Bible Questions & Discussion PAGE 323

When we die, do we go straight to heaven.

Or do we stay in the grave until Jesus 's

Return?????

Yes i have a comment about the restrainer the Tare, Satan's seed that wants to restrain the H.G. the wheat a baby Christ from bringing in the Kingdom....That was the very purpose of sowing the good seed in mans hearts that the Kingdom wd be born in us....The H.G. That Child of Promise But here comes satan with his demonic seed....Thus the restrainer is the Tare that wants to destroy the good seed...Paul refers to the Tare as another man in my members....Bringing me into captivity unto sin which is in my members....which is the Tare....Paul was involved in a warfare....The H.G. was the wheat a baby Christ....But the Tare wants to destroy the wheat....Thats y we must endure unto the end to be saved...The Wheat is a baby Christ simply b/c the sower of that good seed is Christ the bridegroom....And the Tare is a baby Satan...The restrainer ...Remember the dragon wanted to kill the woman and her Child...In Rev 12:10....But in the end he is killed, the dragon is satans seed....Now Paul refers to the Tare as a thorn in the flesh....But it was actually a Tare satan's seed....That was trying to restrain the Kingdom from coming to the man born again by this good seed....A kingdom seed....That incorruptible seed .....Its Kingdom against Kingdom as our lord said....He knew that we wd be involved in a warfare....And the avenger is satans seed....Unless you receive the Kingdom AS A LIL CHILD.

Rev.22:11 Tells us about the 2 seeds as the Tares and the wheat....One is always filthy and evil but 1 is always holy and righteous.....And this war is raging within us....Thats y Paul was saying when i wd do good evil is present with me....With my mind i serve the law of God but with my flesh the TARE ( his thorn in the flesh ) I SERVE THE LAW OF SIN....Thats y God cd not remove it....Thus we must endure to the end....When the Tares are gathered and burned....Then the wheat the Children of the Kingdom will reign with Christ.

Rev 12:5, Rev 22:11

Romans 7 :23

Wasn't Aaron more guilty than anyone else in this instance for making the golden calf as a god? Please help me understand how Aaron should not have been slain with the others who worshipped at the alter that Aaron built for this golden calf.

This is such an encouraging verse in God's word! This world is oftentimes so discouraging and the work of the Lord can become quite heavy and feel as if there is no reward in it.

I am so thankful God reminds us here that our work for Him WILL be rewarded! He is surely a God that understands our infirmities and our struggles!

So thankful to be one of His chosen ones! Thankful that He knows ALL! Thank you, LORD, for loving us so kindly and reminding us that our labour is not in vain!

Joesph,

When God is not answering our prayers there are a couple of things that might be going on. First, we are likely asking amiss, meaning we are asking outside of God's will. We are asking within our own will. James 4:3 says Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

God's ways are higher than our ways and God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts. We are finite and cannot see the entire picture but God can!

Secondly, we can hinder our prayer life with unconfessed sins. Psalms 66:18 says If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

Isaiah 59:2 says But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

These are two reasons that prayers are not answered...The first is in my opinion more often than the latter...

Another reason is...it is simply just not time yet! We always have to remember everything is in God's perfect timing! Not in our timing as I said previously, we cannot see the whole picture but God can!

So continue to pray and ask the Holy Ghost to lead you in your prayers or maybe just simply ask if your prayer is really within God's will.

God's unanswered prayers are sometimes His greatest blessings!

Oh yes thankyou ! Very helpful , thanks again .

Where is the Proverb thst states He who does not rule his own spirit is like a city without walls

Can someone please explain , Matthew chapter 17 verse 11 ? Jesus appears to be speaking of a future event , but then in verse 12 he says that Elias is come already . Thanks in anticipation .

so there was 42 generations from Abram to CHRIST .2. things i want to know ,how long was it from Adam to Abram? 2. how long from Christ to the present?

Can anyone please tell me what book has the devine order in it please. I know the dead in Christ will rise first & 7 yr Tribulation is after we are taken up to meet Jesus (not His 2nd coming) in clouds yet the rest is fuzzy & I can't find it. Thank you.

GiGi,

Thanks for responding. From a big picture perspective the true gospel is not about the political nations of the world in any sense. Although God is certainly concerned about everything that happens on this planet, and that includes the political nations. But not in respect to the gospel. The gospel is concerned about the spiritual warfare that exists between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan. And that is a spiritual warfare, and has nothing to do with political nations.

That said, the Nation of Israel was God's corporate representation of His kingdom during the Old Testament time beginning with Abraham. Just like the New Testament church was the corporate representation of God's kingdom during the church age.

