Bible Questions & Discussion PAGE 65

I was reading the Comments made about John 3 V 13 . And how so many were implying that only Jesus has been to or ascended to Heaven. One comment said it's a double edged sword and basically said you got cut . But often common sense is neglected. Ephesians 4 V.9 :: Says before Christ Ascended He first Descended during the 3 days that Man thought He was dead from the cross. And what did He do ? He took Captivity Captive. He emptied out the Paradise section in the Heart of the Earth . Everyone from Adam to the Thief on the Cross who said Remember Me , every righteous Saint of every generation. And took them where ? He ascended with Them. He took Them to the 3rd Heaven. Now when a Born again Believer dies . We don't have to go down into a gulf between the TORMENTS of Hell and Paradise in the Center of the Earth. Now We can go directly to be with Jesus. I think it's time to shout some !! If You want to lay in the ground or hang around here , then have at it. Whether by Rapture or Death I plan on being in Heaven.

Reverend Michael Ray Dorsey

Angel? Re.19:6 & 9-10:

6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude,and as the voice of many waters,and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying,Alleluia:for the Lord GOD Omnipotent reigneth.

9And he saith unto me, Write,Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb...

10And I fell at his feet to worship him.And he said unto me,See thou do it not:I am thy fellowservant,and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus:worship GOD:for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Angel? Numbers 9-31:

And GOD came unto Balaam,and said,What men are these with thee?

10Balaam said unto GOD, Balak the son of Zippor,king of Moab, hath sent unto me,saying,

11Behold,there is a people come out of Egypt,which covers the face of the earth:come now,curse me them;peradventure I shall be able to overcome them,and drive them out.

12And GOD said unto Balaam,You shalt not go with them;You shalt not curse the people:for they are blessed.

13And Balaam rose up in the morning,and said unto the princes of Balak,Get you into your land: the Lord refuses to give me leave to go with you.

15And Balak sent yet again princes more honourable than they.

16And they came to Balaam,and said:Thus says Balak the son of Zippor,Let nothing,I pray thee,hinder thee from coming unto me:

17I will promote thee unto very great honour,and I will do whatsoever you say unto me:come therefore,I pray thee,curse me this people.

18And Balaam said unto the servants of Balak,If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold,I cannot go beyond the word of the Lord my GOD,to do less or more.

22And GOD's anger was kindled because he went:and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary against him...

26The angel of the Lord went further,and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.

31Then the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam,and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way,and his Sword drawn in his hand:..

"Richard H Priday"

What my Lord JESUS said is that ' they which shall be accounted WORTHY to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels (Example: Genesis 19:1-4. Take a look); and are the children of GOD, being the children of the resurrection.

And Paul Apostle revealed: Philippians 3:20-21:

20 For our conversation is in heaven(heaven? Ephesians 1:3-8. Take a look. Are you in heaven or not? Or you don't know?); from whence also WE LOOK for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21 Who shall CHANGE OUR VILE BOVY(this is not a magic, this is a process, it is(will be) worked) that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the WORKING whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.

And Paul said more: 1 Corinthians 15:24-27 and 51-55:

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the Kingdom to GOD( Revelation 11:15-18), even the Father; when he shall have PUT DOWN ALL RULE AND ALL AUTHORITY and POWER.

25 For JESUS must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all BE CHANGED, (not by magic, but a process)

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (in the last seven years of the world of Devil- Revelation 11:15 and 18.Take a look), at the last Trump ( 1Thessalonians 4:16 combined with Daniel 12:1-3.Take a look):for the Trumpet shall sound( Revelation 11:15) and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Hello Richard

The Ortodox believe in the post trib rapture. They don't use the term "the rapture of the saints" but always talk about "the 2nd presence of Christ". Also they believe that the millenium is a figurative period of time which actually started when Jesus ascended to Heaven and will finish at the White Throne Judgement. All events described in that millenium are figurative for what is occuring from Jesus' time till the very end.

