Bible Questions & Discussion PAGE 324

Just because these believers in a time of widespread persecution expected the return of Jesus anytime reflect the emminent expectation of pre-trib rapture does not equate them.

These believers were being persecuted and thought, as you stated, that they were experiencing the Tribulation that Jesus promised to "cut short". Their expectation has nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture because they thought they we in the Tribulation already and were anticipating Jesus coming and therefore, "cutting short the tribulation"

2 Thessalonians 2:2-3 even says "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: For that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition:"

These verses warn believers about those who say that the coming of Christ is eminent!

S. Spencer, this does not speak of a pre-trib rapture because it says plainly,"in the end" which is the end of history-Jesus' second and last coming.

Dear S. Spencer.

In Revelation, when it speaks of the heavens being rolled up like a scroll, this is the coming of Christ after the Tribulation. He then begins to pour out the wrath of God on all those unbelieving on the earth. Of course the righteous have been resurrected and changed and reside with Jesus at this time, thus being spared the wrath of God. But these righteous were not raptured before the Tribulation, as you assume.

S. Spencer, can you give the exact quote and reference for Irenenaeus?

S. Spencer, this citation does not mention a pre-trib rapture, but a pre-millennium coming of Christ and that the judging of the saints in heaven (or the place this person indicates) will take three and half years. NO mention of this being during the Tribulation.

So it proves nothing of what you are saying.

S. Spencer

Neither of these citations in this post speak to a pre-trib rapture, but to the second coming at the Last which is the seventh and final trump in Revelation that ushers in the second and only return of Jesus after the tribulation.

Hi Gigi.

You said 99.9 percent of the early church believed in a post trib.

How did you come up with those numbers?

Here's one reason we shouldn't rely on Google as a sure way to build doctrine.

Part 1 of 9.

No, you didn't miss it. Neither did Darby. The article title is not suggesting that the Rapture occurred before the days of John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), but rather is pointing out that a belief in the Rapture of the Church (in particular, a pre-tribulation Rapture) existed and was taught before Darby's birth. As an example of the allegation that belief in a pre-tribulation Rapture is relatively recent, Michael Bird wrote, "The pretrib view did not appear on the scene of church history until J.N. Darby in the 1830s."[1] In this article, we will examine some of the references in biblical works pre-dating Darby that either explicitly taught or appear to teach a pre-tribulation Rapture.

See part 2.

Part 2.

Early Witnesses

After the time of the apostles, a number of writings indicate belief in the imminence of Christ's return, which is consistent with pre-tribulationism. Clement of Rome (35-101), Ignatius of Antioch (died 110), The Didache (a late first-century anonymous Christian treatise), The Epistle of Pseudo-Barnabas (circa 70-130), and The Shepherd of Hermas (second century) all reference Christ's imminent return. Even though it appears that the apostolic fathers were largely post-tribulational (because they believed the persecution they were enduring was the tribulation itself), they held to the doctrine of imminency. J. Barton Payne (a post-tribulationist) concluded that "belief in the imminence of the return of Jesus was the uniform hope of the early church.

See part 3.

Part 3.

But it appears that Irenaeus of Lyon (120-202) was a pre-tribulationist. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John) and articulated his eschatological views in Against Heresies, Book 5. First, he referred to Enoch's translation and Elijah's being "caught up" as previews of the Rapture. "For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up." Second, Irenaeus refers to the Church's being "caught up" before the tribulation. "And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be' ( Mat 24:21). For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption." The italicized "this" in his quotation is clearly a reference to the tribulation, which he then introduces

See part 4.

Part 4.

Victorinus of Petrovium (died 304) was a bishop in modern Slovenia, martyred during Diocletian's reign. In his commentary on Revelation (6:14), he writes, "And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.] For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away."[6] Later, while explaining Revelation 15, he writes, "And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.] For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst. Therefore, Victorinus believed the Church would be raptured before the breaking of the seventh seal (and therefore, before the seven trumpet judgments and the seven bowl judgments), making him, at least, what we refer to as "pre-wrath" in his eschatology.

See part 5.

Part 5.