Unfortunately, some want to make the gospel, a social gospel, or a political gospel.

The true gospel is the declaration of our terrible condition and situation before God, because of our sin and rebellion. And the incomprehensible mercy of God, at tremendous cost to himself, of providing a solution and unimaginably blessed inheritance for those whom He saves.

David,

Pt. 3

And it seems that some on this forum disapprove and criticize that I have researched a movement that isn't found in the Bible, but in recent church history. Why would they do this? Perhaps because one who investigates theories and belief systems may be able to shed some light on this theory that they do not wish to be exposed or maybe they are concerned that posting information from honest investigation may lead some away from dispensationalism. But I don't know really the reason I get so much negative remarks from some on here.

I do not criticize how others learn on here, but I do speak to what people do say with my responses. I do think that some may be taken aback by some of us, like you, me, Jimbob, who strongly disagree with dispensational tenets and also strongly hold to our post-Trib coming of Jesus. It seems that maybe they feel that their strong adherence to their beliefs from dispensationalism should just be accepted at face value and not be challenged. I think the cloth cuts both ways and those of us who step up to post should be willing to have their IDEA challenged w/o degrading opponents character, spiritual walk or maturity.

But I know that these topics are ones that dispensationalists feel very sensitive about. This is why I have not responded every time eschatology is presented on this forum. But I do post at times just to show that there are other viewpoints that contradict the dispensational viewpoint and to support others like you and Jimbob. I am pretty tough and can take criticism, but I will speak up when I think some critical statements are unfair or out of line.

Keep us the good work of taking every thought captive to the word of God, as I do, an many others on here do, too. It is so important to pray and allow the Holy Spirit to develop in each of us the mind of Christ . By doing so, we will know that truth that is only in Him and rightly interpret Scripture and have the freedom to search for better understanding.

David

cont.

-Jesus will reign during the millennium on the physical throne of David in Jerusalem as Israel is the top nation in the world

-Israel and millennium saints will be resurrected at the end of the millenium

-there will be mortal people living on the earth during the millennium who will procreate, live a long life, and die.

-Jesus came initially for the Jews, not for the Gentiles (some believe this ) so the Gospels are not "to" Gentile believers as far as applying directly to our lives

-There are unfulfilled promises God made to the Israelites concerning possessing all the lands promised

-God will fulfill these outstanding promises in the millennium

-Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and the other apostles were only for the Jews (some believe this)

-the to was applied to Israel only, not to Gentile believers (some believe this).

-only the Epistles of Paul apply to directly to Gentile believers (some believe this)

-other epistles and the Gospels are directed to the Jews only, so they do not apply to us Gentile believers (some believe this)

-that dispensational applications to Bible interpretation are the true way to "rightly divide the Scripture" (some believe this)

I know that there are probably many more beliefs peculiar to dispensationalist, but these are the ones I have read represented on this forum.

I am hard pressed to find firm biblical support for any of these tenets of dispensationalism. To me, they are all pre-conceived assumptions and speculation superimposed onto the Scriptures . This system uses selective Scripture verses that are twisted and added to to fit their belief system, not having the Scripture form one's beliefs first and foremost.

So, since I have just recently learned of these beliefs, I have endeavored to learn more about them, how they came to be, through whom they were promulgated, what was the background of these promulgators, how they were disseminated and reinforced over time, etc.

cont.

David, Amen to that. We want to have the mind of Christ concerning our approach to Scripture interpretation and end times beliefs. When I read in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John what Jesus said about His second coming when asked by His disciples, He never once spoke of a pre-trib rapture. If this was true, He would have reassured the disciples that they would be rescued by Him prior to the Tribulation that was sure to come at the end of time. But He did not. He said repeatedly that those who endure to the end will be saved.

I, too, only knew of the pre-trib rapture doctrine (which I heard in my early 20's). It seemed a possibility then, but the more I read on the end times I soon came to reject this teaching because I could not find it mentioned of supported in Scripture anywhere. And from there, I believed what Jesus said in the Gospels concerning His return.

It wasn't until I came on this site a year or so ago that I was exposed to dispensationalism that ingterpreted that:

- the 70th weeks of Daniel was not fulfilled and is to be fulfilled during the 7 year tribulation.

