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As well, can the words 'soul' and 'spirit' be interchanged, at least in some instances? Or, can we assume that since both soul & spirit are immaterial, they must continue to exist, unlike the body which remains in the grave (without life & deteriorating) until the resurrection? And for those who understand it as 'the soul remaining with the body in the grave', what happens when there is no longer a body, or the body has been broken up/scattered/dissolved, where does the soul find its rest? Maybe moot questions that don't provide easy answers from either the Word or human knowledge of such things, though no doubt you have been or will be considering in your studies on this subject. GBU.
Last part:
Jesus received back His full glory after He ascended to the Father. This is shown in His visit to Paul on the Damascus road. He was indescribable to Paul, only described as an extremely bright light and a voice that came out of the light.
Before incarnation, the divine Son of the Father appeared to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Adam and Eve in the Garden. He did not appear in the fullness of the glory He possessed with the Father, in some of these appearances, even though He could have. He could show or hide some of all of HIs glory at will. And this is eternally true of Him.
Ronald, no need to be apologetic to me. I am not offended when someone responds to my posts, even if they disagree with me. What offends me is when someone is disrespectful in their response to me, when they assume things about me that they cannot know, and when they make judgments about my spiritual condition before God (which only God truly knows). You have never done any of these things to me. We always have healthy exchanges that come from hearts that love God and one another and from an attitude that gives the other the benefit of the doubt, thinking the best of one another, and being open minded enough to hear each other out and then consider what has been said and finally checking the Scriptures to see if what has been shared aligns with the Bible. I admit that there are some topics that believers will just not agree on. So, that is why I don't respond to argue to convince another, but to present my own viewpoint in a conversation that is open to all who wish to post on this forum.
I do hope that you have a great evening, that the Lord will bless you with wisdom and understanding as I desire for myself to receive, and that we grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.
These who did not believe in Jesus will not have the eternal life that Jesus says belong to believers.
Unbelievers will live forever just like believers but in the absence anything good and righteous and not live in God's presence although God will always know where they are and all that they will experience in hell.
Unbelievers will go to hell upon physical death and will enter the Lake of Fire at the final judgment. They will be alive in the Lake of Fire forever, as the Devil and His angels will also be. There these will experience eternally the wrath of God.
Believers will be in heaven and will not know anything of the experience of unbelievers in hell because we will not ever experience sorrow or pain in our life in eternity.
As to the transfiguration: ( Matt. 17:1-13 and Mk 9:2) it says that Peter, James and John accompanied Jesus up the mountain. Jesus did not appear to them. He was actually there and allowed His appearance to change to reveal His divine glory.
Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke with Jesus. The Father actually did speak out of the cloud, the disciples actually heard the Father speak. Vs. 09 of Mt. 17 does say that Jesus told the disciples not to speak of this vision until after He is risen. A vision does not always need to be something that is not physical or actually happening. Mark 9 states that Jesus told the disciples not to speak of "what they had seen" until He was risen from the dead. So this indicates that the disciples actually saw this with their eyes as a present reality. 1 Peter 1:16-18 refers to the transfiguration as something they were "eyewitnesses" to, they all saw the same thing at the same time and heard the same things at the same time.
Because Jesus is God, He did not become less than God in His incarnation. He still possessed glory as God incarnated, but this glory was less than what He shared with the Father for eternity past before the incarnation.
( Ps 16:10) For thou wilt not leave my soul in (hell); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The word (hell) is #7585; it means hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat) including its accessories and inmates, ((grave)), hell, pit.
( Luke 23:46) "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost".
The word (commend) is #3908; it means to place alongside, i.e. present, to deposit (as a trust or for protection) set before.
Father was in heaven when Jesus spoke these Words so the spirit goes to heaven at death.
Jesus' soul was not left in hell so it went to hell. The soul goes to the ((grave)).
Jesus' commended His spirit into the hands of God. The Spirit goes to God.
Separation of soul and spirit in Jesus Christ.
Blessings to you David.
And to all who seek His Truth!
Has Luke created a problem here, regarding Adam, given:
i.the definition of a Son - a male descendant
ii.the need for a mother for Adam in this construct?
iii.the arguable conflict with the Genesis version of Adam's origin - Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Is this Genesis account consistent with the concept of a son?