In a sermon entitled "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World," Syrian church father Pseudo-Ephraem (fourth to sixth century) wrote, "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. The gathering Pseudo-Ephraem mentions appears to refer to a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church.

The Middle Ages

Admittedly, the influence of Origen and Augustine was successful in turning the established church to a belief in amillenialism by around the fifth century. This view would dominate the Medieval period, with little-known exceptions. However, one exception was the Apostolic Brethren in northern Italy. This new (and thus, persecuted) ecclesiastical order eventually numbered in the thousands and evidently held a pre-tribulation Rapture position. In 1316, an anonymous treatise entitled The History of Brother Dolcino articulated some of the beliefs of the Apostolic Brethren. Their leader, Brother Dolcino, believed he and his followers would be taken to heaven and protected from the actions of the Antichrist before later descending back to earth, thus holding to a belief in a pre-tribulation Rapture.

See part 6.

Part 6.

The Archives Open

Johannes Gutenberg's movable-type printing press in the 15th century made books more widely available. With more Bibles accessible to read and study, more biblical works were printed, especially following the Protestant Reformation. Many of these works were shelved and have been gathering dust in the antiquity sections of libraries across the world for centuries. But within the last two decades, some of these works have been converted to digital (and thus, searchable) formats. One Christian historian, William Watson, has taken advantage of these available works, spending hundreds of hours reading and searching Puritan writings from the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. A simple word search for "rapt," "rapture," and "left behind" yielded at least two dozen findings, from notable authors such as Increase Mather, Cotton Mather, Philip Doddridge and John Gill. Unquestionably, some of the uses of "rapture" by these writers refer to the act of being taken up to heaven.

See part 7.

Part 7

A few examples of William Watson's findings will have to suffice, given the length of this article.

William Sherwin (1607-1687, minister at Wallington) wrote, "The Saints at the sounding of that last Trumpet at the end of the world shall be changed in a moment, at the twinkling of an eye rapt up to meet Christ in the air." He even refers to the early church fathers' agreeing with him: "This Doctrine many of the ancient Fathers acknowledged Justine Martyr Irenaeus Tertullian even Augustine sometime held it, though by the subtlety of Satan, forgeing lyes to asperse the Millenary opinion, and stirring men up to foist in offensive errours in these latter times hath again discovered it, after so many hundred years of its lying hid for the most part in the Church, to be a doctrine really embraced by his faithful people [who] will doubtless certainly know, that upon their rapture to meet Christ, they shall be perfected in glory evermore in heaven."

Boston Puritan Increase Mather (1639-1723), father of Cotton Mather, wrote, "When Christ comes, Believers shall see the King in all his Glory, and shall go with him to the Land that is very far off. Heaven is the Land that is very far off. Christ has assured believers it shall be thus, John 14.2 . He will not go back to Heaven and leave them behind him. No, they shall sit with him in Heavenly places [later] they shall come down from Heaven . They shall be with him when he comes to Judge the World.

See part 8.

Part 8

Morgan Edwards (1722-1795) helped found Rhode Island College, which eventually became Brown University. While a student at Bristol Baptist Seminary, he set forth a very clear pre-tribulation Rapture belief: "The dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (1Thes.iv,17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the father's house' (John xiv.2), and so disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints." Edwards' reference to "three years and a half" does not mean that he was a mid-tribulationalist. His writings indicate he believed the total duration of the tribulation period to be not seven years but three and a half.

There are far too many references to the Rapture in Watson's published findings to articulate here. He cites Thomas Collier, John Asgill, Robert Maton, John Archer, James Durham, Jeremiah Burroughs, Archbishop James Ussher and dozens of others. The archives have opened, and the allegation that belief in the Rapture did not appear until Darby in the 1830s simply won't hold.

See part 9.

Part 9.

Appreciating Darby's Contribution.

Although there are many references to the Rapture (some pre-tribulational) by published works before his time, we simply do not know if John Nelson Darby was influenced by these works. His writings articulating a pre-tribulation Rapture should not be minimized but fully appreciated. We are indebted to him for his enormous contribution to the subject, setting it forth in a clearer way to a wider 19th-century audience and beyond. Darby did not invent this teaching, nor did the many who taught it prior to his time. He taught it, and they taught it, because the Bible teaches it.