About St Gregory the Theologian I don't know what he tought. But from what I read in your comment I tend to think that probably what he had in mind is what Paul tells us in Rom 819-23, "19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body"

I have to point out that the grk doesn't say "creature" but "creation" in all the above verses. And all interpretations I have read so far is that it means the whole creation, everything that has been created, the whole world, land, living beings, everything.

Which leaves me to think that the creation which is now in decay/corruption/wear will be libarated at that time, probably meaning that everything will be in a glorified stable condition in the new earth we will be living on. And I believe that "the blood and flesh" is for people, not for the rest of material creation.

About "deification" I don't want to say any opinion, I am very sceptical about it, This is actually something it is never discussed in my church.

God Bless.

St. Gregory the Theologian says that we are fully involved with the material creation by virtue of our physical existence, and that the material created reality is deeply involved with us. If we move to the direction of deification, our human nature, progressing towards God, will somehow carry the created material world with it. Quoted from article from website Orthodox Church of America (oca.org on orthodoxy section/the-orthodox-faith)

This seems to be contradictory to the statement that flesh and blood can't enter the Kingdom of God but I suppose it could fit in if they actually believed in a Rapture event of the living (which I doubt they do unless a Post Millennial event).

We can understand what it meant by double portion that Elisha received by keeping his mentor in sights while he ascended. One portion was the spirit of Christ with which Elijah served God; God had set him three tasks which Elisha completed from where Elijah had left off; the second portion was on his own right as the double for the Son. It pleased the Father that in Jesus should all his fulness dwell. So Elisha and Elijah's service was made perfect in the Son. So there are no minor or major prophets as some Bible Scholars seem to divide God's servants. All are absorbed in the single measure of Jesus Christ as the Man component in the Fellowship of God with Man.

Carleton

Thank you for your reply.

I started my post quoting Esther 5:1 and making some important highlights, and I wrote: "1Now it came to pass on the third day(see John 2:19),that Esther put on her royal apparel(see Revelation19:7-8)and stood in the inner court of the king's house over against the king's house(ref. Revelation 11:2),and the king sat upon his royal throne in the royal house,over against the gate of the house.

The main point of my post is the comparison with the true Church of the Lord JESUS-the body of JESUS Christ- the current Temple of GOD in this current Covenant, so, we must discern that we are in the beginning of the first century of the 3rd Day (2024 AD), that is in the turn exactly from the sixth to the seventh and last GOD's Day.

Well, JESUS promised to rise up the Temple in the 3rd Day-the Temple of GOD-the Church of the Lord- John 2:19. And exactly from now on, from this same wonderful moment, "let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife must made herself ready". Revelation 19:8 says propheticaly: And to her -to the Church of the Lord- His body- was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. The Word is GOD, self-executing, understand?

Furthermore, JESUS is already sat on His Throne, as it is described in Revelation chapters 4 and 5, and GOD the Father is already in His rest as He planned to do since the beginning, it in the exactly and current seventh Day. And he sais: Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. These are the true sayings of GOD.

The Word is GOD, self-executing

Be careful and get ready - Matthew 25:6-12 will LTERALLY fulfill itself.

Why thank you Richard, I appreciate your timely response... And your view on this subject! I pray you have a Blessed day!!

"Elijah and Elisha" (2 of 2)

In the previous post "Single Measurement" the quote "Saints redeemed from the earth are interchangeable because new earth knows no John or Andrew but is under the generic name an angel." explains this phenomenon. God has decreed the day for his Son and it pleased him that all his fulness should in him dwell. Who was Elijah but a double for the Son? As a Tishbite he shall show certain characteristics before his death. Elijah the Tishbite came from Gilead. Before giving charge to Elisha he goes through Gilgal, Bethel, Jericho and Jordan, signifying from his cradle to 'crossing the Jordan' euphemism for death. Elisha sticks close to him all the while. As his associate he was his double through the word of God and ministry for the other. By principle of Association all are co-heirs with Christ the firstborn of all creation." But Jesus is associated with Nazareth but as the Son he reveals his own signature to the body of evidence as the Word become flesh. On the cross, "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."( Luke 23:46)

This every one who is called has his own characteristics, of his place and time but in terms of the will of the Father he had adopted them all without exception on the basis each one has become part of the single measure which is his Son, the Man component.

