Bible Questions & Discussion PAGE 67

"I have another comment about the KJV . I think the reason that MANY ascribe an almost mythical status"

A true believer does not believe the bible is mythical, which means made up, they love it in all it's truth and glory. It could have been penned by anyone under God's anointing, but He decided to use king James for the very reasons you give.

"It seems quite a reasonable arguement to me , but it's one that I'm staying out of as of now :)."

You speak your opinion and give what you believe is a reasonable argument but then tell people you won't discuss what they have to say with them. That's your right, of course, but it seems a little unfair to others here because, after all, this is a discussion forum.



DISCUSSION

Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation.

A formal discourse on a topic; an exposition.

"I learned a long time ago that the chances of me ever being able to change anyone's opinion about anything are almost nil , so I don't often try . MATTHEW 28: 16-20

I hope and pray all goes well with you and God blesses you mightily and I will honor your wishes. God Bless :)

Adam,

I do not have a goal, and I have never tried to demean anyone on this site. I feel this conversation is causing emotions that should not be and I am sorry, I never wanted that and to reply to you would be wrong. Out of love and respect, I will end this discussion.

God bless,

RLW

Powerful.

Great point. That must have been utterly shocking, terrifying, and maybe humiliating for Saul / Paul to hear Jesus like that.

I'm sure you know this went off topic of my original question, but am happy to discuss as long as this is genuine and respectful.

I did some searching online and couldn't yet find any church that believes what you said. A website for Orthodox Christians also said you don't have to believe in trinity to be saved, so I question the validity of this belief.

Is the goal of this is to demean Christians who believe what the Bible says about God in John 1:1, 1 John 5:7? Believing what the Bible says is not a doctrine, but denying it or twisting it can be considered a manmade doctrine.

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8 KJV

The Alpha and Omega is the Lord Jesus.

"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."

Revelation 21:6-7

This says the Alpha and Omega "will be his God". Do you agree?

Does this not plainly say that the Lord Jesus is God?

If Jesus was not God, then why would the Bible say so many times that He IS God, like in John 1:1, 1 Timothy 3:16, Isaiah 9:6, and His own name Immanuel means "God with us". One would think if God wrote a Bible to convince us that Him dying for us was not Him but someone else and to tell us that salvation is from someone else and not through Him, then why would it say so many times Jesus is God. People called Him God, His name was God, He has the power of God, and the Bible says He is God. But I'm supposed to believe that He isn't though?

We all have a past while God saw future in us. Growing under the rod and thumb of a stern father I know what it is having to give account for my days. So I bristled whenever my woman would want to know. Luckily it never showed up. I thought to myself, "I am a fool to reply to love as I did to my father, in defensive mode". God made me see difference so the stern attitude I learned now to apply where it require, So I would rather please God. Both ways I am content with love of being a husband and a son who ought to give glory to our Father which art in heaven. It is all how we look at things outside of ourselves. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

Hi Carleton,

Thank you, hope you and family are doing well. That is interesting, have not heard it put that way. I will look on this in study.

God bless,

RLW

Hey Adam,

Thank you; The statement of faith of many churches has the Trinity doctrine as a foundational belief of their faith, and you cannot join if you do not agree. I can only say what I have been told and how I was treated in some churches the denominations do not matter. The Orthodox view says if you do not believe the Trinity, you are not saved and are not a Christian. Some bible discussion sites before you go on them you must endorse the Nicene Creed. That is why I love this site and the people on it. Let's leave it at that.

God bless,

RLW

Good morning all!

"Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?" 2 Corinthians 11:29 KJV

Paul's meditations in the churches of God.

I do admire your self control and determination :) , I wish I had some of those traits . Thanks for your great effort and interesting posts , keep it up please :) .

:) , I do wonder what motivates people to ask a question that they already think they know the answer to , is it just to illicit different responses in order to ' debate ' or to berate ? Silence is golden in those circumstances I think ;) .

Hi RLW,

I see you didn't respond to the question, so I'll put it here again. It's important to know where you get this idea from.

