his incarnation. Likely, these people saw aspects of God's glory that God knew would not slay them. So, the text describes what they saw. It is not very detailed, but I think that God showed just enough of his glory to convince them that YHWH was indeed there, but not enough for them to be able to create an image of Him to be worshipped.

The pavement under God's feet was like sapphire. I read up on this and I learned that sapphire, ruby, and topaz are all of the same genus. Sapphire can be blue to green, rubies are red, and topaz is yellow. rainbow (just like it says in Revelations).

..continued

Moses had gone up the mountain to be with YHWH and hear from Him. From chapter 20 (the giving of the 10 commandments) through this chapter God had been speaking to Moses on the mountain the laws/covenant and Moses has gone down to tell the people what YHWH said to them and what they were to do in obedience to YHWH.

In chapter 24, God tells Moses to bring Aaron, Aaron's sons, Nadab and Abihu, and 70 elders, but specifies that Moses is the only one who will come near to YHWH. the other 73 are to worship YHWH on the mountain from afar. So perhaps they were midway up the mountain and the rest of the Israelites were before the mountain, but not on it.

Before the 74 went up the mountain (Vs. 1-2) Moses went down and told the people all the words and judgments YHWH had given to them via Moses. And all the people responded together as if one voice vowing to do all that YHWH has said for them to do.

Then Moses wrote down all that YHWH had told him on the mountain. I am sure YHWH helped Moses remember everything accurately.

The next morning, early, Moses built an altar at the base of the mountain and also arranged twelve stone pillars (I assume near the altar). The altar represented YHWH and the pillars represented all of Israelite (the 12 tribes). Then Moses sent young men to get livestock to offer burnt offerings and peace offerings to YHWH. The text mentions oxen as being sacrificed. It doesn't say where the sacrifices were done, but apparently not on the altar, perhaps there was a nearby place to slaughter the animals and burn them.

Next, Moses took half the blood and sprinkled it on the altar to YHWH and the other half of the blood he sprinkled on the people.

This is how this covenant was sealed, by blood. The blood sprinkled on the altar was towards YHWH to propitiate the sins of the people and the blood sprinkled on the people was for them to be made partakers of the covenant being recipients of the effects of the blood. Same as with Jesus.

What is the rapture and did it occur before our street the tribulation

Churches should have some structure through the authority of Pastors and Elders. Nonetheless, any laypeople that have doctrinally sound ideas that wish to start a prayer meeting on a more regular basis; begin street evangelism; small groups; discipling and other such activities whether in their homes or in the church building shouldn't be prevented from doing such things and likely would be supported by many pastors.

Traditionally, preachers such as Whitfield; the Wesleys; Moody and other notable figures would interchangeably preach out in the open air and with large congregations. Whitfield in particular would spend hours in prayer often in tears before his outrach. Would it be that we find churches such as in the New York businessman's revival that would meet every DAY at noon for prayer.

Today; of course we see many mega churches that are better off NOT preaching their compromised and often deadly doctrines. Still; there are some who perhaps are a bit off on some things but are not caught up in the limelight of publicity who would visit the orphans and widows; feed the poor; and invite the lame and blind to a meal (or send food to them under the bridges like a friend of mine). There aren't too many cooperative churches that go out witnessing or try to start a revival. I do know of one church in Pittsburgh that supports ministry at an inner city more poor area in reaching out to the community. I also have brothers that I know that regularly street witness; but that is confined to one church in the aforementioned city. It seems even less of this goes on since COVID.

Having the guts to preach and be persecuted for His name's sake is rare today. There are always those who like to shout and make people angry; or those who don't want to challenge people or assume that everyone wants the love of God. Unless the true "grace" gospel is preached that all we can offer is a broken and contrite heart and we have no good within us ( Psalm 51)

don't bother

Godly sorrow leads to repentance; worldly sorrow to death. ( 2 Cor. 7:10). Note that it also leads to salvation and no regret.

This is illustrated with Peter who clearly knew Christ; but he in a sense had to be "converted" ( Luke 22:32) from the mindset of his old nature. This would be accomplished after the Resurrection and confirmed by the questioning of Christ as to whether he loved Him and the prophesied death for Christ that he would have to endure in the future ( John 21:18).

