Bible Questions & Discussion PAGE 171

SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS: Unique to man

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. ( John 9:41).

In the Old Testament we see the mad Prophet Balaam stopped by a donkey who God readily used to block his way and for a mouthpiece of rebuke. ( 2 Peter 2:16-18 as quoted in the N.T. from Numbers 22-24). We see also how the demons Jesus cast out knew who Jesus was ( Mark 3:11-12). This is somewhat understandable from the fact that the angels were there to see God in heaven and witness the creation of the earth ( Job 38:7).

We are warned in James 2:19 about not just saying that we believe in God. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom; this is quoted many times in scripture. The conscience of men can be seared after some time; hearts hardened ( 1 Tim. 4:2; Exodus 7:3 and subsequent verses with Pharaoh). A believer has a healthy awe based on God's Holiness; and without holiness no man can see God ( Heb. 12:14).

Only man could see the miracles of Christ and still remain in unbelief. That would not just be related to the physical miracles when on earth; but also the miracle of salvation which often was accompanied by deliverance in scripture but which we see today. Mercifully God forgives any sin against the Father or Son is forgivable ( Matt. 12:32); but against the Holy Spirit is not.

The Spirit demonstrates His Holiness amongst the ministry of John 16:8 warning the world of sin; righteousness and judgment to come. The opposite of a broken and contrite heart is pride and self righteousness (only the sick need a physician Matt. 9:12).

Therefore such Pharisitical people also make their own twisted judgments on right and wrong and condemn others based on that mindset.

May we read scripture for its true meaning not through any man centered agenda; respecting ALL of it as God's Word ( 2 Tim. 3:16). May we have a heart to always glean new truths from God; seeking His face daily ( Psalm 1:2

Fulness of Christ (2 of 2)

1 Co.4:7

It is not of ourselves but according to, "the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:/ That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:/ In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:/ That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."(Ep.1:7-12)

Finally we should need have a sober mind to see truth as it is written in our inward parts lest we should forget ourselves. " For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:/ But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise." (1 Co.1:26-30)

Our glory is only in him who has made more than conquerors "through him that loved us.".(Ro.8:37) When God chose us He showed the world why."And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:/ That no flesh should glory in his presence./ But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Fulness of Christ (1of 2)

1 Co.4:7

"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?"

We are God's elect. When God framed the worlds by his word we were there in the divine Will. (He.11:3; Ro.8:33). God sent his Son to the world in the fulness of time he was in human likeness so each one of us may see him as in a glass. He was the visible image of God so in his divine will, we were given in his Son a place. This is one aspect of his fulness coming from his Being. He is holy so in terms of his name we have a name in his Son. God," who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ," called us "that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"(Ep.1:3-4)

Fulness of Christ is in terms of his obedience. He was his beloved Son in whom he was pleased. His holiness his brightness of glory clothed in a form so he felt hunger and thirst as everyone one of us, "but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." (He.4:15) We were of sinful flesh struggling under the law of Sin. But his perfection has had a great bearing on us past present and future. We who were condemned were justified or sanctified because of him. " For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."(He.10:14;Ro.8:1)

His fulness is established by his resurrection, "after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;"(He.10;12). In all these God revealed his grace towards us. "According to the riches of his grace;/ Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;" So we walk in faith and not by sight. It is His fulness we may see the role of the word of his power with which we are built up daily, as St Paul says, "and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified."(Ac.20:32; He.1:3)'

Page 2.

Re: Romans 11. Here too, I understand this passage differently. True, unbelieving Jews under the Law are also "under the curse" ( Galatians 3:10,11). And if they continued to place themselves under the Law, when that Law under that Covenant no longer existed (or, had become invalid), then they were doomed & cut out of the olive tree. There were still Jews that became believers ( Romans 11:5,7: the elect (Jews) had obtained salvation, along with the Gentiles who believed (also now the elect of God) & subsequently engrafted into the tree ( Romans 11:17-21)). So I believe that those who would not believe, received 'the spirit of blindness, deafness & slumber', but only temporary (v11), hopefully to be "provoked to jealousy", seeing the Gentiles have embraced the Messiah Whom they rejected & crucified.