In the last 50 years or more I've attended many different Christian church denominations and I've never once heard of anyone saying you must believe in a trinity to be saved.

Are you sure that is what someone said?

Ronald, can you give an example of what specific Christian church denomination and location you believe said this or if it was just one person who said this to you?

Oh thank you Ronald ! Once again you have explained my thoughts and put them on here :) , are you a mind reader ? No , you're not , you are a Bible reader :) :) :) .

"Trinity" (amended)

Please read the first paragraph as follows:

Fellowship of God with Man is inshrined in heaven as a memorial. In Re.5:6 we have a visual transcription of the will of God and it shall never change. There must a body, is it not? The body of four and twenty elders is one. The body has its glory ordained by God."But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body." (1 Co.15:38-41). Consequently we see the four beasts and they are reflecting the glory of God and setting his Son as the firstborn of all creation: it gives us one beast having the face of a man. God created man 'in our image', and we have the last Adam represented. According to the will of God 'Let them have dominion,' refers to Adam and three beasts representing His creation.

"Trinity"

Fellowship of God with Man is inshrined in heaven as a memorial. In Re.5:6 we have a visual transcription of the will of God and it shall never change. There must a body, is it not? The body of four and twenty elders is one. There is also another body of the four beasts and they are reflecting the glory of God and setting his Son as the firstborn of all creation gives us one beast having the face of a man. God created man 'in our image', and we have the last Adam represented. According to the will of God 'Let them have dominion,' refers to Adam and three beasts representing His creation.

Secondly theSpirit aspect: "And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."(Re.4:5). Thirdly we have the Lamb who 'prevailed to open the book' with seven seals, and he was found worthy to set judgement in motion. As an overcomer he represents the soul, or as head of the church. Body Spirit and Soul constitute Trinity as a memorial in heaven.

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them (Ge.1:27)" defines Trinity:The Word made flesh was continuation of the Spirit of Christ with which he could be deemed the Spiritual Rock (1 Co.10:4). For this reason he could say," Jesus said to the Jews, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.(John8:58-NKJV)."

Symbolism of the rock, water and the slain Lamb are sustained no matter where, whether in heaven or on earth the word is established eternally.

When we speak of human likeness his body spirit and soul gives Trinity a template for every believer. In creating man in 'our likeness' body spirit and soul of man correspond with Trinity.

By principle of Similitude heaven and earth are set on a single standard. The Son upholds all things 'by the word of his power' similarly he reconciles all men to his Father in him.

(See under J-Jesus his deity)

"The Book of Job"

It is set in a series of parables. In the parables of Job one might think of the Socratic dialogue as nearest, and it is search for truth as its core value. The Bible clearly declares no man may question God and wrest a meaning by force or by arguments. "Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?(Is.45:9). We find Abraham interceding with God with regards to the imminent judgment over Sodom. He asks, "And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?" Ge.18:17-33).

Truth is the only basis that 'still small voice' as in the case of Elijah, plays a crucial role in the parables of Job. Job uses a parable, which in the parlance of the Spirit is to instruct us the depths and riches we have in the eternal God.

For example what is the confidence of Job? "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:(19:25)" How do we reconcile this idea 'For as the heavens are higher than the earth' (Is.55:8-9) with our thoughts ? Truth in our heart is the only medium of instruction. The Spirit has set the Book of Job with this in mind as a series of parables.

Parables are clothed with allusions to the natural world so these are direct confrontation of two worlds of the flesh and the Spirit.

Parables are to be understood as introduction 'How To Do the Will of My Father in some easy lessons' could well be the by-line to the whole body of Parables. Key to understand him is to do the will of God the Father," If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself ( John 7:17)."

Good evening Ronald! One possible meditation for the Trinity belief to be tied to salvation is the parts of the Godhead are not equal in authority. The door to our salvation was chosen by the Father to be found in the Son and confirmed afterwards by the Spirit.