Judas Iscariot was only sorry for the consequences of what he did and still only saw Christ as the world did; a good man. Satan had held him for years with his greed and of course he betrayed Christ for a pittance: 30 pieces of silver. This suicidal mindset was probably a result of Satan's hypnotic pull suddenly ending; perhaps when whatever human conscience he had finally recovered. There was never any recognition given of Christ's Holiness nor was Judas ever rebuked by Him as Peter often was and no doubt everyone else. He "rebukes all those He loves" ( Rev. 3:19). Even though the other disciples ran away they still stayed from afar to witness what was happening. Judas couldn't face that. It is tragic that he could get to see the Resurrection 3 days later. He only faced an end to all meaningful existence in his mind; not realizing that he then should have sought repentance and a right standing with God. It is the sin nature which is the root cause; and we need to be Born Again to put our old self to death.

Galatians 5:4 discusses "falling from grace" in terms of attempting to follow the law again and whoever breaks it is accursed; where anyone who breaks the law even in one area according to James 2:10 breaks it all. Falling from grace would mean once trusting in grace then going back to the law; hence never really having a salvation experience where we are enlightened to grace being needed and our own helpless ability to follow the Lord. (see Romans 8:5-8).

God has shown me two baby angels while i was at work; when God shows u angels, is it a sign of his approval or a warning and the angels were smiling , my bus helper never heard anything nor saw anything. is this a sign? this actually happen seven to eight years ago iam a school bus driverand no one saw or heard anything i was on my bus dropping off kids.this really happen

Unspokens - Suddenlies & Miracles - Government

Hey Giannis,

I'm probably older but I am not tired, ha ha. I have enjoyed our conversation but looks like we come to a point we are not going to agree. That is ok, I felt I listed scripture that went with my understanding. Just one or two more things and it is ok if you don't reply, and I do not mean anything about not replying.

The thief hanging next to Jesus that asked Jesus to remember him when He come into His kingdom. First punctuation was not used and depending on the comma would change what was said. I say unto you, Today or I say unto you today, another question, why capitalize the t in today after a comma?

If Jesus and the thief went to heaven that day, why did Jesus tell Mary do not touch me for I have not ascended to my Father in John 20:17? Three days later. He ascended and presented Himself to His Father as the Firstfruits of those who slept and then returned. This was the same time the Priest waved the sheaf of the Firstfruits to be accepted by God before they could partake of the first harvest, the same with Jesus He could not be touched until He presented Himself to God.

The Old Testament is all the early church had and if we claim that all Scripture is inspired by God if what is said in the old should not change in the new. The definition of death in the old is the same in the new, the new cannot contradict the old if both are inspired by God.

The spirit is what goes back to God, without the spirit we are dead, in scripture it is called sleep. No spirit no breath and no more communication with God. The soul is us and is buried in death until resurrection.

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body"

I have enjoyed this.

God bless,

RLW.

Thank you GiGi. I fully agree; if one presents a comment here, it should be done with the expectation that it will provoke someone else to give a response. And when, what I believe is a critical doctrine that comes up, all the more reason for multiple emotion-charged responses to flood in.

What I am still trying to figure out, is the deathly silence that permeates when a verse is presented that should cause one to think further & reassess one's long-held beliefs. Even an ' I'll check this out with my pastor/elder & get back to you ' can give me some hope that something more meaningful will develop. But instead, a tenacious grip on a belief that fails to take other Scriptures to account, can make any hope of a useful discussion fall flat.

Actually, the bible does tell us when Satan lost his position in Heaven.

The passage says king of Tyrus, but he was never a covering cherub. This is about Satan (Lucifer).

Some say that Satan was an angel, but no where in the KJV does it say that. He was a cherub.

Ezk 28:

[12] Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

[13] Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

[14] Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

[15] Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

[16] By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

[17] Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

God will bring revival in His timing and under circumstances He has willed since before the creation of the world. We should be open and faithful to the workings of the Holy Spirit in our midst, our communities, in our nation, and in our world as He prepares people for such a revival. When we see the grains of wheat become ready for harvest, then revival can come and a harvest of souls will be brought into the body of Christ. I do pray for revival often. I want there to be such a heaviness on unbelievers being under the conviction of the Holy Spirit that they will be begging believers to show them how to be saved! Wouldn't that be wonderful to be part of this? I think so. We need to know how we will answer these people who are "revived" by the Holy Spirit. We need to study to show ourselves approved and hold out the Word of Truth to them, not a self-help affinity group, or MOPS group, or men's basketball team. We need to get our priorities straight. We can still have these things, but we need to put more time into knowing the Word, speaking the Word to one another, and living the Word in everyday life.