But if the Law only 'matured', now to be embraced under the New Covenant, then the bindings & judgements of that Law must still weigh upon those in Christ. I see that there is more to the Old Law, than just a set of holy Commandments to be obeyed. It has to be cast off so that the one in Christ can truly come under the liberty & power that the Spirit gives. So the apostle could exclaim that he was now free from the law of sin & death, embracing the Law of the life-giving Spirit. If the old Law only 'matured' into the New, the full value of the New Covenant may be understood to be diminished.

And re: "fused together", I wasn't referring to the elect being fused together, but to the Law that was given under the Old Covenant to the Law under the New Covenant. But when the elect of Israel turn to the Lord, not only will the veil be taken away ( 2 Corinthians 3:16), but we, together with them can enjoy liberty in obedience to Christ; and particularly for the Jew, I would think that the transition would truly be liberating, giving the certainty & joy that the Law denied them. And we can see the emotion of Paul in his dealing with this subject in his letters.

Page 1.

Thanks for your explanation of 'abrogation' Daruled. Though I understand what you're writing, I still can't see how if 'you don't believe in it' (i.e. in this instance by my use of it), yet I can still "use it correctly". Therefore, Matthew 5:18 as you quoted, is of no problem to me as I read that Jesus was born "under the Law ( Galatians 4:4), to redeem them that were under the law" ( Galatians 4:5). He came as a Jew, abiding by the Laws & all the ceremonial requirements, as the Old Covenant was still in force. And as He said, "I am not come to destroy (the Law), but to fulfil"; His purpose was not to remove the Law but to fulfil its demands perfectly (and so He did in His Life & in His Death). He could not be accused to have broken any Law, even though the religious leaders had much to accuse Him of according to their interpretations & inclusions within the Law. They might even have thought of this Man, with this new teaching, as an opponent to 'their brand' of Laws & thus undermining their hypocritical regime. But Jesus said that the true Law's destruction wasn't His purpose of coming.

But when the Work at the Cross was fully accomplished, the Law that once only led to death giving no hope, was nailed to the Cross ( Colossians 2:14), thus bringing an end to both it & the Old Covenant under which it was enshrined. To Page 2.

Hi Daruled,

You don't accept somethings and leave the rest. It is whole or nothing. Faith is one. "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;/One Lord, one faith, one baptism,/One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all./But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ."Ep.4:4-7 So you do not take piecemeal of his Son. Ask and shall be given to you. Knock and you shall find. Pray that you find your answer from the word of God.

Jordyn,

Thank you for this discourse, for this is a great Love of mine, to talk about God. I would like to point out a few things; first, you said that Eve didn't deceive Adam, but I refer you to "And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?" Genesis 3:11 KJV "And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." Genesis 3:12 KJV. This isn't the response of a man choosing to stand with his wife, this is the response of a man who is trying to deflect blame from himself to another! Sadly I've been guilty of this type of behavior before, so I understand what it "looks like". I read 1 Tim. 2:14 differently, I see it as the apostle teaching that a woman has no right to teach a man nor exert authority over a man; not because they are "inferior" but because satan used Eve as an instrument that lead to Adam's transgression which in turn lead to mankind's transgression. To put it in perspective: gun control is a huge issue because people think guns are "the cause" of someone killing another human being so guns get the blame. But, the truth is that it's not guns that are the problem it's the one who pulls the trigger that is the problem. In this analogy Eve is the gun and Adam is the one who pulled "the trigger". Notice that the transgression wasn't done when Eve ate the fruit, but when Adam ate is when God rendered Judgment!

Finally, I cannot say that God "caused" satan to act, because to say that is to say that God worked evil, and we all understand that God cannot work evil. Thus, to stay on the right side of The Plumb-line I accept that God allowed Satan to act (which is Very different from giving permission) Although, I do accept that satan and the demons as well as all creatures are instruments of Gods will, though some creatures God causes to act and some He allows to act according to their own nature.

Page 2.

In fact no Scripture ever points to the KJB as being the translation of the future that preserves God's Word perfectly. If one thinks that, then that person is forcing the Scriptures to point to the KJB when it doesn't.

Ask any Hebrew or Greek reader who is fully conversant in English as well, whether his reading of the KJB accurately reflects what his language/his understanding states. There will always be words (whether words written & understood back in the distant past or English words that are deemed to follow as closely as possible to the original), that they don't accurately, nor can ever do, when translated from one language to another.

As an example, take these two Scriptures: Genesis 24:16 and Isaiah 7:14. "Virgin" is in both references as given by the KJB translators, yet in Hebrew the words are different: the first one is 'bethulah' & the other 'almah'. Why did the translators not give different English words for each of those verses, but just used 'virgin'? Maybe it wasn't so critical for them or they couldn't discern any useful difference, but it does shows variance & imperfection in their work, however small it may be.