Apologies to all. In my first paragraph I had not corrected my initial wording, 'of the Nature of God', when I substituted it here with 'God's Nature' but omitted removing the article preceding it. That's a nasty error & I need to go slower in my revisions.

That's a great point & Scripture ( Acts 9:5) brother S. Spencer & thanks for it. That is indeed a very telling encounter that Saul had. He asked, Who art thou, Lord? Saul was confused. He didn't refer to that Voice as God nor any other divine being, but used 'Kyrie', a title given in this instance, of 'respect or reverence to someone of distinction'. So, we see Saul, on his way to massacre these Christians & probably fuming through his teeth all through his journey there, suddenly falling to his knees in respect, hearing this voice from above calling him by name and asking why he was being persecuted. We can hardly imagine the thoughts & conflicts that Saul must have been going through. Not the least of which, 'there is only one God in Heaven, so who is this speaking?'

And so the blinders on Saul fell off & his heart was made pliable. How? By hearing the Word of God & having a life-changing experience with the God He actually despised, by rejecting His Son. And so we can understand Paul's yearning in anguished prayer, "my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." ( Romans 10:1-3). He longed for his people to have what he had received directly from the Risen Christ. And so it must be for all who would turn to Jesus for salvation: the Word must cut deep into their hearts & a mighty revelation received, that makes sin absolutely detestable & the Love of God & His Salvation absolutely craved for & treasured. Every blessing brother & thank you for your posts - always read & well received.

Hi Adam,

It is good to hear we are understanding each other better as brothers in Christ. I will in the future give my understanding of John 1:1. The truth is what is important regardless of what we have been taught.



Have you ever asked the question is salvation is dependent on the belief in the Trinity?

God bless,

RLW

Brother Giannis. I note that your question is directed to those holding a non-trinitarian position, but thought to clarify that these folk would willingly accept that at the miraculous birth of Jesus, His impeccable & sinless life, & His Father's acceptance of Him & ascension to His right Hand, Jesus gained a complete Divine character & position with the Father. Therefore, regarding Jesus' Presence & Ministry among us by His Spirit denotes His present divinity, assuming all of God's Nature within Him. And this understanding I feel can be accepted by all of us: that of Christ being Divine & sending forth His Spirit, i.e. the Spirit of God to accomplish His Will.

So the claim to Christ's Divinity is not an issue after His Birth, Life & Ministry, rather, the issue is even before His Birth to lay down His Life. I consider John 15:13, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down HIS life for his friends" and 1 John 3:16, "Hereby perceive we the love (of God), because he laid down HIS life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." (Noting, that "of God" is in italics, thus not in the original). And from these verses, I ask, 'are we seeing simply Christ's Love for all that caused Him to lay down His Life in sacrifice, or are we also seeing God's Love for all in bringing forth a Son for the purpose of providing the one & only Sacrifice?'

It is true, that Jesus' love for sinners was His prime motivation to give up His Life in redemption; but if it was also God's Love for all people that caused Him to provide a sacrifice, can we measure or understand that Love, by Him just creating a suitable sacrifice or by giving up His Own Life for us? An earthly perspective: is real love & salvation seen by someone calling out to another to help a child caught in a rip, or should not that the man himself go out & risk his life to save? It's easy to get someone else, but true love is by doing the job yourself. And God did that in the Incarnation.

Hi RLW,

Thanks for the clarification. If we already discussed this months or years ago I just don't remember, so thank you for explaining. I have a better idea of what you meant now. I'm glad you're a Christian.

My comment didn't have much to do with baptism but your comment did and it seems you were making a distinction between Matthew 28:19 and examples in the Bible where people were baptized. I would have to review to know what if anything was mentioned as being said.

I don't believe people have to believe in a Godhead to be saved. I think you were thinking that was a requirement. I don't believe this is a salvation issue, but just trying to understand the Bible and arrive at the truth. I believe that is the goal here.

You wrote: "Now in many churches, a person must believe in the Trinity for salvation, and if they do not confess the Trinity, they are not a Christian."

