Bible Questions & Discussion PAGE 254

Chris thank you for your reply.

When the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place that starts great tribulation, right? The word (tribulation) is #2347; it means pressure, afflicted (-tion) anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble. The last 3 1/2 years will be the time period that Satan has been cast to the earth ( Rev. 12:7-9) In ( Rev. 12:12-14) v12 "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil ((is come down unto you)), ((having great wrath)), because ((he knoweth he hath but a short time))". (This "Woe" would be the same time period as ( Mt. 24:21) "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be". (Also the wrath of God, and this time period of Satan having great wrath on the inhabiters of the earth are not the same time periods, Satan will persecute, even beheading Believers. God's wrath is poured out on all non-believers in Jesus Christ)

(This wrath from Satan will be really BAD, and EVIL times! The mark of the beast will be during this time period ( Rev. 13:16-18).

( Rev. 12:14) gives us a time period "where she is nourished for a time, a times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent".

That is 3 1/2 years, that would be the last 3 1/2 years.

( Rev. 12:17) Tells us "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ".

Now the next chapter ( Rev. 13:1-4) We see the dragon (Satan) giving power to the beast.

( Rev. 13:5-8) v5 the beast (antichrist) is given power to continue forty two months, (3 1/2 years)

v7 he is given power over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. The last 3 1/2 years.

What part of the last 7 years that you see as being great tribulation would Satan be cast to the earth?

Again thank you Chris.

Hi , littlemanchild.

I pray gods peace and strength be upon you.

To your question.

God said let us make man in our own image, after our likeness:

Key words your looking at is (us) and ( our )

It is my understanding, that us and our is God the Father and Jesus his only begotten son .

Jesus was with the Father from the foundations of the earth. This is referenced throughout scriptures.

Scriptures tell us No one has seen the Father save the son.

Also Jesus tells us that the Father sent him, and he must return to the Father .

So we can recieve the Holyghost .

Hope this helps.

May God bless and keep you.

Love you all.

AMEN Brother Ronald:

You are correct: Daniel is a prophecy of Christ, not antichrist.

Most don't understand the abomination that maketh desolated. It was SET UP the same time the daily sacrifice was destroyed .... Daniel 12:11

Hebrews 3:9 But Christ a Son over his own HOUSE, whose house we are .....

Matthew 23:38 Behold your HOUSES are left unto you DESOLATE ....

All men DIED, their house (BODY) was left desolate, no life, dead on the cross, then CHRIST ONLY arose.

All men arose a NEW CREATION; joint HEIRS of Christ, the body of Christ, the life now the SPIRIT of GOD.

Most don't understand the GREAT TRIBULATION.

Matthew 24:22 And unless those days be SHORTENED, no flesh should be SAVED ....

Christ and ALL MEN DIED on the cross, three SHORT days latter, ALL MEN were made ALIVE by the RESURRECTION.

ALL the wrath of God, that ALL MEN deserved, was POURED OUT on Christ, that was the GREAT TRIBULATION, three short(en) days, for the elects sake.

The same things is pictured in Revelation, all the 7 plagues and 7 vials had to be poured out before ANYONE could enter the TEMPLE, God Almighty and the LAMB are the TEMPLE .... Revelation 21:22

Revelations 15:8 ... NO ONE could enter the temple, until the seven plagues were fulfilled ......

God bless you!

Hello Michaelantoni. The Hebrew word given for 'witty inventions', is as you've shown, 'mezzimah'. In your study, you would have also found out how that word is used in the other verses. In Proverbs 8:12 that you shared, this Hebrew word implies 'one's power to devise or show discretion'. Hence, the verse could read, 'I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge through the use of discretion.' Or further with that verse, 'I wisdom enjoy good sense, acquiring knowledge by the use of discretion'. And we see the same word, 'mezzimah', with its specific meaning used in Proverbs 1:4, Proverbs 2:11, Proverbs 3:21 & Proverbs 5:2.

And yes, we can see that word being applied towards 'thoughts' ( Jeremiah 23:20); 'intents' ( Jeremiah 30:24); 'device/plan' ( Jeremiah 51:11). And then we see it in 'evil thoughts' ( Psalm 10:4); 'evil schemes' ( Job 21:27); 'lewd/wicked acts' ( Jeremiah 11:15); wicked speech ( Psalm 139:20).