This rendition by Luke is even more depressing as it implies that Adam being the first human, then the murderer - Cain - was God's first grandson.
Please refer to my respond to Chris re Heb 4:12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:23.
On your statements regarding the Wrath of God and the nature of Christ's Atonement, I must disagree.
I would encourage you to carefully read Isaiah 53, the entire chapter.
And also consider these verses:
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
So if God has "saved" us, it means that Christ, eternal God Himself, had taken upon Himself every dirty rotten sin that we have committed or ever will commit, and has paid the full penalty for those sins, the Wrath of God, Eternal Death, which we rightly deserve, required by the Law of God, as our substitute. And He has freed us from Bondage to Sin and Satan, and has raised us from Spiritual Death and given us Eternal Life. And will at the Last Day, complete our Salvation by giving us our Resurrected Spiritual Body ( 1 Corinthians 15) in which we will live and reign with Christ as joint inheritors with Christ of the New Heavens and New Earth for ever more.
Praise God for so great Salvation!
No apologies necessary. Thanks to you and Jimbob for the 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 12:4 verses.
One thing I know for a certainty is that God did not choose words or phrases idly as He has wrote the Bible. We must compare scripture with scripture using the principles that God lays down for us in the Bible if we hope to come to truth. We must always be willing to examine any understanding we may have in the light of any verse or passage in the Bible that deals with the question at hand.
God did not write the Bible in a way that it is always easy to come to truth. It is often very difficult. And if we begin to isolate verses and passages from the rest of the Bible or approach a question based on the wisdom of men (let God be True, but every man a liar, Rom 3:4) we can very quickly and easily be led down a wrong path.
The Bible is its own dictionary and its own interpreter. And we must always be mindful that it is God Himself who must open our understanding and give us ears to hear as we seek truth from His Holy Word, the Bible. And that He does this on His own timetable and for His own purposes.
I would need to further study the relationship between Soul and Spirit as God uses these terms throughout the Bible before arriving at a distinction between the two.
At this point, I don't see anything in these two verses that would change my understanding of 1) the Spiritual condition of Mankind apart from God's mercy in Salvation, nor 2) what happens to a True Believer when they become Born Again, nor 3) what happens to a True Believer when their Body dies Physically, nor 4) what happens to a True Believer at the Resurrection of the Last Day.
I have stated what I believe God has declared regarding these teachings in many of my comments, along with some of the scriptural references dealing with these questions. All of which are ultimately speaking to aspects of Salvation itself and how God deals with those whom He saves.
Now the time is of harvest, not to sow. Be ready. The harvest is the END of the world; and the reapers are the messengers(of the Lord)-Mat.13:39.
And Paul Apostle warned-1Cor.15:24-25: -> 24 The END cometh, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to GOD, even the Father; when He shall have PUT DOWN ALL RULE and ALL AUTHORITY and POWER. 25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies UNDER His feet.
Remember: Our Lord JESUS left very clear: In the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn- Matthew 13: 39 & 30.
Furthermore, He also said- John 4:36-37: -> 36 He that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both He that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. And herein is that saying true, One soweth(JESUS sowed), and another reapeth(the messengers).
Don't forget: To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted-Eccl.3:1-2.
The Word is GOD, self-executing.
Get ready
Thanks for your reply and I appreciate the time you took to think about my post.
I do not think we will come to agreement on this topic, so I will certainly consider what you have posed here.
As to Hebrews 12:1, this verse about the cloud of witnesses is part of what the author was speaking about the people who had faith in chapter 11. These people were all dead, but the author says that these are who compose this cloud of witnesses, from my understanding.
I have never read anywhere in Scripture that states that people cease to exist when they die, as Jema seems to say. If there is a verse, I would love to take it under consideration.
That it is unto each man to die, (physical death) and then comes judgment (then seems to indicate immediately following death.
Those who believe in Jesus will live, even though they die. John 11:25-26).
When one dies, their body (which is made of various natural elements) will decompose back into dust).
One's soul will be with Jesus with consciousness and interaction with God ( Rev. 6:9; 20:4)
We will not be spirits, but souls. Angels are spiritual beings, we are human beings God made to exist with a spirit, soul, and body.