Elijah and Elisha (1 of 2)

Elisha doubles for Elijah his mentor who was given three tasks (1 Ki.19:15-16) which are in a flux and Elisha completes them. In terms of the works they were bonded into the service of God, the older setting the events in motion while the younger finishes the job as done. This is a kangaroo Association as we see the Gospel of God becomes Gospel of Christ in the Son of man.

(See entry under D-Day)

The Spirit sets the two prophets in the narrative to give us an insight into the manner God created the heaven and the earth in the beginning, which are accomplished by the Son in the end times. Time delineating the beginning and ending is reconstituted Time so the Day of creation (Ge.2:4) are not to be confused by earth time. Consequently double portion of Elijah's spirit going to Elisha must be seen analogous to God the Spirit becoming the Spirit of Christ. The same Spirit but shades of meaning based on Truth changing focus. Thus we consider God as the Father of mercies as far as holiness is considered but when we speak of salvation offered through the Son we know it as grace and truth. Consequently worshipping God in spirit in truth the emphasis is on obedience the Son set as an example.

Spirit of Christ speaks of the word that has gone forth from from God the Father (Is.55:11). It has its glory when Prophet Elijah raises the dead son of the widow of Zarephath (1 Ki.17) and Elisha in his day restores to life the son of the woman of Shunem. (2 Ki.4). Both prophets by faith prove what God had begun and shall be fulfilled in his Son. Jesus in his day restores life of the widow's son in Nain. All these are done in different times and place. The power of the word that the Spirit of Christ signifies is Alpha and Omega aspect of Jesus Christ.

Elijah the Tishbite came from Gilead. Before giving charge to Elisha he goes through Gilgal, Bethel, Jericho and Jordan, signifying from his cradle to 'crossing the Jordan' euphemism for death.

Thank YOU LORD for YOUR word that gives us YOUR perfect will in our motives and practices as we await YOUR return to earth.

May we be be prayerful for our leadership in DC and all the local authority YOU have ordained and placed in offices. Romans 13:1-3

LORD, bless YOUR saints to be powerful witnesses unto the lost and hard hearted.

GOD to shine HIS face on the works of our hands, and our prayers as we worship and praise CHRIST JESUS daily.

January 30, 2024

I suppose a question thread isn't kosher with a sequel. Anyway; there are many scriptures that can be used to point out each part of the TULIP acronym; for instance T-Total Depravity We could quote Jeremiah 17:9; O-Unconditional Election ( Ephesians 1:4); L-Limited Atonement ( John 10:26-27); I-Irresistable Grace ( Acts 9:3-6 the "Damascus Road" experience) and finally P-Perseverance of the Saints ( Romans 8:30).

Many of these themes are interchangeable with the verses quoted. The terminology isn't the greatest; as people can indeed grieve the Spirit as scripture indicates. I believe limited atonement is also the hardest thing to prove; I would say that "Effectual grace" is a much better term.

I wrote what I did in the first posting on purpose as many tend to have a sort of pride about which Reformer is their favorite or obsess on the subject making a doctrine be above the author and finisher of our faith Christ Himself. We can't fit our theological premise neatly with all scriptures in human understanding. I take; for example the politically incorrect stance that free will doesn't intimidate God with His predestination plans. There are distinct advantages to understanding these doctrines however.

1. It explains why those in our families and others we are close to and hear the Gospel for years never become believers.

2. It shows how God draws His elect from before a confession of faith (preserves our lives until coming to salvation) for believers.

