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When we die, it is said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. If we are already in heaven and dwelling with
the Lord, what is the purpose of our fleshly bodies being raptured later on. Do we need the old bodies for the new heaven and
earth. Thank you for any answer.
Didn't you say you do not care to discuss Salvation?
I believe in the pre-trib rapture but I hope He tarrys so many more can hear this msg like the one you just gave!!
God bless.
The nation of Israel From Abraham to the cross, stood in a very particular situation as the custodians of the gospel. Just like the churches and congregations during the New Testament upnuntil the beginning of the great tribulation have been the custodians of the gospel.
We are living in a time, I believe, when the first shall be last, and the last shall be first.
Thank you for the reply. I will consider what you have said to me.
I will take what you say to heart but not engage further.
Deuteronomy 12:15
I did reply back to you that I had searched Scripture about the millennium being on earth and I changed my mind and concurred with you.
As to your reply concerning the Scripture you sent to me, we will just have to leave it as such. I do not wish to continue discussing such with you.
Check out how God instructed Noah after the flood in Genesis 9. the Israelites were commanded to consume a lamb on the night of the Passover before they fled Egypt. God instructed them to drain the blood of animals they eat in the cove4nant at Sinai. He also gave them quail to eat in the wilderness in addition to manna. AS far as the fellowship offering in Leviticus, they were to consume the meat with the priests within the tabernacle.
These are just a few examples. Do you have concordance? You can search in there under meat to find more Scriptural references.
The Bible is crystal that Anyone throughout history, Including those from national Israel is saved in exactly the same way. God chose them from before the foundation of the world, God paid for every one of their sins by enduring the wrath of God on their behalf, at some point in their life, God applies his salvation to them by giving them their resurrected soul. No one has ever been saved by keeping the Law. The Law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.
Once God has "saved" a person, that person will have an earnest ongoing desire to be obedient, both in practice and the doctrine, to everything the Bible declares as God would open their spiritual eyes to truth. Repentance will be a significant characteristic of the True Believer.
God's salvation plan is the same throughout history for every individual that He saves.
God does 100% of the work in saving anyone. Nothing that we do initiates, maintains, nor contributes to our salvation in any way.
God dose not save us based on how much we understand about be Bible. Look at the Ninevites. A broken and a contrite heart God will not despise.
The context is WHEN.
You said.
And that His salvation plan for both, i.e. the entire world, will be completed when the "fullness of the Gentiles be come in".
I have to disagree with you.
Verse 25 states; For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; THAT BLINDNESS IN PART IS HAPPENED TO ISRAEL, ( UNTIL ) the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
You have been in this discussion for a while. I don't know your full take on this topic. I haven't been able to follow much.
We will have to agree to disagree on this reply.
However I'll take this liberty to ask you a question.
According to your take, does Israel get saved by the Law or by the way we do.
"Justified by grace apart from the Law and nothing added?
God bless.
You stated.
Yes, God will do this for Israel. ( We do not know exactly when He will do this, perhaps pre-tribulation or earlier or perhaps just after the tribulations starts. We just don't know. But dispensationalist have pigeon holed this into their system in ways that are not explicitly stated in Scripture as to when this will happen.
You seem to be unsure of your viewpoint but rebuke the dispensational viewpoint.
I said in my earlier posts it's after the tribulation and wrath of the Lord.
Here's one of many reasons why.
We know it's not before the Tribulation because the verses I mentioned.
Ezekiel 36:30. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, THAT YE SHALL RECEIVE NO MORE ( REPROACH ) OF FAMINE AMONG THE HEATHEN.
The Antichrist is going to bring REPROACH
AND AN IDOL! Ezekiel 36:25.
HERE'S WHERE ASSESSMENT GETS CONFUSING.
In your second statement you stated.
"
As far as Ezekiel,
This is a figurative prophecy of God regathering all of Israel (Both houses) by resurrecting them to life when Jesus returns after the Tribulation is over. Or perhaps figuratively re-establishing Israel to the land that they have long been away from...( AND WE DO NOT KNOW EXACTLY WHEN THAT WILL BE (the second option.)
Now I know you say the Millennium is in heaven, but your second opinion you suggest the restoration of Israel is after the tribulation here on earth.