-that God put a "pause" in the prophetic clock at the 69th week

-that Jesus offered the earthly kingdom to the Jews but they rejected it and HIm

-therefore, God went to plan B: Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection to save both Jews and Gentiles who believe

-the church age is part of plan B

- there is a distinction between Israel and the church and it needs to remain so as a separation for the rest of history

-the church will be raptured pre-tribulation (resurrected NT saints and Christian believers only)

-the Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth with the rapture of the Church

-the Tribulation begins the prophetic clock again for the 70th week to be fulfilled

-the Tribulation saints will be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation

-Israel will be the predominant nation in the world with renewal of the sacrificial system and all peoples will live by the OT

Because of what I'm saying about the churches of our day, I want to provide what I see from my own personal experience as well as what I have learned from others about church history and particularly the last 50-75 years or so. I am old enough to have observed some of this. Let me say emphatically that my observations and experience should never be a basis for scriptural interpretation in any sense. We can interpret our observations and experience from scripture. Never the other way around.

We can see from scripture that the church even very quickly after the cross began to depart somewhat from truth. We read this in Galatians and in the seven churches in Rev 2 and Rev 3. The Bible speaks for itself regarding this.

The church had gone very much astray by the time of the Reformation, when God raised up faithful men like Luther, Calvin, Knox and others along with the invention of the printing press that made Bibles available to the masses. Many of the Creeds and Confessions that define post-reformation churches and denominations were developed at that time and made giant steps toward correcting some of the false teachings prevalent in that day. But they were not infallible.

Unfortunately up until and including our day, very little in-depth Bible study and questioning by the churches of those Confessions has been done. And even worse, they came to have an authority in the churches equal to or more so than the Bible itself. But despite all this, God was very patient and longsuffering with the churches in continuing to use them as His primary means of getting the Gospel out into the world.

Today, however, if we examine what the churches are doing and teaching we find that the Bible has essentially lost its authority as we see activities and teachings within the churches that would never have been tolerated 50-75 years ago. And virtually every church teaches a do-it-yourself Gospel where WE need to DO something to become saved.

More later perhaps.

An analysis of "the Lie" in 2 Thessalonians 2:11.

1 Timothy 6:9 talks about traps which "drown men in perdition." Let us consider for a moment how things will stand after the Rapture of the Church (assuming of course in a Pre-Trib rapture viewpoint). Before we tangle with what seems to be an impossible situation for those remaining on the earth to believe what just happened is anything other than calling His saints home to glory; let us rewind back to the time of Christ. In this time there clearly were many miracles which could only be attributed logically to God. (see John 9:32 and the healing of the blind man). Nonetheless; Satan (or Beelzebub which is a reference to an equally evil entity) was attributed to such things by the blind Pharisees. ( Matthew 12:22). This was despite the obvious fulfillment of prophecies which pertained to Christ from the Old Testament; not to mention his own prophetic warnings of crucifixion to come as well as the Resurrection seen by 500 ( 1 Cor. 15:1-11). Such hatred shows the blindness of the minds of men by the god of this world ( 2 Cor. 4:4); as well as our own state apart from the illumination of the Holy Spirit to such matters.

So looking ahead to the beginning of the Tribulation; we should expect more of the same. Evil will be unrestrained at that time unlike any time before or since ( Matt. 24:21). Since all but 8 died in Noah's flood; we expect therefore that the demons being loosened will be the thing making things worse since a number actually will physically survive to the end. A short inspection of the media today should clearly indicate how entrenched images of occult and Satanic worship has become acceptable to the mainstream. When we see undeniable and verifiable signs such as fire coming down from heaven that the False Prophet performs; it is no surprise the world embraces it; and worships the image (as well as likely creating it themselves perhaps on their own computers).

Part 2: Attempting to forestall the inevitable.

IT seems that with the downplay (if even being a factor at all) of coming to saving faith of repentance for individuals another issue is being unwilling to confront national evils which we are called to sound out against as per Ezekiel 33. There are several reasons for this; one being fear of societal disapproval or persecution; going against the grain of many who are rather lukewarm about the subject and the most insidious perhaps being our own tendancy to be overcomfortable as the pot approaches boiling as we see in the case of Lot. James 5:3 should be carefully read; as many think that through their own efforts they can make it through the Tribulation; or even be able to endure things before that should there be a crash in the metals market; or perhaps something else such as nuclear fallout that could render such wealth useless. There needs to be a healthy balance between wise prudence in resources and hoarding; the former being ideally used for other saints in a time of crisis as was in the book of Acts; and the latter being a tendency to fall into based on political persuasion being set above spiritual wisdom.

As with my first part in this series; it should be obvious that the crap will hit the fan; so to speak. Or; as I put it God is much more longsuffering than I am; considering the long list of abominations our own nation has committed; although hardly alone in such actions we have been the catalyst for expanding these horrors worldwide (abortion; pornography; illicit drug trade).