3. It allows us to "test ourselves to see if we are in the faith" ( 2 Cor. 13:5) so that we can indeed claim His promises as something we actually possess because of a saving faith rather than "decisional regeneration" a term where people make a confession but their hearts are not in it.

I mentioned on an old posting how a small group split because God grants repentance ( 2 Tim. 2:25; etal). Some didn't want to preach the need to repent; although God grants the desire we must bear fruit and change our ways

Somewhere on this site a year or two ago I have some detailed analysis of this subject; specifically I went through the book of John as well in terms of Predestination.

I would say that book has enough clear evidence of the calling being only for those God has selected to have Christ reveal Himself to them that not much more needs to be said. The book of Romans has a lot of stuff as well which I have done studies of in the past but it is throughout the Bible. The "TULIP" acronym was never expounded on by Calvin per se; and it appears that even he may have had some issues near the end of his life about limited atonement; probably the stickiest point in the whole bunch.

First off as to Calvin himself; his attitudes in killing Silvanus for not being a Trinitarian (and also for NOT supporting infant baptism) certainly makes us call into question his faith as it states in first John "he who hates his brother is a murderer" and doesn't have eternal lilfe. For the record I am against infant baptism ironically a carry on from Catholicism that the Orthodox Presbyterian church today still holds onto with some other denominations. Martin Luthor was a heavy drinker and Hitler himself used some of his rantings against the Jews to his advantage in gaining church support of his cause (before they were persecuted themselves).

Despite these less than ideal character issues the concepts brought up in the "5 Points" have sufficient scriptural warrant for the most part in my opinion. Again; I have argued with some of my "brethren" as you put it that someone can believe all 5 points and not be saved (why they'd want to is another issue). They didn't like me for saying that; but neither did people believe my former pastor was saved since he considered himself to be a "4 and a half point Calvanist" with his issues with limited atonement.

Other issues are the terminology of each tenent. Maybe I'll include that in part two.

In looking at the Orthodox church it seems from what I am seeing it is only the Eastern Orthodox (however defined) that believes this; while others believe Christ always existed. Or perhaps it is the idea that somehow the Spirit and Christ existed within God somehow and was separated?

I looked at that term "deified" or something to that affect. I would define the new body as glorified but not God-that is disturbing.

All the power we will have in our glorified body it is due to God's provision; and all the authority in which we rule and reign with Christ. The other weird thing is how we are supposedly in our material bodies somehow tied in some mysterious way to the creation like it is still happening or something if I get that right.

As for me; I didn't understand how my ex wife was able to marry someone in that church if they knew she was divorced from someone. I thought they were against that.

Ronald, I am sorry I called you Richard. GBU

Hello Ronald

Thanks for your reply to my comment.

I will keep it short since we have had those discussions before and we know what each one of us believe.

I noticed that you believe that when a human person receives the fullness of the Spirit somehow they aquire divine characteristics as if though they are Gods themselves. ie omnipresence, speak all languages, hear millions of people simultaneously. Well there are some churches that actually believe that we will become sort of Gods. The Ortodox church is one of those.

Also Jema (why is she gone? I actually liked very much her encouraging comments,I will miss them) in her reply to me said that we will become something sort of Gods when we will be dressed up with our spiritual body.

Although there isn't any revelation from God about the state we will be in Heaven, I still find it very hard to believe that. If that was true then even angels would had been sort of Gods. Well I don't know Richard so I am going to put my hand on my mouth and keep silent. GBU

I would love to hear different views on Calvinism from the Brethren. Thank you...

I hope things improve soon for you . I know from reading the Bible that God expects us to take care of each other and not to turn our eyes away when we see some one in need of help . I hope that God gives you all that you need even if people don't .