The redemption of our bodies will occur at the Resurrection at Jesus' second coming to be united to our soul, and spirit to become fully redeemed.
The body we had in this life is the body that will be resurrected, just as Jesus was resurrected in the same body he died in.
Our physical bodies, souls, and spirits will be reunited in this resurrection.
Our whole self, body, soul, and spirit will be glorified, transformed after our bodies are resurrected.
We will live forever with God. He will make His throne and dwelling among those who believed in the Son.
Those who did not believe in the Son will also be resurrected in the same bodies they lived in before death. Their body will be reunited with their souls and be immortal.
May I ask, How can one it be tormented if there is no awareness?
Revelation 14:9-11.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be TORMENTED with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
And can they have no rest day and night if they are without awareness?
To torment means to torture: - pain toil torment toss vex.
How can there be weeping and gnashing of teeth as mentioned in many verses?
I have to agree with Gigi.
God bless
Death is sleep, we still exist we just no longer have any consciousness or knowledge of time or happenings. I take it is 1 Peter 3:18-20 as your question on who Jesus preached to in Hades between His death and resurrection.
There are several interpretations of the meaning of these verses. some depend on the belief in the immortal soul and a place where souls go. First, this chapter, or these verses, do not say when Jesus did this. If Scripture does not support when Jesus did this can we say Jesus preached to these spirits between His death and resurrection?
Second, I do not know any Scriptures that people are called spirits. We have a spirit that gives us our breath, drive, energy, and communication with God through His Spirit, but when we die that stops and it goes back to God, Ecclesiastes 12:7. We are mortal beings and we are not called spirits, to me that would open the door to necromancy, that is just me. I can give my understanding of these verses if you want.
Jesus's transformation is a vision, Matt. 17:9, Jesus had not been crucified and resurrected, Jesus is the first fruit of those who slept the firstborn of death. Moses could not be resurrected before Jesus; Jesus was there but Moses and Elijah were like the things John was shown in Revelation. It was done to strengthen their faith for God said out of the cloud, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Heb. 12:1 I am sorry I do not see these witnesses in heaven, the word cloud could be a multitude or a great company who through diversity have obtained a good report through faith. All we know of God's former work should inspire us to run the race set before us. John 11:26 I understand eternally die because it is appointed unto men once to die, Heb. 9:27.
Forgive me if I have overstepped, God bless,
RLW
Ot is pleasant weather here, nut the wildfire smoke can be problematic some days.
The Lord had need good to us and we are thankful to Him.
Thank YOU FATHER for reminding me of YOUR perfect mercy and grace. I can continue forward when I remember YOUR promises to all who are saved and walk in YOUR truth and spirit.
May I remember spend more time to read YOUR word; pray and intercede for our nation; give my time and money for the ministry; tell and make disciples as YOU have directed us to do.
GOD to shine HIS face on all on this forum and gloriously bless us as we go forward and do the work HE has ordained us all to do.
For my GOD is not willing that anyone should perish, but that all should come to repentance and into the knowledge of our SAVIOR, the LORD JESUS CHRIST.
August 25, 2023 1108hrs NC; USA
Revelation 1:8- I am Alpha and Omega,the beginning and the ending,saith the Lord,which is, and which was,and which is to come,the Almighty.
Matthew 28:18- And JESUS came and spake saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Luke 20:35-37 -> 35 They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world(the next world), and the resurrection from the dead,neither marry,nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
38 For GOD is not a GOD of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
Phil.3:20-21 -> 20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
1Cor.15:51-54 and 24-26 -->51 Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
24 Then cometh the end,when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God,even the Father;when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power(This prophecy will fulfill LITERALLY from now on)
25 For He must reign,till he hath put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Get ready for the last week, week 70th Daniel 9:27
continues below
continuation from above:
Now, on this seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium, the world that was promised it would be to come- Luke 20:35-36-the third heaven, the same will be established and will last 1000 years, the first and second heavens(the OT and NT) will be burned up with everlasting fire, and those which believed not in the Word of GOD for salvation will perish for ever.