Do you separate the restoration of Israel from the Millennium?
Earlier in my replies I stated to you the Millennium is here on earth pointing you to Revelation 20:6-8.
What makes this dispensational is Jeremiah says God is going to do something in a NEW WAY. ( In terms of Knowledge and virteous practice.) Jeremiah 31:33-34.
That's what I believe. .
God bless.
Vsrse 11 shows the importance of the fear of the Lord; and verse 12 shows how praise with all our hearts will glorify His name forever (also see Exodus 20:3; Deut. 6:5).
Verse 13 shows how David was delivered from the "lowest hell". We certainly can't claim that hell wasn't referred to in the Old Testament with numerous references in Psalms; Deuteronomy; Proverbs and other scriptures. Once again verse 14 shows the type of "violent men" that pursued David; on and off throughout his lifetime; some cases of which later on were a chastisement due to David's transgressions; such as 2 Samuel 12:9-12). Perhaps verse 16 referring to the son of thy handmaid means that David's mother was still alive at the tie of this writing; I am not sure.
The Psalm ends with David reflecting on God's mercy and longsuffering characteristics. The last verse reminds us of Psalm 23 where a table is presented before our enemies ( Psalm 23:5).
We see in the inception of the Psalm in the first 4 verses characteristics of those which are of a "broken and contrite" spirit as Psalm 51 also describes. There is a "poor and needy" attitude (verse 2) and an attitude of submission as a servant (see verses 2 and 4). Finally; we see the characteristic of mercy in verse 3 as there apparently is a daily petition of crying to God.
The concept of trust in verse 2 is something that should be pondered more frequently as our attitude there affects how confident we are to God being faithful to meet our needs as well as working all things to the good for those who love Him (see Romans 8:28).
These characteristics allow us to converse and plead with God to attend to our requests (verse 6) and to answer in the day of trouble (verse 7). This is contrasted with such verses as Micah 3:4 and others which show the Lord will not hear the cry of the wicked in the day of their calamity because they are trying to avoid the consequences of their sins and sadly are too late for His saving Grace. Therefore; we must heed to not blowing God off; thinking that His patience will endure until we decide we are ready to "accept" Him. Salvation involves a relationship on HIS TERMS and according to His sovereign will and plans; of which we only can see a glimpse. These stipulations also are predicated on worshipping the true God (verse 8) and not the idols that other nations extol at their own peril ( Judges 16:29). In that story Sampson was shown in the end to know the Lord but reminds us of 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 of those who suffer loss of reward due to sinful living. The wicked there; nonetheless died in the midst of idol worship which should be a strong warning against any false religions today.
......But here is what happens satan comes and sows another seed in our heart....Then we are involved in war in heaven...Violence in heaven....The good seed the wheat is a baby Christ ...But the Tare becomes another satan..But Jesus said to let them grow together till the Harvest....Whosoever receives one such Child in my name receves me....The reason i say the wheat is a baby Christ is b/c the sower of that good seed is CHRIST THE BRIDEGROOM.....They don't call Jesus the bridegroom for nothin....God Almighty wants Jesus seed so the great promise of multiplication of Gods will happen....Children that cannot lie so he was their savior / father... Isaiah 63:8...Thus an ISRAEL of God....that are gonna be as the stars of heaven....Be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect...But this war is raging with in us ...Thus the wheat the baby Christ is in prison spiritually to the TARES....Thats y Paul was saying when i wd do good evil is present with me....I cannot do what i want to do O wretched man that i am. Alex GBU
I didn't send Chuck Missler article to you, I sent that to Chris in response to him sharing on the 7 Dispensations in scripture.
I didn't throw that at you as a rebuttal aa you do.
What I have been saying all along when you get in these disputes is that you "CAN'T GOOGLE WHAT YOU THINK THE EARLY CHURCH BELIEBELIEVED IN BECAUSE YOU CAN GET ARGUMENTS ON BOTH SIDES.
You have done this on this site on every doctrine disputed.
I questioned your studying because when you use scripture to validate your belief you come up with errors.
Especially in the old testament and in eschatology.
LET'S GET SOMETHING CLEAR HERE.
You're not on the defense here, We are.