So to understand 'mezzimah', which meaning can be quite diverse, we need to read it as the verse gives it, in its correct context. So 'discretion or one's power to devise' appears to be the primary meaning of 'mezzimah', but how that word is used will give other associated meanings, i.e. whether one's mind works for that which is good & wholesome, or towards evil thoughts & acts. So, I believe we find an agreement here.

Hi S Spencer

Sorry brother did not see your last post. I know we differ on this, as long as we inspire each other to study both sides we are doing ok. I feel the word antichrist has been used so many times having people looking for the wrong thing. This beast will ascend out of the bottomless pit, Rev. 17:8 we don't know what he will look like, the man of sin.

The word antichrist is not in Revelation, and where we see it in 1 John 2:18,22 1 John 4:3 and 2 John 1:7 all are describing people or the spirit of antichrist, deceivers not a beast. There has been people from the time Jesus ascended claiming to be the Messiah and will deliver them from Roman oppression up to revolts before 70 AD. There was one in Acts 21:38 and some others and probably some today.

2 Thessalonians 2:4, which says this beast will exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped. Above God, or whatever people all over this world worship, this will be a world event for people of all religions. I agree the deception will be great and he may appear to many as Christ or what or who other people worship. I am sure many will accept him as the Christ.

In Revelation, we have Satan, the beast, the false prophet, and fallen angels on this earth, all working against God, Jesus, and all who have faith in them, it will not be a pleasant time. From the time Satan and his angels are cast down to earth and Satan gives his power, seat, and authority to the beast I only see 3.5 years not 7. And I do not see anyone taken out only the second coming of Jesus. 7 years only comes from Daniel 9 whether that turns out to be true or false. Hope this makes some sense.

God bless

RLW

Ronald,

I completely agree with your analysis of this Scripture passage.

The WAR has been won; individual battles are in our lives to determine our loyalties; as well as ensure rewards for faithful service.

Jesus is our advocate; and able to intercede to the Father on our behalf so that our prayers ultimately will be effectively in sync with His will for us and be answered accordingly. We are also in prayer as warriors ( Ephesians 6); as others are going through like tempations and trials ( 1 Peter 5:9). That is something needing to be emphasized; as a runner trains through exercise; we need to be vigilant in prayer for others as it helps to strengthen us as well as get our mind off our own troubles.

To effectively fight we need to actively resist sin; and check ourselves frequently. Any legal access by sin exposes a weak spot in our armor which the enemy is; no doubt looking forward to taking advantage of.

The truth is; as I see it there are few believers who take Satan seriously enough. We only have victory through Christ to effectively fight through the sword of the Spirit. As the other comment suggested this is hostile territory; another concept it seems few seem to grasp today. Remember though if you are being assaulted; it is because you are a threat to the powers of darkness; which I would say few believers are when it is easy to distract them with the endless sources of entertainment today.

It is Agape love; which gives you the strength; joy and victory over an enemy that seeks to steal; kill and destroy.

I call the enemy an "equal opportunity destroyer." He will use any means necessary; our own fears; other people; circumstances; ailments; etc. to try to stop others from hearing the Good News. He cannot stop the Lord's plans ultimately; and cannot take our rewards either unless we forfeit it ourselves ( Revelation 3:11).

Let us be as the Philadelphia church which has "little strength" but endures until He comes; and is able to enter through the open door at the Rapture.

Agape; Rich P

I fully agree brother S. Spencer with what you've presented with very little else that I could add. There are too many Christians who are unprepared for that 'spiritual' battle with the enemy of our souls. The battle that Jesus won for us was the ransom price, as required by the Father, that He paid on our behalf. Once we recognized that, believed it to be true & complete, & turned from our sin to a loving Redeemer, the battle for our souls was won.