By the way, remember 1Corinthians 3:12-15 (quoted below) - , combined with 2Peter 3:7-13. Take a look and understand the prophetical voice, otherwise, you might lose your soul. There is not and will not be any kind of sacrifice for salvation of souls from now on, after Noah, and Moses, the last one was that of JESUS.
12 If any man built upon the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made MANIFEST: for -in this Day- it shall (be)declare(d) it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as BY FIRE. (I suppose you don't know this kind of fire- Isaiah 33:10-14)
Get ready
Revelation 21:8 - 8 But the fearful(the COWARDS), and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
God Bless this day.
Carleton
You said its Christ's soul not Davids soul in view. How does that change the fact that the word hell has the meaning of "the place or state of departed souls"? Its not me differentiating between the soul and spirit of man David I'm only showing what the Word of God tells us about the soul and spirit being divided or separated. You asked if I'm aware of any other verses? ( 1 Thess 5:23) would be one.
In ( 1 Thess 4:13) Who are "them which are asleep"?
In ( 1 Thess 4:14) Here we see "them also which sleep in Jesus" and also "will God bring with him" This verse tells us those which sleep in Jesus will come back with Him. This is the spirit.
In ( 1 Thess 4:16) We see "and the dead in Christ shall rise first". Where are these dead in Christ rising from David?
We see those who sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him, this would be the spirit.
And we see the dead in Christ shall rise first, this would be the soul rising from the grave. ( Jn 5:28-29) v28 "all that are in the graves shall hear his voice". v29 "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation".
You asked if being Born again occurred in the spirit or the soul? That would have to be both because the spirit returns with Christ and the soul rises from the grave to be reunited with the spirit.
I'm not quite sure about your 1 Cor ch15 question.
You said that Jesus endured the wrath of God? The wrath of God is violent passion, or [justifiable] abhorrence, by implying punishment, anger, indignation, vengeance.
Jesus laid down His life, God wasn't angry with Him, God did not punish Jesus to bring eternal life to all who Believe in Him, men did that. Jesus suffered for the sins of the world but it was not vengeance from God. Thats how I see this.
Thank you for your response David.
RVG/KJV - Bilingual Edition (Black)
You have to get it from Chick Publications just do a google search.
After years of work, the Reina Valera Gmez (RVG) Bible is finally available. A true, "Textus Receptus" Bible, the RVG has been proofread and refined by Spanish-speaking Christians in 13 countries. This revision of the RV 1909 is the first Spanish Bible that is not the product of a small committee.
Ephesians 4:14 (KJV) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Ep 4:14 When the gifts operate in their God-appointed manner, and the saints are active in service for the Lord, three dangers are avoided-immaturity, instability, and gullibility.Immaturity. Believers who never become involved in aggressive service for Christ never emerge from being spiritual children. They are undeveloped through lack of exercise. It was to such that the writer to the Hebrews said, "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again-." ( Heb 5:12).Instability. Another danger is spiritual fickleness. Immature Christians are susceptible to the grotesque novelties and fads of professional quacks. They become religious gypsies, moving to and fro from one appealing fantasy to another.Gullibility. Most serious of all is the danger of deception. Those who are babes are unskillful in the word of righteousness, their senses are not exercised to discern between good and evil ( Heb 5:13, 14). They inevitably meet some false cultist who impresses them by his zeal and apparent sincerity. Because he uses religious words, they think he must be a true Christian. If they had studied the Bible for themselves, they would be able to see through his deceitful juggling of words. But now they are carried about by his wind of doctrine and led by unprincipled cunning into a form of systematized error. "Believer's Bible Commentary". Marion, IA: Laridian, Inc., 2021.
Good to hear from you. I am glad you found my post edifying. I realize that there are several differing views on this topic and I was just entering in what I believe to be true from my study of Scripture. Not trying to convince anyone, really, but hopefully give something for others to ponder and seek out in the Scriptures as I do with what I read from others that think differently than I do.
I think it is a good think for people to be open about their beliefs on here so that we can examine beliefs from differing angles and hold them up to the Word of God for verification. It is iron sharpening iron, good for helping us mature and remain sharp and useful for what God would have us say and do.
Blessing to you, Jesse. I have yet to finish reading all of your posts on your intro to the books of the new testament. I appreciate that you did this. I hope to read through them all.