Whether we are Babylon or not; or a part of the final world system it is evident that destruction when it comes will be so speedy that there is no remedy to avoid the famine; plagues; war and demonic infestation of the earth at that time short of Divine Intervention and protection.

Satan will have his day in the spotlight; so let us work while it still is day. ( John 9:4).

The attempt to forestall the inevitable.

It seems; at least from much of my personal experience that kicking that perverbial can down the road is a rather common tactic for the unbeliever; namely that of death and judgment before our maker. Of course there are many other techniques as well; such as minimalizing the true hopelessness of our sin nature; attempting to steer all conversation on the evils of the world apart from our own accountability and sometimes obvious vices.

One of the blinders that we often embrace from our youth is some sentimental view of those of our own family or friends who have passed on; as being somehow in a better place. We do ourselves no favors here; for Jesus Himself didn't demonstrate any mercy for the rich man with the very real tale of the Lazarus Parable. It is the Lord which works in us who shine forth as the stars as part of the Body of believers which is the significant part of every saint of God that lasts on into eternity; albeit with different levels of glory and each being uniquely created to represent a particular blend of characteristics. We see this in the spiritual giftings in this life. Lest we "hyperspiritualize" any of this stuff; ALL aspects of a redeemed life from work to family to recreation as well as our "spiritual" duties such as witnessing; scripture reading; prayer; etc. are called to be a representative display of Christ's character in our lives.

Another important point here is that Christ was a man of sorrows ( Isaiah 53:3); as well as all other characteristics that chapter describes in great detail. There were many who admired him as a great teacher or prophet ( Matthew 16:13-20); but only those that understood that He was the Son of God (or the "I am") were truly saved. This shows why many didn't remain with Him; He wasn't afraid to challenge those would be disciples ( 2 Timothy 4:10; Luke 18:23; Matt. 19:22).

Another problem exists when we are afraid to confront national sins. See part 2)

This verse is like the Lord commanding me knowing what I am going through at this time

GiGi,

I am not at all familiar with history of Dispensationalism. But what I know of its teachings and from what I read in comments here of those that hold that position, I am quite convinced, as you are, that it is contrary in many ways, especially regarding the future of National Israel and the events of the end times, to what God declares in the Bible .

The divergent views that I read hear regarding the end times and some other doctrines are, I believe, in large part due to a failure to interpret scripture using the principles that God lays down for us in the Bible itself. And instead to a high degree, substitute man's wisdom which will ultimately lead us further away from the truth.

May God in His Mercy open all of our eyes to His Truth as we continue to prayerfully compare spiritual things with spiritual.

Spencer

I feel the same as you do about those who believe the system of dispensationalism. To me this is a theory that seeks Scripture to verify it rather than begin with Scripture to know what it teaches. John Nelson Darby needed to continue to create new co trine to add to the pre-trib rapture theory to make it work in regards to Scriptural support. I believe that he created a system that appealed to "itching ears". When I read both the Old Testament and the New Testament concerning these things I just cannot see where this theory hold to the truth of the Word.

Chris,

If I may quote from your comment to which I am replying:

"When the Spirit is taken away so that the Great Tribulation might commence on Earth, the Church must also be taken, or else we have a Church without the Holy Spirit."

While it was your intent I'm sure to teach otherwise, you have caught what I believe the Bible is actually teaching in your statement. I went through this in a prior comment but allow me to repeat. This is in part a very sad story.

We first must understand that when God speaks of the "church" or "His people", God can be referring to either the churches and congregations as the corporate representation of God's Kingdom made up of both Wheat (True Believers) and Tares (those that appear to be true believers but are not) ( Matt 13:24-30,36-43), or He may be talking about the "eternal church" that includes only True Believers... this depending on the context of the passage.

During the Church Age, God the Holy Spirit was present and active in the churches that were attempting to be reasonably faithful to the Bible as they were commanded to bring the Gospel both within the church and to the world. However at the Beginning of the Great Tribulation, which I believe is the period we are in today, God the Holly Spirit has been removed from the corporate churches and Satan, coming as an angel of light, has actually been installed to rule there ( 1 Pet 4:17). True Believers have been commanded to flee the churches ( Matt 24:16) , and God is only saving OUTSIDE the churches as the Gospel goes forth from individual Believers and ministries not associated with a church. And during this time of God's Final Harvest, also called the Latter Rain, God saving a "great multitude that no man can number" ( Rev 7:9).

Immediately after the Great Tribulation, Christ will return to perform the Resurrection, and the Rapture, and the final destruction of Satan and all of the unsaved.