What some fail to take in consideration is some of the early church was being persecuted and thought they were already in the tribulation as Paul emphasized in his writings.

There also early writings that were never translated.

We can't Google search what we think the early church believed and (Shape) our doctrine accordingly and yet when asked to bring forth scripture you can't properly do so.

This type of negligence can hinder growth and it will show up in your theology.

When truly studying Gods word our theology should shape our eschatology, Not our eschatology shape our theology.

God bless.

Yes it is.

Amen. I enjoyed the reading.

Chris,

I agree that it is God who has prevented this world from becoming totally wicked. Before the flood, it seemed to be so, but there were 8 who were not. And even perhaps Noah's immediate predecessors were not totally gone over to the enemy, but not as God-oriented as Noah.

So, I do believe that is God who has restrained sin and the evil one for all of history, ensuring that there is always a witness in humanity. This does not mean that a very powerful being like Michael hasn't been purposed by God to restrain Satan for all of this time or even for the times from the church to the time the restrainer releases the one who will bring forth the Anti-Christ.

Eschatology is not a favorite topic of faith that I enjoy discussing too much. It usually leads to divisions. I only chime in because it seems that the majority of people who post are of the pre-tib rapture camp and I just wanted to support Jimbob and David since I share much of their views.

I also wish to present a viewpoint that has been the majority viewpoint in the church through the centuries. Not that that proves anything. But it is worth considering. My understanding that prior to the 1800's the pre-tribulation rapture is not held by the overwhelming majority of Christian scholars, perhaps 99.9999% believe that Jesus returns after the Tribulation, even historic premillennials.

So, when considering viewpoints that are interpretations of Scripture that is not explicitly spoken of in Scripture (which pre-trib rapture is one of those viewpoints) I think it is wise to also look at what is explicitly spoken of in Scripture (which post-trib-only return of Christ is a viewpoint that is).

With a view towards Christian history, those who believe a pre-trib rapture are a very minute percentage of Christians since Jesus was here on earth. As one who investigates things that are said both now and across the centuries and especially in the Scriptures, I am always skeptical of any ideas that is "new".

Kristi,

yes he did. I think that Chris gave the Scripture reference. Some say these may have been children of Joseph from a prior marriage. Therefore they would be older than Jesus. Others, like myself, believe that Mary and Joseph had these children together.

We just will never really know until we get to heaven.

Judygibson,

I just read this passage. Such good instructions for all of us!

Read proverb 3: 1-12

Is this what you're thinking of Kristi? Matthew 13:55,56

Hi, I've heard different answers in my life..

Did Jesus have Siblings by Joseph & Mary? If so, where in Scripture can i find it to read in KJV Bible?

Sincerely, Kristi A Wright :)

John 8:36 assures us that with the Son we are "free indeed". Freedom; in short is opposite of what the world follows as we are slaves or bondservants of Christ ( 1 Cor. 4; 7). To follow the prince of this world and all its temporary pleasures is, in reality; a dead end whereas His riches in glory for those who love Him are eternal for those saints which are already seated with Him in "heavenly places." ( Eph. 2:6).

When seeking His will and petitioning prayers; it is His Covenant promises which we can tenaciously proclaim as it is His binding contract with His people that He has made with His good pleasure. This is certainly different than just seeking those things that seem most convenient to make us more comfortable in this life. It truly is best when His life is the guide to our lives and He can be the "captain" of our salvation ( Hebrews 2:10). It is this or being shipwrecked; as it were which is a warning for those who fall away ( 1 Timothy 1:9 as a general admonition along with specific individuals in other Pauline writings).

It is helpful, therefore to have brothers more mature in the faith as "iron sharpens iron." ( Proverbs 27:17). We should also have our individual walk grow to maturity with our quiet times; prayer life and devotionals. John 6:45 shows that we shall all be taught of God; so we should learn to discern His voice from the cacaphony that rings in our ears.