Isaiah 14 and Ezekial 28 tell about the fall of Satan (also known as Lucifer).

Lucifer was known as the son of the morning in Isa 14, but most bibles change the diety of Christ and give it to Lucifer by saying that Lucifer was the morning star.

Isa.14 :[12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Jesus is the only morning star in the bible according to the KJV.

Rev.22: [16] I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Hi Doug, I am familiar with that verse. I just went and re-read that portion of Scripture (vs.22-36) and after Peter quoted Psalm 110:1 in vs. 34-35 saying that David did not ascend into the heavens (but Jesus did) so DAvid was not speaking about himself in this Psalm. It is the eternal Father speaking to the eternal Son - YHWH speaking to Adonai. And than in vs. 36 peter says that God -El- has made Jesus both Lord (Adonai) and Christ (Messiah). So, I think that this whole discourse by Peter is being brought to a culmination point in verse 36, and the next verses tell us that the people were cut to the heart and asked "What shall we do to be saved" And Peter says, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins." Only God can forgive sins, so to direct people to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (Messiah) is to attest that it is He (Jesus who forgives their sins.

So, instead of this passage showing Jesus as just a man, it shows that He is, indeed, man, but also Lord, (Adonai) thereforem divine.

Robert,

John wanted people to repent of their sins and prepare their hearts to receive the Messiah, whom John knew was alive at that time and that he, himself was called by God from infancy to be the prophet that prepared the way for the Messiah. He prepared the way by calling people to repent and be baptized and then pointed to Jesus after Jesus was baptized and said, "Behold the Lamb of

God that takes away the sins of the world." He was told by God that the Messiah would come to be baptized and that upon being baptized God would speak from heaven and the Holy Spirit would come upon the Messiah. When this happened with Jesus' baptism, John then knew who the Messiah was-his very cousin! John must have known something ahead of this because he told Jesus that Jesus should be baptizing him, not the other way around. So, John was listening to God and seeking to know whom he was to announce, and God inform him concerning the Messiah both before Jesus came to be baptized and after Jesus was baptized. Therefore, John announced that Jesus was the long awaited Messiah.

Agreed, Chris, this is why we enter these discussions. These are not verbal battles, but worthy discourses on very important matters. Some people do well in such discussions, but others may be more fragile. We want to be sensitive to them, as you are. But I think that to enter into a discussion, say your piece, and then ask that no one respond is probably not an indicator of being more fragile.

Regardless, as you and others have demonstrated time and again, we participate in civil discourse here, being respectful of others' contributions, but also speaking strongly to matters that are very crucial to us, disagreeing when we sense something is in error, and holding out the Word of Truth as our standard, rule, and guide.

is jesus literally davids son

You may not see my reply Grae, since you're done here, but will just add this: that no one believing in the fully Deity of Christ can leave this important subject without proving it with all that has been given us in the Word. For me, & not enforcing this on anyone else, my salvation wholly depends on this Truth, or else my salvation is spurious, calling on and believing in another Jesus. Hence, the weight this subject carries is tremendous & comes to us from the Word as the most vital doctrine that we must understand & depend on. Blessings.

John Something to consider is the bible is an eastern book with eastern thought, the reason I mention this is the word

spread that Jesus Christ was a holy Man. Now even to this day in the middle east a holy mans spittle is believed to have

healing power so the times when Jesus Christ used spittle was because God told him to. If someone was not healed

immediately it had nothing to do with gods power it had everything to do with the unbelief he was surrounded by. When he

raised lazarus from the dead nobody believed he was going to do it that's why he wept and also that's why he said out loud

I know my father always hears me and then said out loud Lazarus come forth. Nothing has changed people still don't believe

God can move that big.

Act 20 doses talk about the human race in some of it teaching.and is the real writer apostle Paul for Dr. Luke

Hey Lorraine,

Scripture does not tell us when Satan rebelled and lost his rank, when Jesus said I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven, Luke 10:18, Scripture does tell us when he will be cast down permanently with no more access to heaven. He still has access because he is the accuser. When he will be cast out forever is in the future, that starts the tribulation that is coming.

Revelation 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

God bless,

RLW

Jackie In regards to attention getters heres a few scripture of what cut out of our lives and to sew into so to speak,

Romans 12 whole chapter what to do how to act. Phillipians 4:5-10 how to think, Clossians chapter 3 whole chapter

have fun.