I appreciate the way you connected the Spirit's parting of the waters in Genesis to the Spirits dividing between our soul and spirit by the Word of God ( Heb. 4:12)
Have a blessed evening of rest, Carleton.
I would have to say no to that. But if I may ask you, where do you believe the kingdom of God is? And are there bibles to read in Gods kingdom?
Those are some great questions and I also want to say amen to your entire post. I have been following this thread for a couple days now and it seems as though a majority of the things being said have nothing to do with brother Carlton's original post. There are a few responses from the beginning that were relevant to his post (yours being one), but it seems as though it went off topic pretty quickly. I wanted to chime in a few times but what you posted is perfect. I'm am interested in reading the response to your questions.
God bless!!!
proud shall be abased, and the poor shall be exalted; the high and lofty shall be brought down, and the meek and upright shall be set up; Truth shall reign as King, and deceit shall utterly be confounded; they that now suffer all manner of evil for the Name of Jesus, shall possess everlasting freedom, and the dominion shall be in their hands, and they that now cause the just to suffer, shall go into endless captivity, the seed of God shall spring forth and flourish, but the seed of evil-doers shall never be renowned: And betwixt these two seeds is an enmity put, and they can never be reconciled, each seed hath his fruit, the one is cursed and the other is blessed, and each seed is known by its fruit, and must receive from the Lord accordingly.
And this is the testimony of the servants of the Lord, and the witness which they give unto all the world of those things which we have handled, tasted, heard, seen and felt; blessed are all they that can receive it.
We are known to God in the Spirit, and one to another in his life, and are known in the world by the name of Quakers, cast upon us through the derision of the heathen.
But Quaking and trembling at the Word of the Lord; by the servants of the Lord, we do own, when the power of God reaches to the witness of God in the creature, which brings condemnation upon all high looks, and upon the lofty nature, which causes the earthly part to tremble, we do own and many of us do witness, the Quaking and Trembling which is by the operation of the Spirit of God, and the several operations by the one Spirit we own: which brings down proud flesh, whose honor God will lay in the dust, and bring it to everlasting contempt, and when this comes to pass, quaking shall not be a strange thing, nor the Name reproached as it is at this day by the proud spirits of men, who knows not the work of the Lord, nor the operation of his Spirit.
The Acts 2 passage (and also in Acts 13) are teaching us something about the Nature of Salvation in Paul's and Peter's preaching. In doing so they are referencing Psalm 16 and providing a commentary on this Psalm and it is very clear that The Holy One spoken of in these verses is Christ Himself, not David the man.
Christ endured the Wrath of God, eternal death, in full payment for the sins of His Elect and then rose from that death. It is Christ's soul, not David's soul that is in view.
I have always understood the Soul to be the Spirit essence of an individual, and therefore synonymous. So mankind has a physical BODY and a Spirit essence, his SOUL. But the Hebrews 4:12 verse is interesting. I have some thoughts about that verse but not prepared to share yet.
But I'm puzzled by your differentiating between the Soul and the Spirit of man. So are you saying that mankind has a Body, a Soul, and a Spirit? Perhaps you could elaborate on that idea a bit. Are you aware of any other verses that teach that three-way differentiation?
And how do you understand what it means to be Born Again? Does that occur in the Spirit or the Soul?
And what is the Spiritual Body in 1 Corinthians 15:40-44? There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a NATURAL BODY; it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a NATURAL BODY, and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY.
The passage above is Christ applying Salvation to one of His Elect before our very eyes. Causing that thief on the cross. to become Born Again, to receive his RESURRECTED SOUL.
And no, Christ was not lying to him.
So that thief died and was buried and his body has returned to the dust. But that thief was indeed with Christ in Heaven, in Paradise at the moment of his physical death. And will be returning with Christ in his Soul Existence to receive his glorified Spiritual Body at the Resurrection of the Last Day.
What you are suggesting is a complete denial of what it means to become "saved", to become Born Again.
Yes! "the SOUL that sineth it shall die". And apart from God's mercy in Salvation (in Christ having endured the Wrath of God, eternal death, the full penalty for the sins of those whom He saves) that is indeed the fate of all Mankind, Eternal Death.