As adopted sons of God ( Gal. 4:5) we are granted therefore all the blessings and substance of the inheritance. The eternal riches in Glory certainly outweigh any earthly pleasures ( 2 Cor. 4:17). We should strive therefore to remain steadfast and remain in His will. The flesh is dying daily in terms of the outward man (see previous verse 16) but the inward man is being conformed to His image. (see Romans 12:2). To deny ungodliness is true freedom ( Titus 2:12) despite our natural affections that seem to indicate the contrary.

Brother Chris,

Thank you for this information on the "last days." I agree with you that " Acts 2:17,18 is very applicable to the 'last days'."

There are two what are called "platform phrases" on which this message is built on. In Verse 17, it says "And it shall come to pass." In the Greek text it says "And it will be." And in Verse 21, it says "And it shall come to pass," and it's literally "And it will be!" Those would be the two platform verses!



So Verse 17 says and it will be in the last days. Now in Joel's prophecy ( Joel 2:28, 29), it just says afterward. Peter changed it to last days. What he is saying is that in Joel's prophecy, when he said after the judgments here, there will be another judgment day.



He meant now. So my understanding is that the theological or biblical definition of the "last days" begins here in Acts Chapter 2. From Acts Chapter 2 on, we've been in the last days for some 2,000 years.



In the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit. Twice now, he's going to say this. I'm going to pour out of my Spirit on all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophecy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

And then he says even on my servants and on my handmaidens, slaves, both male and female, I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: That is, speak the word of God!

Thanks again and God Bless!

Hi GiGi,

I had almost forgotten about Harold Camping. Listening to him on the radio I remember though, how convinced he was according to his calculations he concocted from the bible. He had a rather rudeness when someone disagreed and challenged him, and would consistently cut them off, responding with an, "EXCUSE ME!", then continue with his rambling ,and then disconnect the caller so that they couldn't finish what they had to say.

He actually spent quite a lot of money on billboards along the main S.F Bay Area highways, proclaiming the "end". The sad part, though, is that some very gullible, afraid followers made prior arrangements by ridding themselves of all their belongings, as they were convinced he was telling the truth. I now wonder how this may have affected these people in a negative way in regards to their relationship with God.

GOD IS

Blessings.

Hi David....Lemme give ya my slant on the bible the written word....The lesser light....Its only Jesus that is the light of the world... John 5 :39...Jesus said to Search the scriptures in them you think you have eternal life but it is them that testify of me....Who testifies of Jesus ?...The living word the H.G....The anointing....The gift of God....David....it was the living word Christ Jesus that had to die to initiate a New Covenant in his blood....At Calvary....Not paper and ink....David WAKE UP ...God is much more then paper and ink..And God is gonna pour out of his spirit on all flesh...like it or not... Joel 2:28 kjv....His Kingdom can only come by the LIVING WORD the contents of that book of life in the father's right hand....Behold the lamb of God taketh away the world....The bible in its self which is precious cd neva take away the sins of the world....Jesus is that Living Word much greater then the bible the lesser light..

....David Its not the bible the written word that died for the sins of the world....But the living word Jesus ...David there are zillions of bibles in this world...But this world is in gross darkness as Isaiah said....Darkness shall cover the earth and gross darkness the ppl...But we have millions of bibles....But without the H.G. the spirit we have nothin....There is no eternal without the H.G. the living word....That N.C. in his blood at Calvary.....David its not the bible that is gonna rule all nations with a rod of iron....But the manchild the H.G that spirit of truth that is gonna reprove this whole world of sin and righteousness etc...The woman giving birth to the manchild which is that spirit of truth the living word is gonna rule all nations.. Rev 12:10....Not the bible ...The O.C.

.....David when you say that the bible is God....You are in essence saying that God is paper and ink.....How sick is that....Stay away from ppl like Mr camping....Focus on the H.G. the Manchild that is gonna rule all nations..That N.C....GBU David

God Bless The Reading of His Word

Jesus was amazing. He was willing to be crucified for our sins. How many of us would be willing to do such a thing. It scares me; I would not want to be in his shoes.

Hi Burney. "Divers" is just an old spelling for 'diverse'. And as you know, 'diverse' means 'of different kinds or forms'. So in Luke 21:11, "And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences...", would mean 'there would be high intensity earthquakes in many different locations throughout the World.'