Now if only our Enemy would surrender & leave all God's children alone, to walk in full joy & victory. But he doesn't & desires to make havoc of our lives, to doubt Christ, to test God's Love with sin, to tamper with worldly offerings, thus making us fit for God's punishment, even loss of physical life. Nothing would make Satan happier than to show to the world (which he always does), that the Power of Christ & His Sacrifice was frail, fictitious, & fanciful - that these Christians are simply powerless mindless zombies duped because of some emotive & mental imbalance. But Jesus gave us His Spirit giving us power from on high to live the life that cost the Son of God His Life that we might have victory over temptation, sin & the devil. That Ephesians 6 spiritual armor hasn't been created by us; it is given to us by the Holy Spirit in residence to all who belong to Christ. Whether we choose to use it against the enemy or not, is left up to us. And all those who belong to Jesus will want to use the armor that they're clothed with, not wanting to give the enemy any foothold to weaken their love for the Lord. Thank you again, brother.

True Christ vs. Imaginary (further examination of confessors vs. possessors)

The parable of the wheat and the tares should be alarming to everyone; and necessary instruction. ( Matt. 13:24-30). It is said that the wheat and tares are indistinguishable from one another before they are fully ripened. It appears from this parable that God has His purposes for these two groups to remain until the end of the age. Most probably; this is testing for those who ARE true believers to ensure that they won't fall for the temptations of this world as well as false or compromised doctines as well as a lifestyle of sin. Again; our society in general doesn't seem to be finding too many newcomers to churches because of it is a novel practice; or the world is being turned upside down ( Acts 17:6) which were characteristic of the church in Apostolic times.

However; the "damnable heresies" ( 2 Peter 2:1) are increasing along with 1 Timothy 4:1-2; etc. are invading former solid denominations so that a person can have a sense of respectability and pride in church attendance that tells them what they want to hear. Part of this; of course is the result of decades of permissive society and decline of morals; both within and without the church walls; I have stated before no doubt that the destruction of marriages is what I consider to be the primary initial cause especially post World War 2 of what we see today.

A primary example here is how people look at 1 John 2:1-2 on confession of sin and forgiveness. While it is true that Christ's death took care of all sin; past and future; we still have to confess sin; and if someone has the Holy Spirit in them they cannot be content with sin ( Galatians 5:17). a LIFESTYLE of sin such as continual adultery; theft; fornication; and other actions means that ultimately we don't trust God as to His warnings such as in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 as to reaping what we sow; and don't trust Him to be in the driver's seat in our lives and our souls.

Hi GiGi,

Thank you we are very close in our understanding, some of the prophecies I believe may have a two-fold fulfillment, but I do not see the 70-week have a future fulfillment. The way Gabriel gave this to Daniel I understand this prophecy as a renewed probationary period for Jerusalem and the Jewish people after the seventy years of the Babylonian exile, so God is giving them 490 years to straighten up and it was seventy consecutive weeks with no gap.

The thought that the abomination the antichrist does with defiling the temple with an idol like Antiochus Epiphanes did in 160's B.C. caused the desolation. The warning Jesus gave when they see the abomination of desolation flea Judea in my understanding what happened in 67-70 AD was a second fulfillment of what we see in parts of Dan. 8 and 11 it has been a while since I have studied those.

The abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel in Matt. 24: and Mark 13:14 Jesus said when they see this happen to flea Judea into the mountains. This is said to be when the antichrist defiles the temple and breaks the covenant in the middle of the week/7 years and the great tribulation begins. The abomination done by the antichrist will cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease.

If we look at Dan. 9:27 the way it is worded it is not the one who does the abomination that makes it desolate like in Daniel 11 and 12 the abomination that makes desolate. In Dan. 9:27 it is written like a penalty they were charged with, "for the overspreading of abominations" and the sentence given is "he will make it desolate" and I believe this he is Jesus, Matt. 23:32-39.

The same way God used Babylon to destroy Jerusalem He used Rome, the people of the prince maybe Tiitus because he did not want to destroy the temple.

Sorry, I got wordy.

God bless,

RLW

S.Spencer

I think you are correct on this. The people of the prince that is to come was (most likely) the Romans who surrounded Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and left it desolate, as Jesus prophesied in Mt. 23:38.

Hi S Spencer,

Didn't say anything about the people of the prince. Forgive me if I get this wrong; the people of the prince that shall come. "of the" connects the people and the prince so they were there at the same time since the people (the Roman army) was the one who destroyed the city and the temple.