Robert John the baptists came to prepare Gods chosen israels hearts to receive the word to come from jesus Christ,

also as jesus christ said to fulfill all righteousness. The law ended in practice with john the baptist that's why in

John 1:17 grace and truth came with Jesus christ. Also notice in Acts 1:5-8 john indeed baptized with water but incontrast

ye shall absolute tense be baptized with Holy spirit the lesser the law replaced by Grace via the spirit. The first one works

the second without merit cannot be earned through works must be believed by romans 10:9+10 God given then the works is

putting on the word mind and doing it.

Part 1

Dear Ronald, this conversation really gets very interesting. Both sides, we, have brought our points forward.

Whaw, many things to answer, I don't know where to start from.

a. Personally i don't rely much on verses in the Old Testament about life in Heaven since people's knowledge during those times about heavenly things and eternal life was very vague and limited. There was a progressive revelation about these things which was clarified and completed by Jesus in New Testament

b. In Acts 2"22-35 in verses 27 and 31 the word HADES is written in the greek text not HELL, actually everywhere where the greek text writes Hades the KJV Bible writes Hell, I don't know why because they are not really the same thing. I believe that Jesus' soul went to Hades in Abraham's bosom, that's why He said to that thief who was crucified next to Him that "today he would be with Him in Heaven". How do you explain that? If Jesus' soul was dead, how could the thief's soul be with Him in Heaven since they were both dead in the grave? In Acts 2"27 says "you will not abandon my soul in Hades". So God resurrected Jesus in the 3rd day, He didn't abandon Jesus in Hades.

The same in 1 Cor 15"55 "O death, where is thy sting? O Hades, where is thy victory?" is the proper translation. I have noticed that the KJV translates as grave almost everywhere where the greek writes death or Hades. Sometime I will make and post a list of all those.

c. Even if I accept the belief about an immortal spirit and mortal soul, this still doesn't explain how come Jesus went to the dead and preached the gospel to them. I think it is clear that Peter doesn't mean the spiritually dead but the physically dead people.Those verses, as you say, are hard to explain why, but it seems to me that Jesus gave a second opportunity to those who never heard of Him and the Gospel He preached(?)

to be cont..

Part 2

Ronald

d. My opinion about spirit, soul, body. The spirit is us, our personality, thoughts, emotions etc. The soul is where our spirit is placed/located. Spirit and soul are nseparable and immortal. The physical body is a vehicle that is used by our spirit/soul to live in this physical world and it is of course mortal. If soul and not spirit is us, then where is God's, angels', demons' personality/life/emotions are located since they don't have souls.

e. Now about ancient philosophy, yes there have been attemps from the very begining to compromise philosophy with christianity. But those attemps in the early times failed. Also attempts were made by the Gnostics (Eastern beliefs) to enter christianity. Gnosis in greek means Knowledge, so the gnostics were people that claimed that they had some kind of a deeper and mysterious knowledge that ordinary believers didn't have. But we know that Paul as well as the other apostles fought all these. Jesus in Revelation gives warnings to churches to avoid those. You are right about St Augustin and others in the 2nd and 3rd centuaries AD that made attempts to import philosophy into christianity but never really succeded. In contrast to those, christianity wrongly took many things from Judaism, like the priests and temples and all those things that are still present in Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

f. Acts 20:7-10 is about the story of that young man who was sleeping during Paul's teaching and fell down from the first floor dead. In verse 10 says "And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him." But the greek text says "soul" not 'Life". His soul was in him. Why? Was there a case that the soul would be out of him, if soul simply dies?

Many other things can be said, but I think I may have tired you.

God Blessings

Let us create..........

Grae I tend not get into dicussion which genders strife and no profit, also we are to speak the truth in love and

not to one up so I'm with you, its your priviledge to believe what you will and also mine. All I know in my personal

life as the scripture says I have had lots of scripturally based signs miracles and wonders. P.S. I believe jesus Christ

is Gods only begotten son, and I believe in God almighty and In His Gift Holy spirit and these three work together

as one to deliver mankind from the adversary Gods arch enemy.

Adam I am trying to be open about this subject. I was in church today and this passage opened. I never noticed it before. I wonder how many in this post has missed it too and never had a chance to ponder it. Acts 2:22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:" In controversial topics our minds run to the verses we already know and we try to keep convincing ourselves. I asked one of ministers if he noticed it. He didn't. He believes in the deity of Christ.