In the last 50 years or more I've attended many different Christian church denominations and I've never once heard of anyone saying you must believe in a trinity to be saved. Are you sure that is what someone said? This not what typical Christians believe. Can you give an example of what specific Christian church denomination and location or if it was just one person who said this?

I once went to a Calvary Chapel where the guy gave a sermon that said if you don't vote for Obama then you're not a Christian. But I knew enough to know that guy was wacko and his cult beliefs did not represent others in the calvary chapel or in Christianity. It's a common logical fallacy to generalize an entire group of people for one individuals actions or beliefs. What's ironic is Obama is a muslim and pro-abortion, which is a very anti-Christian belief.

But as for not believing Jesus is God. If John 1:1 said and the Word was NOT God, then I would find this belief more credible, but it says the opposite. Jesus is the Word: Revelation 19:13. He's also the I AM: John 8:58, Exodus 3:14.

Hi Adam,

I understand your passion and I believe you may have misunderstood parts of my post; I am sorry. Your first question is yes, I am a follower of Jesus. Jesus answered the scribe and said, Mark 12: 29-30 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And yes, I do, but am I perfect, NO.

I do not belong to any denomination; I have attended many denominations but Catholic and I am in my 70s and there is not a church close to me now that I feel comfortable going to. John 1:1 I will say my understanding is different and too long to explain in this reply maybe another thread.

What I meant about Matthew 28:19 is in this verse Jesus told them to go baptizing people in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. People use this to support the Trinity doctrine but nowhere in the New Testament is anyone baptized in the name of the three, people were only baptized in the name of Jesus not that there was no baptizing in the New Testament, but they were only baptized in the name of Jesus.

As you listed Acts 4:10-12 only by the name of Jesus and "none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. And that name is who they baptized people in the New Testament not of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Now in many churches, a person must believe in the Trinity for salvation, and if they do not confess the Trinity, they are not a Christian. Can you show me where that was said or was taught anywhere in the New Testament?

I am sorry we do not agree on this, and I hope this helps you understand my last post, and may we be guided by the Holy Spirit in our study for the truth, we are one body.

God bless,

RLW

That's a very interesting point Adam,

" thou shalt commit adultery instead of thou shalt not. They caught it and destroyed all copies they could and I doubt anyone acted on this and lead them to sin."

If someone acted on this and use this error for a excuse it wouldn't fly with all the other scriptures stating what Adultery is.

The word of God straightens itself out.

I heard J Vernon mcgee say the word of God is like a lion in a cage.

He don't need anyone to be there to guard him.

Just open the cage and he will take care of himself.

God bless.

The Trinity: Introduction to basic concepts

It is said that those of the Oneness Pentacostal camp never refer to themselves as "modalists"; and in reality the term "Trinity" although the best description we have for God being represented by three different entities as it were along with any other term has its limitations. As with any other issue; when there is error involved there is always a deeper reason as well as associated other spurious elements of doctrine involved. I am writing believing in; more or less the Trinitarian approach and using scriptures to support this concept which I will attempt to do in further postings; provided that incoming comments are something the Lord leads me to respond to and that it is edifying to involve myself is such an undertaking.

The first thing I feel obligated to respond to is the charge by those such as Jino Jennings that those of my persuasion believe in multiple gods or 3 different dieties. That by no means is what I and others believe. I will also give positive affirmation where praise is due; the focus on holiness which is mandated by those in that camp and knowledge of scripture; particularly in the Old Testament helps build knowledge. He and others in that type of church also tend to have elders read scriptures along with their commentary and also preach from time to time. Such involvement would be helpful in any church to some extent as scripturally the gift of elder is basically synonymous with a pastor and there should be shared responsibilities in a church rather than the imbalance we sometimes see when a head pastor tries to fly solo. There is; however a tendancy among that denomination of shouting and appearing to "lord it over" people; shouting and other "signs" such as tongues and uncontrollable behaviors that are often part of a typical service. An emphasis on the necessity of speaking in tongues to be saved was a challenge given to me over 30 years ago which goes against 1 Corinthians 12:30

Hi RLW,

I don't remember who believes what in this forum, but I feel a duty to defend Jesus and defend the truth, so I will share God's word. I feel that's the least I can do as a Christ follower. Do you consider yourself a Christ follower?