I love the KJB - I only read from it; but why I don't read from others is because of the manuscripts that they refer to, where verses are changed, words added or omitted. I find that very difficult to accept, even though I'm sure that the translators were not doing it intentionally: just using manuscripts that have proven to raise conflicts & irregularities. GBU.

Page 1.

Just referring to a couple of your points Jimbob. 2 Peter 1:20. When Peter declared this Truth to his readers, the prophecies 'of old' were written within the Torah, the Prophets, & the Writings. These prophecies were available to all, though with high illiteracy levels, it's likely that the Scriptures were read, understood & explained to the common man mostly by students of the Word.

So what Peter is stating in this verse, is that the prophecies of old, which no doubt included the aspects of Jesus' coming & Sacrifice, were true revelations from God to His appointed. These revelations were not of private interpretation (Gk. unloosing, unpacking): they weren't written as from man's understanding of them nor from man's determination, but by the 'moving of the Holy Spirit upon them'.

So the point in these verses is not of "how many could have read those words compared to those being read today in the KJB", but from where did those words find their source, their inspiration & their validity to those then & now. Nothing at all pointing to the KJB in these verses or any of the verses you've cited now & previously as supposedly referring to the KJB as one having "pure words...purified seven times". Onto Page 2.

Daruled:

Eve gave the fruit of the tree to Adam; and he did eat of the fruit, and the results was DEATH, but He was NOT DECEIVED, but gladly DIED, with and for his wife.

Inside the first chapters of Genesis is hidden a parable of Christ's death, resurrection, and marriage (becoming ONE) to his wife, CHRIST IN YOU.

1 Timothy 2:14 For Adam WAS NOT DECEIVED, but the WOMAN being DECEIVED was in the transgression.

You are correct, this was God's plan from the foundations of the world; but, God didn't allow Saran to do anything, Satan is God's instrument, God caused Satan to act.

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan ..... although thou MOVETH ME AGAINST HIM, to destroy him without a cause .....

God Bless you!

Bennymkje,

Thank you for replying because I LOVE to talk about all things God. With that said I would like to address some things you said. "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?" Romans 8:32 KJV. This scripture shows that God is willing to give us knowledge and even understanding of His Ways! So, while there are somethings that I must "simply accept" but it isn't because my Father doesn't want to share them with me, I must "simply accept" because they are Too High for my puny mind to understand.

You also mention God's Commandment to Adam, and I see the point you're making; yet I ask you to "look" deeply at God's commandment to Adam. God gave a Commandment to Adam and satan deceived Eve, who in turn deceived Adam; do you think that satan was somehow able to infest The Garden outside THE KNOWLEDGE of GOD? Never! So, the only viable conclusion is that God "allowed" satan to be there! (Note: this isn't the same thing as giving permission). Therefore, we can conclude that God knew what would happen. So, it isn't that Satan subverted God, or that Adam ruined God's Plan; no, I can, with assurance, declare that it was Always The Plan of God that we fall! Remember, we are made in The Image of God and yet we were made unknowing of evil or good. God knows evil as well as good. Therefore, He "allowed" satan to give us the flesh (desire of evil) so that we may know and understand evil, so that when He Rescues us He may impart Goodness and then we will know and understand Good (the tree of the knowledge of evil and good) it was Always The Plan that we know and understand these things.

Richard,

You said many good things in which I agree and I would like to add my two cents to say that Freedom from the law, in actuality Frees us from being under Any obligation to follow Anything a man would make us to do! Just because a leader of my church doesn't understand something that God has Commanded me to do doesn't mean that I shouldn't obey God, on the contrary, I'm to forsake everything in this world for God! You mention freedom and then you limit freedom by putting restraints upon it by saying that freedom doesn't remove universal laws; and then you give examples by mentioning murder, divorce, and adultery. You see the conflict? The law was our schoolmaster ONLY until Christ came to give us The Holy Spirit! "But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed." Galatians 3:23 KJV "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Galatians 3:24 KJV "But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." Galatians 3:25 KJV "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:26 KJV

Now, don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying to use your freedom to sin; but I am saying that no matter what God Commands, if He indeed does Command it, then He has made it holy! With that said; there are only four things (that I have noticed) that there is no provision for in the holy bible, 1) idolatry, 2) sexual immorality, 3)blaspheme against The Holy Spirit, and 4) hypocrisy. As far as I can tell these are things God will NEVER ask Anyone to do. But, just to give you pause in judgment, the conquering of Canaan was called for ONLY when GOD Himself came to Direct it Himself! " ( Joshua 5:13-15). For we can know that it was God because angels do not allow themselves to be worshipped.