You responded to me and labeled something I said as dispensational ans attacked dispensationalist by saying "You don't like the way they interpret the Bible Especially eschatology. "
I held back for a day and responded, Saying most of your colleagues here on this site falls in that category.
I believe you somewhat apologized.
Then comes Jimbob and David and you went full throttle on us.
I didn't respond to Jimbobs "ORIGINAL" post and still haven't because I didn't know if it was bait to seek and stamp out those who held the pre-trib view.
When I engage with someone's initial post on eschatology, The deity of Christ, or The Sabbath, I ask about their Soteriology views.
Most who have an agenda don't respond.
I also said you have made many errors in your going through the OT and We held back.
I knew a while back you wasn't sound in doctrine a while back When you said Joseph was given the firstborn blessing from Jacob.
And When you said the Menorah had 12 branches. "one for each tribe of Israel'.
I helped you with that through scripture. Not pounce on you.
We will talk later.
God bless.
Romans 11:25, 26 is NOT teaching Dispensationalism. Romans 11 is teaching that God is saving a remnant out of National Israel just as He is saving a remnant out of the Gentiles, i.e. the other nations of the world. And that His salvation plan for both, i.e. the entire world, will be completed when the "fullness of the Gentiles be come in".
Romans 11:26
Romans 11:26 And "so" all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Notice the word "so" in verse 26. The word "so" means "in this manner". It does NOT mean "then".
"All Israel" is referring to all of God's Elect from every nation including National Israel, as God sometimes uses the term, i.e. "the Israel of God", the "Jerusalem above". "All Israel" in verse 26 is not National Israel.
In our day, God is saving a remnant from every nation of the world "a great multitude that no man can number" Rev 7:9.
There is no future salvation plan involving Israel as a Nation. They stand on the same ground as every nation of the world, and have ever since the Cross.
The scriptures I quoted as some of the principles God lays down as to how we are to approach and interpret the Bible.
The entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 2 contrasts God's wisdom with man's wisdom. There are some here that seem to be applying man's wisdom as their first principle of Bible interpretation.
Don't fall into that snare. The Bible ALONE, The WHOLE Bible, is God's message for us TODAY. The Bible ALONE, the WHOLE Bible is its own interpreter. The further away from that principle we get the further we will be led astray in our understanding.
I know that those who call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses have their erroneous understanding of Colossians 1:15, "Who (i.e. Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature". The Greek word for 'firstborn' is 'prototokos' and when written of Jesus, it applies to His preeminence & highest rank of all creation, though He Himself was never created, because He was "begotten of the Father" ( John 1:14). Whereas the JW reads Colossians 1:15 as, "the first created of every creature"; removing the 'prototokos' & replacing it with 'protokitses'. This error then substantiates their belief that Jesus was merely a created Being from God, thereby nullifying His Divinity.
And we see this word, 'firstborn' appearing elsewhere in the New Testament, when referring to Jesus:
Romans 8:29: "firstborn among many brethren", referring to Jesus' preeminence as the 'elder Brother' of His many brethren, the Church. And it also speaks of Jesus' as being wholly Divine yet Him merging with humanity, thus the incarnate God becoming the 'first' in line of this new creation: i.e. we who are now His brothers & sisters have been given His Spirit to indwell us, making us a new creation in Christ Jesus (God's Spirit now residing in man)": 2 Corinthians 5:17.
Colossians 1:18: "firstborn from the dead". This means that Jesus was the first to rise from the dead with a resurrection Body & it will be when our bodies will be resurrected as His was - but He was our Forerunner in the resurrection. Though Lazarus & the many saints arose from the grave, they weren't given their new glorified bodies.
I hope this little extra study helps you Errol.
oops, I meant that Darby said that Jesus did not atone for our sins on the cross.
I guess I did add quite a bit more info. But there is so much more!
It is late. I'm off to bed. Talk more tomorrow.
Yes, God will do this for Israel. We do not know exactly when He will do this, perhaps pre-tribulation or earlier or perhaps just after the tribulations starts. We just don't know. But dispensationalist have pigeon holed this into their system in ways that are not explicitly stated in Scripture as to when this will happen.