It does help . I thought that myself about the skins that God made for them . If He made them then do you think that He killed the lamb ? This all seems to point toward the future when God allows His Son to be killed to cover our sins . The Jews had to take the lamb into their homes a bit like a pet I think , they might have grown attached to it if there were children in the house . They might have been sad to kill it . So many things happen more than once in the Bible but just in slightly different ways .

Re.21:17 "Single Measurement" (2 of 2)

With regards to the tags we shall examine the significance of 5. 'The twelve apostles of the Lamb as well as every saint redeemed from the earth are considered as one with the Lamb. In the OT the Law of Moses stipulated, "If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep."(Ex.22:1). The rationale is that beast is man's livelihood. So man and ox is counted as one. The same rule applies to those who have conformed to the death of Christ in order to win Christ. "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;" (Ph.3:10)

In the divine Will the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world was an emblem. The Lamb of God opened the way for many sons of God to be counted as one with the Lamb, so the throne of God and of the Lamb establish the rationale for Jubilee year on earth as well as in heaven. The gospel in multiples of 12 created the scale which instruct how we should walk on the earth. Without abiding in Christ and doing the perfect will of God, Many are called but few are chosen. Be not deceived by diverse doctrine of men.

"And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal."(21:16)

Re.21:17 "Single measurement" (1 of 2)

"And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel."

Firstly it is the angel who is a fellow servant who is measuring.It is faith which is signified by the golden reed. "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb./ And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof." (vv.14-15). The 12 apostles of the Lamb are the same on earth were associates of Jesus Christ. This is New Jerusalem, the throne of which is now the Throne of God and of the Lamb.(Re.22:1)

John was in the spirit so he is being given a preview of things which must shortly come to pass, while the guid, an angel is nimself in the world of the Spirit. "And I John saw these things, and heard them.... I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things./Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book." (22:8-9). Saints redeemed from the earth are interchangeable because new earth knows no John or Andrew but is under the generic name an angel.

Jesus Christ is the Man component in the Fellowship of God with Man. So the single yardstick the angel uses is according to the measure of a man, that is of the angel. The heresy of individualism, American brand of bold initiatives upon which megachurches and the corporate model of Evangelicalism relies is not from God. The rule of God applies. "And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating."(Ex.16:18). Abiding in Christ what is gathered in the world of Spirit follows the same rule.

The measuring reed is faith and the Gospel is one, within which 'the lame takes the prey.'

Suzy, I will keep your Mom in my prayers.

Dan.12:11-12 "New Jerusalem" (2 of 2)

Recap: The Spirit placed the tag 3, which is a Command number so the Son in heaven is Three. The Word become flesh is Four. 1260 refers to the earthly ministry of Jesus.

Daniel's vision in Ch.12 gives us two sets of numbers 1260+30 +1290 days. 3X10 determined outpouring of the Holy Spirit to the point of rapture, which concerns the first fruits, the church. Multiples of 10 gives us the abiding life in Christ so every saint redeemed from the earth is led by the Spirit. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."Ro.8:14)

second set 1335 is made up 1260+75

Here we have 50 that refers to the *Jubilie.

What does the Jubilee (5x10) signify? The land belongs to God and the glory of the land is in harmony with the glory of the Son as heir to all things. With the jubilee year the land is to be left fallow. This rest signified rest that is promised to saints redeemed from earth. Before Jubilee year isproclaimed we have an interval which is given here. "And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."(Re.20:8)

*What does the Jubilee (5x10) signify? The land belongs to God and the glory of the land is in harmony with the glory of the Son as heir to all things. With the jubilee year the land is to be left fallow. This rest signified rest that is promised to saints redeemed from earth.

The earth abides forever and New Jerusalem comes up free from any claim from with regards to their inheritance. New Jerusalem is for the heirs of promise.

Sarah, So sorry to hear your Mom is sick. I will be happy to pray for her.