How can "he" who is said to be the antichrist in verse 27 refer to the "prince" in verse 26 unless the antichrist was back in 70 AD.

I probably messed that up. I do not know how that is understood or explained.

God bless,

RLW

Christ: Real and imaginary

Previously; the concept has been introduced as to evidence of good or bad fruit as indicators of true or false salvation in earlier posts. The idea of self; somehow being able to adequately perform the behaviors such as illustrated in the Beatitudes on the Sermon on the Mount (i.e. be a peacemaker; meek; etc) basically demonstrates humanism in some form. I also mentioned the idea of "decisional regeneration". Often; there isn't much thought once we have "fire insurance" as it were; of such verses as 2 Corinthians 13:5 in testing ourselves to see if we are; indeed in the faith. Iron sharpening iron ( Prov. 27:17) is a way that God often uses to chastise us; which He does with all who are truly in the faith. We also should examine carefully the entire message of scripture; in this case the Beatitudes. Here it DEFINES who the meek are; those who are "despitefully used; wrongfully accused and otherwise abused" (my own rhyme giving the gist of the scripture). In the flesh we may put up with this; but expect someone to pity us; unlike what Jesus went through in Isaiah 53. To die for a friend is one thing; but for enemies is something else ( Romans 5:7-8).

The opposite also holds true; people somehow read the Gospels and think that Christ was all about bringing people together; peace and harmony. The unregenerate mind glosses over Matthew 10:34; 10:36; and the 10 times they tried to kill Jesus by various methods such as stoning and throwing him off a cliff BEFORE the cross. The last case was when Lazarus was raised from the dead when he along with Christ were in the final failed attempt at assassination. The world of course has trouble understanding the need for a bloody cross; of the fact that ALL of us are guilty for His death (at least the elect). Ultimately; to believe Christ is God (part of a triune God) has to be given by God ( Matt. 16:17).

Without God we can do nothing ( John 15:5). See also Hebrews 11:6.

Ronald

I agree The word confirm does not mean make, it shows us the covenant already existed.

However that fits the antichrist and his mission. Anti here means "instead of" and it can also mean against.

The Jews is still looking for their Messiah till this day and that's the primary role of the Antichrist.

Jesus hints at this in John 5:43.

So let's parallel the notion with other scriptures concerning him.

2 Thessalonians 2:4

"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Revelation 13:8-12.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If any man have an ear, let him hear.

He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

These verses along with Daniel 9 emphasizes deception by the Antichrist.

Goodnight brother.

Hi Ronald.

One other note I would like to mention.

The passage says; "AND THE PEOPLE" of the prince that shall come SHALL DESTROY THE CITY AND THE SANCTUARY;"

If that's Jesus then the Romans was his people!

Blessings Brother.

Hello Ronald,

I too have studied this chapter of Daniel more in the past few months, and I agree with you, that the Prince that is to come is Jesus, He appears in the beginning of the 70th week which began when He began His public ministry after HIs baptism. In the middle of the 70th week (after 3.5 years) the Messiah is cut off. But before His death He confirms the everlasting covenant made between Himself and the Father concerning salvation with many (thinking the last supper where Jesus introduced the new covenant made with His body and blood as the final sacrifice). This covenant is for all peoples not just the Jews. And for 3.5 eyars after His resurrection and ascension the apostles preached the gospel to the Jews, then they turned to the Gentiles. So 3.5 years - or 1 week in Daniel's vision. I do believe that the 70th week was completed in Jesus life and that the desolation of abomination was the utter destruction of Jerusalem and Judaism in 70 A.D. However, we can also consider if Daniel's prophecies may have , in part, double fulfillment - in the 1st century and in the last times.

I understand that you may not hold all of this viewpoint I have presented. It was good to read your query here about another interpretation of Daniel's prophecy other than the dispensational premillennial position presented by Chris and Spencer and others on this forum.

Thanks for presented another perspective.

Hi Ronald.

Thanks for your reply.

I have to disagree with you here.

I won't have time to get to far into it tonight and would actually like to visit this again towards the end of this series I started a couple of months ago.

But I will look at one aspect of your questions.

Your question concerning Daniel 9:27.

He shall confirm the covenant with many", COULD HE IN THIS VERSE FIT JESUS?