It would be helpful to be able to do a search by contributors, eg Chris.

Richard, thank you for your reply. There is much to say concerning your reply, yet in the spirit of fellowship I will forego the debatable things. But, I will point out that the Pharisees didn't reject Christ because they didn't believe He was The Messiah! No, on the contrary, they knew that Christ was indeed a man from God (Messiah) (John3:1-2). For their unbelief had a more filthy origin; Christ's teachings were about man having a Personal Relationship with The Father, and because of this God would Fulfill The Prophecy in "And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." Exodus 19:6 KJV. Therefore, the Pharisees knew that Jesus Christ came to take away their power as a priesthood by making us all priests! It's not that they didn't know who Christ was, it was that they called Christ an enemy to preserve their power over Israel. And yes, for that reason they were Judged. It is also something many leaders in the church are still doing today!

Jema:

You are correct; Ezekiel 1 is a description of the Kingdom of God, the creature becoming ONE with God, through the WORKS of Christ and his cross.

A wheel within a wheel, and where the Spirit went the wheels followed, and when the Spirit stood still the wheels stood still, just like the CLOUD over the tabernacle in the wilderness.

God BLESS YOU!

To all

Greetings in Christ JESUS

All the world of Devil,with all kind of structures they all have,yeah,all the nations are suffering and will suffer catastrofic and insufferable punishments in this seventh and last millennium,or seventh and last Day,the LORD's Day.By the way,the precedent period of sorrows-Mat.24:3-8-is the beginning of the ETERNAL chastisement.In fact,the ETERNAL punishment of all nations it had a deadline to start,understand?but not to FINISH,for it is for ever and ever.I must say that the Eternal punishment is already started,and it will NEVER end,but never.

Now,within this environment of punishments and pains,and the entire collapse of the Devil's world(as WTC's collapse-2001),the false messiah of the Jews,as you know,will manifest himself,as JESUS prophesied to the Jews,saying to them that an IMPOSTOR they will receive as their messiah- John 5:43-47,combined with 2Thess.2:3-12,and Rev.13 :11-18,among other biblical references.Take a look.

Thus,in the midst of severe chastisement and great suffering in all nations due the wrath of the Lamb,we will soon see two Beasts reigning on Earth:

1- the ancient Gentile Beast of the Sea;

2- the Beast of the earth (Israel) who still will manifest himself, from then on will begin the period of the last week,the 70th week Daniel 9:27,and each Beast will reign for 3,5 years-42 months-or 1260 days-and who will first rule the 5th and last kingdom of Satan-Dan.2:41-44- is the ancient Gentile Beast of the sea.

Then Rev.11:2 and Rev.13:5 will begin to be LITERALLY fulfilled as to the first period of the last week.The worst of all punishments will happen in the beginning of the 2nd half of the last week, with the establishment of the Abomination of Desolation for 1290 days-Dan.12:v.11.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.(Oh yes, blessed is he that waiteth,and cometh to the Ineffable,Wonderful,Indescribable, Unspeakable day,the day 1.335.Hallelujah!!!

Wow! Steven,

I give God the praise for having given me salvation since I was a so very young. I did nothing to earn it nor was I so wise to understand it in depth. You sure have read so much prejudice into my statements, Steven. I have never said that I am an expert in Bible knowledge nor in interpretation. You are assuming that I think this or present this but are in error.

As I have said many times, we are to think the best of others. You are failing to do that with me. You are actually attacking my character here and have done so in the recent past. This surprises me. When I have presented statements that are in agreement with you, you are kind to me. But if my statement varies from yours, you seem to have a difficult time with that.

I am trying not to be overly sensitive here and I desire for us to be at peace. But being at peace takes respect on the side of both of us.

All I can say at this point is that all of those things you accused me of, I think you should take a good, honest look at yourself.