Dear heavenly Father, we come tonight in the name of Jesus asking for You to bring swift healing for Sarah's dear Mom. Cause her to begin to feel better right now and take away the pain and symptoms that are bothering her so. We ask that You do a great healing work in her body and that she will receive comfort, peace and rest while her body heals and is strengthened by Your amazing power, grace, and . Amen

Hi Richard, Praying for this possible new living arrangement.

Page 3.

Your second question: "If Jesus was preexisting, an immortal being, God the son. How can an immortal being die?" There are varying beliefs about Jesus' position in Heaven prior to His incarnation. I rather simply accept John 1:1-18, John 14:10,11, John 16:27,28, 1 John 5:7, that Jesus came forth from God. Did He come out as a Divine Being in the presence of God, to be made a human for the sake of death, or did God take His Own Word & give Him flesh for this very purpose? We don't have a problem of God sending out His Spirit & the Spirit's indwelling in every believer (can He even be dissected?), but to send His Word out, clothe Him in a body, unnerves many.

"How can an immortal being die? How can God be tempted...How can God die?" God is Spirit - He is Immortal - He can never die. No one, having a spirit from God, can die - the body will perish, but who can destroy the spirit which cannot be touched by age or man's devices? But if the immortal is given a body, as Jesus received, or even as we also have to house our spirits, then the body will die but the spirit lives on. Can God take on flesh? A mystery no human can fully fathom, but truly "a body hast thou prepared me" ( Hebrews 10:5-7, taken from Psalm 40:6-8). So Jesus could be tempted & could die whilst in the body, and so in His complete identification with sinful men in need of salvation, Philippians 2:6-8 reminds us:

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." "thought it not robbery" = Jesus didn't grasp onto/retain His equality with God, but 'emptied Himself' ('ekenosen'), laying aside His Glory, to become a Man, obedient to death that which was the Father's Plan.

Page 2.

'arche' = 'something that was in the beginning: a first principle; a substance or primal element; an actuating principle (as a cause). If we take the first meaning of 'something having a beginning', then your suggestion might be valid. If, as 'an actuating principal - a causation', then we read the verse as, 'These things saith the Amen.the One to cause or initiate all of God's Creation'; that Jesus Himself wasn't God's first Creation, but the cause or reason for creation, i.e. the 'He Who initiated the beginning of creation', being the 'Reason for creation's beginning'.

'proto-tokos' = 'first-to bring forth'. Here, in Colossians 1:15,18, Jesus is seen as both the "firstborn of every creature and the firstborn from the dead". I see 'firstborn' here, not with a biological view, but in Christ's position; or else, He was certainly not the 'firstborn from the dead', as some have been brought to life from the dead prior to His Resurrection. So, it's best to read these verses as Jesus' station & rank that remains, as always, above every human being & all of creation, whether in their creation, birth or death. And as a side-note, we must be aware that the JW conveniently changes 'prototokos' to 'protokitises': from 'first to bring forth' to 'first to be created': which of course supports the idea that Jesus was a created Being.

Jesse

You are welcome.

GOD bless

Oseas,

Thank you for your post to brother Carleton and myself, but I am not sure that I am understanding what you are saying here? I may have to read through this a few more times. Some things take me a little longer to figure out, sorry!

There were many Jewish people in the Church of Rome,and the Apostle Paul in his universal epistle to the Church of Rome, he wrote: Romans 2:5-16:

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the Day of WRATH and revelation of the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT of GOD;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, INDIGNATION and WRATH,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew FIRST, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew FIRST, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with GOD

12 For as many as have sinned WITHOUT Law(the Gentiles)shall also perish without Law: and as many as have sinned in the Law(the Jews) shall be Judged by the Law;

13 (For not the hearers of the Law are just before GOD, but the doers of the Law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the Law, do by nature the things contained in the Law, these, having not the Law, are a Law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the Law written in their hearts(Hallelujah!!), their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another-)

16 In the Day when GOD shall Judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (The Day arrived-Woe of the inhabiters of the Earth)

The Word is GOD, self-executing