Let's look at that passage along with verse 26 and read it straight through.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: Pause.

Now here's another player mentioned midway through verse 26 and the focus doesn't come off him throughout vs 27.

Let's continue.

AND THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT "SHALL COME" shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. AND HE SHALL CONFIRM THE COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, AND FOR THE OVERSPREADING OF ABOMINATIONS "HE SHALL MAKE IT DESOLATE, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. .

This is clearly the prince that shall come.

If it was Jesus confirming the covenant then it would be Jesus that makes the overspreading of abominations that makes it desolate.

Besides it's Jesus that points to this event as being future in Matthews

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, SPOKEN OF BY DANIEL THE PROPHET, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Matthew 24:15

God bless.

Repent yes, be baptised of spirit yes, not of water.

Because Jesus became the Law, by fulfilling the Law of Moses (Jesus' Law = His Body; Moses' Law = Animals) we have to maintain body and dietary requirements of the Law. When people ignore the body and dietary requirements, they yield to sin. There is a false teaching that says we are covered by Grace. Further teaching is that since there is Grace, we do not have to obey. Obedience is always better than sacrifice and will always be. The Lord will never change, and His Word will always stand. Some try to justify their sins by trying to apply Grace; however, the wages of sin is death. Receiving Jesus is fully accepting Calvary, the Burial and Resurrection of our Savior: Jesus was obedient unto death, and we must learn to do the same. Dying to self is necessary to live the Holy lives the Father God desires from us.

Hey brother S Spencer,

I know this has been discussed before and we have different understandings, but just have a couple of thoughts to consider, I will not go over all this prophecy just the first of 9:27.

If I am correct, it is thought the 69th week ended when Jesus' ride into Jerusalem fulfilling Zech. 9:9. Dan. 9:26 says 69 weeks unto the Messiah, should we look over the 3.5 years from when Jesus was baptized and anointed with the Holy Spirit? Look at the multitude that met Him when He rode in, they knew who He was, He came for the lost sheep of Israel.

The antichrist will make a covenant with Israel. We go to Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: So here we have the last week/7 years and he is said to be the antichrist.

"He shall confirm the covenant with many", could he in this verse fit Jesus? Psalms 105:8-11 Isaiah 42:6 Isaiah 49:8 Isaiah 49:6 Romans 15:8 Galatians 3:17 Hebrews 13:20 I could list many more. The word confirm does not mean make, it shows us the covenant already existed. Confirm means to strengthen, to be stronger.

God made a covenant with Abraham and Abraham said God would provide Himself a Lamb, Genesis 22:7-8, was Jesus this Lamb, Isaiah 53:7 John 1:29 Revelation 5:6. This covenant is with many, Zechariah 2:11 Isaiah 53:11 Matthew 20:28 Matthew 26:28 Romans 5:15,19. Jesus was sent to confirm the promise/covenant made unto Abraham, Romans 15:8. Could Jesus be this he?

"In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" Sacrifice and Oblation, the first word is talking about the daily sacrifices, the Tamid, the morning and evening lamb the same time Jesus was on the cross 9 AM the first to 3 PM the last. Then the second word refers to all of the other offerings presented to the Lord.

Do you think the sacrifice and oblation was designed by God to completely cease upon the finished work of Jesus on the cross? Hebrews 9.

God bless,

RLW

Hi 510.

"The Lord has won the battle for us".

You may not find it written like that in the scripture.

However that fact to be true but the battle isn't over as long as we're in the world.

Scripture records the end and all things will be made new.

We still have our adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour as mentioned in 1 Peter 5:8.

We also have this flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would as mentioned in Galatians 5:17.

In John 16:33 Jesus says; "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world".

Jesus said in John 18:36. "MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD:

There's a heavenly kingdom yet to come!

Today he's calling out a people unto himself.

We were redeemed from this foreign cursed land by the precious blood of Christ as Peter mentioned in 1 Peter 1:17-19 as well as them of old who came before us as mentioned in Hebrews 11:13.

With that being said we are to be ambassadors for Christ. One who goes to a foreign country to do the business of he who sent you,

Satan is the prince of this world we live in.

I hope this helps and perhaps others would like to add,

God bless.