I think at this point, I am done speaking to you concerning this thread as it has become hostile from your side. I wish you well and look forward to having more gracious conversations with you in the future. The Holy Spirit will be the one to correct either of us of any ways we have sinned in our participation on this forum and towards each other. I welcome such correction from the Holy Spirit. He is never wrong.

Good afternoon S. Spencer. I cannot recall that this thread was started by the poster asking if one needs to obey the 10 commandments to be saved. In fact, I don't recall a thread beginning this way since I have been on this site for nearly 2 years.

But perhaps it has been, I may be wrong about that.

If you want to begin a thread by asking this question, go ahead.

Or if you want to begin a thread with the question, "Are people saved by grace alone?

Then the thread can focus only on such questions. But this was not the case in this thread. I think You assumed that the debate was on whether one needs to obey the 10 commandments to be saved. But that is not how I understood this thread to be about totally.

I disagree that I am straddling the fence on this issue. I have always stated that we are saved by grace alone and that we obey the commands of God because of this grace given to us. It provides us with the power to say "Yes" to what is godly and "No" to what is not. The regenerative work of the Holy Spirit gives us the power to resist sin and the devil when before regeneration we could not do so. Our obedience is an ongoing work of sanctification through the Holy Spirit, but we do not put our will aside and in doing so the Holy Spirit does the obedience for us. WE do it, with the power and conviction of the Holy Spirit. Our will is changed by our regeneration from hating good and loving evil to loving good and hating evil. Aa a believer we will increasingly be more and more Christ-like in all of our thoughts, words, and deeds. We will more and more do what the Holy Spirit leads us to do so that we do not sin by omission.

S. Spencer, do you have any problem with what I have stated above? If so let me know. If not, then take your debate to someone else because I don't think we need to do so. I think we agree on the relationship of grace and obedience in the life of the believer, don't we?

Ezekiel Ch 1 , this is the Gospel of the Kingdom of God , the Gospel of Salvation in Christ the Son of God , the four faces are the four Gospel books . Which face is which gospel ? Matthews ? Marks ? Luke's and John's ? What do you think ? I think John is the eagle , Matthew the Lion , Luke the man and Mark the ox/ calf . Ezekiel Ch 1 is such an awesome chapter , it terrified me the first time I read it :) .

We should heed the word of the LORD, and confess, repent, trust and obey HIM. Only the LORD JESUS CHRIST can save us from the rumored next nation wide lock down. Economy failing, inflation rampant, abortion still widely practiced. Political leadership in need of deep and intimate prayer. Let the saints arise and call on our GOD who is capable of righting all things for HIS praise and glory.

We must endeavor to follow HIS desires and not our own. As the LORD does not want any to perish; we must also be about the work of our FATHER and SAVIOR. Let us all put on the armor of the LORD and move forward fully equipped to do battle.

GOD to shine HIS face upon all on this forum, and gloriously bless us as we pray and go forth in HIS name.

September 2, 2023

Brother richard:

you quoted:

matthew 10:23 .... ye (those 12 disciples) shall not have gone over the cities of israel, til the son of man be come.

christ came the second time when god raised him from the dead, we became joint-heirs, we are the body of christ.

christ came; the second time, in the clouds of heaven, the new creation.

colossians 1:27 .... this mystery ...... christ in you .......

john 17:22 and the glory that thou has give me, i have given them, that they may be one, as we are one.

the gospel is believing what god has done for man.

psalms 107:8 o that man would praise the god of his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of man.

god bless you!

A literal approach to the Bible is not as surefooted as looking at it as God a Spirit willed it. Comparing spiritual with spiritual what do we have in the Bible.(1 Co.2:13) The Spirit has organized the God document for our instruction so we see two narrative lines of the Father and the Son.

The earthly ministry of Jesus was three and a half years. Daniel refers to time, times and a half. The Spirit uses the same period as a tag to indicate the two timescales of the Father and Son who must account for his ministry in human likeness. In Re.12 we have the woman in the wilderness is provided for " a thousand two hundred and threescore days." (Re.12:6)It works out three and half years. In Re 13 we have the same period in months which is given to the beast. "and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.: In the genealogy of St Matthew we have three sets of 14 generations. (14x3). In the story of Elisha we have "And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."(2 Ki.2:24) Why did the children jeer at Elisha unprovoked? 'They hated me without cause' applies to the Son. Elisha, Elijah are set down as double for the Son. The Spirit keeps the Son in focus in OT and also in the latter days. Four cardinal directions has bearing on Jesus as the Savior of the whole world. So four angels holding the wind (Re..7:1) and "Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates./And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men."(Re.9:14-15) The everlasting gospel preached in mid heaven (Re.14:6) refers to the half an hour silence in heaven. "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."(Re.8:1)

Have you ever presented the Gospel to a atheist or perhaps a Muslim?