If you don't believe Jesus is God then I wonder if you believe Christians are in violation of the 1st of the 10 commandments? Because if you don't think Jesus is God or divine then you might think putting Jesus #1 in their life is bad? If you can explain your religious doctrine or denomination more that would be helpful.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV

It is like Matthew 28:19

I'd like to ask about your comment, "the baptizing in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit but nowhere do we see it in the New Testament all were baptized in the name of Jesus and only in the name of Jesus are we saved."

I don't totally understand this comment yet. Are you saying you don't see baptizing isn't in the new testament? Because you replied with a verse that is in the new testament, so you seemed to have refuted your own comment?

And the latter half of your comment is "...and only in the name of Jesus are we saved."

But the Bible says precisely that in Acts 4:12. It says:

"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:10-12 KJV

It says the name of Jesus Christ is through whom we are saved. It says it plain as day. Did I understand your comment correctly?

Also it flat out says Jesus is God in John 1:1 "Word was God" and it says Jesus is the Word in at least a couple other verses

Hi Giannis,

Good to hear from you, very good question. First, the Roman Church elevated Mary to the queen of heaven the same title as Tammuz's mother we see Israel worshiping. They say she ascended to heaven and much more. If we look at Acts we see Paul said that David is still in his tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:29 and Acts 2:34. Many believe after Jesus was resurrected saints were also resurrected and are in heaven and many pray to them. My understanding is no one has been resurrected all are in the grave asleep in death.

When God through His Spirit the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead He placed Jesus above all that is in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, Philippians 2:9-11. God placed Jesus on His right hand on the throne of God, therefore giving Jesus the power of the throne.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Jesus also said John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

God the Father and Jesus will dwell in us by the Spirit, not in temples made by hands like Jesus said in John 4:21-23 and we see in 1 Corinthians 3:16. We see in 1 John 4:12-16 it is by the Spirit that Jesus who is sitting on the right side of God on the throne of God as the only mediator between us and God has been given the power of the throne until all enemies are under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28.

My humble understanding it is by the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit that Jesus can see and hear all. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and His God is our God the Father as Jesus said to Mary John 20:17.

God bless,

RLW

Thanks Jema. I will reply tomorrow, it's too late here. Have a blessed night.

Hi Adam,

Thank you, you are correct I believe in one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ as most of the greetings in the epistles Ephesians 6:23 1 Thessalonians 1:1 and more, and nowhere is this doctrine taught in the New Testament that we must believe for salvation.

It is like Matthew 28:19 the baptizing in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit but nowhere do we see it in the New Testament all were baptized in the name of Jesus and only in the name of Jesus are we saved. My study of 1 John 5:7 is that it was added from the Latin Vulgate and was not in the original text, but that can be debated.

I understand I am in the minority and have discussed this before. We can find Scripture to fit a doctrine, but can we find Scripture where the doctrine was taught? I have not found where the Trinity doctrine is taught. Like Genesis 1:26 there are many beings in heaven and the word us does not say God was speaking to Jesus, that is an assumption.

Thank you again for discussing this in a loving and respectful manor, this subject is deep and as long as we have love for each other, and truth is what we are in search of.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Giannis , I'm not one for big debates so I would like to keep this brief if that's ok :) . I do not ever pray to Jesus or anyone other than God , my Heavenly Father , the Holy One of Israel . I pray to Him through Jesus Christ my Sinless High Priest who is now in Heaven . As for your question about how Jesus can be in the midst of Christians all over the world , I personally believe that 1st Corinthians Ch 15 can answer that for you . I hope that I've answered your questions satisfactorily , I will let Paul explain it , he's better at that sort of thing than I am :) .