If the Lord has won the battle for us, why do we need to be armed, always ready to engage battle?

Eph 6:10-17 and in 2 Cor 10:3-4.

I understand it's a spiritual battle, a battle nonetheless.

Hi Blmrwm,

Divination is something we are not to get into you can open doors to things you do not want to even think about dealing with. It is the means of foretelling future events or discovering things secret with the aid of witchcraft, sorcerers, stars, and other mystical things we have been told to stay away from. Here are a few verses, Lev. 19:26-31 Lev. 20:6 Num. 22:7 Deut. 18:9-14

Many people do not believe these things exist but believe me they do. Saul did this 1 Sam. 28:7-25. You can also see in the NT, with a slave girl in Acts 16:16-18 and a man named Simon in Acts 8:9-24

I hope this little bit helps.

God bless,

RLW

Blessings Nstew,

Images are perceived, not known. knowledge cannot deceive, but perception can. God is omniscient, thus He does not perceive.

The Bible correctly says that God is Spirit and that Spirit gives birth ONLY to Spirit, and flesh gives birth ONLY to flesh. How then can God (Spirit) make flesh and blood when it creates ONLY Spirit?

The Bible also states that God is Love; therefore Love and Spirit are One. Thus Love (Spirit) Creates Itself and nothing but Itself. This means God could not be the Author of flesh and blood, and fear and hate.

The Bible also states that the Spirit is Truth. God is also eternal and changeless, and whatever is true is eternal and cannot change or be changed. Spirit is therefore unalterable because it is already perfect. But the mind mind can elect what it chooses to serve, the only limit put on its choice being that we cannot serve two masters; Spirit AND flesh, Love AND fear, Truth AND deception etc.

God creates only the eternal and not that which can change with time, to wither away and die. God is Life, not death. There is no death authored by God, because what God created shares His life. There is no death because an opposite to God cannot and does not exist. God is not the author of fear, we are; we have chosen to create and think unlike Him and therefore have made up this insane world filled with fear for ourselves.

I've said the following before, and will repeat: Anything that comes from God must be exactly like Him. God could not create anything that is not perfect, or else He wouldn't be perfect. The logic of this is flawless. If God is perfect and eternal, then by definition, anything He creates would ALSO have to be perfect and eternal.

God Is

Peace

Explain Divination please.

Hi Jimbob.

Oops I stated; "I believe Daniel 8:23-25 describes the rise and first half of the 70th week"

I left out Antichrist. I meant to say I believe Daniel 8:23-25 describes the rise od the Antichrist and first half of the 70th week.

Therefore he comes at the beginning of the 70th week but the Great tribulation starts mid week.

God bless

Hi Jimbob.

I also agree and hold to the outline Brother Chris gave on the 70 weeks but I term "the great tribulation" as the 2nd half of the 70th week as you do. "3 and a half years."

I believe in Mathew 24:15-16 and Mark 13:14 Jesus describes the abomination of desolation as the beginning of the Great tribulation. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.

I believe Daniel 8:23-25 describes the rise and first half of the 70th week.

"And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, AND BY PEACE SHALL DESTROY MANY: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

Also we see this false world peace mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5:3.

We see today an urge to leave the narrow gate and merge other religious practices and religions into the Church.

The Nation of Islam uses the Bible and false so called Christian preachers to bridge the gap of their version of Islam and Christianity today.

The Antichrist is coming to set himself up above ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD.

2 Thessalonians 2:4.

"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

God bless.

Hi Jimbob. Getting first to Daniel 9:26,27, I guess my understanding of the appearance of the "prince", ie. the Anti-Christ is somewhat different to yours. In the Daniel passage, the way I read it (by my paraphrasing v 27) is:

'And he, the Anti-Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for seven years (that missing week of the seventy weeks of years). And in the midst of that seven years (i.e. at the 3 1/2 year point), he shall cause the Jewish sacrificial system & oblation offerings (which he probably re-instituted as part of that covenant he made with them), to be terminated & spread his own abominations in their place. And this he does until the completion of all things (could this be when Christ returns with His heavenly armies?) which includes the pouring out of God's final Judgement upon the desolate (on those that are 'desolate', in 'horror', as the Hebrew 'shamem' indicates for this verse).'