The first thing they refer you to is the 10 commandments and their argument sounds just like those who present the keeping of the law as a means of salvation.

So, they should have a clear understanding of what the law was for and what it did "by the scriptures" through a study in Romans, Galatians, and Corinthians.

Romans 7:8-14.

Galatians 2:16-21.

Galatians 3:1-29.

2 Corinthians 3:5-11. and then perhaps scriptures like Philippians 3:2-14.

These verses convict the sinner and put all under sin. That's what the law was for!

Our outward ceremonies and obedience at our best couldn't make us perfect! There is no new birth!

God requires perfection that is why he required a perfect replacement, Lamb. Christ Jesus.

SANCTIFICATION FOLLWS THIS.

Consider Israel.

God displayed the fallen nature of man and their inability to perform even while God was in their midst and carried them. This was and still is an example to us.

We are lost hopeless sheep gone astray apart from Jesus's blood shed on the cross.

Understand Matthew 21:42.

Jesus is the chief cornerstone, the pivotal piece of the foundation in which we are to build on.

When we are led by the Spirit we're building with precious stone. When we are led by the flesh, we build with wood hay and stubble. every man's work shall be tested by fire.

WHEN ISRAEL AS A NATION IS DRIVEN TO CALL ON THEIR MESSIAH THOSE WHO ACCEPT HIM AT THAT TIME WILL BE SAVED ALSO. AND GOD WILL BE SANCTIFIED IN THEM.

God bless

Sorry about the way I stated that..there were provisions; clearly when David and his companions ate the shewbread. This would be related to ceremonial law as to whether something was set apart for sacred or "profane" use (which simply would mean common usage). Since the Levites would eat the sacrifices after proper cooking and preparation it was set apart for God but eaten by men. Such would be the case with the Disciples. In the instance of ceremonial laws we also see provision in Numbers 9:10 of when men were unclean; they could celebrate Passover 7 days later. We see a change of that law clearly with the foods that Peter was commanded to rise up and eat ( Acts 10:13).

Anyway I'm not trying to cause more dissention here. In anything other than ceremonial laws the law still stands. The day of the Sabbath appears to not be something enforced under the New Covenant although some argue it is still to be Saturday; since Christ is Lord of the Sabbath I can certainly see Sunday now as a similar day of rest; although I don't think scripture allows us to force that on anyone. It is the motives of the heart as to healing and the Pharisees adding to what is considered "work" that makes Jews today say for instance that they can't work an elevator button on Saturday but walk up 10 flights of stairs.

I suppose I'll conclude saying that God did instigate the "New Covenant" and in some ways it varies from the "Old" one. One was for National Israel as a political and spiritual nation; the latter of course for the church grafted into the vine so to speak.

ONce in heaven; of course we can't sin but I'm sure elements of the law will be lived out as we have perfect love and perfect peace in the presence of a perfect God.

Agape; Rich P

Gigi.

When it comes to Salvation it should be clear.

There's NO straddling the fence. Salvation comes before sanctification by the Spirit. If someone asks me, by what means am I saved I want my answer to be clear!

I'd rather lose them as a friend than to mislead them.

I don't try to win a popularity contest. I don't turn away and pretend I'm confused at what someone is saying so I don't have to tell them they're wrong.

You say you wants to present both sides to this view. Well, that was already settled.

The debate was never " should we obey God's commandment once saved, it was do we obey God's commandment to get saved.

Here is a portion of Bro Dan's quote to you;

"So this really puts to rest the argument by a few on this site; that believe following God's Commandments aren't necessary, or that when we follow them, or encourage others to do so, we are trying to create/work for our own salvation. As you implied, we are living in the Spirt and being obedient to our God. Amen. End quote;

Being obedient to our God "by the spirit" never was the debate!

He stated a few on this site; that believe following God's Commandments aren't necessary.

That was never said, where did he get that from?

He would have been more accurate if he would have said, a few on this site; believe that God's Commandments weren't given for salvation, and no one is able to keep them because of the weekness of our flesh.

If we all were saying the same thing, "that we obey and love God's precepts and commands by the Spirit why or we in a debate at all?