I think this is the only solution that harmonizes these and all the verses.

Eschatology.

Don't fill up your cup.

Leave room for learning.

When we study scripture it harmonize itself into doctrines such as theology, Bibliology, Anthropology, Soteriolog, Pneumatology, Ecclesiology, ect..

One that is not studied much is "Israelology" That's one of many reasons there is so much confusion in eschatology.

When you dive right into eschatology and neglect "Israelology" and what the old testament has to say about End times our understanding becomes a battle!!

Revelation is nearly impossible, Matthew 24 and 25 becomes confusing.

So we topic search to fill in the blanks. When we do we're going to find Pre, Mid, and Post- Tribulation and Millennium views.

By error the shaping and building of some understanding of scripture starts.

Some attempt to shape the rest of God's word around their eschatology!!

It becomes dear to them because if it doesn't hold water their whole theology sinks.

Now faulty hermeneutics comes into play. To fit their eschatology into their theology they have to do a lot of spiritualizing scripture.

Mostly the Post-trib group is guilty for this.

Some say we're already in the Millennium, "Christ is going to rule in our hearts." However there is diverse views in this group.

This one is new to me!!

Some believe in the Millennium, but entirely ignore the old testament and say the Millennium is in heaven!

And they say the rapture is at the end of the world During the time of judgment.

If the Millennium is in heaven and the rapture is afterwards ( End of world )

How are you caught up to meet the Lord in the air? or Caught up at all? Where are you going? Your already there!

My point is it is their entire framework that rides on their eschatology.

Everything else is built on it.

So to them to deny the Literal Millennium here on earth, Pre-trib, Diversity of Saints, OT Saints, Church, Tribulation Saints. is Paramount.

This happens when we deny Israel's righteous place in God's program.

GB

I lost my husband on December 28, 2022, So I am on my own living on social Security, I know it will be hard having a house payment and car payment, that's Ok. But I am 76 years old and I don't like asking my family for money. Is that being pride, I know God doesn't like pride?

People knew the Truth thousands of years ago , many of them couldn't even read or write and yet they still had an understanding of and a relationship with , their Creator . We don't need the internet , we need the Bible , Old and New . That's all . All those thousands and thousands of people who came before us didn't have the internet . Their understanding was probably better than ours because they had a clear and focused vision of the Truth without a load of erroneous or irrelevant or innacurate information . The devil likes to distract us and in this age that we are in now , he's doing very well for himself it seems .

Matthew 13:24-30

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:36-43

Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one. The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

1 Corinthians 2:13

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Matthew 13:10-17

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Matthew 13:34,35

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Psalms 78:2

I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

Habakkuk 2:3

For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

Hi Gigi.

Don't mean to upset you.

Every bit of what I just posted was off the Internet.

I was on my way to the airport and I forgot to give the purpose or exercise I was trying to display.

You can get arguments for each side on the internet.

This is not to authenticate a view.

But this is to show the internet is not the way to go on this topic.

Why not break down scripture when you reprove someone, you might help them that way.

But if you say, "They didn't hold that view in the early church then it shows you don't trust your own studies or haven't studied "SCRIPTURE". There's a different in studying doctrine and studying scripture.

Good night.

S. Spencer,

As you suggested, using Google is not a good way to prove a doctrine.

However, as you have done here, we can use an internet search to find our more about what history shows us from the time of the apostles up to now.

I have read all 9 posts and have replied to some. I don't think that you have proven that more than few isolated people believed in pre-trib rapture over the course of Christian history. Some of your citations do not speak to a pre-trib rature, but to the one and only Second coming of Jesus after the tribulation. So I am unconvinced by your reasoning here. I continue to hold to the post-tribulation second coming of Jesus and the one and only resurrection and glorification of believers bodies at that time. I believe the trumpet call in Mat. 24:29-31; Rev. 11:15; 1 Thess 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:51 all refer to the same trumpet call-the seventh and last trumpet that bring an end to the Tribulation and the beginning of Jesus' reign with the saints.

Thanks for taking the time to bring these posts forward. As I said to Chris, I don't prefer to address eschatology because it usually brings division. And I gave my reasons for responding to this thread also. I do not wish to continue to hash this out. I respect your right to your viewpoint, and I hope you will respect my right as well.

Dear S. Spencer

Identifying a few people pre-Darby that taught a pre-trib rapture does not show that this view was widely held. Millions upon millions throughout the centuries adhered to only one coming of Christ at the end of the age after the tribulation. The miniscule percentage of those who thought like Darby are very rare, not common.

But I am willing to listen to your thoughts on this.