You understand that the Anti-Christ appears 'mid-week'. I read it that he appears at the beginning of the 'week' ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3: first the falling away & then the revelation of the man of sin, then 'the day of Christ' (His appearing for battle) will commence. Therefore, at the start of the seven year Great Tribulation period, the falling away, the man of sin appears, he reneges on his deal with Israel, then 'after the tribulation of those days' ( Matthew 24:29), the spectacular & frightening display from the universe, & the return of Jesus Christ. So, I see that the Great Tribulation begins right at the beginning at the appearing of the Anti-Christ, where the One or whatever entity that was thus far restraining him, is removed, & God's Anger is unleashed on an unbelieving, Christ-rejecting World.

Your reference to Matthew 24:4-14 as being the 'first 3 1/2 year period, I see as the condition of the world & the sufferings of believers at this present time (i.e. from Jesus' day till the present). And this continues until Matthew 24:15. Blessings Jimbob.

Chris thank you for your response. I do agree with you in most of your comment, but I don't agree the great tribulation is a 7 year time period.

If we look at ( Mt. 24:15,21) What starts great tribulation according to these verses? The abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. That would be when the antichrist, the son of perdition exalteth himself above all that is called God in ( 2 Thess. 2:4) This happens in the midst of the week in ( Dan. 9:27) The midst is the halfway point, Right?

( Dan. 11:36-39) These verses call him "the king". v36 tells us ""and he shall (exalt himself), and (magnify himself) above ever god, and shall speak marvellous things (against the God of gods)".

Th antichrist is given power to continue forty and two months which is 3 1/2 years in ( Rev. 13:5-8) v5 tells us the time period is forty and two months 3 1/2 years. v6 tells us "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God". v7 "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them". This happens during the last 3 1/2 years which is shortened for the elect's sake in ( Mt. 24:22) Just a little farther down the chapter in ( Rev. 13:11-15) we see the deadly would healed, him doing great wonders, preforming miracles to deceive even the elect if possible. Then there's ( Rev. 13:15-18) The last 3 1/2 years will be the time of the mark of the beast.

Chris if this is the correct interpretation and I do believe it is, then that means ( Mt. 24:4-8) (9-14) "the beginning of sorrows" is the first 3 1/2 year period, (and in the midst) the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place which will start great tribulation, the last 3 1/2 year period ( Mt. 24:15,21).

Then we see how God shortened those days for the elect's sake in ( Mt. 24:29-31) v29 "Immediately after the tribulation". v30 "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory". v31 "and they shall gather together his elect".

Blessing to you Chris.

True Christ vs Imaginary

The bulk of this discussion is focused on men who profess to believe as a Christian and who are seeking faith as a means to an end. This; in my opinion is far more insidious; and leads to greater judgment than the average pagan who overtly worship false gods. We have discussed Lot's wife; and of course in New Testament times we have warnings such as Hebrews 10:29 to seriously consider as well as the previous verse. We have more than the law now; we have the Bible; the written testimony of God with His redemptive plan for us.

Part of the problem; as I have pointed out a number of times is the concept of "decisional regeneration". We can follow the admonition of Romans 10:9 and attest to the veracity of John 3:16 and a few other basic verses on salvation for a number of reasons; but apart from a transformation through the Holy Spirit and God drawing a person toward repentance we are NOT saved. This concept is found in 5 scriptures as either granting or leading someone to repenetance (see 2 Tim. 2:25; Romans 2:4). Two types of sorrow are mentioned in 2 Corinthians 7:10; godly and worldly sorrow. The end result is either spiritual death or life. (compare Peter to Judas Iscariot after Gethsemene; and until His crucifixion for examples of these two types of sorrow). I would go farther though; some of us haven't even considered the consequences of our sins and how it would affect us at the end of this life; and Judgment Day. Fear of hell may not save someone without an appreciation for the Holiness of God and how we have offended our Creator; which comes in a large part after we are saved (experientially slow for some; immediate for others). But true repentance gives us some realization of our state apart from Christ along with a new heart ( Ezekiel 11:19-20).

I will say that in today's world; it is going to get very costly to even confess Christ; assuming; of course it is real church that we are declaring allegiance to