And why is there so much push back when one says, We are saved by grace alone APART FROM THE lAW when that's what Paul says?

David, I have prayed for you and your family.

Hello S. Spencer,

Thanks for your explanation.

If you think I was trying to not offend Adam or Bro Dan in what I said or if you think I was defending a salvation by grace plus works doctrine, I was not. Sorry if you interpreted my post that way. I was defending what Jesus said concerning that people who love Him keep His commandments, as that seemed to be the original idea of the first posting on the thread.

While I respect you, you again are claiming to know my intentions and judging me to be taking a carnal approach. You are wrong about me and to do this type of judging is also wrong.

That said, we are to evaluate what people do say here without trying to read into what one says and also, it is good practice stick to what is said in the actual present thread.

I hope you have a good day with your wife today. My hubby and I will probably be out and about this day, too.

Steven, you are my friend here, and I am glad to know you.

Gigi.

I am back from a few errands; I will now continue.

I believe carnality shows up in several different ways. Here's a few "Filled with strife, envy, and division, Unable to digest solid spiritual food. Self-centeredness, one that continues in sin. ext.

Don't worry I am not accusing you of all of these.

I do you have shown some signs of "Unable to digest solid spiritual food. Self-centeredness" and there are a few other things I wouldn't care to get into at the moment like partiality, and prideful at times.

Here is why I say that.

Gigi when we declare to others what we think we have achieved in the flesh, we must be careful we are not robbing God of his glory.

you present yourself as a person entering your life as an adult that never had need if repentance by carrying your salvation all the way back to the age of 6.

Gigi at that age everyone was covered by God's mercy because of our youthful ignorance of our fallen nature, and full understanding of what the blood of Christ did in our behalf on the cross. so, give him that glory. That if you believe there's an age of accountability for the individual. If not, does a child at the age of six goes to hell if he dies?

This carnal mindset causes us to also look at the vessel and not who fashioned it.

Also.

When you go through the OT as you have been doing (with your own interpretation) and have been studying scripture and walking with God for 60 years as you say, It seems there should be more expected of you being that you present yourself as an expert in scripture when you attempt to correct and grade people on their theology.

Because by the time one goes through the entire Bible that long and have been LED BY THE SPIRIT, you should be sound in your doctrine and wisdom by the time you get into the New Testament.

If you are mature, understand and recognize the Gospel, you should know when someone is not preaching it.

need more space.

Jesus sent his twelve disciples in Matt.10 Twelve refers to the Gospel (of Christ) where as Luke is referring to the end times Seventy 'other disciples' which is preached from mid-heaven. (There is a difference to make the point would require another post) "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"(Re.14:6) In the Bible we have so many instances where the Spirit refers to a specific even and it telescopes into the end times. Refer the verse where God appears to King Solomon second time. (1 Ki.9:3) " I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually." It is referring to the House of Prayer for all nations.

Now in the Luke version we have a similar construction from vv.17-18 "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name./And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." Jesus as the Word become flesh is referring to what the scriptures indicate. "For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me,"( Luke 22:37) Luke's Gospel gives another insight of the Son while the Jewish sensibilities of Matthew gives us yet another.

Seventy (7x10) number is another cue. 7 is the command number which is used for referring completeness. Where 10 indicates man's life. Thus Jesus fasting forty days and nights or he was seen after he was risen." he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days"(Ac.1:3) God gave 70 elders the spirit that was upon Moses (Nu.11:25)

Richard,

You stated: I would also add that we can look to Christ Himself who apparently "broke" the Sabbath law by healing on the Sabbath; having Disciples eating grain and thus "doing work"; etc.

John 15:10 "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."

Jesus is stating in John 15:10 that he kept His Fathers Commandments - which would include the Sabbath/4th commandment. So what you are stating is in direct conflict with the scripture.

If you read God's 4th Commandment Exodus 20:10 it is commanding us to refrain from our work, meaning refrain from our normal work, doing things to get us ahead/making money. The Pharisees and the Sadducees made the Sabbath into something that God never intended it to be, and Jesus straightened that out, he showed us what the Sabbath Day is really meant to be. Similar to showing us by His examples, what He meant by recieving water baptism, and how we receive the Holy Spirit etc.

I would be very careful telling others that Jesus broke the Sabbath, when He states in scripture that he kept all of His Fathers Commandments.

Happy Sabbath Day!