As far as Ezekiel,
This is a figurative prophecy of God regathering all of Israel (Both houses) by resurrecting them to life when Jesus returns after the Tribulation is over. Or perhaps figuratively re-establishing Israel to the land that they have long been away from and we do not know exactly when that will be (the second option)
S. Spencer, it seems that you have listened to many dispensational teachers and so you are convinced of dispensational premillennialism, but have you every truly studied it: its origins, development in the 1800's, who Darby was like, what he taught. Did you know that said think Jesus atoned for sin on the cross. He said that Christians should not say the Lord's Prayer because it says 'forgive us our trespasses' and believers do not need to confess their sins to God, seek forgiveness and repent. So this is basically antinomianism. He said that the Plymouth Brethren Church in England was the only true church in all of Britain and denounced every denomination as being invalid. Did you know these things about the person whose tenets you follow?
so he needed to invent more doctrines such as multiple resurrections of the saints in order to find agreement in Scriptures. And so on and so on this continued until we today have a very convoluted and unsound theological system all to protect the pre-trib rapture doctrine Darby started with.
I believe Darby to be a false teacher whose system is heretical in many ways. For me, anyone who adheres to dispensational premillennialism follows Darby's doctrines. So, one should find out more about the person whose ideas they have adopted to be sure they are not following a false teacher. One wouldn't follow Joseph Smith who also was pre[trib rapture person, or Charles Taze Russell (JW) or the founder of the Seventh day Adventists. These all emerged at the time of Darby, and Darby and all of the others are false teachers whose doctrines one should not adhere to in any way.
I say all this to warn people to study about this. There is so much that is not right about Darby dispensational premillennialism.
Continued.
Ezekiel 36:24-32.
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
NOTICE VERSE 32.
Vs 32. Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
NOW REWIND A FEW VERSES AND READ Ezekiel 36:21-23.
WAS THIS FULFILLED IN THE NEWTESTAMENT? NO! ISRAEL COMMITTED ABOMINATIONS IN THE OT ON INTO THE NT AND STILL DOING IT TODAY.
WILL GOD FULFILL HIS UNCONDITIONAL COVENANT? YES.
WHEN? IN THE MILLENNIUM!
DID YOU NOTICE THE LOCATION THIS COVENANT WILL BE FULFILLED? EARTH.
( THAT IS DISPENSATIONALISM.)
We take those promises literal.
One of the worst and most dangerous heresies is to call God a liar and subscribe to replacement theology.
Romans 11:25-26. is DISPENSATIONALISM.
God bless.
In the Jn. 3 passage, Jesus was speaking of being born again, Not a redo of physical birth, which cannot happen. Flesh gives birth to flesh just once in one's life when they are physically born in the flesh. But Jesus was speaking of the rebirth as a spiritual rebirth, a coming back alive of our spirit and soul to become spiritually alive to God through Christ. This is why He said flesh gives birth to flesh and spirit gives birth to spirit. Things done in the flesh to please God and gain acceptance is not possible; one must be spiritually reborn by the Holy Spirit's work. So, He is saying that the Jn 6 is that it is truly only the Spirit who can impart eternal life and regenerate to life sinners dead in their sins. The flesh is profitless because won cannot use the flesh to reconcile oneself to God because we are dead in sin and our flesh is corrupted as much as our soul and spirit. We cannot bring anything of ourselves to God for acceptance. Only through the death and resurrection of Jesus in the flesh can we be redeemed.
And yes, God is Spirit from all eternity. Jesus was God from all eternity and with the Father and the Holy Spirit are spiritual in the One Being of the Godhead.
But, as the Scriptures I gave you, Jesus did come in actual flesh. Mary gave birth to a baby of flesh, bones, and blood. This was Jesus, God coming in a body of flesh. As the eternal Son of God, He is Spirit, but in His humanity, He is flesh.
This explanation does not align with your religious philosophy, so you reject it because you desire to fit Scripture into your religious mindset. Yet, by refusing to believe Jesus came in the flesh, then you are an antichrist and not a believer.
The good news is, you can always submit yourself to the truth of Scriptures and believe that Jesus was God in flesh, two natures in one Person who was crucified in the flesh, shedding physical blood and suffering physically emotionally and spiritually to save us who believe on Him.